Why aren't Christians pacifists?

Eliot Rosewater

deadnothingbetter wrote:

the bible says that there is no one that is righteous.

one of the many reasons that it kinda sucks.

deadnothingbetter

don't gimme no wrote:

one of the many reasons that it kinda sucks.

yes, it sucks for us... cause in reality the bible is absolutely right.... do you know what righteous means? upright? perfect? that's what it means... a perfect being. a perfect man. is that what you are trying to be, a perfect man? i mean, it would be nice... i'd like to be perfect but it's impossible because of my human characteristics. the bible says that there is no one perfect but it also says that perfection can be achieved through faith. "the righteous shall live by faith"

slightofjeff

don't gimme no wrote:

Ding ding ding ding. We have a winner.

You see, to me that's really the basis of this thread. If they believed in the words of Christ and if they were truly doing what Jesus would do, then they wouldn't ever justify killing. Even in self-defense.

How do you know what Jesus would do? Again, it's only your interpretation.

Maybe if Christ wasn't so preoccupied with dying for everyone's sins, he might have kicked some ass.

ArmsinaV

slightofjeff wrote:

How do you know what Jesus would do? Again, it's only your interpretation.

Maybe if Christ wasn't so preoccupied with dying for everyone's sins, he might have kicked some ass.

This is a strange idea. What do you mean by "kicking ass"? Fighting people? Jesus came specifically for the purpose of NOT fighting people, in a physical sense. He rebuked the Zealots of the Jewish community - like Peter - who wanted to rebel and overthrow the Roman occupation. He told them they had missed the idea completely by thinking force could establish the true Kingdom. I'd say what Jesus did do wasn't a preoccupation or a lack of kicking ass. It kicked ass as much as was/is possible.

Also, I'd ask you again. I am honestly asking what passages or ideas in the New Testament may lead you to believe that Christians shouldn't be pacifist. Jesus said to turn the other cheek. You said there were passages that said war is a moral obligation. What are they?

And from what I can find on the early Church, they were anything but violent for the first 3 or 4 hundred years. They allowed themselves to be murdered by the Romans in the most gruesome of ways. Not until after Constantine were there "Christian wars" or rulers thinking they could fight with the endorsement of Christ.

ArmsinaV

deadnothingbetter wrote:

and he did not redeem Israel... the bible never says it. He redeemed humanity. Israel still has certain things pending and they have not claimed Christ as the true Messiah.

Ooh. Have to disagree with you there. True, some of Israel denied him and his Kingdom. But Christ redeemed it whether some of them were on board or not. The entire OT points to Israel's redemption through a Messiah. Most of them thought that meant a physical Kingdom that would defeat Rome. When it didn't, Jesus wasn't fully received. But nevertheless, he accomplished his goal of redemption. Israel - the people not today's country - was redeemed along with everyone else.

cornnifer

deadnothingbetter wrote:

And i'm sure that many will disagree with me, even other Christians, but Jesus is not God. and the scripture that say I and my Father are one doesn't mean that. it's a spiritual meaning.

What about this famous exchange:

"13When Jesus came to the region of Caesarea Philippi, he asked his disciples, "Who do people say the Son of Man is?"
14They replied, "Some say John the Baptist; others say Elijah; and still others, Jeremiah or one of the prophets."

15"But what about you?" he asked. "Who do you say I am?"

16Simon Peter answered, "You are the Christ, the Son of the living God."

17Jesus replied, "Blessed are you, Simon son of Jonah, for this was not revealed to you by man, but by my Father in heaven. 18And I tell you that you are Peter,[c] and on this rock I will build my church, and the gates of Hades[d] will not overcome it.[e] 19I will give you the keys of the kingdom of heaven; whatever you bind on earth will be[f] bound in heaven, and whatever you loose on earth will be[g] loosed in heaven." 20Then he warned his disciples not to tell anyone that he was the Christ."


Lets also consider this from the OT book of Daniel:

13 "In my vision at night I looked, and there before me was one like a son of man, coming with the clouds of heaven. He approached the Ancient of Days and was led into his presence. 14 He was given authority, glory and sovereign power; all peoples, nations and men of every language worshiped him. His dominion is an everlasting dominion that will not pass away, and his kingdom is one that will never be destroyed."

Let us remember that Jesus often referred to himself as the "son of man". Obvious reference to this passage.

There are many others (this is really to complicated for a message board).
Jesus claiming to forgive sinners (even those whose transgressions were not committed against him personaly), a practice in Jewish custom that was highly blasphempous as only God had the authority to do such a thing, his claim to have come "not to abolish the law, but to fulfill it" etc...


You may not believe that Jesus was God incarnate (the word made flesh), a divine extension of the Godhead, that is, by all means, your perogative. But the fact that Jesus staked claim to OT messianic propohecy, that he did indeed make divine claims of himself, is pretty much undeniable.

deadnothingbetter

ArmsinaV wrote:

Ooh. Have to disagree with you there. True, some of Israel denied him and his Kingdom. But Christ redeemed it whether some of them were on board or not. The entire OT points to Israel's redemption through a Messiah. Most of them thought that meant a physical Kingdom that would defeat Rome. When it didn't, Jesus wasn't fully received. But nevertheless, he accomplished his goal of redemption. Israel - the people not today's country - was redeemed along with everyone else.

hmmmm..... i will put further study into this. I'm not entirely sure this is true... cause there are still millions of Jews whom God will not leave out in his plan for salvation. His promise is still to Abraham and God never forgets His promises. I'm guessing you're not entirely convinced about the millenium reign in which God will deal completely with the Jews? there's further detail into this than meets the eye, i'm sure you know.

deadnothingbetter

cornnifer wrote:

What about this famous exchange:

"13When Jesus came to the region of Caesarea Philippi, he asked his disciples, "Who do people say the Son of Man is?"
14They replied, "Some say John the Baptist; others say Elijah; and still others, Jeremiah or one of the prophets."

15"But what about you?" he asked. "Who do you say I am?"

16Simon Peter answered, "You are the Christ, the Son of the living God."

17Jesus replied, "Blessed are you, Simon son of Jonah, for this was not revealed to you by man, but by my Father in heaven. 18And I tell you that you are Peter,[c] and on this rock I will build my church, and the gates of Hades[d] will not overcome it.[e] 19I will give you the keys of the kingdom of heaven; whatever you bind on earth will be[f] bound in heaven, and whatever you loose on earth will be[g] loosed in heaven." 20Then he warned his disciples not to tell anyone that he was the Christ."


Lets also consider this from the OT book of Daniel:

13 "In my vision at night I looked, and there before me was one like a son of man, coming with the clouds of heaven. He approached the Ancient of Days and was led into his presence. 14 He was given authority, glory and sovereign power; all peoples, nations and men of every language worshiped him. His dominion is an everlasting dominion that will not pass away, and his kingdom is one that will never be destroyed."

Let us remember that Jesus often referred to himself as the "son of man". Obvious reference to this passage.

There are many others (this is really to complicated for a message board).
Jesus claiming to forgive sinners (even those whose transgressions were not committed against him personaly), a practice in Jewish custom that was highly blasphempous as only God had the authority to do such a thing, his claim to have come "not to abolish the law, but to fulfill it" etc...


You may not believe that Jesus was God incarnate (the word made flesh), a divine extension of the Godhead, that is, by all means, your perogative. But the fact that Jesus staked claim to OT messianic propohecy, that he did indeed make divine claims of himself, is pretty much undeniable.

no, I never denied the divinity of Jesus. I believe that the Logos (word) that "spoke into the darkness and created the light" is the same Logos that was incarnate in the man Jesus. Thus, making him do such miracles. This same Logos, which is the Word of God, is incarnate also in us who believe. "to whom God would make known what is the riches of the glory of this mystery, which is Christ in you, the hope of glory" And it is by what we preach and believe that makes us one body in Christ... "having put on the mind of Christ". And when all of this is over, as it's stated in I Cor. 15, when everything has been subjected under his (Christ) feet, even death, he will then turn to the Father and give everything to Him so that He may be God in all. There are so many scriptures that I am chasing right now that shows you why Jesus is not God.

ArmsinaV

deadnothingbetter wrote:

hmmmm..... i will put further study into this. I'm not entirely sure this is true... cause there are still millions of Jews whom God will not leave out in his plan for salvation. His promise is still to Abraham and God never forgets His promises. I'm guessing you're not entirely convinced about the millenium reign in which God will deal completely with the Jews? there's further detail into this than meets the eye, i'm sure you know.

I do not believe in the rapture or the millennium. They are both misinterpretations of the figurative/apocalyptic language used in the Bible of things that have already happened. The Daniel passages, some parts of the Gospels, Revelation, etc. All that stuff is taken so literally by people and they create the most bizarre ideas.

My overall point about Jesus and Isral is this - everything Jesus did had either a symbolic or direct meaning in redeeming Israel. People have to remember what was going on in Jerusalem when He lived. We place our culture and viewpoints on Jesus and make him something He was not.

The Jews were convinced that God would deliver them from Rome and oppression, and most thought that meant rebuilding the Temple and military victory. The Qumran group - who provided the Dead Sea Scrolls i think - the Pharisees, King Herod. They were all trying to redeem Israel to God, and that kind of chaos and tension is what Jesus walked into.

Jesus was a Revolutionary because He upended everything, brought salvation to Israel, extended it elsewhere, and completely undermined the political realities of Jewish society. His message was NOT, "Believe in me so you won't go to Hell." That may be a part of it, but it's not why He came. His message was, believe in me because MY version of the Kingdom is the one you've been waiting for.

I guess my point is, when we forget what was happening when Jesus lived, we project our own cultures in to fill in the gaps. Most people don't see Jesus' message as the restoration of a Kingdom that has room for all. They see it as a moralistic message of individual piety so you don't go to Hell. That is not what the Church is based on. The Pharisees were the most pious and "moral" people around, and God totally rejected their attempts at redemption.

Everything about what Jesus did was counter-culture and counter-mainstream. Not only do you not hit back, you TURN THE OTHER CHEEK. Not only do you not sleep around, you don't even THINK lustfully. He turned the establishment on its head. My question about pacifism is related to that.

Are Christians simply projecting the cultures they've been raised in and molding Jesus into it? Do we truly embrace the radical message he preached? Do we truly bring the same kind of radical redemption to the world that Jesus brought to Israel, and everyone else?

I mean, what would people think if Christians got up and said, "Osama bin Laden, we forgive you because Christ forgave us. We love you because you are God's child. We will not fight back. We will not kill others."

To me, that sounds more like the kind of radical message Christ preached than somehow morphing conservative (or liberal) politics with Christ. Or being just as - or close to - concerned with being a good "patriot" as being a good CHristian, and seeing them as basically the same things.

Keep in mind, you are talking to a Conservative Republican. I voted for George Bush and have always been basically conservative in my view of the world. But some recent thinking and reading has made me question the idea that my Christianity could so easily adapt to something like the Republican/Democratic agenda. Jesus was a radical. Not in the sense of our radicals or our politics, but in the sense that he flipped it all upside down. And his Church was brutalized in Rome as a result. They were martyred, tortured, etc. Yet, the message lived on and spread. Now, we compare our faith to theirs when we are anything but radical. We endorse a sort of individual morality - which is a part of faith but not its basis - and a sort of private worship attitude. It's just not what Jesus preached, IMO. None of it. Not the Conservatism. Not the Leftist/Marxism. Not the hippie attitude. It's all been attached to Christ and it just doesn't fit....

deadnothingbetter

ArmsinaV wrote:

I do not believe in the rapture or the millennium. They are both misinterpretations of the figurative/apocalyptic language used in the Bible of things that have already happened. The Daniel passages, some parts of the Gospels, Revelation, etc. All that stuff is taken so literally by people and they create the most bizarre ideas.

My overall point about Jesus and Isral is this - everything Jesus did had either a symbolic or direct meaning in redeeming Israel. People have to remember what was going on in Jerusalem when He lived. We place our culture and viewpoints on Jesus and make him something He was not.

The Jews were convinced that God would deliver them from Rome and oppression, and most thought that meant rebuilding the Temple and military victory. The Qumran group - who provided the Dead Sea Scrolls i think - the Pharisees, King Herod. They were all trying to redeem Israel to God, and that kind of chaos and tension is what Jesus walked into.

Jesus was a Revolutionary because He upended everything, brought salvation to Israel, extended it elsewhere, and completely undermined the political realities of Jewish society. His message was NOT, "Believe in me so you won't go to Hell." That may be a part of it, but it's not why He came. His message was, believe in me because MY version of the Kingdom is the one you've been waiting for.

I guess my point is, when we forget what was happening when Jesus lived, we project our own cultures in to fill in the gaps. Most people don't see Jesus' message as the restoration of a Kingdom that has room for all. They see it as a moralistic message of individual piety so you don't go to Hell. That is not what the Church is based on. The Pharisees were the most pious and "moral" people around, and God totally rejected their attempts at redemption.

Everything about what Jesus did was counter-culture and counter-mainstream. Not only do you not hit back, you TURN THE OTHER CHEEK. Not only do you not sleep around, you don't even THINK lustfully. He turned the establishment on its head. My question about pacifism is related to that.

Are Christians simply projecting the cultures they've been raised in and molding Jesus into it? Do we truly embrace the radical message he preached? Do we truly bring the same kind of radical redemption to the world that Jesus brought to Israel, and everyone else?

I mean, what would people think if Christians got up and said, "Osama bin Laden, we forgive you because Christ forgave us. We love you because you are God's child. We will not fight back. We will not kill others."

To me, that sounds more like the kind of radical message Christ preached than somehow morphing conservative (or liberal) politics with Christ. Or being just as - or close to - concerned with being a good "patriot" as being a good CHristian, and seeing them as basically the same things.

Keep in mind, you are talking to a Conservative Republican. I voted for George Bush and have always been basically conservative in my view of the world. But some recent thinking and reading has made me question the idea that my Christianity could so easily adapt to something like the Republican/Democratic agenda. Jesus was a radical. Not in the sense of our radicals or our politics, but in the sense that he flipped it all upside down. And his Church was brutalized in Rome as a result. They were martyred, tortured, etc. Yet, the message lived on and spread. Now, we compare our faith to theirs when we are anything but radical. We endorse a sort of individual morality - which is a part of faith but not its basis - and a sort of private worship attitude. It's just not what Jesus preached, IMO. None of it. Not the Conservatism. Not the Leftist/Marxism. Not the hippie attitude. It's all been attached to Christ and it just doesn't fit....

the book of Revelation was not intended to bring about the prophecies promised for Israel. the book of Revelation was written to the church... i will get into this later with you... i gotta go to work.... but just one thing... there are things that we have to take literal but there are also things we must take as metaphorical. what passages of the gospels are you speaking of by which we must take as metaphorical?

ArmsinaV

deadnothingbetter wrote:

the book of Revelation was not intended to bring about the prophecies promised for Israel. the book of Revelation was written to the church... i will get into this later with you... i gotta go to work.

I agree, if I understand what you are saying.

El_Kabong

chopitdown wrote:

I think there are a lot more christians who are environmentally conscious than you think. It's just not their main political priority. http://www.ctlibrary.com/34178 You don't have to be at rallies or protests in order to be environmentally conscious.

never thought otherwise

all i'm saying is there aren't any in the mainstream saying these things, the ones in the mainstream seem to be advocating the opposite

deadnothingbetter

ArmsinaV wrote:

I do not believe in the rapture or the millennium. They are both misinterpretations of the figurative/apocalyptic language used in the Bible of things that have already happened. The Daniel passages, some parts of the Gospels, Revelation, etc. All that stuff is taken so literally by people and they create the most bizarre ideas.

which passages do you suggest have been taken literal? and at what point can we rule it a figurative or literal passage?

My overall point about Jesus and Isral is this - everything Jesus did had either a symbolic or direct meaning in redeeming Israel. People have to remember what was going on in Jerusalem when He lived. We place our culture and viewpoints on Jesus and make him something He was not.

The plan with Israel is very separate from the plan of the Church. There are so many things, as you've stated, that we misinterpret and it's very important to understand what was for Israel and what was for the Church. Christ made so many statements when he referred to the Church, and this was basically his aim, but there are also statements he made that directed specifically to Israel. Not everything he taught was conclusively directed to the Israelites of that time.

The Jews were convinced that God would deliver them from Rome and oppression, and most thought that meant rebuilding the Temple and military victory. The Qumran group - who provided the Dead Sea Scrolls i think - the Pharisees, King Herod. They were all trying to redeem Israel to God, and that kind of chaos and tension is what Jesus walked into.

True... and there are yet so many passages, when read are vaguely noticed, we see Christ fulfilling many of the prophecies mentioned through the Prophets. The Jews were waiting for the Messiah to come so that he may sit in the Temple... Christ fulfilled this prophecy in Luke 4:16-21(read when you can) And also the two men who were wandering on the road to Emmaus... they were actually hoping that Jesus would be the restorer of Israel but they had not known that Christ had already done that... so he begins to unveil the Laws and the Prophets that spoke about "himself"... (this is really the kinda stuff that i love about the Bible the most)

Jesus was a Revolutionary because He upended everything, brought salvation to Israel, extended it elsewhere, and completely undermined the political realities of Jewish society. His message was NOT, "Believe in me so you won't go to Hell." That may be a part of it, but it's not why He came. His message was, believe in me because MY version of the Kingdom is the one you've been waiting for.

And also, believe in me because I am what you were meant to be created for. Everything Jesus was, was exactly what God intended for every human individual.

I guess my point is, when we forget what was happening when Jesus lived, we project our own cultures in to fill in the gaps. Most people don't see Jesus' message as the restoration of a Kingdom that has room for all. They see it as a moralistic message of individual piety so you don't go to Hell. That is not what the Church is based on. The Pharisees were the most pious and "moral" people around, and God totally rejected their attempts at redemption.

I feel that we should also discuss the major differences between two kingdoms the Bible speaks about. One, is the kingdom of His beloved Son, and two, the Kingdom of God.

Everything about what Jesus did was counter-culture and counter-mainstream. Not only do you not hit back, you TURN THE OTHER CHEEK. Not only do you not sleep around, you don't even THINK lustfully. He turned the establishment on its head. My question about pacifism is related to that.

Like I asked before... when do you take the scriptures literally and when do you to take it metaphorically? Jesus also said, "if your right hand causes you to sin, cut it off and cast it from you." Do we take that literally? See, there are things that we must understand for the sake of understanding what we believe. When Jesus said turn the other cheek it was more of a mindset than it is a literal idea. Just like faith the size of a grain of mustard being able to move a mountain, so is the idea of chopping your hand off and turning the other cheek all metaphorical explanations to understand a greater lesson. Interestingly enough, it's in this same passage that Christ says, "You have heard that it was said to those of old, 'You shall not committ adultery,' But I say to you that whoever looks at a woman lustfully has already committed adultery with her in his heart." It's our mindset that we have to change rather than actually chopping off our hand, moving an entire mountain or turning the other cheek.

Are Christians simply projecting the cultures they've been raised in and molding Jesus into it? Do we truly embrace the radical message he preached? Do we truly bring the same kind of radical redemption to the world that Jesus brought to Israel, and everyone else?

I mean, what would people think if Christians got up and said, "Osama bin Laden, we forgive you because Christ forgave us. We love you because you are God's child. We will not fight back. We will not kill others."

To me, that sounds more like the kind of radical message Christ preached than somehow morphing conservative (or liberal) politics with Christ. Or being just as - or close to - concerned with being a good "patriot" as being a good CHristian, and seeing them as basically the same things.

Keep in mind, you are talking to a Conservative Republican. I voted for George Bush and have always been basically conservative in my view of the world. But some recent thinking and reading has made me question the idea that my Christianity could so easily adapt to something like the Republican/Democratic agenda. Jesus was a radical. Not in the sense of our radicals or our politics, but in the sense that he flipped it all upside down. And his Church was brutalized in Rome as a result. They were martyred, tortured, etc. Yet, the message lived on and spread. Now, we compare our faith to theirs when we are anything but radical. We endorse a sort of individual morality - which is a part of faith but not its basis - and a sort of private worship attitude. It's just not what Jesus preached, IMO. None of it. Not the Conservatism. Not the Leftist/Marxism. Not the hippie attitude. It's all been attached to Christ and it just doesn't fit....

Exactly! Where is the body of Christ? Is the body two blocks away from the nearest elementary school? Is it in the Vatican? Is it in New York at the Watch Towers? Is it involved in politics? Is our agenda really with Al-Qaeda, George Bush, the Taliban, the middle-east? Do our votings have to be based on the beliefs of the body of Christ? Do we even belong with politicians, govt's, republicans, conservatists and whatnot? Do we ever even ask ourselves these questions? You asked for radical thoughts, so here they are. We, as the body of Christ, have no business whatsoever in politics. Christ himself taught it.

My point is, the Church is where it belongs, right now in heavenly places in Christ sitting at the right hand of God. It's only a matter of us actually putting on the mind of Christ. And this to the point that we understand that it is not about legalism, it is not about an organized religion, it is not about fundamental christianity, it is not about doing an effort of doing good... it is about being it... something that Christ has already accomplished in our lives. As the scripture says, "For we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand that we should walk in them." Eph 2:10 He has accomplished perfection, he has accomplished righteousness in us. So how do we live this life? Easy...

Blessed is the man who walketh not in the counsel of the ungodly, nor stands in the way of the sinners, nor sits in the seat of the scornful, but his delight is in the Law of the Lord and in His Law does he meditate day and night. And he shall be like a tree planted by the rivers of waters that brings forth his fruit in his season, his leaf also shall not whither, and whatever he does shall prosper. Psalm 1

chopitdown

El_Kabong wrote:

never thought otherwise

all i'm saying is there aren't any in the mainstream saying these things, the ones in the mainstream seem to be advocating the opposite

There are a few. Rick Warren (pastor of Saddleback Community Church and author of the blockbuster book, The Purpose Driven Life) LeithAnderson ( pastor of a mega-church of 5,000 worshippers) Duane Litfin (president of Wheaton College) David Neff (editor Christianity Today); and Todd Bassett (national commander of the Salvation Army). Granted there are a few big names that haven't signed on, but b/c they haven't signed on doesn't mean they are advocating waste. And please don't use GWB to represent mainstream christians

http://www.liveearth.msn.com/green/religionpoll

VINNY GOOMBA

Great thread.

This is my problem with all the people out there who claim to be "Christians"... You can't truly be a Christian and believe that violence solves anything.

The worst part is, these people are the ones that wear the cross on their sleeve and try their and force it on everyone else. They really make us look bad, kind of like Jihadists make Muslims look bad.

If people want to evangelize, they should lead by example, and that starts with really understanding what they are teaching.

I think a lot of people make the mistake of automatically aligning Christianity with Conservatism, and therefore right-wing/republican. True Christian beliefs are probably just as liberal as they are conservative.

Teslarocker

cornnifer wrote:

The problem is, many of our Christian Brothers and Sisters like to cherrypick.

That is the perfect word for it. So many Christians remember things like "Man Shalt Not lie down with mankind". But they forget things like "Love Thy Neighbor" and "Turn The Other Cheek"