So what you are saying is since my wife and I havent got along for 5 years, I should just stick it out because leaving, spur of the moment, wont make my happy in the long run?
"Since you never know whether your actions will make the situation better or worse. It's all a big guess."
So I might as well just continue to do what is miserable and wrong because "leaving" may not work out.
What a bullshit way of running a life/world......if it's fucked up; change it or leave it. If you cant change it; leave it. We obviously cant change Iraq.
I totally hear what you're saying, but what if you were getting paid a few million a year (or more) to stay with your wife and just pretend to be working it all out?
See what I'm saying? Some people are getting that kind of money to pretend to be working things out over there.
Progress is not made by everyone joining some new fad,
and reveling in it's loyalty. It's made by forming coalitions
over specific principles, goals, and policies.
You just contradicted yourself. We don't know 100 percent what will happen to Iraq with U.S. troops there either. So by your logic, it doesn't really matter one way or another. And by the way the probability is infinately higher that some Iraq asshole is going to kill them over an asteroid. I'm willing to bet that any military personel will take their chances with the asteroid.
I think you missed the sarcasim.
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I totally hear what you're saying, but what if you were getting paid a few million a year (or more) to stay with your wife and just pretend to be working it all out?
See what I'm saying? Some people are getting that kind of money to pretend to be working things out over there.
Oh, dude, dont mistaken me. And i totally understand what you are saying....they've got a freakin gold mine over there, and they are taking full-advantage of it. We all understand that.
Problem is, the janitor wants to go home and "you're" still shooting hoops demanding to stay.
Toledo, Ohio (September 22, 1996), East Troy, Wisconsin (June 26, 1998), Noblesville, Indiana (August 17, 1998), Noblesville, Indiana (August 18, 2000), Cincinnati, Ohio (August 20, 2000), Columbus, Ohio (August 21, 2000), Nashville, Tennessee (April 18, 2003), Champaign, Illinois (April 23, 2003), Noblesville, Indiana (June 22, 2003), Chicago, Illinois (May 16, 2006), Chicago, Illinois (August 05, 2007), West Palm Beach, Florida (June 11, 2008), Tampa, Florida (June 12, 2008), Columbus, OH (May 06, 2010), Noblesville, Indiana (May 07, 2010), Wrigley Field (July 19, 2013), US Bank Arena (October 01, 2014), Lexington (April 26, 2016), Chicago Night 2 (August 20, 2018), Boston Night 1 (September 02, 2018), Nashville (September 16, 2022), St. Louis (September 18, 2022)
How predictable. Every thread has to be overrun by team tin hat. It doesn't matter if we're talking about the economy, troop withdrawal, elections, irritable bowel syndrome, etc... it always has to come back to the NWO and the shadow government. As Bill Mahr would say, what a bunch of fucking looneys.
"I'll use the magic word - let's just shut the fuck up, please." EV, 04/13/08
How predictable. Every thread has to be overrun by team tin hat. It doesn't matter if we're talking about the economy, troop withdrawal, elections, irritable bowel syndrome, etc... it always has to come back to the NWO and the shadow government. As Bill Mahr would say, what a bunch of fucking looneys.
Did you watch the Cheyney clip i posted up there?
DO YOU THINK HE SUDDENLY WENT RETARDED?
He KNEW EXACTLY what was gonna happen?
How can you not fathom that it was 100% calculated to get us in to this bullshit mess?
If I was to smile and I held out my hand
If I opened it now would you not understand?
Progress is not made by everyone joining some new fad,
and reveling in it's loyalty. It's made by forming coalitions
over specific principles, goals, and policies.
Of course I contradicted myself, I was repeating an argument that is contradictory.
My point is: "You can't know for sure what's going to happen if you do X, Y, Z" is no way to make a decision. It leaves you paralyzed in one place. Should I cross the street or stay here? If I cross the street, I might get hit by car. If I stay here, I might get mugged. What to do? What to do?"
Back to my original point: There is plenty of evidence to suggest that Iraq is more stable with us there than with us not. I'm not saying we need to stay there forever. I'm not saying we can't begin a gradual pullout, and soon. I'm saying pulling every single troop out right his very second sounds like a very, very bad idea -- for Iraq, and eventually, for us.
If you people can't see how an Iraq overrun by Al Qaeda and eventually ruled by its sympathizers is bad news for the region and the world, then I can't help you. We can't pull out all the troops until we can be relatively sure Iraq can defend itself on its own. If nothing else, it's just good manners.
everybody wants the most they can possibly get
for the least they could possibly do
So the answer to all of life's problems is to do ... nothing. Since you never know whether your actions will make the situation better or worse. It's all a big guess.
Hell, you're just guessing that bringing the troops home will make them safer. What if we bring them home, and then the United States is hit by a giant asteroid, and they all die? They would have been safer in Iraq.
I just don't understand your point. We can't know 100 percent what will happen to Iraq without U.S. troops there, so we just should withdraw them all immediately and see? Yay. Fun. I don't understand your rationale. Sorry.
umm...by leaving, the US will be doing something...leaving...
asteroid...
let me expand on my point, this occupation has been going on since 2003...it's now 2008...as Jlew pointed out, it's time...it's time to make a change in course and strategy...by leaving, the Iraqi's can take back their country and run it as they see fit...
will bombs explode and lives be lost...? I don't know, what I know is lives will be lost as long as we stay...
Of course I contradicted myself, I was repeating an argument that is contradictory.
My point is: "You can't know for sure what's going to happen if you do X, Y, Z" is no way to make a decision. It leaves you paralyzed in one place. Should I cross the street or stay here? If I cross the street, I might get hit by car. If I stay here, I might get mugged. What to do? What to do?"
Back to my original point: There is plenty of evidence to suggest that Iraq is more stable with us there than with us not. I'm not saying we need to stay there forever. I'm not saying we can't begin a gradual pullout, and soon. I'm saying pulling every single troop out right his very second sounds like a very, very bad idea -- for Iraq, and eventually, for us.
If you people can't see how an Iraq overrun by Al Qaeda and eventually ruled by its sympathizers is bad news for the region and the world, then I can't help you. We can't pull out all the troops until we can be relatively sure Iraq can defend itself on its own. If nothing else, it's just good manners.
It was pretty damn stable when it was ruled by a dictator and the secret police was jailing or killing any dissidents. So instead of the populace being afraid of the state, they are now afraid of the insurgents. I don't see how Iraq is any more stable or better off than it was before we arrived.
one foot in the door
the other foot in the gutter
sweet smell that they adore
I think I'd rather smother
-The Replacements-
Your link was hosed up, so I didn't view your clip this time, but yes. That has been posted before. The first time it was posted I was so pissed I wrote an email to Cheney that probably has me on some watch list.
How can you not fathom that it was 100% calculated to get us in to this bullshit mess?
This is where we part. You see this as a progression in some NWO master plan. I see it as opportunism. If this was calculated to create the mess, why did he give that initial speech, and why didn't he just go for it then? Why would he have shown his hand if he was going to play it a decade later?
"I'll use the magic word - let's just shut the fuck up, please." EV, 04/13/08
We ain't going nowhere... not for at least 10 to 20 years.
Here's how I see it and why.
1. Command And Control.
Who has Command and Control over the combat forces over there... US or Them?
Answer: US. And for good reason. I, personally, would never want our soldiers under the command of a foriegn nation... would you?
What's the alternative? Command and Control handed over to Iraqis? Which Iraqis? The ones from the deck of cards? The ones who rise up from the ranks of the recruits we've trainned? How long is THAT going to take? Who do we put in charge over there?
2. Logistics Support.
Who handles all of the logistic suport for military operations over there?
Again... we do. Without all of the support resources, none of the combat operations can go on. This may be easier to turn over to Iraqis... but, again... who?
3. Air Support.
Need a sniper taken out? Cal in an air strike. Need Night Stalkers on patrol to take out fuckers trying to set I.E.D.s on roads? Where are the Iraqis going to get this support?
Again... US. Are we going to take out air support out when we leave... or leave our aircraft over ther for them to operate and maintain? My guess... we're taking our shit with us when we leave.
4. Medical Support.
Who is running the Combat Surgical Hospitals over there?
Again... you guessed it. The reason why we are seeing fewer deaths is because of our rapid med-evac capabilities and forward operations of our surgical facilities. Even C-17s can be converted into full blown airborne trauma centers to fly the worst infured to Ramstein A.F.B. what happens when we pull our medical support?
...
So, all of those things combined... Command and Control, Logistics Support, Air Support and Medical Support... are reasons why we will be there forever. We may be able to rotate out combat troops as more and more Iraqis are trainned (remember, in the Fal of 2003, Bush/Rumsfeld claimed 350,000 Iraqis were trainned... what happened to them?). but what about the others? And would you want Iraqi soldiers put in charge of looking out for the well being of our soldiers in those administrative and support roles? Or would you feel better if it were our guys watching their backs?
It's not that we don't want to leave... but, we've fucked up so bad in Iraq... we CAN'T leave.
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Hail, Hail!!!
i hear about democrats promising their supporters that the first thing they will do in office is get the troops out of iraq, how does this train of thought even make sense, and why do any of you agree with it??
Does any American honestly feel safer after toppling Saddam? I don't. I actually am a lot more fearful when I travel abroad. Let's face it, we are dealing with a demography that we do not understand. No country in the Mid East is even close to being a secular state, and with that being the case, the chances of getting sane, rational people to run a government in Iraq is fantasy. We need to pull out now and save some troops lives. At our current pace, there is no end or stability in sight.
Steve
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It was pretty damn stable when it was ruled by a dictator and the secret police was jailing or killing any dissidents. So instead of the populace being afraid of the state, they are now afraid of the insurgents. I don't see how Iraq is any more stable or better off than it was before we arrived.
This is another argument entirely. The argument here isn't whether or not we should have been here in the first place. It's moot. We're there.
The argument is: What to do now?
And I don't think throwing Iraq to the wolves defenseless is the answer. But that's just me.
everybody wants the most they can possibly get
for the least they could possibly do
let me expand on my point, this occupation has been going on since 2003...it's now 2008...as Jlew pointed out, it's time...it's time to make a change in course and strategy.
We did change course. We sent MORE troops. And it seems to have worked.
Point being: There are other ways to "change course" than just saying, "Fuck it. We quit. Iraq's fucked. We broke it. Tough luck, guys."
I would argue that we are MORALLY OBLIGATED to stay there for as long as it's fucked.
everybody wants the most they can possibly get
for the least they could possibly do
We ain't going nowhere... not for at least 10 to 20 years.
Here's how I see it and why.
1. Command And Control.
Who has Command and Control over the combat forces over there... US or Them?
Answer: US. And for good reason. I, personally, would never want our soldiers under the command of a foriegn nation... would you?
What's the alternative? Command and Control handed over to Iraqis? Which Iraqis? The ones from the deck of cards? The ones who rise up from the ranks of the recruits we've trainned? How long is THAT going to take? Who do we put in charge over there?
2. Logistics Support.
Who handles all of the logistic suport for military operations over there?
Again... we do. Without all of the support resources, none of the combat operations can go on. This may be easier to turn over to Iraqis... but, again... who?
3. Air Support.
Need a sniper taken out? Cal in an air strike. Need Night Stalkers on patrol to take out fuckers trying to set I.E.D.s on roads? Where are the Iraqis going to get this support?
Again... US. Are we going to take out air support out when we leave... or leave our aircraft over ther for them to operate and maintain? My guess... we're taking our shit with us when we leave.
4. Medical Support.
Who is running the Combat Surgical Hospitals over there?
Again... you guessed it. The reason why we are seeing fewer deaths is because of our rapid med-evac capabilities and forward operations of our surgical facilities. Even C-17s can be converted into full blown airborne trauma centers to fly the worst infured to Ramstein A.F.B. what happens when we pull our medical support?
...
So, all of those things combined... Command and Control, Logistics Support, Air Support and Medical Support... are reasons why we will be there forever. We may be able to rotate out combat troops as more and more Iraqis are trainned (remember, in the Fal of 2003, Bush/Rumsfeld claimed 350,000 Iraqis were trainned... what happened to them?). but what about the others? And would you want Iraqi soldiers put in charge of looking out for the well being of our soldiers in those administrative and support roles? Or would you feel better if it were our guys watching their backs?
It's not that we don't want to leave... but, we've fucked up so bad in Iraq... we CAN'T leave.
Well done....but, we do expect good work from you.
All the world will be your enemy, Prince with a thousand enemies, and whenever they catch you, they will kill you. But first they must catch you, digger, listener, runner, prince with the swift warning. Be cunning and full of tricks and your people shall never be destroyed.
That's the plan. War is going to become a business run enterprise...actually it already is.
beware the MIC...well it's here... It's now part of corporate America, and based on 1000 lies repeated to the world over a million times.
Progress is not made by everyone joining some new fad,
and reveling in it's loyalty. It's made by forming coalitions
over specific principles, goals, and policies.
ok i realize our iraq strategy was completely flawed, isnt that why rumsfeld is gone? but back to my intial question...how does pulling out of iraq now make any sense? for the us and for iraq?
you have an excellent question...as fked up as it was to go in....we can't just pull all troops jan 08. It will take time and there needs to be transition to iraqi army.....but US soldiers should get out of patrols...fast. Obama & Hilliary understand this....now Karls & Rummy's plan to pass agreement for long term stay has to fail....we need to get out as soon as possible. Show Muslims respect...they deserve it.
and i guess most everyone here forgot that we, the united states, are in a war on terror...its a constant struggle to keep our country safe and not let another 9/11 happen, which our president has succeeded, like it or not, and if we dont continue to be on the offensive, then we will open ourselves up to another attack by being defensive...our military defends and dies for our freedom everyday, dont ever forget it.
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...i know all the rules but the rules do not know me, guaranteed...
you have an excellent question...as fked up as it was to go in....we can't just pull all troops jan 08. It will take time and there needs to be transition to iraqi army.....but US soldiers should get out of patrols...fast. Obama & Hilliary understand this....now Karls & Rummy's plan to pass agreement for long term stay has to fail....we need to get out as soon as possible. Show Muslims respect...they deserve it.
...honestly, i dont think muslims deserve respect, they are extremely dangerous as their continous suicide bombings show...
8.29.00-4.29.03-4.30.03-5.2.03-7.2.03-7.3.03-7.8.03-7.9.03-7.11.03-9.28.04-9.29.04-10.1.04- 10.2.04-10.3.04-5.12.06-5.24.06-5.25.06
...i know all the rules but the rules do not know me, guaranteed...
.....and one more thing to rile up your skulls full of mush....alot of people here think we are there just for oil, consider the amazing potential of alaska and all the oil there and the potential of offshore drilling and what we would find...we could become alot more energy effecient, and not rely on forgein oil with jacked up prices...but NO, all the enviormentalists wont allow drilling offshore, or in alaska...ask yourself, would you rather our country at war for oil, or would you rather see us drill in our own country for a lot cheaper??
8.29.00-4.29.03-4.30.03-5.2.03-7.2.03-7.3.03-7.8.03-7.9.03-7.11.03-9.28.04-9.29.04-10.1.04- 10.2.04-10.3.04-5.12.06-5.24.06-5.25.06
...i know all the rules but the rules do not know me, guaranteed...
.....and one more thing to rile up your skulls full of mush....alot of people here think we are there just for oil, consider the amazing potential of alaska and all the oil there and the potential of offshore drilling and what we would find...we could become alot more energy effecient, and not rely on forgein oil with jacked up prices...but NO, all the enviormentalists wont allow drilling offshore, or in alaska...ask yourself, would you rather our country at war for oil, or would you rather see us drill in our own country for a lot cheaper??
Fuck oil... its going to run out eventually. We should be spending time and money on developing new energy technologies, which would result with more jobs which is always a good thing. But no we fight a bullshit war so people can get rich.
and i guess most everyone here forgot that we, the united states, are in a war on terror...its a constant struggle to keep our country safe and not let another 9/11 happen, which our president has succeeded, like it or not, and if we dont continue to be on the offensive, then we will open ourselves up to another attack by being defensive...our military defends and dies for our freedom everyday, dont ever forget it.
thanks for the info giuliani.
again, as i have said a thousand times....a war on terror is a WAR AGAINST A TACTIC. TERROR IS THE TACTIC THAT THEY USE! YOU CAN NOT FIGHT A WAR AGAINST A TACTIC!! as evidenced by our overwhelming success in this war. that would be like them fighting a "War on airstrikes". it can't be won.
how long ago was the "mission accomplished" party on the boat? i want to hear from you, if the mission is accomplished, what are we still doing over there, and what is the new mission we are trying to accomplish?
also, please answer me how my freedom is threatened and is in constant need of defending. i would like to hear it explained to me.
"You can tell the greatness of a man by what makes him angry." - Lincoln
i hear about democrats promising their supporters that the first thing they will do in office is get the troops out of iraq, how does this train of thought even make sense, and why do any of you agree with it??
You invade a country, you meet resistance after unleashing everythign short of atomic weapons, you have literally no international support and very little local support within the US, and you wonder why withdrawal is a bad idea? Wtf.
again, as i have said a thousand times....a war on terror is a WAR AGAINST A TACTIC. TERROR IS THE TACTIC THAT THEY USE! YOU CAN NOT FIGHT A WAR AGAINST A TACTIC!! as evidenced by our overwhelming success in this war. that would be like them fighting a "War on airstrikes". it can't be won.
how long ago was the "mission accomplished" party on the boat? i want to hear from you, if the mission is accomplished, what are we still doing over there, and what is the new mission we are trying to accomplish?
also, please answer me how my freedom is threatened and is in constant need of defending. i would like to hear it explained to me.
yes, your right, we are in a war against islamic fascism, not terror, and our freedoms are being defended every day by our service men and women over seas, we have been on the offensive, which is alot better than being on the defensive, do you not think we should have retaliated to the events of 9/11? wasnt Saddamn Hussien a lingering threat to us for years?? and once we get bin laden, are you going to bitch about us in afghanistan??
8.29.00-4.29.03-4.30.03-5.2.03-7.2.03-7.3.03-7.8.03-7.9.03-7.11.03-9.28.04-9.29.04-10.1.04- 10.2.04-10.3.04-5.12.06-5.24.06-5.25.06
...i know all the rules but the rules do not know me, guaranteed...
Fuck oil... its going to run out eventually. We should be spending time and money on developing new energy technologies, which would result with more jobs which is always a good thing. But no we fight a bullshit war so people can get rich.
last i checked we are developing new technologies, but until we can market it in a way thats feasable for companies to make a profit, then its not going to happen...in case we've forgotten, we live in a capitalistic society here in the usa...hybrid cars are the first step, you can say fuck oil, but its the most important natural resource on earth at the moment and it does alot more than help run your car, check back into reality, if guarantee if this situation was turned around, if a democrat was the president during the past two terms, all of the media would be very sympathetic about president gores rebuilding of iraq, and how great it is that he's trying his darndest to make it a sweet little democracy....
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...i know all the rules but the rules do not know me, guaranteed...
0
g under p
Surfing The far side of THE Sombrero Galaxy Posts: 18,200
its been long enough. I think Iraq is close (or as close as its going to get) to being able to support itself militarily. we need to get combat troops out and change our strategy. we need to have personal there that will train and support Iraqi troops. I supprted the "stay the course" and troop increase policy and it seems to be working. this war has been going on much too long.
but I understand where you are coming from. we dont need to abandon the place like the left is suggesting, but we do need a change in strategy
We will never abandon this country, we have and we're building permanent military bases there at least 4 of them. In the future we may not keep the troop count that we have now and it matters none to this current administration or any future administrations.
It sucks either way.
Peace
*We CAN bomb the World to pieces, but we CAN'T bomb it into PEACE*...Michael Franti
*MUSIC IS the expression of EMOTION.....and that POLITICS IS merely the DECOY of PERCEPTION*
.....song_Music & Politics....Michael Franti
*The scientists of today think deeply instead of clearly. One must be sane to think clearly, but one can think deeply and be quite INSANE*....Nikola Tesla(a man who shaped our world of electricity with his futuristic inventions)
yes, your right, we are in a war against islamic fascism, not terror, and our freedoms are being defended every day by our service men and women over seas, we have been on the offensive, which is alot better than being on the defensive, do you not think we should have retaliated to the events of 9/11? wasnt Saddamn Hussien a lingering threat to us for years?? and once we get bin laden, are you going to bitch about us in afghanistan??
again, how is my freedom threatened and in need of constant defending? please answer this because i'd like to know. no islamic fascist is going to cause me to lose my freedoms. but my government has been chipping away at them ever so slowly since 9/11. whatever our troops are doing over there, it has nothing to do with my freedom, so stop using that 7th grade argument.
yes i think we should have retaliated for 9/11, but we should have gone after the people that attacked us (most of them were saudi) and focused on afghanistan instead taking the detour of freedom giving and nation building in iraq, which was not a threat to us at any time. read a frickin book or newspaper. its all there....war of choice and no WMDS, end of story.
ps. we are NEVER going to get bin laden. and if we did, would it really matter because there are many people lining up to take his place....
"You can tell the greatness of a man by what makes him angry." - Lincoln
again, how is my freedom threatened and in need of constant defending? please answer this because i'd like to know. no islamic fascist is going to cause me to lose my freedoms. but my government has been chipping away at them ever so slowly since 9/11. whatever our troops are doing over there, it has nothing to do with my freedom, so stop using that 7th grade argument.
yes i think we should have retaliated for 9/11, but we should have gone after the people that attacked us (most of them were saudi) and focused on afghanistan instead taking the detour of freedom giving and nation building in iraq, which was not a threat to us at any time. read a frickin book or newspaper. its all there....war of choice and no WMDS, end of story.
ps. we are NEVER going to get bin laden. and if we did, would it really matter because there are many people lining up to take his place....
I know we don't often agree, but I completely agree with everything you said here. Nicely stated.
"I'll use the magic word - let's just shut the fuck up, please." EV, 04/13/08
Comments
I totally hear what you're saying, but what if you were getting paid a few million a year (or more) to stay with your wife and just pretend to be working it all out?
See what I'm saying? Some people are getting that kind of money to pretend to be working things out over there.
and reveling in it's loyalty. It's made by forming coalitions
over specific principles, goals, and policies.
http://i36.tinypic.com/66j31x.jpg
(\__/)
( o.O)
(")_(")
I think you missed the sarcasim.
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Oh, dude, dont mistaken me. And i totally understand what you are saying....they've got a freakin gold mine over there, and they are taking full-advantage of it. We all understand that.
Problem is, the janitor wants to go home and "you're" still shooting hoops demanding to stay.
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Did you watch the Cheyney clip i posted up there?
DO YOU THINK HE SUDDENLY WENT RETARDED?
He KNEW EXACTLY what was gonna happen?
How can you not fathom that it was 100% calculated to get us in to this bullshit mess?
If I opened it now would you not understand?
no lies...all tinhat
gmafb...
and reveling in it's loyalty. It's made by forming coalitions
over specific principles, goals, and policies.
http://i36.tinypic.com/66j31x.jpg
(\__/)
( o.O)
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Of course I contradicted myself, I was repeating an argument that is contradictory.
My point is: "You can't know for sure what's going to happen if you do X, Y, Z" is no way to make a decision. It leaves you paralyzed in one place. Should I cross the street or stay here? If I cross the street, I might get hit by car. If I stay here, I might get mugged. What to do? What to do?"
Back to my original point: There is plenty of evidence to suggest that Iraq is more stable with us there than with us not. I'm not saying we need to stay there forever. I'm not saying we can't begin a gradual pullout, and soon. I'm saying pulling every single troop out right his very second sounds like a very, very bad idea -- for Iraq, and eventually, for us.
If you people can't see how an Iraq overrun by Al Qaeda and eventually ruled by its sympathizers is bad news for the region and the world, then I can't help you. We can't pull out all the troops until we can be relatively sure Iraq can defend itself on its own. If nothing else, it's just good manners.
for the least they could possibly do
umm...by leaving, the US will be doing something...leaving...
asteroid...
let me expand on my point, this occupation has been going on since 2003...it's now 2008...as Jlew pointed out, it's time...it's time to make a change in course and strategy...by leaving, the Iraqi's can take back their country and run it as they see fit...
will bombs explode and lives be lost...? I don't know, what I know is lives will be lost as long as we stay...
It was pretty damn stable when it was ruled by a dictator and the secret police was jailing or killing any dissidents. So instead of the populace being afraid of the state, they are now afraid of the insurgents. I don't see how Iraq is any more stable or better off than it was before we arrived.
the other foot in the gutter
sweet smell that they adore
I think I'd rather smother
-The Replacements-
Possibly. Or maybe he felt conditions had sufficiently changed. Either way, I am opposed to what he did, and recognize the contradiction.
He was right on the money. Everything he thought would happen, did.
This is where we part. You see this as a progression in some NWO master plan. I see it as opportunism. If this was calculated to create the mess, why did he give that initial speech, and why didn't he just go for it then? Why would he have shown his hand if he was going to play it a decade later?
Here's how I see it and why.
1. Command And Control.
Who has Command and Control over the combat forces over there... US or Them?
Answer: US. And for good reason. I, personally, would never want our soldiers under the command of a foriegn nation... would you?
What's the alternative? Command and Control handed over to Iraqis? Which Iraqis? The ones from the deck of cards? The ones who rise up from the ranks of the recruits we've trainned? How long is THAT going to take? Who do we put in charge over there?
2. Logistics Support.
Who handles all of the logistic suport for military operations over there?
Again... we do. Without all of the support resources, none of the combat operations can go on. This may be easier to turn over to Iraqis... but, again... who?
3. Air Support.
Need a sniper taken out? Cal in an air strike. Need Night Stalkers on patrol to take out fuckers trying to set I.E.D.s on roads? Where are the Iraqis going to get this support?
Again... US. Are we going to take out air support out when we leave... or leave our aircraft over ther for them to operate and maintain? My guess... we're taking our shit with us when we leave.
4. Medical Support.
Who is running the Combat Surgical Hospitals over there?
Again... you guessed it. The reason why we are seeing fewer deaths is because of our rapid med-evac capabilities and forward operations of our surgical facilities. Even C-17s can be converted into full blown airborne trauma centers to fly the worst infured to Ramstein A.F.B. what happens when we pull our medical support?
...
So, all of those things combined... Command and Control, Logistics Support, Air Support and Medical Support... are reasons why we will be there forever. We may be able to rotate out combat troops as more and more Iraqis are trainned (remember, in the Fal of 2003, Bush/Rumsfeld claimed 350,000 Iraqis were trainned... what happened to them?). but what about the others? And would you want Iraqi soldiers put in charge of looking out for the well being of our soldiers in those administrative and support roles? Or would you feel better if it were our guys watching their backs?
It's not that we don't want to leave... but, we've fucked up so bad in Iraq... we CAN'T leave.
Hail, Hail!!!
Does any American honestly feel safer after toppling Saddam? I don't. I actually am a lot more fearful when I travel abroad. Let's face it, we are dealing with a demography that we do not understand. No country in the Mid East is even close to being a secular state, and with that being the case, the chances of getting sane, rational people to run a government in Iraq is fantasy. We need to pull out now and save some troops lives. At our current pace, there is no end or stability in sight.
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This is another argument entirely. The argument here isn't whether or not we should have been here in the first place. It's moot. We're there.
The argument is: What to do now?
And I don't think throwing Iraq to the wolves defenseless is the answer. But that's just me.
for the least they could possibly do
We did change course. We sent MORE troops. And it seems to have worked.
Point being: There are other ways to "change course" than just saying, "Fuck it. We quit. Iraq's fucked. We broke it. Tough luck, guys."
I would argue that we are MORALLY OBLIGATED to stay there for as long as it's fucked.
for the least they could possibly do
That's the plan. War is going to become a business run enterprise...actually it already is.
beware the MIC...well it's here... It's now part of corporate America, and based on 1000 lies repeated to the world over a million times.
and reveling in it's loyalty. It's made by forming coalitions
over specific principles, goals, and policies.
http://i36.tinypic.com/66j31x.jpg
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( o.O)
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...i know all the rules but the rules do not know me, guaranteed...
...i know all the rules but the rules do not know me, guaranteed...
...i know all the rules but the rules do not know me, guaranteed...
Fuck oil... its going to run out eventually. We should be spending time and money on developing new energy technologies, which would result with more jobs which is always a good thing. But no we fight a bullshit war so people can get rich.
thanks for the info giuliani.
again, as i have said a thousand times....a war on terror is a WAR AGAINST A TACTIC. TERROR IS THE TACTIC THAT THEY USE! YOU CAN NOT FIGHT A WAR AGAINST A TACTIC!! as evidenced by our overwhelming success in this war. that would be like them fighting a "War on airstrikes". it can't be won.
how long ago was the "mission accomplished" party on the boat? i want to hear from you, if the mission is accomplished, what are we still doing over there, and what is the new mission we are trying to accomplish?
also, please answer me how my freedom is threatened and is in constant need of defending. i would like to hear it explained to me.
"Well, you tell him that I don't talk to suckas."
Wow.
Just...
Wow.
...i know all the rules but the rules do not know me, guaranteed...
...i know all the rules but the rules do not know me, guaranteed...
We will never abandon this country, we have and we're building permanent military bases there at least 4 of them. In the future we may not keep the troop count that we have now and it matters none to this current administration or any future administrations.
It sucks either way.
Peace
*MUSIC IS the expression of EMOTION.....and that POLITICS IS merely the DECOY of PERCEPTION*
.....song_Music & Politics....Michael Franti
*The scientists of today think deeply instead of clearly. One must be sane to think clearly, but one can think deeply and be quite INSANE*....Nikola Tesla(a man who shaped our world of electricity with his futuristic inventions)
again, how is my freedom threatened and in need of constant defending? please answer this because i'd like to know. no islamic fascist is going to cause me to lose my freedoms. but my government has been chipping away at them ever so slowly since 9/11. whatever our troops are doing over there, it has nothing to do with my freedom, so stop using that 7th grade argument.
yes i think we should have retaliated for 9/11, but we should have gone after the people that attacked us (most of them were saudi) and focused on afghanistan instead taking the detour of freedom giving and nation building in iraq, which was not a threat to us at any time. read a frickin book or newspaper. its all there....war of choice and no WMDS, end of story.
ps. we are NEVER going to get bin laden. and if we did, would it really matter because there are many people lining up to take his place....
"Well, you tell him that I don't talk to suckas."
I know we don't often agree, but I completely agree with everything you said here. Nicely stated.