To All That Think Immediate Troop Withdrawal Would Be A Good Idea...
binauralonthecape
Posts: 257
i hear about democrats promising their supporters that the first thing they will do in office is get the troops out of iraq, how does this train of thought even make sense, and why do any of you agree with it??
8.29.00-4.29.03-4.30.03-5.2.03-7.2.03-7.3.03-7.8.03-7.9.03-7.11.03-9.28.04-9.29.04-10.1.04- 10.2.04-10.3.04-5.12.06-5.24.06-5.25.06
...i know all the rules but the rules do not know me, guaranteed...
...i know all the rules but the rules do not know me, guaranteed...
Post edited by Unknown User on
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As opposed to what?
Leaving troops there forever?
Is this like the "you broke it, you buy it" approach to foreign policy?
Don't buy the NWO hype man ...
we're staying for oil that we'd be smarter to leave and buy on the free market, without forcible protection.
As far as regional stability goes, our presence is not going to help in the long run.
If Iraq truly wants the freedom we so "graciously" provided them, then Iraqis are going to have to stp up and fight for it.
:(
If I opened it now would you not understand?
We should not have been there in the first place. The US presence there has increased terrorism in the world, not to mention the billions of dollars wasted. And what do we have to show for it? NOTHING but death and a country lost for ages.
Where is Osama been forgotten BTW ???
~Ralph Waldo Emerson~
The Tie-Dye Lady is HOT!!!
From day 1 this war was completely mismanaged. Every single word of advice that was offered from experts and professionals on how this war should be carried out and what short term objectives needed to be met in order to achieve long term goals has been ignored. As if this administrations ineptitude was not enough the Iraqi government has failed to meet the majority of it's goals and objectives and they seem little interested in making the sacrifices necessary to do so. Now why should US soldiers continue to loose lives and limbs for a people who seem extremely reluctant to put aside tribal/cultural/religious differences for what amounts to the better good of the country. This is a country whose government decided that while the entire country was slipping into chaos it would take a month long recess. Enough troops have died in a war based on lies and deception. I am a firm believer that since we created the mess over there that we should at the very least help clean it up, but when the very people of that country are not willing to aid us in the process then we need to acknowledge that we attempted to make up for our mistake but the task proved to big, pack up and go home.
5 US soldiers killed in northern Iraq
By KIM GAMEL, Associated Press Writer 34 minutes ago
Five American soldiers were killed Monday in a complex attack in the northern city of Mosul, described as one of al-Qaida in Iraq's last strongholds, just days after a house explosion and suicide attack killed as many as 60 people there.
Maj. Peggy Kageleiry, a U.S. military spokeswoman in northern Iraq, said the soldiers came under small arms fire and were hit by a roadside bomb in the city, which is the capital of Ninevah province.
Iraqi police in the provincial capital of Mosul reported that clashes had erupted in a middle-class Sunni neighbhorhood believed to be an insurgent stronghold.
An officer, speaking on condition of anonymity because he was not authorized to release the information, said three civilians were wounded and helicopters had bombarded buildings in the southeastern Sumar neighborhood, which has seen frequent attacks on U.S. and Iraqi forces that have led to a series of raids.
On Sunday, Iraqi army reinforcements moved into positions near Mosul, 225 miles northwest of Baghdad, ahead of a planned offensive announced by Iraqi Prime Minister Nouri al-Maliki.
U.S. commanders describe Mosul as the last major urban center with a significant al-Qaida presence since the terror network has been driven from its strongholds in the capital and Anbar province.
The U.S. military has said Iraqi security forces will take the lead in Mosul — a major test of Washington's plan to, at an undetermined date, shrink the American force and leave it as backup for Iraqi security forces.
The Iraqi Red Crescent Organization, meanwhile, gave a higher death toll than Iraqi officials from Wednesday's devastating house explosion. The U.S. military said the cause of the blast has yet to be determined, although Iraqi officials were quick to blame al-Qaida.
Bolstering that claim, a suicide attacker killed a top police official and two other officers as they toured the wreckage the next day.
The relief organization said more than 60 people were killed and 280 wounded based on estimates from relatives who buried victims without officially registering them. Iraqi officials in Mosul maintain that nearly 40 were killed and more than 200 wounded.
The U.S.-led security crackdown, along with a Sunni revolt against al-Qaida in Iraq and a cease-fire order by radical Shiite cleric Muqtada al-Sadr have been credited with a dramatic drop in attacks in the capital.
However, influential members of al-Sadr's movement said Monday they have urged the anti-U.S. Shiite cleric to follow through with threats not to extend the cease-fire when it expires next month, a move that could jeopardize the recent security gains.
The Sadrists are angry over the insistence of U.S. and Iraqi forces on continuing to hunt down so-called rogue fighters who ignored the six-month order, which was issued in August. Al-Sadr's followers claim this is a pretext to crack down on their movement.
The maverick cleric announced earlier this month that he would not renew the order unless the Iraqi government purges "criminal gangs" operating within security forces he claims are targeting his followers.
That was a reference to rival Shiite militiamen from the Badr Brigade who have infiltrated security forces participating in the ongoing crackdown against breakaway militia cells the U.S. has said were linked to Iran.
The political commission of al-Sadr's movement and some lawmakers and senior officials said they were urging him to follow through with his threat, pointing to recent raids against the movement in the southern Shiite cities of Diwaniyah, Basra and Karbala.
"We presented a historic opportunity when we froze the (Mahdi) army," Nasser al-Rubaie, leader of the Sadrists in parliament, told reporters Monday. "But the step was negatively capitalized on."
The group planned to send the message to al-Sadr's main office in the holy city of Najaf, two Sadrist legislators and a member of the political commission told The Associated Press. They spoke on condition of anonymity because of fears of retribution.
"We have demanded that the government purge these security organs and release our detainees," one official said. "We have not found any positive response so far from the government, so why then should we continue freezing the (Mahdi Army)?"
Al-Sadr's political commission is made up of the movement's most powerful officials whose opinion often reflects that of the reclusive cleric, although the officials stressed that he retains sole decision-making authority over the militia.
Underscoring the complaints, the military announced the arrest Monday of a man accused of gathering intelligence, using computers and forging documents as an associate of militia leaders involved in attacks on U.S.-led forces.
U.S. troops also detained 18 al-Qaida-linked militants in two days of operations ending Monday north of Baghdad.
Mahdi Army militiamen fought U.S. troops for much of 2004, and al-Sadr has tirelessly called for the withdrawal of U.S. forces from Iraq.
___
...i know all the rules but the rules do not know me, guaranteed...
how does staying make sense...?
Rumsfeld, and the many others, got out because they did so many corrupt criminal acts that if they didn't they would be jailed for life and/or executed for war crimes. It's far (far) from fixed by having Rumsfeld and a few others out.
It really all depends on how much raping you think the US economy can handle, and where the tipping point of no return is.
The US is in a situation that intends on slicing up the entire middle east. The plans have been written about already, in involves a blueprint for the next century, whereby the authors are at the helm in their full glory so to speak
Bit off more than it could chew on this one though. It's a bit off break the cycle, come clean, or be doomed by it.
and reveling in it's loyalty. It's made by forming coalitions
over specific principles, goals, and policies.
http://i36.tinypic.com/66j31x.jpg
(\__/)
( o.O)
(")_(")
its been long enough. I think Iraq is close (or as close as its going to get) to being able to support itself militarily. we need to get combat troops out and change our strategy. we need to have personal there that will train and support Iraqi troops. I supprted the "stay the course" and troop increase policy and it seems to be working. this war has been going on much too long.
but I understand where you are coming from. we dont need to abandon the place like the left is suggesting, but we do need a change in strategy
It makes complete sense for us to leave today. Not tomorrow, but today, right now. There is a saying in investing and gambling "Don't chase bad money with good." The same applies here. We've put enough of our troops in harm's way for a dubious cause. The Iraq war was monumentally stupid from its inception. The argument that leaving now will cause instability is stupid - our arrival caused instability as well. The argument that if we leave others will come in is stupid - others came in as a result of the fragmented situation we created.
It is time to cut our losses and get out. Wish the Iraqis luck and be on our way.
There's also the ridiculous claim that they will "follow us home". Another gem meant to motivate the Rep. base.
However the evil f-ers that like killing impoverished thrid world people for profit would crap all over it...then go back to killing for profit and all the other sick things they do....
and reveling in it's loyalty. It's made by forming coalitions
over specific principles, goals, and policies.
http://i36.tinypic.com/66j31x.jpg
(\__/)
( o.O)
(")_(")
I actually haven't heard one of the viable Democrats -- ie Hillary or Obama -- promise this. It's not going to happen.
Anyone voting for either of these two expecting troops to be home the day after inauguration is going to be sorely, sorely disappointed.
for the least they could possibly do
I don't think anyone is for staying indefinitely. I think a gradual draw down of troops is what makes sense. And, from what I remember reading, these plans are already being drawn up now, by this administration.
Just completely abandoning the place the day after a new president takes office would be very, very bad indeed.
It's not about allowing al qaeda to "claim" victory ... it's about allowing al qaeda to actually "have" a victory. If Iraq, on its own, isn't able to keep Al Qaeda from establishing a base there, where they can train and recruit unfettered, then we're right back to where we were on 9/10/01. Except instead of Afghanistan, Al Qaeda would have simply moved to Iraq.
And yes, I know Al Qaeda had no ties to Iraq BEFORE the invasion. But they are there now. This is indisputable.
for the least they could possibly do
Uncle Sam needs your help again
he's got himself in a terrible jam
way down yonder in Viet Nam so
put down your books and pick up a gun we're
gonna have a whole lotta fun
(CHORUS)
And it's one, two, three, what are we fighting for
don't ask me I don't give a damn, next stop is Viet Nam
And it's five, six, seven, open up the pearly gates
ain't no time to wonder why, whoopee we're all gonna die
Come on generals, let's move fast
your big chance has come at last
now you can go out and get those reds
cos the only good commie is the one that's dead and
you know that peace can only be won when we've
blown 'em all to kingdom come
Come on wall street don't be slow
why man this war is a go-go
there's plenty good money to be made by
supplying the army with the tools of its trade
let's hope and pray that if they drop the bomb,
they drop it on the Viet Cong
Come on mothers throughout the land
pack your boys off to Viet Nam
come on fathers don't hesitate
send your sons off before it's too late
and you can be the first ones on your block
to have your boy come home in a box
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you don't know this...no one does...at best, you're guessing...
personally, I don't think we need to "guess" any more..
Which is why this entire war has been fucked up from day one. No one knows what the fuck to do.....especially the government. you think they are "educated" on what to do?? Obviously not.
in addition, how many times have you, not meaning "YOU", been in a situation where you werent sure what to do? But you made your decision, right or wrong, and it was understood once you made your decision, everything else will fall into place; Maybe not in 1 day, maybe not in 1 month, but eventually it all turns out the way it was supposed to.
it is obvious by the governments "research" that we are only good at guessing anyway. Hind-sight is 20-20.
Toledo, Ohio (September 22, 1996), East Troy, Wisconsin (June 26, 1998), Noblesville, Indiana (August 17, 1998), Noblesville, Indiana (August 18, 2000), Cincinnati, Ohio (August 20, 2000), Columbus, Ohio (August 21, 2000), Nashville, Tennessee (April 18, 2003), Champaign, Illinois (April 23, 2003), Noblesville, Indiana (June 22, 2003), Chicago, Illinois (May 16, 2006), Chicago, Illinois (August 05, 2007), West Palm Beach, Florida (June 11, 2008), Tampa, Florida (June 12, 2008), Columbus, OH (May 06, 2010), Noblesville, Indiana (May 07, 2010), Wrigley Field (July 19, 2013), US Bank Arena (October 01, 2014), Lexington (April 26, 2016), Chicago Night 2 (August 20, 2018), Boston Night 1 (September 02, 2018), Nashville (September 16, 2022), St. Louis (September 18, 2022)
you're right. as soon as we leave, it's going to be shiny, happy people holding hands. Wow. I'd like some of whatever you are on.
Truth is, Iraq did not start to exhibit any signs of stabilization until we sent MORE troops, not less. All the post-invasion problems that happened in Iraq were the product of TOO FEW troops. It stands to reason that a too-rapid reduction in troops would cause an increase in violence to the pre-surge levels.
So, no, it's not a guess that the region would completely destabilize if we were to remove every single troop at one immediately. It is a fact, based on past history. It's like saying, "You don't know the sun is going to rise in the East in the morning. It might rise in the West this time. You're just guessing."
for the least they could possibly do
the other foot in the gutter
sweet smell that they adore
I think I'd rather smother
-The Replacements-
The government has known for TEN YEARS (at LEAST) how fucked up Iraq would be.
LISTEN TO CHEYNEY ...
you think he just got old and forgot all that?
FUCK NO!
PEOPLE NEED TO WAKE UP AND REALIZE THE GOVERNMENT IS NOT STUPID! IT IS JUST DISHONEST WITH YOU, AND HAS ITS OWN AGENDA ..and that agenda is usualy NOT in line with the one the average American is looking at.
This is EXACTLY what the neo-cons\NWO\Elitists want ... they have the quagmyre that they so acccurately predicted ... and now they get to say,"ooh ooh. we have to stay. we MUST stay!" ... so they get to stay ... and all their buddies at Halliburton et.al. get rich (not to MENTION the bankers who get all the "interest" on all the money we are printing to pay those fuckers!) ... and they get global oil supply "control" (though it is a sham) ... and they get all kinds of excuses to yank this country around ...
wake up for gods sake.
THEY ARENT DUMB!
THEY ARE FUCKING LIARS, THIEFS, AND TRAITORS!
If I opened it now would you not understand?
This is a silly argument. for one, nobody is talking about a permanent "occupation." For two, we are already IN Iraq, and we are part of the reason it became unstable in the first place.
You can't just say, "Hey, sorry we fucked up your country and attracted Al Qaeda here. Please try your best to do something about them. And sorry about that civil war thing, too. If you're ever in New York, drop us a line."
You hear people bitch and moan about how we need to help Darfur, or Kenya, or the Congo. How about helping a place that we actually had a hand in breaking in the first place? It's like burning down one neighbors house and, instead of helping him rebuild, you help your other neighbor across the street put in a pool.
for the least they could possibly do
The Pentagon has just reported it has troops ready and waiting to move into Pakistan btw...
and reveling in it's loyalty. It's made by forming coalitions
over specific principles, goals, and policies.
http://i36.tinypic.com/66j31x.jpg
(\__/)
( o.O)
(")_(")
I dont think anyone is saying the government doesnt follow their own agenda.
but that's the problem. It's THEIR agenda; doesnt matter what we say.
And I am all for "planning", but plan something that is beneficial, not damming to the world.
Toledo, Ohio (September 22, 1996), East Troy, Wisconsin (June 26, 1998), Noblesville, Indiana (August 17, 1998), Noblesville, Indiana (August 18, 2000), Cincinnati, Ohio (August 20, 2000), Columbus, Ohio (August 21, 2000), Nashville, Tennessee (April 18, 2003), Champaign, Illinois (April 23, 2003), Noblesville, Indiana (June 22, 2003), Chicago, Illinois (May 16, 2006), Chicago, Illinois (August 05, 2007), West Palm Beach, Florida (June 11, 2008), Tampa, Florida (June 12, 2008), Columbus, OH (May 06, 2010), Noblesville, Indiana (May 07, 2010), Wrigley Field (July 19, 2013), US Bank Arena (October 01, 2014), Lexington (April 26, 2016), Chicago Night 2 (August 20, 2018), Boston Night 1 (September 02, 2018), Nashville (September 16, 2022), St. Louis (September 18, 2022)
I'm unsure where I said Iraq would be shiny and/or happy...
your response is full of assumption...sadly you are unwilling to see that...
the bottom line is this: we will not truly know what will happen until it really happens...you can guess all day long, but you don't truly know...
and by the way, the truth is the violence slowed after Iran help broker deals...which happen to coincide with the surge...
Oh trust me, they knew EXACTLY what they were doing in Iraq. To the effing letter....loong long ago...years before 9/11
That place didn't stand a chance. It was all pre-meditated and calculated destruction, and chaos at every turn to encourage the worst possible case scenario and outcome.
One gigantic make work project. The MIC's big middle east debut.
This is all going to go on and continue to escalate until every last drop of oil has been sucked from the ground, and then some.
By then we'll all be gone and there will be 51'st 52'nd and 53'rd states over there...
This is the agenda.
and reveling in it's loyalty. It's made by forming coalitions
over specific principles, goals, and policies.
http://i36.tinypic.com/66j31x.jpg
(\__/)
( o.O)
(")_(")
Perfect. Let's just do everything ass backwards. We all know that we invaded the wrong country in the first place. If we weren't fucking around with Iraq and had just went ahead and occupied Afghanistan, this bullshit would be a lot less of a cluster fuck.
the other foot in the gutter
sweet smell that they adore
I think I'd rather smother
-The Replacements-
So the answer to all of life's problems is to do ... nothing. Since you never know whether your actions will make the situation better or worse. It's all a big guess.
Hell, you're just guessing that bringing the troops home will make them safer. What if we bring them home, and then the United States is hit by a giant asteroid, and they all die? They would have been safer in Iraq.
I just don't understand your point. We can't know 100 percent what will happen to Iraq without U.S. troops there, so we just should withdraw them all immediately and see? Yay. Fun. I don't understand your rationale. Sorry.
for the least they could possibly do
"Since you never know whether your actions will make the situation better or worse. It's all a big guess."
So I might as well just continue to do what is miserable and wrong because "leaving" may not work out.
What a bullshit way of running a life/world......if it's fucked up; change it or leave it. If you cant change it; leave it. We obviously cant change Iraq.
Toledo, Ohio (September 22, 1996), East Troy, Wisconsin (June 26, 1998), Noblesville, Indiana (August 17, 1998), Noblesville, Indiana (August 18, 2000), Cincinnati, Ohio (August 20, 2000), Columbus, Ohio (August 21, 2000), Nashville, Tennessee (April 18, 2003), Champaign, Illinois (April 23, 2003), Noblesville, Indiana (June 22, 2003), Chicago, Illinois (May 16, 2006), Chicago, Illinois (August 05, 2007), West Palm Beach, Florida (June 11, 2008), Tampa, Florida (June 12, 2008), Columbus, OH (May 06, 2010), Noblesville, Indiana (May 07, 2010), Wrigley Field (July 19, 2013), US Bank Arena (October 01, 2014), Lexington (April 26, 2016), Chicago Night 2 (August 20, 2018), Boston Night 1 (September 02, 2018), Nashville (September 16, 2022), St. Louis (September 18, 2022)
We know with 100% certainty that if we pull our troops from Iraq we will have no more US Troop casualties in Iraq caused by insurgents. That's good enough for me.
You just contradicted yourself. We don't know 100 percent what will happen to Iraq with U.S. troops there either. So by your logic, it doesn't really matter one way or another. And by the way the probability is infinately higher that some Iraq asshole is going to kill them over an asteroid. I'm willing to bet that any military personel will take their chances with the asteroid.
the other foot in the gutter
sweet smell that they adore
I think I'd rather smother
-The Replacements-
this is it right here ... there is a reason why they are building huge bases in iraq ... america plans to be there for a looooooong time ...