To All That Think Immediate Troop Withdrawal Would Be A Good Idea...

Cosmo

We ain't going nowhere... not for at least 10 to 20 years.
Here's how I see it and why.
1. Command And Control.
Who has Command and Control over the combat forces over there... US or Them?
Answer: US. And for good reason. I, personally, would never want our soldiers under the command of a foriegn nation... would you?
What's the alternative? Command and Control handed over to Iraqis? Which Iraqis? The ones from the deck of cards? The ones who rise up from the ranks of the recruits we've trainned? How long is THAT going to take? Who do we put in charge over there?

2. Logistics Support.
Who handles all of the logistic suport for military operations over there?
Again... we do. Without all of the support resources, none of the combat operations can go on. This may be easier to turn over to Iraqis... but, again... who?

3. Air Support.
Need a sniper taken out? Cal in an air strike. Need Night Stalkers on patrol to take out fuckers trying to set I.E.D.s on roads? Where are the Iraqis going to get this support?
Again... US. Are we going to take out air support out when we leave... or leave our aircraft over ther for them to operate and maintain? My guess... we're taking our shit with us when we leave.

4. Medical Support.
Who is running the Combat Surgical Hospitals over there?
Again... you guessed it. The reason why we are seeing fewer deaths is because of our rapid med-evac capabilities and forward operations of our surgical facilities. Even C-17s can be converted into full blown airborne trauma centers to fly the worst infured to Ramstein A.F.B. what happens when we pull our medical support?
...
So, all of those things combined... Command and Control, Logistics Support, Air Support and Medical Support... are reasons why we will be there forever. We may be able to rotate out combat troops as more and more Iraqis are trainned (remember, in the Fal of 2003, Bush/Rumsfeld claimed 350,000 Iraqis were trainned... what happened to them?). but what about the others? And would you want Iraqi soldiers put in charge of looking out for the well being of our soldiers in those administrative and support roles? Or would you feel better if it were our guys watching their backs?
It's not that we don't want to leave... but, we've fucked up so bad in Iraq... we CAN'T leave.

smg9779

binauralonthecape wrote:

i hear about democrats promising their supporters that the first thing they will do in office is get the troops out of iraq, how does this train of thought even make sense, and why do any of you agree with it??

Does any American honestly feel safer after toppling Saddam? I don't. I actually am a lot more fearful when I travel abroad. Let's face it, we are dealing with a demography that we do not understand. No country in the Mid East is even close to being a secular state, and with that being the case, the chances of getting sane, rational people to run a government in Iraq is fantasy. We need to pull out now and save some troops lives. At our current pace, there is no end or stability in sight.

slightofjeff

boxwine_in_hell wrote:

It was pretty damn stable when it was ruled by a dictator and the secret police was jailing or killing any dissidents. So instead of the populace being afraid of the state, they are now afraid of the insurgents. I don't see how Iraq is any more stable or better off than it was before we arrived.

This is another argument entirely. The argument here isn't whether or not we should have been here in the first place. It's moot. We're there.

The argument is: What to do now?

And I don't think throwing Iraq to the wolves defenseless is the answer. But that's just me.

slightofjeff

inmytree wrote:

let me expand on my point, this occupation has been going on since 2003...it's now 2008...as Jlew pointed out, it's time...it's time to make a change in course and strategy.

We did change course. We sent MORE troops. And it seems to have worked.

Point being: There are other ways to "change course" than just saying, "Fuck it. We quit. Iraq's fucked. We broke it. Tough luck, guys."

I would argue that we are MORALLY OBLIGATED to stay there for as long as it's fucked.

tybird

Cosmo wrote:

We ain't going nowhere... not for at least 10 to 20 years.
Here's how I see it and why.
1. Command And Control.
Who has Command and Control over the combat forces over there... US or Them?
Answer: US. And for good reason. I, personally, would never want our soldiers under the command of a foriegn nation... would you?
What's the alternative? Command and Control handed over to Iraqis? Which Iraqis? The ones from the deck of cards? The ones who rise up from the ranks of the recruits we've trainned? How long is THAT going to take? Who do we put in charge over there?

2. Logistics Support.
Who handles all of the logistic suport for military operations over there?
Again... we do. Without all of the support resources, none of the combat operations can go on. This may be easier to turn over to Iraqis... but, again... who?

3. Air Support.
Need a sniper taken out? Cal in an air strike. Need Night Stalkers on patrol to take out fuckers trying to set I.E.D.s on roads? Where are the Iraqis going to get this support?
Again... US. Are we going to take out air support out when we leave... or leave our aircraft over ther for them to operate and maintain? My guess... we're taking our shit with us when we leave.

4. Medical Support.
Who is running the Combat Surgical Hospitals over there?
Again... you guessed it. The reason why we are seeing fewer deaths is because of our rapid med-evac capabilities and forward operations of our surgical facilities. Even C-17s can be converted into full blown airborne trauma centers to fly the worst infured to Ramstein A.F.B. what happens when we pull our medical support?
...
So, all of those things combined... Command and Control, Logistics Support, Air Support and Medical Support... are reasons why we will be there forever. We may be able to rotate out combat troops as more and more Iraqis are trainned (remember, in the Fal of 2003, Bush/Rumsfeld claimed 350,000 Iraqis were trainned... what happened to them?). but what about the others? And would you want Iraqi soldiers put in charge of looking out for the well being of our soldiers in those administrative and support roles? Or would you feel better if it were our guys watching their backs?
It's not that we don't want to leave... but, we've fucked up so bad in Iraq... we CAN'T leave.

Well done....but, we do expect good work from you.

RolandTD20Kdrummer

The plan is not to go anywhere... it's to stay.

That's the plan. War is going to become a business run enterprise...actually it already is.

beware the MIC...well it's here... It's now part of corporate America, and based on 1000 lies repeated to the world over a million times.

callen

binauralonthecape wrote:

ok i realize our iraq strategy was completely flawed, isnt that why rumsfeld is gone? but back to my intial question...how does pulling out of iraq now make any sense? for the us and for iraq?

you have an excellent question...as fked up as it was to go in....we can't just pull all troops jan 08. It will take time and there needs to be transition to iraqi army.....but US soldiers should get out of patrols...fast. Obama & Hilliary understand this....now Karls & Rummy's plan to pass agreement for long term stay has to fail....we need to get out as soon as possible. Show Muslims respect...they deserve it.

callen

RolandTD20Kdrummer wrote:

The plan is not to go anywhere... it's to stay.

That's the plan. War is going to become a business run enterprise...actually it already is.

beware the MIC...well it's here... It's now part of corporate America, and based on 1000 lies repeated to the world over a million times.

Always been about business

binauralonthecape

and i guess most everyone here forgot that we, the united states, are in a war on terror...its a constant struggle to keep our country safe and not let another 9/11 happen, which our president has succeeded, like it or not, and if we dont continue to be on the offensive, then we will open ourselves up to another attack by being defensive...our military defends and dies for our freedom everyday, dont ever forget it.

binauralonthecape

callen wrote:

you have an excellent question...as fked up as it was to go in....we can't just pull all troops jan 08. It will take time and there needs to be transition to iraqi army.....but US soldiers should get out of patrols...fast. Obama & Hilliary understand this....now Karls & Rummy's plan to pass agreement for long term stay has to fail....we need to get out as soon as possible. Show Muslims respect...they deserve it.

...honestly, i dont think muslims deserve respect, they are extremely dangerous as their continous suicide bombings show...

binauralonthecape

.....and one more thing to rile up your skulls full of mush....alot of people here think we are there just for oil, consider the amazing potential of alaska and all the oil there and the potential of offshore drilling and what we would find...we could become alot more energy effecient, and not rely on forgein oil with jacked up prices...but NO, all the enviormentalists wont allow drilling offshore, or in alaska...ask yourself, would you rather our country at war for oil, or would you rather see us drill in our own country for a lot cheaper??

MasterFramer

binauralonthecape wrote:

.....and one more thing to rile up your skulls full of mush....alot of people here think we are there just for oil, consider the amazing potential of alaska and all the oil there and the potential of offshore drilling and what we would find...we could become alot more energy effecient, and not rely on forgein oil with jacked up prices...but NO, all the enviormentalists wont allow drilling offshore, or in alaska...ask yourself, would you rather our country at war for oil, or would you rather see us drill in our own country for a lot cheaper??

Fuck oil... its going to run out eventually. We should be spending time and money on developing new energy technologies, which would result with more jobs which is always a good thing. But no we fight a bullshit war so people can get rich.

gimmesometruth27

binauralonthecape wrote:

and i guess most everyone here forgot that we, the united states, are in a war on terror...its a constant struggle to keep our country safe and not let another 9/11 happen, which our president has succeeded, like it or not, and if we dont continue to be on the offensive, then we will open ourselves up to another attack by being defensive...our military defends and dies for our freedom everyday, dont ever forget it.

thanks for the info giuliani.

again, as i have said a thousand times....a war on terror is a WAR AGAINST A TACTIC. TERROR IS THE TACTIC THAT THEY USE! YOU CAN NOT FIGHT A WAR AGAINST A TACTIC!! as evidenced by our overwhelming success in this war. that would be like them fighting a "War on airstrikes". it can't be won.

how long ago was the "mission accomplished" party on the boat? i want to hear from you, if the mission is accomplished, what are we still doing over there, and what is the new mission we are trying to accomplish?

also, please answer me how my freedom is threatened and is in constant need of defending. i would like to hear it explained to me.

Rhinocerous Surprise

binauralonthecape wrote:

...honestly, i dont think muslims deserve respect, they are extremely dangerous as their continous suicide bombings show...

Wow.





Just...
Wow.

Commy

binauralonthecape wrote:

i hear about democrats promising their supporters that the first thing they will do in office is get the troops out of iraq, how does this train of thought even make sense, and why do any of you agree with it??

You invade a country, you meet resistance after unleashing everythign short of atomic weapons, you have literally no international support and very little local support within the US, and you wonder why withdrawal is a bad idea? Wtf.

binauralonthecape

gimmesometruth27 wrote:

thanks for the info giuliani.

again, as i have said a thousand times....a war on terror is a WAR AGAINST A TACTIC. TERROR IS THE TACTIC THAT THEY USE! YOU CAN NOT FIGHT A WAR AGAINST A TACTIC!! as evidenced by our overwhelming success in this war. that would be like them fighting a "War on airstrikes". it can't be won.

how long ago was the "mission accomplished" party on the boat? i want to hear from you, if the mission is accomplished, what are we still doing over there, and what is the new mission we are trying to accomplish?

also, please answer me how my freedom is threatened and is in constant need of defending. i would like to hear it explained to me.

yes, your right, we are in a war against islamic fascism, not terror, and our freedoms are being defended every day by our service men and women over seas, we have been on the offensive, which is alot better than being on the defensive, do you not think we should have retaliated to the events of 9/11? wasnt Saddamn Hussien a lingering threat to us for years?? and once we get bin laden, are you going to bitch about us in afghanistan??

binauralonthecape

MasterFramer wrote:

Fuck oil... its going to run out eventually. We should be spending time and money on developing new energy technologies, which would result with more jobs which is always a good thing. But no we fight a bullshit war so people can get rich.

last i checked we are developing new technologies, but until we can market it in a way thats feasable for companies to make a profit, then its not going to happen...in case we've forgotten, we live in a capitalistic society here in the usa...hybrid cars are the first step, you can say fuck oil, but its the most important natural resource on earth at the moment and it does alot more than help run your car, check back into reality, if guarantee if this situation was turned around, if a democrat was the president during the past two terms, all of the media would be very sympathetic about president gores rebuilding of iraq, and how great it is that he's trying his darndest to make it a sweet little democracy....

g under p

jlew24asu wrote:

its been long enough. I think Iraq is close (or as close as its going to get) to being able to support itself militarily. we need to get combat troops out and change our strategy. we need to have personal there that will train and support Iraqi troops. I supprted the "stay the course" and troop increase policy and it seems to be working. this war has been going on much too long.

but I understand where you are coming from. we dont need to abandon the place like the left is suggesting, but we do need a change in strategy

We will never abandon this country, we have and we're building permanent military bases there at least 4 of them. In the future we may not keep the troop count that we have now and it matters none to this current administration or any future administrations.

It sucks either way.

Peace

gimmesometruth27

binauralonthecape wrote:

yes, your right, we are in a war against islamic fascism, not terror, and our freedoms are being defended every day by our service men and women over seas, we have been on the offensive, which is alot better than being on the defensive, do you not think we should have retaliated to the events of 9/11? wasnt Saddamn Hussien a lingering threat to us for years?? and once we get bin laden, are you going to bitch about us in afghanistan??

again, how is my freedom threatened and in need of constant defending? please answer this because i'd like to know. no islamic fascist is going to cause me to lose my freedoms. but my government has been chipping away at them ever so slowly since 9/11. whatever our troops are doing over there, it has nothing to do with my freedom, so stop using that 7th grade argument.

yes i think we should have retaliated for 9/11, but we should have gone after the people that attacked us (most of them were saudi) and focused on afghanistan instead taking the detour of freedom giving and nation building in iraq, which was not a threat to us at any time. read a frickin book or newspaper. its all there....war of choice and no WMDS, end of story.

ps. we are NEVER going to get bin laden. and if we did, would it really matter because there are many people lining up to take his place....

jeffbr

gimmesometruth27 wrote:

again, how is my freedom threatened and in need of constant defending? please answer this because i'd like to know. no islamic fascist is going to cause me to lose my freedoms. but my government has been chipping away at them ever so slowly since 9/11. whatever our troops are doing over there, it has nothing to do with my freedom, so stop using that 7th grade argument.

yes i think we should have retaliated for 9/11, but we should have gone after the people that attacked us (most of them were saudi) and focused on afghanistan instead taking the detour of freedom giving and nation building in iraq, which was not a threat to us at any time. read a frickin book or newspaper. its all there....war of choice and no WMDS, end of story.

ps. we are NEVER going to get bin laden. and if we did, would it really matter because there are many people lining up to take his place....

I know we don't often agree, but I completely agree with everything you said here. Nicely stated.