Basically, I understand the Christian theological perspective on war and just war. I've been a Christian all my life and plan on remaining one. I know Romans 13 is used to sort of justify the idea of letting the authority of government have its role and the church should go along with its own business. I'm not so sure that's really the way things should be and I'm not sure the NT ever really endorses violence at all, including ROmans 13.
I'm thinking more and more that because Christians have misunderstood salvation and the church's purpose, we have become so focused on the afterlife that it skews our handling of this world. The idea of salvation through Jesus - when you bring it up to most any Christian or non-Christian - is that you go to heaven, when you die. That's a part of it, but I think we are missing out on a huge aspect of salvation. That is, that the church is to represent the kingdom right now, on earth, here, immediately.
The church is what Jesus came and died to establish. If you know anything about the New Testament, that is the case. Jesus' goal - and everything he says in scripture shoudl be seen accordingly - was to establish a kingdom to bring salvation for Israel. (Not the modern day country, the Jews of his time). Everything he said, all the parables, all the healings, it ALL had at the least a symbolic tie into redeeming Israel to God. He was killed not because he was some hippie liberal who embraced the outsiders. (That's a part of his ministry, but people who claim Jesus was conservative or liberal are simply projecting their own culture on Him. He lived as a first-century Jew and in that culture.) He was killed because of his church and what it did. I think we forget to be the church he died for. We forget to be it today.
Jesus didnt' tell people, "Repent and Believe" as in confess your sins individually to go to heaven someday when you die. He told them, repent of your false view of god's Church on earth, and believe that my church is what God always intended. That's what was so exciting and radical and revolutionary. Is that what the church is today or is it simply a section of the culture that has adopted other ideologies or movements?
Anyway, my point is that the church is to deliver the world in the same way Christ delivered Israel. And it's hard for me to think the first Christians would endorse some of the nationalism and militaristic mindset of some of us to do that. The church spread in the beginning largely because of the martyrs who were massacred by the Romans. They didn't organize and fight back - which is what I would be tempted to do. They let themselves be killed in the worst ways imaginable, and the church spread like wildfire. Can we learn something from that?
Whatever the case with this issue, I think the church has lost her way in terms of being God's kingdom today, right now. So many have interpreted that to mean some physical, literal gain or institution. Rather, I think it means something far more spiritual and community oriented.
2000: Lubbock; 2003: OKC, Dallas, San Antonio; 2006: Los Angeles II, San Diego; 2008: Atlanta (EV Solo); 2012: Dallas (EV Solo); 2013: Dallas; 2014: Tulsa; 2018: Wrigley I
Progress is not made by everyone joining some new fad,
and reveling in it's loyalty. It's made by forming coalitions
over specific principles, goals, and policies.
i love the sheep comments, b/c from what i'm reading on here the people who don't like christianity or religion sure all sound the same and repeat the same things.
Basically, I understand the Christian theological perspective on war and just war. I've been a Christian all my life and plan on remaining one. I know Romans 13 is used to sort of justify the idea of letting the authority of government have its role and the church should go along with its own business. I'm not so sure that's really the way things should be and I'm not sure the NT ever really endorses violence at all, including ROmans 13.
I'm thinking more and more that because Christians have misunderstood salvation and the church's purpose, we have become so focused on the afterlife that it skews our handling of this world. The idea of salvation through Jesus - when you bring it up to most any Christian or non-Christian - is that you go to heaven, when you die. That's a part of it, but I think we are missing out on a huge aspect of salvation. That is, that the church is to represent the kingdom right now, on earth, here, immediately.
The church is what Jesus came and died to establish. If you know anything about the New Testament, that is the case. Jesus' goal - and everything he says in scripture shoudl be seen accordingly - was to establish a kingdom to bring salvation for Israel. (Not the modern day country, the Jews of his time). Everything he said, all the parables, all the healings, it ALL had at the least a symbolic tie into redeeming Israel to God. He was killed not because he was some hippie liberal who embraced the outsiders. (That's a part of his ministry, but people who claim Jesus was conservative or liberal are simply projecting their own culture on Him. He lived as a first-century Jew and in that culture.) He was killed because of his church and what it did. I think we forget to be the church he died for. We forget to be it today.
Jesus didnt' tell people, "Repent and Believe" as in confess your sins individually to go to heaven someday when you die. He told them, repent of your false view of god's Church on earth, and believe that my church is what God always intended. That's what was so exciting and radical and revolutionary. Is that what the church is today or is it simply a section of the culture that has adopted other ideologies or movements?
Anyway, my point is that the church is to deliver the world in the same way Christ delivered Israel. And it's hard for me to think the first Christians would endorse some of the nationalism and militaristic mindset of some of us to do that. The church spread in the beginning largely because of the martyrs who were massacred by the Romans. They didn't organize and fight back - which is what I would be tempted to do. They let themselves be killed in the worst ways imaginable, and the church spread like wildfire. Can we learn something from that?
Whatever the case with this issue, I think the church has lost her way in terms of being God's kingdom today, right now. So many have interpreted that to mean some physical, literal gain or institution. Rather, I think it means something far more spiritual and community oriented.
it's not the questions that frustrate me, and you'll notice i wasn't quoting you.
The question is a tough one though. If Jesus Christ was perfect, and our goal is to build a more Christ-like character...if we're taught to ask ourselves "what would Jesus do?"...then shouldn't we be against war and against killing at all costs, even if it comes down to letting someone kill us, maybe even crucify us?
Jesus did teach to turn the other cheek, but he also taught to stand up for what is right. He drove the moneychangers out of the temple. The question your asking has been debated in Christian circles for a long time. There are a few denominations that are very pacifist; the majority hold the view that you should never WANT war, never WANT violence; however, there are unavoidable times. Take for instance WWII (it's an easy one) there was a terrible person doing terrible things and killing people, i don't believe God wants us to look at injustice and not do anything about it. No where does God say to sit on your hands and watch others suffer and be killed. I would agree that a pre-emptive war is a lot harder to justify, and it should always be the last resort. My thought for a person, not a country, is that you should do everything in your power to not resort to violence against someone else and you shouldn't go around picking a fight; but if someone won't just back down sometimes you have to resort to violence to protect yourself and your family. But there are people who would disagree with my view, and that's ok.
make sure the fortune that you seek...is the fortune that you need
Threads like these make me laugh, the poster of this type of thread is the type of person who then turns around and asks "why didn't the catholic church do more in WWII?".
Part of growing up is realizing we are all hypocrites and our actions do not always demosntrate our beliefs. That part of being human is to do our best while never being perfect. Most of us do okay until we have contrasting beliefs and wants, i.e. I want to live and believe killing is wrong, how do I react in a fight or die situation?
A bigger part of growing up is to occassionally stop pointing out the hypocracy in others and look inwards. And then work to resolve these and limit them. Sometimes I think Pearl Jam must have a very young audience based on some of these threads.
“One good thing about music,
when it hits you, you feel to pain.
So brutalize me with music.”
~ Bob Marley
Well, as I said, I was raised Catholic, so I know a fair amount... Me and a friend gave our religion teacher hell a few years ago, because we knew a lot about religion, but were blatantly atheist, and just kept stirring shit up.:D
So I guess it's not so much the Bible that I'm wondering about. My question to you is exactly the one I posted. Does faith have a context? Does the message one takes from the Bible (Old vs. New Testament, forgiveness vs. "church discipline") vary from situation to situation ?
i'm having a hard time understanding your question. does faith have a context? in what way? i can speak about faith in a biblical way, or i can speak about it in a philisophical way... or tie them both together. Does the message vary from situation to situation? Like how? i'm not sure what you're asking. i mean, i could say, no, the message doesn't vary from situation to situation. the message is still the same... but i need to make sure what you're asking before i can answer you with a more elaborate one.
This isn't the land of opportunity, it's the land of competition.
This is funny. Why don't you (a christian) interpret the verses he cited. And in case you didn't know, education is good. So it pays to learn about both sides.
Anyway, what would Jesus NOT do?
Spunk graffiti.
well, it only depends...
he used two contexts one that said, "I and my Father are one."
and the other scripture was Jesus speaking to God one on one. These are very spiritual meanings. As you know, i'm always wasting my time sharing scriptures here and giving their meanings, so is that what you're asking me to do? Cause that's what it requires. And i'm sure that many will disagree with me, even other Christians, but Jesus is not God. and the scripture that say I and my Father are one doesn't mean that. it's a spiritual meaning.
This isn't the land of opportunity, it's the land of competition.
Anyway, my point is that the church is to deliver the world in the same way Christ delivered Israel. And it's hard for me to think the first Christians would endorse some of the nationalism and militaristic mindset of some of us to do that. The church spread in the beginning largely because of the martyrs who were massacred by the Romans. They didn't organize and fight back - which is what I would be tempted to do. They let themselves be killed in the worst ways imaginable, and the church spread like wildfire. Can we learn something from that?
Whatever the case with this issue, I think the church has lost her way in terms of being God's kingdom today, right now. So many have interpreted that to mean some physical, literal gain or institution. Rather, I think it means something far more spiritual and community oriented.
Very interesting thread, ArmsinaV. You raise some valid points. I found your reference to nationalism particularly interesting. I'm reminded of the parable of the Good Samaritan, where Jesus praised the morality of a hated foreigner over his own countrymen.(Luke 10:30-37.)
The greatest obstacle to discovery is not ignorance,
but the illusion of knowledge.
~Daniel Boorstin
Only a life lived for others is worth living.
~Albert Einstein
Basically, I understand the Christian theological perspective on war and just war. I've been a Christian all my life and plan on remaining one. I know Romans 13 is used to sort of justify the idea of letting the authority of government have its role and the church should go along with its own business. I'm not so sure that's really the way things should be and I'm not sure the NT ever really endorses violence at all, including ROmans 13.
I'm thinking more and more that because Christians have misunderstood salvation and the church's purpose, we have become so focused on the afterlife that it skews our handling of this world. The idea of salvation through Jesus - when you bring it up to most any Christian or non-Christian - is that you go to heaven, when you die. That's a part of it, but I think we are missing out on a huge aspect of salvation. That is, that the church is to represent the kingdom right now, on earth, here, immediately.
The church is what Jesus came and died to establish. If you know anything about the New Testament, that is the case. Jesus' goal - and everything he says in scripture shoudl be seen accordingly - was to establish a kingdom to bring salvation for Israel. (Not the modern day country, the Jews of his time). Everything he said, all the parables, all the healings, it ALL had at the least a symbolic tie into redeeming Israel to God. He was killed not because he was some hippie liberal who embraced the outsiders. (That's a part of his ministry, but people who claim Jesus was conservative or liberal are simply projecting their own culture on Him. He lived as a first-century Jew and in that culture.) He was killed because of his church and what it did. I think we forget to be the church he died for. We forget to be it today.
Jesus didnt' tell people, "Repent and Believe" as in confess your sins individually to go to heaven someday when you die. He told them, repent of your false view of god's Church on earth, and believe that my church is what God always intended. That's what was so exciting and radical and revolutionary. Is that what the church is today or is it simply a section of the culture that has adopted other ideologies or movements?
Anyway, my point is that the church is to deliver the world in the same way Christ delivered Israel. And it's hard for me to think the first Christians would endorse some of the nationalism and militaristic mindset of some of us to do that. The church spread in the beginning largely because of the martyrs who were massacred by the Romans. They didn't organize and fight back - which is what I would be tempted to do. They let themselves be killed in the worst ways imaginable, and the church spread like wildfire. Can we learn something from that?
Whatever the case with this issue, I think the church has lost her way in terms of being God's kingdom today, right now. So many have interpreted that to mean some physical, literal gain or institution. Rather, I think it means something far more spiritual and community oriented.
absolutely... it's what i'm trying to get at. but i don't think the church has necessarily lost it's way... the church is where it belongs, Ephesians 1:3
This isn't the land of opportunity, it's the land of competition.
absolutely... it's what i'm trying to get at. but i don't think the church has necessarily lost it's way... the church is where it belongs, Ephesians 1:3
So you agree that there's basically no room for killing in Christianity?
So you agree that there's basically no room for killing in Christianity?
well, first of all, don't want to get too technical here but what is christianity?
if christianity condone's killing, which apparently, it's true, then technically, there's a whole lot of room for killing in christianity. but as far as christ offers, which isn't christianity, there's absolutely no room for killing.
This isn't the land of opportunity, it's the land of competition.
well, first of all, don't want to get too technical here but what is christianity?
if christianity condone's killing, which apparently, it's true, then technically, there's a whole lot of room for killing in christianity. but as far as christ offers, which isn't christianity, there's absolutely no room for killing.
Here's what I think - Few people on this planet follow Christianity. I'm not saying you have to be perfect to be a Christian, but I'm claiming today that a Christian should not ever support a war.
What's really happened? You yourself even discern Christianity from what Christ offers. I think many people who claim to be Christians separate the two as well. And what we end up with is a billion or so fucked up people who claim to be Christians when they can't even see that the basis of Christianity is peace and love.
Here's what I think - Few people on this planet follow Christianity. I'm not saying you have to be perfect to be a Christian, but I'm claiming today that a Christian should not ever support a war.
What's really happened? You yourself even discern Christianity from what Christ offers. I think many people who claim to be Christians separate the two as well. And what we end up with is a billion or so fucked up people who claim to be Christians when they can't even see that the basis of Christianity is peace and love.
yes, but you're making it more complicated than it is. Christianity is a form of religion. Christianity can follow the teachings of Christ all they want... it doesn't matter to me, cause if Christianity condone's killing, which again it does, then it's not really following Christ's teachings.
How can I explain this to you? Christianity is an organized religion.... as for what Christ offers, it's a spiritual thing.... nothing similar. Really, I don't know what it takes to be a Christian... does wikipedia have that info too?
The first time ever the word Christian was used is found in Acts. And it was speaking about a particular kind of people who lived their daily lives just like Jesus lived. Traditionally speaking. That is their schedule was fit to the schedule of Jesus. The entire group of Jesus believers have then been labeled as Christians.... but what is christianity exactly? Just something invented by society... the catholic church, maybe? You got Jehovah's Witnesses who claim to be the "true" christians, then Catholics say vice versa. So what is christianity really? Gather all the denominations and none of 'em will agree on the teachings of Jesus and what his plan was. What Christ came to do for humanity, wasn't to establish christianity, it was to make us children of God. That is what I am, a child of God, not a christian.
This isn't the land of opportunity, it's the land of competition.
yes, but you're making it more complicated than it is. Christianity is a form of religion. Christianity can follow the teachings of Christ all they want... it doesn't matter to me, cause if Christianity condone's killing, which again it does, then it's not really following Christ's teachings.
How can I explain this to you? Christianity is an organized religion.... as for what Christ offers, it's a spiritual thing.... nothing similar. Really, I don't know what it takes to be a Christian... does wikipedia have that info too?
The first time ever the word Christian was used is found in Acts. And it was speaking about a particular kind of people who lived their daily lives just like Jesus lived. Traditionally speaking. That is their schedule was fit to the schedule of Jesus. The entire group of Jesus believers have then been labeled as Christians.... but what is christianity exactly? Just something invented by society... the catholic church, maybe? You got Jehovah's Witnesses who claim to be the "true" christians, then Catholics say vice versa. So what is christianity really? Gather all the denominations and none of 'em will agree on the teachings of Jesus and what his plan was. What Christ came to do for humanity, wasn't to establish christianity, it was to make us children of God. That is what I am, a child of God, not a christian.
Yes, but Jesus clearly came to create a kingdom. His kingdom is the reason he came and, following with first-century Judaism culture and beliefs, what he died to establish. He redeemed Israel to God through His church.
So he did come to establish the Church, even if you don't want to call it Christianity per se.
2000: Lubbock; 2003: OKC, Dallas, San Antonio; 2006: Los Angeles II, San Diego; 2008: Atlanta (EV Solo); 2012: Dallas (EV Solo); 2013: Dallas; 2014: Tulsa; 2018: Wrigley I
Very interesting thread, ArmsinaV. You raise some valid points. I found your reference to nationalism particularly interesting. I'm reminded of the parable of the Good Samaritan, where Jesus praised the morality of a hated foreigner over his own countrymen.(Luke 10:30-37.)
Thanks.
I'm disturbed that, literally, some churches blend America with their worship. They think America is a Christian Nation, blessed by God. I think America is greatly blessed materially, but I don't think this is a Christian nation. I don't believe that you have to be patriotic to be a Christian. There are so many references to America in church sermons that I just find oddly out of place. Don't get me started on the misuse of Revelation, biblical "prophecies", and those who call on America to intervene or act in accordance to the Bible....
When you follow Christ, there is no "Jew or Greek, male or female, etc."
2000: Lubbock; 2003: OKC, Dallas, San Antonio; 2006: Los Angeles II, San Diego; 2008: Atlanta (EV Solo); 2012: Dallas (EV Solo); 2013: Dallas; 2014: Tulsa; 2018: Wrigley I
yes, but you're making it more complicated than it is. Christianity is a form of religion. Christianity can follow the teachings of Christ all they want... it doesn't matter to me, cause if Christianity condone's killing, which again it does, then it's not really following Christ's teachings.
How can I explain this to you? Christianity is an organized religion.... as for what Christ offers, it's a spiritual thing.... nothing similar. Really, I don't know what it takes to be a Christian... does wikipedia have that info too?
The first time ever the word Christian was used is found in Acts. And it was speaking about a particular kind of people who lived their daily lives just like Jesus lived. Traditionally speaking. That is their schedule was fit to the schedule of Jesus. The entire group of Jesus believers have then been labeled as Christians.... but what is christianity exactly? Just something invented by society... the catholic church, maybe? You got Jehovah's Witnesses who claim to be the "true" christians, then Catholics say vice versa. So what is christianity really? Gather all the denominations and none of 'em will agree on the teachings of Jesus and what his plan was. What Christ came to do for humanity, wasn't to establish christianity, it was to make us children of God. That is what I am, a child of God, not a christian.
No, no, no. I'm not making it more difficult than it is. Christianity is not undefined, as you imply. Christianity is following the teachings of Jesus Christ.
Having said that, I believe Christianity isn't nearly as large or wide-spread as anyone here thinks. Everyone these days has his or her own religion claiming to be Christians. If everyone who claimed to be a Christian actually believed in Christianity then we would have peace on this planet. The truth? I don't claim to be a Christian. Yet I believe I try harder than many people on this planet to follow what he taught and believed in, which is first and foremost, peace and love. Yet they claim to be Christians. It's absolutely insane. There is no room for killing - even in war, when peace and love are the priorities.
Yes, but Jesus clearly came to create a kingdom. His kingdom is the reason he came and, following with first-century Judaism culture and beliefs, what he died to establish. He redeemed Israel to God through His church.
So he did come to establish the Church, even if you don't want to call it Christianity per se.
absolutely, he came to establish a kingdom. a kingdom that doesn't get involved with politics... a kingdom that is not confused.... a kingdom that judges no one.... a kingdom that does not support killing.... not a religion. And for the record, christianity is a religion regardless of how you look at it.
He did not establish christianity... it's just a name given to us by "unbelievers" to identify with us. But as far as Christ is concerned, he doesn't know us as christians. And never once did he use the word. It's funny that Historychannle.com actually holds Jesus as the founder of Christianity.
and he did not redeem Israel... the bible never says it. He redeemed humanity. Israel still has certain things pending and they have not claimed Christ as the true Messiah.
This isn't the land of opportunity, it's the land of competition.
No, no, no. I'm not making it more difficult than it is. Christianity is not undefined, as you imply. Christianity is following the teachings of Jesus Christ.
Having said that, I believe Christianity isn't nearly as large or wide-spread as anyone here thinks. Everyone these days has his or her own religion claiming to be Christians. If everyone who claimed to be a Christian actually believed in Christianity then we would have peace on this planet. The truth? I don't claim to be a Christian. Yet I believe I try harder than many people on this planet to follow what he taught and believed in, which is first and foremost, peace and love. Yet they claim to be Christians. It's absolutely insane. There is no room for killing - even in war, when peace and love are the priorities.
Christianity is not following the teachings of Jesus Christ... no matter how you put it. The bible doesn't say it. The bible calls them sons of God. Christianity is merely a religion... a confusing religion, might i say.
This isn't the land of opportunity, it's the land of competition.
I'm disturbed that, literally, some churches blend America with their worship. They think America is a Christian Nation, blessed by God. I think America is greatly blessed materially, but I don't think this is a Christian nation. I don't believe that you have to be patriotic to be a Christian. There are so many references to America in church sermons that I just find oddly out of place. Don't get me started on the misuse of Revelation, biblical "prophecies", and those who call on America to intervene or act in accordance to the Bible....
When you follow Christ, there is no "Jew or Greek, male or female, etc."
exactly... and there is neither Christian, non-christian.
This isn't the land of opportunity, it's the land of competition.
then if that's what mainstream christians believe, i'm glad i'm not one of them... i guess, at this point i can draw a line between them that know how to read the bible right and those that don't. and those that justify war by mixing those scriptures have it all wrong.
War, under certain conditions, is not only justifiable but a moral obligation.
IMO, for instance, the U.S. was morally obligated to enter WWII, in order to save lives and defeat an evil. The only thing evil needs to exist is for good men to do nothing, and what not.
So I don't believe it's fair to blanket ALL war as right or wrong, just or unjust. There IS such a thing as a just war. It's just deciding what that is that's the tricky part.
everybody wants the most they can possibly get
for the least they could possibly do
They think America is a Christian Nation, blessed by God.
I think a lot of this thinking comes from the Old Testament, where God basically says a friend of Israel is a friend of mine, and that he will bless any nation that blesses Israel.
Seeing as we're pretty much the only official friend Israel has left -- and that the time of America's great prosperity came after aligning ourselves with Israel post-WW II -- I think a lot of churches see that as proof of a prophecy coming true.
everybody wants the most they can possibly get
for the least they could possibly do
War, under certain conditions, is not only justifiable but a moral obligation.
IMO, the U.S. was morally obligated to enter WWII, in order to save lives and defeat an evil. The only thing evil needs to exist is for good men to do nothing, and what not.
So I don't believe it's fair to blanket ALL war as right or wrong, just or unjust. There IS such a thing as a just war. It's just deciding what that is that's the tricky part.
if you want to call it a just war, go right ahead. in essence, the bible does say there will be wars, famines, and all that stuff... but to say that the church should be involved... you couldn't ever be more wrong. the bible only says to pray for our governments and those who are at war, it never condone's war.
This isn't the land of opportunity, it's the land of competition.
I think a lot of this thinking comes from the Old Testament, where God basically says a friend of Israel is a friend of mine, and that he will bless any nation that blesses Israel.
Seeing as we're pretty much the only official friend Israel has left -- and that the time of America's great prosperity came after aligning ourselves with Israel post-WW II -- I think a lot of churches see that as proof of a prophecy coming true.
now this i agree, to some extent.
This isn't the land of opportunity, it's the land of competition.
if you want to call it a just war, go right ahead. in essence, the bible does say there will be wars, famines, and all that stuff... but to say that the church should be involved... you couldn't ever be more wrong.
I'm not saying the church should be involved.
I'm just saying individual Christians CAN justify supporting a war under certain conditions, without being huge, giant hypocrites. That's all I'm saying. In fact, that's all I'm been saying since the beginning of this monstrosity of a thread.
I'm not necessarily saying that applies to this war or that it doesn't apply to this war. Just theoretically.
everybody wants the most they can possibly get
for the least they could possibly do
I'm just saying individual Christians CAN justify supporting a war under certain conditions, without being huge, giant hypocrites. That's all I'm saying. In fact, that's all I'm been saying since the beginning of this monstrosity of a thread.
I'm not necessarily saying that applies to this war or that it doesn't apply to this war. Just theoretically.
if individuals want to support war, there is a major difference, but we cannot use the bible to justify our support thereof.
This isn't the land of opportunity, it's the land of competition.
Comments
Basically, I understand the Christian theological perspective on war and just war. I've been a Christian all my life and plan on remaining one. I know Romans 13 is used to sort of justify the idea of letting the authority of government have its role and the church should go along with its own business. I'm not so sure that's really the way things should be and I'm not sure the NT ever really endorses violence at all, including ROmans 13.
I'm thinking more and more that because Christians have misunderstood salvation and the church's purpose, we have become so focused on the afterlife that it skews our handling of this world. The idea of salvation through Jesus - when you bring it up to most any Christian or non-Christian - is that you go to heaven, when you die. That's a part of it, but I think we are missing out on a huge aspect of salvation. That is, that the church is to represent the kingdom right now, on earth, here, immediately.
The church is what Jesus came and died to establish. If you know anything about the New Testament, that is the case. Jesus' goal - and everything he says in scripture shoudl be seen accordingly - was to establish a kingdom to bring salvation for Israel. (Not the modern day country, the Jews of his time). Everything he said, all the parables, all the healings, it ALL had at the least a symbolic tie into redeeming Israel to God. He was killed not because he was some hippie liberal who embraced the outsiders. (That's a part of his ministry, but people who claim Jesus was conservative or liberal are simply projecting their own culture on Him. He lived as a first-century Jew and in that culture.) He was killed because of his church and what it did. I think we forget to be the church he died for. We forget to be it today.
Jesus didnt' tell people, "Repent and Believe" as in confess your sins individually to go to heaven someday when you die. He told them, repent of your false view of god's Church on earth, and believe that my church is what God always intended. That's what was so exciting and radical and revolutionary. Is that what the church is today or is it simply a section of the culture that has adopted other ideologies or movements?
Anyway, my point is that the church is to deliver the world in the same way Christ delivered Israel. And it's hard for me to think the first Christians would endorse some of the nationalism and militaristic mindset of some of us to do that. The church spread in the beginning largely because of the martyrs who were massacred by the Romans. They didn't organize and fight back - which is what I would be tempted to do. They let themselves be killed in the worst ways imaginable, and the church spread like wildfire. Can we learn something from that?
Whatever the case with this issue, I think the church has lost her way in terms of being God's kingdom today, right now. So many have interpreted that to mean some physical, literal gain or institution. Rather, I think it means something far more spiritual and community oriented.
http://www.shoutfile.com/v/aqqmRKSb/Great_New_Richard_Dawkins_Interview
and reveling in it's loyalty. It's made by forming coalitions
over specific principles, goals, and policies.
http://i36.tinypic.com/66j31x.jpg
(\__/)
( o.O)
(")_(")
post.
ever.
it's not the questions that frustrate me, and you'll notice i wasn't quoting you.
The question is a tough one though. If Jesus Christ was perfect, and our goal is to build a more Christ-like character...if we're taught to ask ourselves "what would Jesus do?"...then shouldn't we be against war and against killing at all costs, even if it comes down to letting someone kill us, maybe even crucify us?
Jesus did teach to turn the other cheek, but he also taught to stand up for what is right. He drove the moneychangers out of the temple. The question your asking has been debated in Christian circles for a long time. There are a few denominations that are very pacifist; the majority hold the view that you should never WANT war, never WANT violence; however, there are unavoidable times. Take for instance WWII (it's an easy one) there was a terrible person doing terrible things and killing people, i don't believe God wants us to look at injustice and not do anything about it. No where does God say to sit on your hands and watch others suffer and be killed. I would agree that a pre-emptive war is a lot harder to justify, and it should always be the last resort. My thought for a person, not a country, is that you should do everything in your power to not resort to violence against someone else and you shouldn't go around picking a fight; but if someone won't just back down sometimes you have to resort to violence to protect yourself and your family. But there are people who would disagree with my view, and that's ok.
Part of growing up is realizing we are all hypocrites and our actions do not always demosntrate our beliefs. That part of being human is to do our best while never being perfect. Most of us do okay until we have contrasting beliefs and wants, i.e. I want to live and believe killing is wrong, how do I react in a fight or die situation?
A bigger part of growing up is to occassionally stop pointing out the hypocracy in others and look inwards. And then work to resolve these and limit them. Sometimes I think Pearl Jam must have a very young audience based on some of these threads.
when it hits you, you feel to pain.
So brutalize me with music.”
~ Bob Marley
he used two contexts one that said, "I and my Father are one."
and the other scripture was Jesus speaking to God one on one. These are very spiritual meanings. As you know, i'm always wasting my time sharing scriptures here and giving their meanings, so is that what you're asking me to do? Cause that's what it requires. And i'm sure that many will disagree with me, even other Christians, but Jesus is not God. and the scripture that say I and my Father are one doesn't mean that. it's a spiritual meaning.
Very interesting thread, ArmsinaV. You raise some valid points. I found your reference to nationalism particularly interesting. I'm reminded of the parable of the Good Samaritan, where Jesus praised the morality of a hated foreigner over his own countrymen.(Luke 10:30-37.)
but the illusion of knowledge.
~Daniel Boorstin
Only a life lived for others is worth living.
~Albert Einstein
if christianity condone's killing, which apparently, it's true, then technically, there's a whole lot of room for killing in christianity. but as far as christ offers, which isn't christianity, there's absolutely no room for killing.
Here's what I think - Few people on this planet follow Christianity. I'm not saying you have to be perfect to be a Christian, but I'm claiming today that a Christian should not ever support a war.
What's really happened? You yourself even discern Christianity from what Christ offers. I think many people who claim to be Christians separate the two as well. And what we end up with is a billion or so fucked up people who claim to be Christians when they can't even see that the basis of Christianity is peace and love.
How can I explain this to you? Christianity is an organized religion.... as for what Christ offers, it's a spiritual thing.... nothing similar. Really, I don't know what it takes to be a Christian... does wikipedia have that info too?
The first time ever the word Christian was used is found in Acts. And it was speaking about a particular kind of people who lived their daily lives just like Jesus lived. Traditionally speaking. That is their schedule was fit to the schedule of Jesus. The entire group of Jesus believers have then been labeled as Christians.... but what is christianity exactly? Just something invented by society... the catholic church, maybe? You got Jehovah's Witnesses who claim to be the "true" christians, then Catholics say vice versa. So what is christianity really? Gather all the denominations and none of 'em will agree on the teachings of Jesus and what his plan was. What Christ came to do for humanity, wasn't to establish christianity, it was to make us children of God. That is what I am, a child of God, not a christian.
Yes, but Jesus clearly came to create a kingdom. His kingdom is the reason he came and, following with first-century Judaism culture and beliefs, what he died to establish. He redeemed Israel to God through His church.
So he did come to establish the Church, even if you don't want to call it Christianity per se.
Thanks.
I'm disturbed that, literally, some churches blend America with their worship. They think America is a Christian Nation, blessed by God. I think America is greatly blessed materially, but I don't think this is a Christian nation. I don't believe that you have to be patriotic to be a Christian. There are so many references to America in church sermons that I just find oddly out of place. Don't get me started on the misuse of Revelation, biblical "prophecies", and those who call on America to intervene or act in accordance to the Bible....
When you follow Christ, there is no "Jew or Greek, male or female, etc."
Having said that, I believe Christianity isn't nearly as large or wide-spread as anyone here thinks. Everyone these days has his or her own religion claiming to be Christians. If everyone who claimed to be a Christian actually believed in Christianity then we would have peace on this planet. The truth? I don't claim to be a Christian. Yet I believe I try harder than many people on this planet to follow what he taught and believed in, which is first and foremost, peace and love. Yet they claim to be Christians. It's absolutely insane. There is no room for killing - even in war, when peace and love are the priorities.
He did not establish christianity... it's just a name given to us by "unbelievers" to identify with us. But as far as Christ is concerned, he doesn't know us as christians. And never once did he use the word. It's funny that Historychannle.com actually holds Jesus as the founder of Christianity.
and he did not redeem Israel... the bible never says it. He redeemed humanity. Israel still has certain things pending and they have not claimed Christ as the true Messiah.
War, under certain conditions, is not only justifiable but a moral obligation.
IMO, for instance, the U.S. was morally obligated to enter WWII, in order to save lives and defeat an evil. The only thing evil needs to exist is for good men to do nothing, and what not.
So I don't believe it's fair to blanket ALL war as right or wrong, just or unjust. There IS such a thing as a just war. It's just deciding what that is that's the tricky part.
for the least they could possibly do
I think a lot of this thinking comes from the Old Testament, where God basically says a friend of Israel is a friend of mine, and that he will bless any nation that blesses Israel.
Seeing as we're pretty much the only official friend Israel has left -- and that the time of America's great prosperity came after aligning ourselves with Israel post-WW II -- I think a lot of churches see that as proof of a prophecy coming true.
for the least they could possibly do
I'm not saying the church should be involved.
I'm just saying individual Christians CAN justify supporting a war under certain conditions, without being huge, giant hypocrites. That's all I'm saying. In fact, that's all I'm been saying since the beginning of this monstrosity of a thread.
I'm not necessarily saying that applies to this war or that it doesn't apply to this war. Just theoretically.
for the least they could possibly do
sure you can. Like anything, it's all in the interpretation.
for the least they could possibly do