It sounds like we agree that we use these short cuts all the time in order to cut through the reams of data we are faced with each day. And it sounds like we agree that we will be accountable when we make errors based on these judgments.
It looks like the word "rationalize" is what you are taking issue with. If you are judging a girl across the bar, you've got your reasons for your perceptions. And people think those reasons are rational, and yet, they operate independent of who that girl really is, and are therefore a matter of perception rather than necessarily being a depiction of reality.
For the record, studies show that we do make unconscious snap judgments all the time, and then we "justify" them with reasoning after the fact. The thing is that it's a few seconds after...we try to explain our sense to our own selves and yet it's still a sense.
edit: I do agree that our snap judgments and unconscious decisions are the product of a lot of unconscious knowledge and in that sense is predetermined rather than retroactive.
it was only rationalize that i was taking issue with. becos that calls to mind false thinking to come to wrong conclusions. that doesnt fit stereotypes in my opinion. there is nothing invalid or wrong in stereotypes... there is usually a strong basis in truth for them. there is nothing about making errors in judgment based on stereotypes. if you look at someone and figure they're X way becos of stereotypes that's not an error in judgment really, just a bad guess. if you persist in labeling that person and putting them in a box based on your stereotype despite clear evidence that this is wrong, then you have a case of prejudice, not stereotyping... the belief that people cannot transcend your stereotypical beliefs about how they will act.
stereotypes to me are simply sociology... broad impressions of group behavior based on gathered information. nobody with true stereotypical beliefs actually thinks everyone in said group HAS to act a given way becos that is the stereotype. such a belief is prejudice, not stereotyping. rationalizing goes more to prejudice in my mind, becos it involves an active process or effort to fit somebody into a category regardless of evidence contradicting it... you rationalize a belief you know is false becos you don't want to deal with truth. a stereotype is just a guess at someone's category before one has had a chance to gather any evidence to the contrary. so rationalizing has no place in stereotyping in my mind. if you have a different understanding of what rationalizing means, then this is just semantic disagreement.
I missed this before. Again, nice....the part about playing the victim relates to what I was saying, as well. We receive a payoff. We get attention, we feel justified for our position, etc. And ultimately we accept this pay-off above seeking out our dreams.
I just don't buy that it is someone else's fault. We are responsible for our unconscious decisions, and the consequences we accept for ourselves. And we get those consequences at all times. We have no choice but to live with them. Unfortunately, it's not anyone else's fault. Others are, however, responsible for their poor choices and the consequences of those, though. So ultimately we all choose, and we all get the consequences.
It is not to say that there is NO oppression, of course there is, some much worse than others! I just choose to not play in to the role assigned to me. I choose not to contribute to the negative stereotype.
Playing the victim and holding resentment only kills your spirit and squashes your dreams.
The greatest obstacle to discovery is not ignorance,
but the illusion of knowledge.
~Daniel Boorstin
Only a life lived for others is worth living.
~Albert Einstein
It is not to say that there is NO oppression, of course there is, some much worse than others! I just choose to not play in to the role assigned to me. I choose not to contribute to the negative stereotype.
Playing the victim and holding resentment only kills your spirit and squashes your dreams.
I think what angelica is saying, and she said it pretty well, I think, is that, there are those amongst us that seek our own recognition, in spite of what others perceive of our pasts.
I think what angelica is saying, and she said it pretty well, I think, is that, there are those amongst us that seek our own recognition, in spite of what others perceive of our pasts.
Yeah, it about how you perceive yourself, not about what other's perceive of you. I'm not sure how that ties into my statement you quotes....
The greatest obstacle to discovery is not ignorance,
but the illusion of knowledge.
~Daniel Boorstin
Only a life lived for others is worth living.
~Albert Einstein
...there is nothing invalid or wrong in stereotypes... there is usually a strong basis in truth for them....
I would say unless they are unrealistic. Based on our stereotype, we may respond to our own impression in a way that backfires on us, by being inaccurate as per the situation. Stereotypes can literally be wrong if we are seeking to assess what we see and if we are inaccurate in our snap judgment. Such as with the stuck up sorority girl who may not be so at all.
there is nothing about making errors in judgment based on stereotypes. if you look at someone and figure they're X way becos of stereotypes that's not an error in judgment really, just a bad guess. if you persist in labeling that person and putting them in a box based on your stereotype despite clear evidence that this is wrong, then you have a case of prejudice, not stereotyping... the belief that people cannot transcend your stereotypical beliefs about how they will act.
stereotypes to me are simply sociology... broad impressions of group behavior based on gathered information. nobody with true stereotypical beliefs actually thinks everyone in said group HAS to act a given way becos that is the stereotype. such a belief is prejudice, not stereotyping. rationalizing goes more to prejudice in my mind, becos it involves an active process or effort to fit somebody into a category regardless of evidence contradicting it... you rationalize a belief you know is false becos you don't want to deal with truth. a stereotype is just a guess at someone's category before one has had a chance to gather any evidence to the contrary. so rationalizing has no place in stereotyping in my mind. if you have a different understanding of what rationalizing means, then this is just semantic disagreement.
We use stereotypes to prejudge all the time, before we know the actual variables of a situation. Sometimes this works, other times it doesn't. I do it all the time--it's inevitable. The trick is to acknowledge and realize this so one can make amends and acknowledge, adapt and learn when it's not working. Unfortunately, often people cling to their stereotypes and continually rely on the stereotype without adapting based on input that conflicts. Which is where we get closed minded prejudiced people. I find this to be a common shadow aspect of stereotyping--the dark side.
For example, the stereotypes against men in our society to me reflect a lot of unresolved emotional issues with women towards men at this time, which is valid in terms of women's experiences and of cycles that have not yet been resolved. However, if it inaccurately portrays men NOT on the even playing field, then it's an illusion--a false dichotomy is set into play. If we perceive someone as above us, it is inaccurate, and by our perceiving that, we set up an imbalance, and we entitle ourselves to try to "level" them. And we become what we supposedly dislike. The only psychologically safe bet is to operate on the even playing field.
"The opposite of a fact is falsehood, but the opposite of one profound truth may very well be another profound truth." ~ Niels Bohr
I think what angelica is saying, and she said it pretty well, I think, is that, there are those amongst us that seek our own recognition, in spite of what others perceive of our pasts.
WTF are you talking about?
What I mean is that there are a few rarefied creative thinkers here, and more than one of them has a sordid, sad, perhaps traumatic past that they've shared here yet don't want their better side to be thought of as the result of that past. They don't want parents beating up there kids because it makes the kids better thinkers. Remember that line in RVM, guess it was the beatings... that made me wise...?
It is not to say that there is NO oppression, of course there is, some much worse than others!
The oppression is real, and yet there is a firm difference between holding someone accountable and with blaming them. One is straightforward, while the other enables us to weave in a shadow aspect of ourselves where we entitle ourselves to act persecutory to "get them back". And really, what the latter does is reflect our own personal unresolved emotions which are our own responsibility, and not another's.
I hold people accountable far and wide, and surprisingly, when you are straightforward and non-blaming/shaming, they tend to respond in kind, by operating equally on the even playing field in an above board manner to resolve the issue. The minute we operate from the victim/blame perspective, we create our own squirmishes, all because we aren't acknowledging our own issues that we are bringing to the table.
"The opposite of a fact is falsehood, but the opposite of one profound truth may very well be another profound truth." ~ Niels Bohr
Yeah, it about how you perceive yourself, not about what other's perceive of you. I'm not sure how that ties into my statement you quotes....
Because you've personalized it. To me. Your language speaks in the personal tones of someone who has been presented a strong challenge, yet doesn't really speak about it in plain terms.
What I mean is that there are a few rarefied creative thinkers here, and more than one of them has a sordid, sad, perhaps traumatic past that they've shared here yet don't want their better side to be thought of as the result of that past. They don't want parents beating up there kids because it makes the kids better thinkers. Remember that line in RVM, guess it was the beatings... that made me wise...?
Yeah.
People just want to be recognized for themselves.
So?
Well I believe that sometimes you have to know the darkness to know the light, but I don't think that has to be a prerequisite. Maybe you yourself were not beat as a kid, but you witnessed a beating or had a friend that was beat. Sure, our past, the good and the bad, make us what we are today. If that is what you are saying................
The greatest obstacle to discovery is not ignorance,
but the illusion of knowledge.
~Daniel Boorstin
Only a life lived for others is worth living.
~Albert Einstein
Because you've personalized it. To me. Your language speaks in the personal tones of someone who has been presented a strong challenge, yet doesn't really speak about it in plain terms.
I'm not following you. What are 'plain terms'?
The greatest obstacle to discovery is not ignorance,
but the illusion of knowledge.
~Daniel Boorstin
Only a life lived for others is worth living.
~Albert Einstein
Well I believe that sometimes you have to know the darkness to know the light, but I don't think that has to be a prerequisite. Maybe you yourself were not beat as a kid, but you witnessed a beating or had a friend that was beat. Sure, our past, the good and the bad, make us what we are today. If that is what you are saying................
Nope, I was beat.
See though? when I tell you that, you formulate a result of what becomes of an abused child. Or, maybe you don't, but most people do. There are stigmas everywhere. I hestitate to tell anyone i served in the marine corps for the stigma that goes with that. stigmas and stereotypes, inter-related.
See though? when I tell you that, you formulate a result of what becomes of an abused child. Or, maybe you don't, but most people do. There are stigmas everywhere. I hestitate to tell anyone i served in the marine corps for the stigma that goes with that. stigmas and stereotypes, inter-related.
if you don't like the judgments and stigmas, why do you put them on others, and tell others what to do with their history, albeit in passively-aggressive ways?
"The opposite of a fact is falsehood, but the opposite of one profound truth may very well be another profound truth." ~ Niels Bohr
if you don't like the judgments and stigmas, why do you put them on others, and tell others what to do with their history, albeit in passively-aggressive ways?
I think you missed my point, gue. I asked you if you were saying that your past, the good & the bad, makes you into the person you are today? I was trying to understand your point.
See though? when I tell you that, you formulate a result of what becomes of an abused child. Or, maybe you don't, but most people do. There are stigmas everywhere. I hestitate to tell anyone i served in the marine corps for the stigma that goes with that. stigmas and stereotypes, inter-related.
And what I'm saying is it doesn't matter what others 'see' you as. What is important is how you see yourself.
The greatest obstacle to discovery is not ignorance,
but the illusion of knowledge.
~Daniel Boorstin
Only a life lived for others is worth living.
~Albert Einstein
I think you missed my point, gue. I asked you if you were saying that your past, the good & the bad, makes you into the person you are today? I was trying to understand your point.
And what I'm saying is it doesn't matter what others 'see' you as. What is important is how you see yourself.
Of course it is.
I'm over-indivuated, if you ask me. That is to mean, I wish I could get along with people better.
Ok, and I agreed with you. I only added that it is not a prerequisite to have had a terrible past to be a creative thinker. I do think those that have survived their pasts (over come the victim complex) are usually very strong individuals.
Ok, and I agreed with you. I only added that it is not a prerequisite to have had a terrible past to be a creative thinker. I do think those that have survived their pasts (over come the victim complex) are usually very strong individuals.
Then make it so
I do alright. I almost do too well. People start expecting things of me.
Of course it is.
I'm over-indivuated, if you ask me. That is to mean, I wish I could get along with people better.
Individuated actions are shown when one is freed up from being hooked to others in conflict. They side step the hooks that are laid out around them. Self-sabotaging actions indicate places where there is a lack of individuation. One is unconsciously hooking themselves, despite what the conscious self likes to think.
"The opposite of a fact is falsehood, but the opposite of one profound truth may very well be another profound truth." ~ Niels Bohr
Individuated actions are shown when one is freed up from being hooked to others in conflict. They side step the hooks that are laid out around them. Self-sabotaging actions indicate places where there is a lack of individuation. One is unconsciously hooking themselves, despite what the conscious self likes to think.
I'll admit to a past that involves self-destruction. This isn't about me, though.
dude, when you personalize this, and I mean in the now, between you and I, it is about you. And ditto for myself.
Let's get married.
It works out well. The IRS is after me...mmm...i wouldn't mind living in Canada. I'd prefer to be closer to the Rockies than Ontario, though, if you don't mind.
Let's get married.
It works out well. The IRS is after me...mmm...i wouldn't mind living in Canada. I'd prefer to be closer to the Rockies than Ontario, though, if you don't mind.
I'll pass.
I prefer "my men" to operate fairly and on the even playing field.
"The opposite of a fact is falsehood, but the opposite of one profound truth may very well be another profound truth." ~ Niels Bohr
Comments
it was only rationalize that i was taking issue with. becos that calls to mind false thinking to come to wrong conclusions. that doesnt fit stereotypes in my opinion. there is nothing invalid or wrong in stereotypes... there is usually a strong basis in truth for them. there is nothing about making errors in judgment based on stereotypes. if you look at someone and figure they're X way becos of stereotypes that's not an error in judgment really, just a bad guess. if you persist in labeling that person and putting them in a box based on your stereotype despite clear evidence that this is wrong, then you have a case of prejudice, not stereotyping... the belief that people cannot transcend your stereotypical beliefs about how they will act.
stereotypes to me are simply sociology... broad impressions of group behavior based on gathered information. nobody with true stereotypical beliefs actually thinks everyone in said group HAS to act a given way becos that is the stereotype. such a belief is prejudice, not stereotyping. rationalizing goes more to prejudice in my mind, becos it involves an active process or effort to fit somebody into a category regardless of evidence contradicting it... you rationalize a belief you know is false becos you don't want to deal with truth. a stereotype is just a guess at someone's category before one has had a chance to gather any evidence to the contrary. so rationalizing has no place in stereotyping in my mind. if you have a different understanding of what rationalizing means, then this is just semantic disagreement.
It is not to say that there is NO oppression, of course there is, some much worse than others! I just choose to not play in to the role assigned to me. I choose not to contribute to the negative stereotype.
Playing the victim and holding resentment only kills your spirit and squashes your dreams.
but the illusion of knowledge.
~Daniel Boorstin
Only a life lived for others is worth living.
~Albert Einstein
I think what angelica is saying, and she said it pretty well, I think, is that, there are those amongst us that seek our own recognition, in spite of what others perceive of our pasts.
all posts by ©gue_barium are protected under US copyright law and are not to be reproduced, exchanged or sold
except by express written permission of ©gue_barium, the author.
Yeah, it about how you perceive yourself, not about what other's perceive of you. I'm not sure how that ties into my statement you quotes....
but the illusion of knowledge.
~Daniel Boorstin
Only a life lived for others is worth living.
~Albert Einstein
We use stereotypes to prejudge all the time, before we know the actual variables of a situation. Sometimes this works, other times it doesn't. I do it all the time--it's inevitable. The trick is to acknowledge and realize this so one can make amends and acknowledge, adapt and learn when it's not working. Unfortunately, often people cling to their stereotypes and continually rely on the stereotype without adapting based on input that conflicts. Which is where we get closed minded prejudiced people. I find this to be a common shadow aspect of stereotyping--the dark side.
For example, the stereotypes against men in our society to me reflect a lot of unresolved emotional issues with women towards men at this time, which is valid in terms of women's experiences and of cycles that have not yet been resolved. However, if it inaccurately portrays men NOT on the even playing field, then it's an illusion--a false dichotomy is set into play. If we perceive someone as above us, it is inaccurate, and by our perceiving that, we set up an imbalance, and we entitle ourselves to try to "level" them. And we become what we supposedly dislike. The only psychologically safe bet is to operate on the even playing field.
http://www.myspace.com/illuminatta
Rhinocerous Surprise '08!!!
WTF are you talking about?
What I mean is that there are a few rarefied creative thinkers here, and more than one of them has a sordid, sad, perhaps traumatic past that they've shared here yet don't want their better side to be thought of as the result of that past. They don't want parents beating up there kids because it makes the kids better thinkers. Remember that line in RVM, guess it was the beatings... that made me wise...?
Yeah.
People just want to be recognized for themselves.
So?
all posts by ©gue_barium are protected under US copyright law and are not to be reproduced, exchanged or sold
except by express written permission of ©gue_barium, the author.
I hold people accountable far and wide, and surprisingly, when you are straightforward and non-blaming/shaming, they tend to respond in kind, by operating equally on the even playing field in an above board manner to resolve the issue. The minute we operate from the victim/blame perspective, we create our own squirmishes, all because we aren't acknowledging our own issues that we are bringing to the table.
http://www.myspace.com/illuminatta
Rhinocerous Surprise '08!!!
Because you've personalized it. To me. Your language speaks in the personal tones of someone who has been presented a strong challenge, yet doesn't really speak about it in plain terms.
all posts by ©gue_barium are protected under US copyright law and are not to be reproduced, exchanged or sold
except by express written permission of ©gue_barium, the author.
I'm glad I'm not a girl.
all posts by ©gue_barium are protected under US copyright law and are not to be reproduced, exchanged or sold
except by express written permission of ©gue_barium, the author.
Well I believe that sometimes you have to know the darkness to know the light, but I don't think that has to be a prerequisite. Maybe you yourself were not beat as a kid, but you witnessed a beating or had a friend that was beat. Sure, our past, the good and the bad, make us what we are today. If that is what you are saying................
but the illusion of knowledge.
~Daniel Boorstin
Only a life lived for others is worth living.
~Albert Einstein
I'm not following you. What are 'plain terms'?
but the illusion of knowledge.
~Daniel Boorstin
Only a life lived for others is worth living.
~Albert Einstein
Nope, I was beat.
See though? when I tell you that, you formulate a result of what becomes of an abused child. Or, maybe you don't, but most people do. There are stigmas everywhere. I hestitate to tell anyone i served in the marine corps for the stigma that goes with that. stigmas and stereotypes, inter-related.
all posts by ©gue_barium are protected under US copyright law and are not to be reproduced, exchanged or sold
except by express written permission of ©gue_barium, the author.
http://www.myspace.com/illuminatta
Rhinocerous Surprise '08!!!
Me?????
i don't, i really don't.
all posts by ©gue_barium are protected under US copyright law and are not to be reproduced, exchanged or sold
except by express written permission of ©gue_barium, the author.
when you point the finger, my friend, when you point the finger.
http://www.myspace.com/illuminatta
Rhinocerous Surprise '08!!!
I was just trying to get a story out of you. Like, just anything, anytime you were wrongly accused and punished for it.
all posts by ©gue_barium are protected under US copyright law and are not to be reproduced, exchanged or sold
except by express written permission of ©gue_barium, the author.
You're giving me too much credit.
I'm your friend.
all posts by ©gue_barium are protected under US copyright law and are not to be reproduced, exchanged or sold
except by express written permission of ©gue_barium, the author.
I think you missed my point, gue. I asked you if you were saying that your past, the good & the bad, makes you into the person you are today? I was trying to understand your point.
And what I'm saying is it doesn't matter what others 'see' you as. What is important is how you see yourself.
but the illusion of knowledge.
~Daniel Boorstin
Only a life lived for others is worth living.
~Albert Einstein
So you want me to be MORE personal in my posting? Like applying what I say to a 'real life' story about myself?
but the illusion of knowledge.
~Daniel Boorstin
Only a life lived for others is worth living.
~Albert Einstein
Of course it is.
I'm over-indivuated, if you ask me. That is to mean, I wish I could get along with people better.
all posts by ©gue_barium are protected under US copyright law and are not to be reproduced, exchanged or sold
except by express written permission of ©gue_barium, the author.
all posts by ©gue_barium are protected under US copyright law and are not to be reproduced, exchanged or sold
except by express written permission of ©gue_barium, the author.
Ok, and I agreed with you. I only added that it is not a prerequisite to have had a terrible past to be a creative thinker. I do think those that have survived their pasts (over come the victim complex) are usually very strong individuals.
Then make it so
but the illusion of knowledge.
~Daniel Boorstin
Only a life lived for others is worth living.
~Albert Einstein
I do alright. I almost do too well. People start expecting things of me.
all posts by ©gue_barium are protected under US copyright law and are not to be reproduced, exchanged or sold
except by express written permission of ©gue_barium, the author.
http://www.myspace.com/illuminatta
Rhinocerous Surprise '08!!!
Nice post, A.
all posts by ©gue_barium are protected under US copyright law and are not to be reproduced, exchanged or sold
except by express written permission of ©gue_barium, the author.
http://www.myspace.com/illuminatta
Rhinocerous Surprise '08!!!
Let's get married.
It works out well. The IRS is after me...mmm...i wouldn't mind living in Canada. I'd prefer to be closer to the Rockies than Ontario, though, if you don't mind.
all posts by ©gue_barium are protected under US copyright law and are not to be reproduced, exchanged or sold
except by express written permission of ©gue_barium, the author.
well, i was sorta talking to you there A.
all posts by ©gue_barium are protected under US copyright law and are not to be reproduced, exchanged or sold
except by express written permission of ©gue_barium, the author.
I prefer "my men" to operate fairly and on the even playing field.
http://www.myspace.com/illuminatta
Rhinocerous Surprise '08!!!
Plus, I don't wear make-up.
Gosh, you're a bit miffed with me this morning.
all posts by ©gue_barium are protected under US copyright law and are not to be reproduced, exchanged or sold
except by express written permission of ©gue_barium, the author.