Why aren't Christians pacifists?

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  • RolandTD20Kdrummer
    RolandTD20Kdrummer Posts: 13,066
    bootlegger10 wrote:
    The media has nothing to do with how I view religion. Their must be a conspiracy for someone to think differently from you, right?

    The Ten Commandments are from the Old Testament. There were wars fought by God and His people in the Old Testament. Yeah, it is a weak argument that says Christians can support a war. Quit acting and thinking like a child because you are not getting your way.

    People that profess to be good honest people don't promote violence as a means to solve their problems. Period. However the media has fed it wonderfully to you to rationalize and justify for years now

    back to your plate of hay..
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  • Rhinocerous Surprise
    Rhinocerous Surprise Posts: 4,423
    bootlegger10 wrote:
    Who said it sends a conflicted message? You? What about context?

    Well, you said yourself (and I paraphrase;)), the Old Testament stars Vengeful God, New Testament stars Peace-nik Jesus. I'm assuming they give out different messages (I must admit, I haven't read the Bible. Shocker.)

    And what about context? Does faith have context a lot of the time? (Genuine question.)

    I don't know, I was pretty indifferent towards the Catholic church until recently, when I saw a couple of articles in a local Catholic newspaper type thingy.

    Links: This thingy and these thingies.

    For me, I grew up Catholic until I hit my very early teens, at which point I started questioning a lot of it, and went atheist. Reading this kind of crap (the newspaper stuff, not you guys) just kinda reinforces all my doubts about religious zealotry.
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  • Byrnzie
    Byrnzie Posts: 21,037
    Fuck the bible. It's just a book.
    And fuck the church too. It's just bricks and mortar, and money, and power.

    There was only one Christian, and he died on the cross. He didn't follow any religion, he didn't attend any church, and he didn't cling to the words in any book. He lived - if indeed any such character ever did live, as there's zero evidence that he did - in order to serve as an example to others.
    The first 'Christians', and those who adhered to 'the life of Christ' more-so than any other, were the scattered groups of Gnostics who lived around the red sea area about 2000 years ago. The Essenes were one such group. Their beliefs, as evidenced in the Gospel of Thomas for example, speak of seeking direct contact with God, unmediated by any book, or Church, or religious creed. Real 'Christians' are mystics, and philosophers. These people we see attending Church services, waving the stars and stripes, supporting George fucking Bush, preaching prejudice and superiority, filling the coffers of their local evangelist - these aren't Christians. They're idiots.
  • slightofjeff
    slightofjeff Posts: 7,762
    RolandTD20Kdrummer wrote:
    People that profess to be good honest people don't promote violence as a means to solve their problems. .

    Religion aside, violence has solved a shitload of problems in the history of the world. Just ask the Jews who didn't get exterminated after WWII.
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  • Eliot Rosewater
    Eliot Rosewater Posts: 2,659
    I'm addicted to reading Kurt Vonnegut these days. He's not a Christian. Yet he often refers to the Sermon on the Mount and I believe he tried to live a good life because of it. All people Christian or non-Christian would do well to do the same.

    Having said that...I've often wondered how Christians ever justify war or killing or anything hostile whatsoever. I've asked many Christians and none could answer the following question. If Jesus Christ was perfect, and our goal is to build a more Christ-like character...if we're taught to ask ourselves "what would Jesus do?"...then shouldn't we be against war and against killing at all costs, even if it comes down to letting someone kill us, maybe even crucify us?

    The way I see it, Christianity leaves ZERO room for preemptive strikes, or even killing in self-defense. Say what you want about anything else in the bible. Christianity is following the teachings of Jesus Christ. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Christianity
  • slightofjeff
    slightofjeff Posts: 7,762
    don't gimme no wrote:
    I'm addicted to reading Kurt Vonnegut these days. He's not a Christian. Yet he often refers to the Sermon on the Mount and I believe he tried to live a good life because of it. All people Christian or non-Christian would do well to do the same.

    Having said that...I've often wondered how Christians ever justify war or killing or anything hostile whatsoever. I've asked many Christians and none could answer the following question. If Jesus Christ was perfect, and our goal is to build a more Christ-like character...if we're taught to ask ourselves "what would Jesus do?"...then shouldn't we be against war and against killing at all costs, even if it comes down to letting someone kill us, maybe even crucify us?

    The way I see it, Christianity leaves ZERO room for preemptive strikes, or even killing in self-defense. Say what you want about anything else in the bible. Christianity is following the teachings of Jesus Christ.
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Christianity

    Christ, according to Christians, was crucified for a greater purpose (to redeem the sins of mankind). He doesn't purport that all Christians take unnecessary beatings or face death for no reason. Otherwise, there would probably be no Christians left on earth. On certain occasions, in fact, he advocated kicking ass and taking names. Just ask the money changers and the Temple. He didn't just ignore them, gypping the poor. He up and kicked their ass.

    There is a Christian principle called "just war." In order for a war to be considered "just" it must meet several criteria. It must have a just cause (either recouping something taken or punishing a wrong). There must be comparative justice (ie, the punishment must fit the crime); It must be waged by a legitimate authority (meaning you or I can't raise an army to go attack Iran or something). There must be some probability of success. And it must be used as a last resort.

    Now, we can argue to death whether this current conflict does or does not meet that criteria. That's not the point of this thread, or this post. But to say Christians can't support ANY war at ANY time is not quite accurate under Christian theology.
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  • Eliot Rosewater
    Eliot Rosewater Posts: 2,659
    slightofjeff wrote:
    But to say Christians can't support ANY war at ANY time is not quite accurate under Christian theology.
    That's just your version.
  • slightofjeff
    slightofjeff Posts: 7,762
    don't gimme no wrote:
    That's just your version.

    Well, I didn't make it up. It's theology that dates back to ancient Greece. :)

    I'm just showing you how a Christian can justify war, under certain conditions.
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  • Gary Carter
    Gary Carter Posts: 14,077
    don't gimme no wrote:
    That's just your version.
    no its the truth, the average christian doesnt support war, they only support it now cause the jackass's in DC brainwashed them to believing that muslims are bad and all that other right wing crap. when i was catholic i was a pacifists cause i was taught to love thy neighbor
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  • slightofjeff
    slightofjeff Posts: 7,762
    metsfan531941 wrote:
    no its the truth, the average christian doesnt support war, they only support it now cause the jackass's in DC brainwashed them to believing that muslims are bad and all that other right wing crap. when i was catholic i was a pacifists cause i was taught to love thy neighbor

    Most of the war-supporters I know don't think all Muslims are bad. Just the Muslims who keep trying to blow them up.

    But then again, I run with a slightly more enlightened crowd :)
    everybody wants the most they can possibly get
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  • Eliot Rosewater
    Eliot Rosewater Posts: 2,659
    slightofjeff wrote:
    Christ, according to Christians, was crucified for a greater purpose (to redeem the sins of mankind). He doesn't purport that all Christians take unnecessary beatings or face death for no reason. Otherwise, there would probably be no Christians left on earth. On certain occasions, in fact, he advocated kicking ass and taking names. Just ask the money changers and the Temple. He didn't just ignore them, gypping the poor. He up and kicked their ass.
    Oh yeah, I forgot that murdering spree in the temple. Wait, he didn't kill them, he just hurt them. Maybe that's how Christians justify torture, but I still don't get the killing.

    Tell me how the WWJD? comes into play? Because if we're honest with ourselves when asking that question, we'd all rather be killed than kill. That's what I've learned from the Christian storybooks. And it's actually a good lesson IMO. That coming from a non-Christian.

    The message of Jesus Christ is a great one. Whether it be real or fiction. But his message wasn't to kill. Here's a pretty good idea of what he taught, just in case anyone was wondering....

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sermon_on_the_Mount

    Note the emphasis on "resist not evil" http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Non-resistance

    and "turn the other cheek" http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Turn_the_other_cheek
  • catefrances
    catefrances Posts: 29,003
    metsfan531941 wrote:
    no its the truth, the average christian doesnt support war, they only support it now cause the jackass's in DC brainwashed them to believing that muslims are bad and all that other right wing crap. when i was catholic i was a pacifists cause i was taught to love thy neighbor

    then in fact they do support the war. it matters not how they came to that conviction. if you can not think for yourself then you're basically screwed anyway.
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  • slightofjeff
    slightofjeff Posts: 7,762
    don't gimme no wrote:
    Oh yeah, I forgot that murdering spree in the temple. Wait, he didn't kill them, he just hurt them. Maybe that's how Christians justify torture, but I still don't get the killing.

    Tell me how the WWJD? comes into play? Because if we're honest with ourselves when asking that question, we'd all rather be killed than kill. That's what I've learned from the Christian storybooks. And it's actually a good lesson IMO. That coming from a non-Christian.

    The message of Jesus Christ is a great one. Whether it be real or fiction. But his message was not to kill. Here's a pretty good idea of what he taught, just in case anyone was wondering....

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sermon_on_the_Mount

    Note the emphasis on "resist not evil" http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Non-resistance

    and "turn the other cheek" http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Turn_the_other_cheek

    Yes, yes, I am familiar with the Sermon on the Mount. But there are also passages in the New Testament that refer to governing authorities as "bearing God's sword.
    "But if you do wrong, be afraid, for he does not bear the sword for nothing. He is God's servant, an agent of wrath to bring punishment on the wrongdoer."

    Don't sound like "turn the other cheek" to me.

    I'm not saying you have to agree with Christian theology. I'm just telling you how Christian theology can rationalize war. It was the question posed in the title of this thread, after all.
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  • Gary Carter
    Gary Carter Posts: 14,077
    catefrances wrote:
    then in fact they do support the war. it matters not how they came to that conviction. if you can not think for yourself then you're basically screwed anyway.
    they support it cause of brainwashing. it does mater how they come to,thats a fucking cop out of an excuse you used. any thing u matters when you come to a conviction,how did i come to the conviction of no longer being catholic, it wasnt cause i was brainwashed i came to it on my own and realized that i dont need to join a cult to find peace and inner self.


    slightofjeff wrote:
    Yes, yes, I am familiar with the Sermon on the Mount. But there are also passages in the New Testament that refer to governing authorities as "bearing God's sword.
    "But if you do wrong, be afraid, for he does not bear the sword for nothing. He is God's servant, an agent of wrath to bring punishment on the wrongdoer."

    Don't sound like "turn the other cheek" to me.

    I'm not saying you have to agree with Christian theology. I'm just telling you how Christian theology can rationalize war. It was the question posed in the title of this thread, after all.
    wow look at that someone answering the question in a logic and thougout way on here, how shocking :rolleyes:
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  • catefrances
    catefrances Posts: 29,003
    metsfan531941 wrote:
    they support it cause of brainwashing. it does mater how they come to,thats a fucking cop out of an excuse you used. any thing u matters when you come to a conviction,how did i come to the conviction of no longer being catholic, it wasnt cause i was brainwashed i came to it on my own and realized that i dont need to join a cult to find peace and inner self.

    i imagine brian you came to the conclusions about your religion cause you sensed something wasn't quite right.

    it is not a cop out. and ignorance is no excuse. people are not being brainwashed about this war, they are lazy. the information is out there. they just couldn't be bothered looking for it or thinking about it. they allow someone else to form opinions for them when they themselves should be doing it.
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  • Eliot Rosewater
    Eliot Rosewater Posts: 2,659
    slightofjeff wrote:
    Yes, yes, I am familiar with the Sermon on the Mount. But there are also passages in the New Testament that refer to governing authorities as "bearing God's sword.
    "But if you do wrong, be afraid, for he does not bear the sword for nothing. He is God's servant, an agent of wrath to bring punishment on the wrongdoer."

    Don't sound like "turn the other cheek" to me.

    I'm not saying you have to agree with Christian theology. I'm just telling you how Christian theology can rationalize war. It was the question posed in the title of this thread, after all.
    I'm sorry but I've still got to disagree with you. The question posed is "What would Jesus do?" It's not, "What would Jesus say some point later in the New Testament...."

    Jesus, would let himself be killed. He would rather be killed by Saddam Hussein. He would rather be killed by Usama Bin Laden. He would rather be killed by George W. Bush and Dick Cheney (while working in the WTC). He would rather be killed by some crazy fuck in Iran. He would rather be killed by you or me or anyone else, than to kill anyone else. That's how I interpret how he supposedly lived his life.
  • Gary Carter
    Gary Carter Posts: 14,077
    catefrances wrote:
    i imagine brian you came to the conclusions about your religion cause you sensed something wasn't quite right.

    it is not a cop out. and ignorance is no excuse. people are not being brainwashed about this war, they are lazy. the information is out there. they just couldn't be bothered looking for it or thinking about it. they allow someone else to form opinions for them when they themselves should be doing it.
    yes i did cate, i sensed these oil men taking over the catholic religion and taking over the usa by brainwashing us and it worked on 50 million people who didnt come to there own conclusions cause they were brainwashed in believeing that iraq had something to do with 9-11 and that this war is to protect our "freedoms"
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  • slightofjeff
    slightofjeff Posts: 7,762
    don't gimme no wrote:
    Oh yeah, I forgot that murdering spree in the temple. Wait, he didn't kill them, he just hurt them. Maybe that's how Christians justify torture, but I still don't get the killing.

    I think, like most everything else Christ did or said, this story was meant to be allegorical. It was meant to show that sometimes you have to fight for what is right. Sometimes, defending goodness requires violence. Or something like that. Christ also spoke of the need to build one's house on rock instead of sand ... but I don't think he REALLY meant it as construction advice.
    Tell me how the WWJD? comes into play?

    Depends on what book of the Bible you're reading. The gospel Christ says "Turn the other cheek." But if you believe the book of Revelation, when Christ returns, it's gonna be a fucking bloodletting.
    Because if we're honest with ourselves when asking that question, we'd all rather be killed than kill.

    Speak for yourself there. If it's comes down to you or me living, I'm gonna do everything in my power to make it me. Nothing personal :)
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  • slightofjeff
    slightofjeff Posts: 7,762
    don't gimme no wrote:
    I'm sorry but I've still got to disagree with you. The question posed is "What would Jesus do?" It's not, "What would Jesus say some point later in the New Testament...."

    Jesus, would let himself be killed. He would rather be killed by Saddam Hussein. He would rather be killed by Usama Bin Laden. He would rather be killed by George W. Bush and Dick Cheney (while working in the WTC). He would rather be killed by some crazy fuck in Iran. He would rather be killed by you or me or anyone else, than to kill anyone else. That's how I interpret how he supposedly lived his life.

    And, to paraphrase what you said to me earlier, that's only YOUR interpretation.

    That's not the interpretation pushed by pretty much any mainstream sect of Christianity. And again, that's all I'm saying. This is how Christians rationalize war. That much isn't up for argument. It is a fact. This is how they do it.

    Again, you might think you know what Jesus would do, and you might be right, who knows? But that's not what the mainstream of Christians believe. Your opinion doesn't change the fact that this stuff is what is being taught in Christian churches right now, and has been for centuries.
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  • Eliot Rosewater
    Eliot Rosewater Posts: 2,659
    slightofjeff wrote:
    I think, like most everything else Christ did or said, this story was meant to be allegorical. It was meant to show that sometimes you have to fight for what is right. Sometimes, defending goodness requires violence. Or something like that. Christ also spoke of the need to build one's house on rock instead of sand ... but I don't think he REALLY meant it as construction advice.
    Again, that's just your version. ;)


    slightofjeff wrote:
    Depends on what book of the Bible you're reading. The gospel Christ says "Turn the other cheek." But if you believe the book of Revelation, when Christ returns, it's gonna be a fucking bloodletting.
    But that hasn't happened. It's fortune-telling. Prophecy at best. But not history or anything to do with being an example. Even if the Bible were 100% accurate, how does his judgment and punishment open that doors for us to kill? Especially when his message was a message of peace? Damn...how can we live in a country with a governmental position called "War Czar", especially when such position was made by a supposed Christian who talks to God about invading other sovereign nations? [/quote]


    slightofjeff wrote:
    Speak for yourself there. If it's comes down to you or me living, I'm gonna do everything in my power to make it me. Nothing personal :)
    And I as a non-Christian, would let you take my life. The irony is fucking insane.

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