it's not sexism, it's realizing the world is imperfect and you cannot stop every bad thing form happening to everyone, so sometimes you have to pick your battles. your friend shandel is, again, atypical. and yeah, you can kill someone easily with one punch, but how many people know how to deliver that kind of punch? very few. a guy with no training can take a swing and a girl dies. a girl with no training is not going to kill a guy with several punches unless she gets incredibly lucky.
First of all, women are more likely to attack their husbands while they are sleeping. They are also way more likely to use a knife, frying pan or other weapon. You could be seriously pumped, a knife to your chest while your sleeping on your back is gonna do you in.
Shandel is not atypical, that's what the statistics show.
I necessarily have the passion for writing this, and you have the passion for condemning me; both of us are equally fools, equally the toys of destiny. Your nature is to do harm, mine is to love truth, and to make it public in spite of you. - Voltaire
Any act of violence is unacceptable, whether coming from a female or male. I don't buy into the prioritizing based on size, gender, etc, either, Ahnimus. I pulled a knife on my boyfriend about 17 years ago, when in the midst of post partum depression. It was a traumatic situation for him--he knew he could not trust me, rightfully so. I've heard other strong men talk about how abuse from women half their size affected them--psychologically, it can run deep. And then beyond that, to have society minimize the situation in any way, I would imagine is bothersome or beyond.
Absolutely. I had difficulty sleeping after being threatened to be murdered. Not to mention that I loved her and she said she loved me. I don't even threaten harm out of jest though. It's no joking matter, look at the guy that hung himself on chat, and other chatters probably said "Haha, do it man, lol"
I don't see why it can't just be an egalitarian system. Here is a solution. When there is a domestic violence report, both people are separated by injunction, children are temporarily removed from both parents, and investigation occurs. Anyone found guilty of assault are sentenced accordingly. When I attended anger management counseling, I was in a room of men and women, we talked about rage together. We all sat in the same shitty chairs. That was in Powell River B.C. though. That's the way it should be.
I necessarily have the passion for writing this, and you have the passion for condemning me; both of us are equally fools, equally the toys of destiny. Your nature is to do harm, mine is to love truth, and to make it public in spite of you. - Voltaire
Absolutely. I had difficulty sleeping after being threatened to be murdered. Not to mention that I loved her and she said she loved me. I don't even threaten harm out of jest though. It's no joking matter, look at the guy that hung himself on chat, and other chatters probably said "Haha, do it man, lol"
I don't see why it can't just be an egalitarian system. Here is a solution. When there is a domestic violence report, both people are separated by injunction, children are temporarily removed from both parents, and investigation occurs. Anyone found guilty of assault are sentenced accordingly. When I attended anger management counseling, I was in a room of men and women, we talked about rage together. We all sat in the same shitty chairs. That was in Powell River B.C. though. That's the way it should be.
When I held the knife on my boyfriend, the next day I was mortified with myself. I told my best friend and she blamed him--"he must have done something really bad to make you that upset". When it happened, he was terrified. The next day I was terrified. I read true crime books at the time and I realized people lose their cool and murder in passion all the time. I didn't excuse my behaviour at all because there was no excuse for it. I knew a guy on the CS message board and he was an obnoxious, healthy, strong man, but he was traumatized by his tiny wife's physical abuse towards him especially with the connections it drew with the abuse his dad used to perpetuate with him. Things definitely need to be balanced out in terms of how we perceive these situations. Abuse is unacceptable, period. To minimize abuse towards men is not okay, imo.
"The opposite of a fact is falsehood, but the opposite of one profound truth may very well be another profound truth." ~ Niels Bohr
When I held the knife on my boyfriend, the next day I was mortified with myself. I told my best friend and she blamed him--"he must have done something really bad to make you that upset". When it happened, he was terrified. The next day I was terrified. I read true crime books at the time and I realized people lose their cool and murder in passion all the time. I didn't excuse my behaviour at all because there was no excuse for it. I knew a guy on the CS message board and he was an obnoxious, healthy, strong man, but he was traumatized by his tiny wife's physical abuse towards him especially with the connections it drew with the abuse his dad used to perpetuate with him. Things definitely need to be balanced out in terms of how we perceive these situations. Abuse is unacceptable, period. To minimize abuse towards men is not okay, imo.
Right, and it's covered up by these stereotypes about men and women. I consider a gender role to be a mix of sexist stereotypes. I remember when I was 14 and my mom just divorced my dad, whenever I visited her, she demoralized men, said "all men are assholes" and similar statements. I of course realized that I was going to be a man too. It made me sick. She had a shrink at the time who's husband cheated on her and was saying similar things. My sister has always had a hard time with men. She's been in one abusive relationship after another, attracting drug dealers and criminals. My mother also warned my sister that one of her brothers or father might try to sexually abuse her. My sister had this in her head growing up. She's a really shy, timid girl, she tries to fit in, and she does, but I think she's very afraid. Sick men find some way to use that against her.
Then I wonder. If a young girl is made to be afraid of men, men that make up a large part of the population, all men that is. Then they become quite, shy, afraid, just what a rapist or otherwise sick man wants. Perhaps once a woman is abused, she confronts this fear, becomes strong and defends herself or avoids bad situations. At some point she realizes not everyone is like the stereotypes, in-fact they are a very small fraction of men. Could we not avoid the whole situation by having a realistic perception of reality?
An alternative theory to a "sick man" preying on a shy woman is just a developing control issue. When two people live together, or even start dating, boundaries are set and over time that can evolve into some bad control issues. This is the more likely scenario. People, men and women, need to be in mutual control of boundaries. Again the stereotyping is a bad thing.
I also like to add, people change all the time.
I necessarily have the passion for writing this, and you have the passion for condemning me; both of us are equally fools, equally the toys of destiny. Your nature is to do harm, mine is to love truth, and to make it public in spite of you. - Voltaire
First of all, women are more likely to attack their husbands while they are sleeping. They are also way more likely to use a knife, frying pan or other weapon. You could be seriously pumped, a knife to your chest while your sleeping on your back is gonna do you in.
Shandel is not atypical, that's what the statistics show.
Ok, well I'll take this one first. Because I can string a coherant thought together on it.
I confess that if my partner was beating the crap out of me on a regular basis, that if I'd had enough of being beaten, and I was in that psychological space, then quite likely if I wanted to retaliate, or I was scared for my life and felt there was no other option, that yes, I would attack while he slept and I would use a weapon.
I did not but I can understand why some women do.
And I'm not saying it's right or wrong just that I understand it.
What should we do about all violence? Not just women. I'm seriously offended by your position on this Jeanie. As I'm sure all these male victims would be as well. It's not just you, but any woman that's ever been the victim of DV takes offense to me saying it's equal between men and women. I'm sick of this fucking bullshit. It's a bad stereotype, it's wrong, you are wrong, I've proven it, wake up, open your eyes, and get off your self-pitying trip. I've been attacked with knives, had a knife around my throat, knives thrown at me, threatened to be killed in my sleep, attacked with a fork, a cast iron frying pan, and a punched and slapped several times. It's fucking pathetic that it's degraded to me being a wuss for not taking a knife to the throat, or for not letting my GF kick me in the balls, or to say that it's not as bad as a man punching a woman in the tits. It's fucking bullshit.
Well to start with, I'd prefer it if you calmed down. I don't think understanding gender roles or DV statistics will be helped in anyway, by you attacking me in your anger. I understand that you are angry and I can see why you are angry but I am not the person that you should be angry with. And frankly I don't deserve it. I will be much more likely to want to have this discussion with you if I don't feel attacked, threatened or negated. Now I'm going to say to you firstly, I think you have assumed alot about my position on this based on the fact that the subject makes you angry and that you feel that what happened to you is being negated by me. This is not the case. I would no more negate your experience than I would any other victim of domestic violence, male or female. Secondly I'm going to say that if I was to be a less calm person, I might actually take some of what you have said as negating my experience or somehow trying to prove that yours is worse and therefore I have no right to speak or that my experience is not "worthy" enough. I am, for the sake of our friendship, going to assume that this is not the case and that somehow we have managed to get into an argument because we are misunderstanding each other. And I think nothing is served by "my pain is worse than your pain". Pissing contests will get us nowhere.
What I have said is that government funds and legislates based on statistics. And men are under represented in the statistics. Whether that be because of lack of reporting by men, or because studies have not been conducted or because they are not a statistically big enough concern. Either way, government will spend funds and allocate moneys based on what the statistics say. So in order for men to be given more access, better funding and greater services, then statistics would have to be gathered, analysed and reported. That has nothing to do with the laws as they stand or the services as they are currently provided. It is the step before that if you will. If statistically men are shown to require these things then government will provide them.
Now I'm not saying that what has happened to you is not awful, or that it isn't happening to other men. But I do still struggle with the statistics you provided as being the be all and end all on the subject. I realise that there are men going through some horrific situations in their own homes. I'm not saying they are wrong just that I would want more evidence backing them up than one lot of statistics. If this is the case in Canada then I would suggest that lobbying your politicians for equal access is something that you should definitely do.
It's important that men are given the help they need in these circumstances.
I will however also provide these links, which indicate that these statistics are not the case in Australia. I admit it was impossible to get many stats on men as victims of domestic violence but wiki does show a few percentages.
Anyway, on that note, I'm done with this as an argument.
If you really want to make change then ALL PEOPLE need to discuss these things calmly, as adults in a non threathening manner.
Please don't take any of this as a personal attack on you Ryan. It is not.
As far as I'm concerned you are my friend and we should be able to have this discussion calmly and rationally as adults, regardless of whether we agree or not. At this stage I don't know if we agree or we don't. But I believe that communication is more important that agreement sometimes.
........I don't see why it can't just be an egalitarian system. Here is a solution. When there is a domestic violence report, both people are separated by injunction, children are temporarily removed from both parents, and investigation occurs. Anyone found guilty of assault are sentenced accordingly. When I attended anger management counseling, I was in a room of men and women, we talked about rage together. We all sat in the same shitty chairs. That was in Powell River B.C. though. That's the way it should be.
I agree with this, although I would not want to be in a room discussing anger management with men, immediately following a domestic violence situation.
I'm not saying that I would never want to hear from men or to have group with them, but I don't think being in a mixed sex environment is a good idea for people in the early stages of group.
Progress is not made by everyone joining some new fad,
and reveling in it's loyalty. It's made by forming coalitions
over specific principles, goals, and policies.
Ok, well I'll take this one first. Because I can string a coherant thought together on it.
I confess that if my partner was beating the crap out of me on a regular basis, that if I'd had enough of being beaten, and I was in that psychological space, then quite likely if I wanted to retaliate, or I was scared for my life and felt there was no other option, that yes, I would attack while he slept and I would use a weapon.
I did not but I can understand why some women do.
And I'm not saying it's right or wrong just that I understand it.
hmm. if some bastard makes the mistake of hitting me then i will retaliate. i will not accept a beating. i will hit back and then i will walk away. i will make him hesitant to ever approach me again.
hear my name
take a good look
this could be the day
hold my hand
lie beside me
i just need to say
hmm. if some bastard makes the mistake of hitting me then i will retaliate. i will not accept a beating. i will hit back and then i will walk away. i will make him hesitant to ever approach me again.
Yeah, I can understand that cate. Although the one time I did retaliate to my beating for the day, I wished I hadn't very quickly. Mostly, in the end, it was much safer and over much faster, if I curled up into a ball, protecting my head. Or got myself out of the room or the house and came home when it was all calmed down.
It's hard to walk away when it's your home, with your family and all your belongings in it, and he is the one that should be leaving.
I guess that's why I can understand why some women resort to being crafty to neutralize the threat.
I sometimes wonder if I hadn't managed to encourage him to go, what would have happened?
And before he came along, I was more than happy, to defend myself with force if necessary.
But some people are just stronger. I used to wish that I had super hero powers just for one day.
Right, and it's covered up by these stereotypes about men and women. I consider a gender role to be a mix of sexist stereotypes. I remember when I was 14 and my mom just divorced my dad, whenever I visited her, she demoralized men, said "all men are assholes" and similar statements. I of course realized that I was going to be a man too. It made me sick. She had a shrink at the time who's husband cheated on her and was saying similar things. My sister has always had a hard time with men. She's been in one abusive relationship after another, attracting drug dealers and criminals. My mother also warned my sister that one of her brothers or father might try to sexually abuse her. My sister had this in her head growing up. She's a really shy, timid girl, she tries to fit in, and she does, but I think she's very afraid. Sick men find some way to use that against her.
Then I wonder. If a young girl is made to be afraid of men, men that make up a large part of the population, all men that is. Then they become quite, shy, afraid, just what a rapist or otherwise sick man wants. Perhaps once a woman is abused, she confronts this fear, becomes strong and defends herself or avoids bad situations. At some point she realizes not everyone is like the stereotypes, in-fact they are a very small fraction of men. Could we not avoid the whole situation by having a realistic perception of reality?
An alternative theory to a "sick man" preying on a shy woman is just a developing control issue. When two people live together, or even start dating, boundaries are set and over time that can evolve into some bad control issues. This is the more likely scenario. People, men and women, need to be in mutual control of boundaries. Again the stereotyping is a bad thing.
I also like to add, people change all the time.
Wow, maybe back in the day, our moms should have hung out. My mom used to occasionally call the police and tell them our father was sexually molesting his daughters. And the irony was that my dad was/is an awesome, sweet person and by accounts of my sisters and myself, didn't come close to doing anything inappropriate. He spent years holding his family together while his wife had numerous major mental health issues. Until she left. It's also more than coincidental that the boyfriend I held the knife on was a gentle, caring person like my own father, who not only was not abusive, but he spent years doing what he could to pick up the slack for my own mental health issues, in terms of my kids. He came from a similar background with a mentally ill mother, and did what he could to "fix" things with myself and the kids. Even after we broke up, he supported me, took both kids on weekends, even though my daughter is not naturally his child. I was a severe recluse, so he would do all the school functions for both my kids. He also often brought me things from the store for years, or occasionally paid bills I had fallen behind on. His tolerance of my few incidences of abuse could be traced to his own confused and messed up childhood. Few people realize how even as a fullgrown adult, circumstances can trigger us and we get regressed back to unresolved pain from our past without realizing it. We attract revictimization. Men are just as vulnerable to these emotional and psychological onslaughts as women.
I can only imagine the consequences you or your sister have had due to the comments your mom made. You mentioned the outcome for your sister, which I agree with. I know that I put out a vulnerability to men all the time that caused them to victimize me over and over. And in your case, for some reason, you've been in situations where you've been abused by women. When your own mother has degraded your very sex, something inherent to us and that we cannot change, it kind of makes sense that on some level you have accepted abuse in your relationships, if not consciously, then unconsciously as shown by your actions of staying in the relationship. And the fact that a mother is saying those things in front of her 14 year old child, itself, is abusive, and it's not a stretch to see you growing up to find the same male hatred acceptable on some level. Do we even have a word that equals "misogyny", in terms of when people hate males?
I don't necessarily think gender roles are sexist stereotypes. I think sexist stereotypes can arise from gender roles. Gender roles are roles that we find work well for us in our society. There are many benefits. There is also obviously the dark side to gender roles.
I agree. People can and do change all the time.
"The opposite of a fact is falsehood, but the opposite of one profound truth may very well be another profound truth." ~ Niels Bohr
First of all, women are more likely to attack their husbands while they are sleeping. They are also way more likely to use a knife, frying pan or other weapon. You could be seriously pumped, a knife to your chest while your sleeping on your back is gonna do you in.
Shandel is not atypical, that's what the statistics show.
how many men are killed by women each year? how many women are killed by men? how many men are raped by women? how many women are raped by men?
hmm. if some bastard makes the mistake of hitting me then i will retaliate. i will not accept a beating. i will hit back and then i will walk away. i will make him hesitant to ever approach me again.
i think his point was that we automatically assume that if a woman gets violent, she's only fighting back and the man must have been abusive first.
how many men are killed by women each year? how many women are killed by men? how many men are raped by women? how many women are raped by men?
The rape thing is different than the physical abuse issue, in that 98.5% of all sexual abusers of both males and females are men. (Canadian Mental Health Association)
"The opposite of a fact is falsehood, but the opposite of one profound truth may very well be another profound truth." ~ Niels Bohr
The rape thing is different than the physical abuse issue, in that 98.5% of all sexual abusers of both males and females are men. (Canadian Mental Health Association)
then why is it so unreasonable for scarce government resources to be directed at the larger of the two problems? i fail to see a dramatic difference between rape and violence statistics. i've read ahnimus's study before and one little survey isn't exactly ironclad.
i think his point was that we automatically assume that if a woman gets violent, she's only fighting back and the man must have been abusive first.
And besides my own situation where I was abusive and this was not the case, I've known personally of others. I've known many abusive women. Particularly towards their kids, which starts some devastating life patterns for the kids--boys and girls.
My current boyfriend was violently phsyically abused over and over throughout his childhood. His mother still constantly belittles and mocks him and blames him for everything that goes wrong in her own life. He takes care of her, and nothing he does is good enough. He has constantly put his own life on hold to be a caregiver to others. Of course the effect has been that he has not been able to outlet his own potential. His abuses have had very serious long term effects on him and where he is in his life. Especially as a male who is not "allowed" to face these issues and recognize the hurt and damage that has been caused. It is due to this dynamic that he was fine being with me in the beginning our our relationship when I had active mentally and emotionally abusive patterns playing out still.
"The opposite of a fact is falsehood, but the opposite of one profound truth may very well be another profound truth." ~ Niels Bohr
then why is it so unreasonable for scarce government resources to be directed at the larger of the two problems? i fail to see a dramatic difference between rape and violence statistics. i've read ahnimus's study before and one little survey isn't exactly ironclad.
I don't think it's unreasonable to put resources to where the problems are recognized. I went to a woman's shelter years back, purely for information for control issues I was dealing with in terms of my boyfriend. They paid my cab there and offered all kinds of resources because they were taking abuse very seriously. Crimes against women that led to death were on the rise and they were responding. The squeaky wheel gets the grease. The problem I see is all the underlying social conditioning that keep men holding their problems inside and to where they are not seeking help. This issue is created and sustained by society. And maybe the cases involving abuse of men don't objectively appear as dramatic as they do when the abuses are towards women, a lot of the times. That is not to say they are not very dramatic and perpetuating trauma for the males involved. So in this sense, what Ahnimus and I are pointing to is the way people largely view these situations and how the patterns are in place are are being constantly perpetuated where men, even as victims, are still to blame, because they can defend themselves, etc. We can stop perpetuating and reinforcing what is based on lack of awareness or on ignorance.
"The opposite of a fact is falsehood, but the opposite of one profound truth may very well be another profound truth." ~ Niels Bohr
I remember when I was 14 and my mom just divorced my dad, whenever I visited her, she demoralized men, said "all men are assholes" and similar statements. I of course realized that I was going to be a man too. It made me sick. She had a shrink at the time who's husband cheated on her and was saying similar things.
I hated men. I used to say all kinds of degrading things about men. I believed that all men were pigs and abusive towards women. Then I had my son. First of all, I developed the pathological aspect of "doing my hair" during the pregnancy with him. then when he was born, I developed full-blown obsessive-compulsive disorder to a severe degree, to go along with the post-partum depression I suffered from. I also began remembering that I was sexually assaulted when I was a little girl. It was a nightmarish time of my life. Two things happened that changed the course of my life, even considering I had yet to go through many years of debilitating mental illness. One was that I read in the book "The Boy Who Couldn't Stop Washing"--the definitive OCD book at the time, that when mothers have OCD, there is a link between their sons developing it as well. My infant son had a mother with OCD (linked to being a genetic disorder). His paternal grandmother also had OCD, and his maternal grandmother had schizophrenia. I knew it was a distinct possibility that he could develop ocd himself. Amidst all the horrific abuses of my life, nothing has been as painful as having OCD. I was willing to do anything to prevent my son from developing it. That put me on a course of looking to find any solution I could.
Secondly, I would look at this baby that I loved so much. And I knew he was male and I knew I could not hate him. But I knew I hated men. I didn't know how to deal with that. Then it clicked. I realized there were many, many years before he would hit puberty and be capable of some of the ugly sexual assaults I had endured. I knew that how I treated him, and raised him in each day would make all the difference in the world on who he'd become by puberty. I realized my responsibility in the situation and I was going to do what it took to raise him to be wonderful.
My son, who is now 17, has been an amazing blessing to me. He has no idea of these issues, or how dramatically his presence in my life has affected my life, and indirectly many others, because he has been allowed to be a child, and to grow and learn in reasonbly healthy ways. People can change, and when we're motivated, we can change the patterns that bind us.
"The opposite of a fact is falsehood, but the opposite of one profound truth may very well be another profound truth." ~ Niels Bohr
I was just talking to a fellow workmate and he said that his ex took a knife to him as well, he managed to talk her out of it though.
I necessarily have the passion for writing this, and you have the passion for condemning me; both of us are equally fools, equally the toys of destiny. Your nature is to do harm, mine is to love truth, and to make it public in spite of you. - Voltaire
I don't think it's unreasonable to put resources to where the problems are recognized. I went to a woman's shelter years back, purely for information for control issues I was dealing with in terms of my boyfriend. They paid my cab there and offered all kinds of resources because they were taking abuse very seriously. Crimes against women that led to death were on the rise and they were responding. The squeaky wheel gets the grease. The problem I see is all the underlying social conditioning that keep men holding their problems inside and to where they are not seeking help. This issue is created and sustained by society. And maybe the cases involving abuse of men don't objectively appear as dramatic as they do when the abuses are towards women, a lot of the times. That is not to say they are not very dramatic and perpetuating trauma for the males involved. So in this sense, what Ahnimus and I are pointing to is the way people largely view these situations and how the patterns are in place are are being constantly perpetuated where men, even as victims, are still to blame, because they can defend themselves, etc. We can stop perpetuating and reinforcing what is based on lack of awareness or on ignorance.
then maybe his argument should focus on how abuse of men should be more accepted and men should be abel to speak about it, rather than about how the world is slanted to favor women.
then maybe his argument should focus on how abuse of men should be more accepted and men should be abel to speak about it, rather than about how women dont have it any worse.
I think it's okay for his argument to be exactly what it is--his argument.
I "heard" him as saying that abuse is abuse. Whether you are male or female. I thought he was asking that male abuse be acknowledged for what it is, rather than being downplayed, as though it takes away from women abuse.
"The opposite of a fact is falsehood, but the opposite of one profound truth may very well be another profound truth." ~ Niels Bohr
then maybe his argument should focus on how abuse of men should be more accepted and men should be abel to speak about it, rather than about how the world is slanted to favor women.
everyone regardless of whether they are male or female should be able to have their complaints dealt with seriously. the fact that men are more often than not seen as the perpetrator of violence is due to a society predominantly shaped by men. so basically they created the environment in which their claims are not taken with the same gravity as women's.
hear my name
take a good look
this could be the day
hold my hand
lie beside me
i just need to say
then maybe his argument should focus on how abuse of men should be more accepted and men should be abel to speak about it, rather than about how the world is slanted to favor women.
I'm here
We were talking about stereotypes and gender roles, I was explaining a bad stereotype/gender association.
I necessarily have the passion for writing this, and you have the passion for condemning me; both of us are equally fools, equally the toys of destiny. Your nature is to do harm, mine is to love truth, and to make it public in spite of you. - Voltaire
everyone regardless of whether they are male or female should be able to have their complaints dealt with seriously. the fact that men are more often than not seen as the perpetrator of violence is due to a society predominantly shaped by men. so basically they created the environment in which their claims are not taken with the same gravity as women's.
I disagree with this. Women support the same system.
"The opposite of a fact is falsehood, but the opposite of one profound truth may very well be another profound truth." ~ Niels Bohr
Comments
First of all, women are more likely to attack their husbands while they are sleeping. They are also way more likely to use a knife, frying pan or other weapon. You could be seriously pumped, a knife to your chest while your sleeping on your back is gonna do you in.
Shandel is not atypical, that's what the statistics show.
http://www.myspace.com/illuminatta
Rhinocerous Surprise '08!!!
Absolutely. I had difficulty sleeping after being threatened to be murdered. Not to mention that I loved her and she said she loved me. I don't even threaten harm out of jest though. It's no joking matter, look at the guy that hung himself on chat, and other chatters probably said "Haha, do it man, lol"
I don't see why it can't just be an egalitarian system. Here is a solution. When there is a domestic violence report, both people are separated by injunction, children are temporarily removed from both parents, and investigation occurs. Anyone found guilty of assault are sentenced accordingly. When I attended anger management counseling, I was in a room of men and women, we talked about rage together. We all sat in the same shitty chairs. That was in Powell River B.C. though. That's the way it should be.
http://www.myspace.com/illuminatta
Rhinocerous Surprise '08!!!
seriously. are you for real?
Right, and it's covered up by these stereotypes about men and women. I consider a gender role to be a mix of sexist stereotypes. I remember when I was 14 and my mom just divorced my dad, whenever I visited her, she demoralized men, said "all men are assholes" and similar statements. I of course realized that I was going to be a man too. It made me sick. She had a shrink at the time who's husband cheated on her and was saying similar things. My sister has always had a hard time with men. She's been in one abusive relationship after another, attracting drug dealers and criminals. My mother also warned my sister that one of her brothers or father might try to sexually abuse her. My sister had this in her head growing up. She's a really shy, timid girl, she tries to fit in, and she does, but I think she's very afraid. Sick men find some way to use that against her.
Then I wonder. If a young girl is made to be afraid of men, men that make up a large part of the population, all men that is. Then they become quite, shy, afraid, just what a rapist or otherwise sick man wants. Perhaps once a woman is abused, she confronts this fear, becomes strong and defends herself or avoids bad situations. At some point she realizes not everyone is like the stereotypes, in-fact they are a very small fraction of men. Could we not avoid the whole situation by having a realistic perception of reality?
An alternative theory to a "sick man" preying on a shy woman is just a developing control issue. When two people live together, or even start dating, boundaries are set and over time that can evolve into some bad control issues. This is the more likely scenario. People, men and women, need to be in mutual control of boundaries. Again the stereotyping is a bad thing.
I also like to add, people change all the time.
mmmm.......white chocolate and macadamia cookies!!!
*~You're IT Bert!~*
Hold on to the thread
The currents will shift
Ok, well I'll take this one first. Because I can string a coherant thought together on it.
I confess that if my partner was beating the crap out of me on a regular basis, that if I'd had enough of being beaten, and I was in that psychological space, then quite likely if I wanted to retaliate, or I was scared for my life and felt there was no other option, that yes, I would attack while he slept and I would use a weapon.
I did not but I can understand why some women do.
And I'm not saying it's right or wrong just that I understand it.
*~You're IT Bert!~*
Hold on to the thread
The currents will shift
Well to start with, I'd prefer it if you calmed down. I don't think understanding gender roles or DV statistics will be helped in anyway, by you attacking me in your anger. I understand that you are angry and I can see why you are angry but I am not the person that you should be angry with. And frankly I don't deserve it. I will be much more likely to want to have this discussion with you if I don't feel attacked, threatened or negated. Now I'm going to say to you firstly, I think you have assumed alot about my position on this based on the fact that the subject makes you angry and that you feel that what happened to you is being negated by me. This is not the case. I would no more negate your experience than I would any other victim of domestic violence, male or female. Secondly I'm going to say that if I was to be a less calm person, I might actually take some of what you have said as negating my experience or somehow trying to prove that yours is worse and therefore I have no right to speak or that my experience is not "worthy" enough. I am, for the sake of our friendship, going to assume that this is not the case and that somehow we have managed to get into an argument because we are misunderstanding each other. And I think nothing is served by "my pain is worse than your pain". Pissing contests will get us nowhere.
What I have said is that government funds and legislates based on statistics. And men are under represented in the statistics. Whether that be because of lack of reporting by men, or because studies have not been conducted or because they are not a statistically big enough concern. Either way, government will spend funds and allocate moneys based on what the statistics say. So in order for men to be given more access, better funding and greater services, then statistics would have to be gathered, analysed and reported. That has nothing to do with the laws as they stand or the services as they are currently provided. It is the step before that if you will. If statistically men are shown to require these things then government will provide them.
Now I'm not saying that what has happened to you is not awful, or that it isn't happening to other men. But I do still struggle with the statistics you provided as being the be all and end all on the subject. I realise that there are men going through some horrific situations in their own homes. I'm not saying they are wrong just that I would want more evidence backing them up than one lot of statistics. If this is the case in Canada then I would suggest that lobbying your politicians for equal access is something that you should definitely do.
It's important that men are given the help they need in these circumstances.
I will however also provide these links, which indicate that these statistics are not the case in Australia. I admit it was impossible to get many stats on men as victims of domestic violence but wiki does show a few percentages.
http://www.aph.gov.au/library/intguide/SP/Dom_violence.htm
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Domestic_violence
Anyway, on that note, I'm done with this as an argument.
If you really want to make change then ALL PEOPLE need to discuss these things calmly, as adults in a non threathening manner.
Please don't take any of this as a personal attack on you Ryan. It is not.
As far as I'm concerned you are my friend and we should be able to have this discussion calmly and rationally as adults, regardless of whether we agree or not. At this stage I don't know if we agree or we don't. But I believe that communication is more important that agreement sometimes.
*~You're IT Bert!~*
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I agree with this, although I would not want to be in a room discussing anger management with men, immediately following a domestic violence situation.
I'm not saying that I would never want to hear from men or to have group with them, but I don't think being in a mixed sex environment is a good idea for people in the early stages of group.
*~You're IT Bert!~*
Hold on to the thread
The currents will shift
lol
and reveling in it's loyalty. It's made by forming coalitions
over specific principles, goals, and policies.
http://i36.tinypic.com/66j31x.jpg
(\__/)
( o.O)
(")_(")
hmm. if some bastard makes the mistake of hitting me then i will retaliate. i will not accept a beating. i will hit back and then i will walk away. i will make him hesitant to ever approach me again.
take a good look
this could be the day
hold my hand
lie beside me
i just need to say
Yeah, I can understand that cate. Although the one time I did retaliate to my beating for the day, I wished I hadn't very quickly. Mostly, in the end, it was much safer and over much faster, if I curled up into a ball, protecting my head. Or got myself out of the room or the house and came home when it was all calmed down.
It's hard to walk away when it's your home, with your family and all your belongings in it, and he is the one that should be leaving.
I guess that's why I can understand why some women resort to being crafty to neutralize the threat.
I sometimes wonder if I hadn't managed to encourage him to go, what would have happened?
And before he came along, I was more than happy, to defend myself with force if necessary.
But some people are just stronger. I used to wish that I had super hero powers just for one day.
*~You're IT Bert!~*
Hold on to the thread
The currents will shift
I can only imagine the consequences you or your sister have had due to the comments your mom made. You mentioned the outcome for your sister, which I agree with. I know that I put out a vulnerability to men all the time that caused them to victimize me over and over. And in your case, for some reason, you've been in situations where you've been abused by women. When your own mother has degraded your very sex, something inherent to us and that we cannot change, it kind of makes sense that on some level you have accepted abuse in your relationships, if not consciously, then unconsciously as shown by your actions of staying in the relationship. And the fact that a mother is saying those things in front of her 14 year old child, itself, is abusive, and it's not a stretch to see you growing up to find the same male hatred acceptable on some level. Do we even have a word that equals "misogyny", in terms of when people hate males?
I don't necessarily think gender roles are sexist stereotypes. I think sexist stereotypes can arise from gender roles. Gender roles are roles that we find work well for us in our society. There are many benefits. There is also obviously the dark side to gender roles.
I agree. People can and do change all the time.
http://www.myspace.com/illuminatta
Rhinocerous Surprise '08!!!
how many men are killed by women each year? how many women are killed by men? how many men are raped by women? how many women are raped by men?
i think his point was that we automatically assume that if a woman gets violent, she's only fighting back and the man must have been abusive first.
feminism
no.
http://www.myspace.com/illuminatta
Rhinocerous Surprise '08!!!
then why is it so unreasonable for scarce government resources to be directed at the larger of the two problems? i fail to see a dramatic difference between rape and violence statistics. i've read ahnimus's study before and one little survey isn't exactly ironclad.
My current boyfriend was violently phsyically abused over and over throughout his childhood. His mother still constantly belittles and mocks him and blames him for everything that goes wrong in her own life. He takes care of her, and nothing he does is good enough. He has constantly put his own life on hold to be a caregiver to others. Of course the effect has been that he has not been able to outlet his own potential. His abuses have had very serious long term effects on him and where he is in his life. Especially as a male who is not "allowed" to face these issues and recognize the hurt and damage that has been caused. It is due to this dynamic that he was fine being with me in the beginning our our relationship when I had active mentally and emotionally abusive patterns playing out still.
http://www.myspace.com/illuminatta
Rhinocerous Surprise '08!!!
http://www.myspace.com/illuminatta
Rhinocerous Surprise '08!!!
Secondly, I would look at this baby that I loved so much. And I knew he was male and I knew I could not hate him. But I knew I hated men. I didn't know how to deal with that. Then it clicked. I realized there were many, many years before he would hit puberty and be capable of some of the ugly sexual assaults I had endured. I knew that how I treated him, and raised him in each day would make all the difference in the world on who he'd become by puberty. I realized my responsibility in the situation and I was going to do what it took to raise him to be wonderful.
My son, who is now 17, has been an amazing blessing to me. He has no idea of these issues, or how dramatically his presence in my life has affected my life, and indirectly many others, because he has been allowed to be a child, and to grow and learn in reasonbly healthy ways. People can change, and when we're motivated, we can change the patterns that bind us.
http://www.myspace.com/illuminatta
Rhinocerous Surprise '08!!!
i got that conor. but my point was...well you get my point i'm sure.
take a good look
this could be the day
hold my hand
lie beside me
i just need to say
then maybe his argument should focus on how abuse of men should be more accepted and men should be abel to speak about it, rather than about how the world is slanted to favor women.
I "heard" him as saying that abuse is abuse. Whether you are male or female. I thought he was asking that male abuse be acknowledged for what it is, rather than being downplayed, as though it takes away from women abuse.
http://www.myspace.com/illuminatta
Rhinocerous Surprise '08!!!
everyone regardless of whether they are male or female should be able to have their complaints dealt with seriously. the fact that men are more often than not seen as the perpetrator of violence is due to a society predominantly shaped by men. so basically they created the environment in which their claims are not taken with the same gravity as women's.
take a good look
this could be the day
hold my hand
lie beside me
i just need to say
I'm here
We were talking about stereotypes and gender roles, I was explaining a bad stereotype/gender association.
http://www.myspace.com/illuminatta
Rhinocerous Surprise '08!!!