women dressing in things like tiny mini-skirts and shirts with the said text represent an extreme of sexual aggression similar to a guy at a bar being misgynistic and groping women. if men have to exercise restraint in their sexual behaviors, so do women. im not saying they need to wear burkhas in the kitchen, but to dress as provocatively as possible in an effort to "celebrate" their sexuality and then claim that it is wrong for men to view them sexually is patently ridiculous.
Add in the fact that said T-shirt is marketed primarily to teenagers, mix in a dollup of parents who not only allow their daughters to wear said t-shirt, but, give them money and a ride to the mall to obtain it, and you have a recipe for disaster... and over the counter morning after pills.
"When all your friends and sedatives mean well but make it worse... better find yourself a place to level out."
what are you saying about this shirt then? is it embracing or celebrating sexuality or encouraging objectification? i see a line between celebrating and embracing sexuality, and flaunting it. i am all for equality, but i also think both sides need to meet. women dressing in things like tiny mini-skirts and shirts with the said text represent an extreme of sexual aggression similar to a guy at a bar being misgynistic and groping women. if men have to exercise restraint in their sexual behaviors, so do women. im not saying they need to wear burkhas in the kitchen, but to dress as provocatively as possible in an effort to "celebrate" their sexuality and then claim that it is wrong for men to view them sexually is patently ridiculous.
I hardly think you can compare a man groping women to a woman wearing revealing clothing. I don't like to see women dressed that way, but it's not the equivalent of a gross violation of your personal space. I agree with what VG said about this ... it's everywhere in our culture, kids are bombarded with it on television, on billboards, in magazines. I remember getting catalogs in the mail, sent directly to my daughters when they were in grade school, with what I thought were really outrageous outfits for little girls (or any girls, for that matter) to be wearing. My kids have a loud-mouthed feminist for a mother, so we'd talk about things in the culture and what the hidden messages were, but most kids don't have that and they just soak it all up without question.
Girls are sent a message that they have to be sexy to attract male attention, and then their sexuality is used as an excuse to abuse them because they're being "slutty."
"Nothing in the world is more dangerous than sincere ignorance and conscientious stupidity." ~ MLK, 1963
Ok, if that's your position ... that men are raped and assaulted by women at least as often as the other way around, but their fragile little egos won't allow them to report it :rolleyes: ... then perhaps we should stick with murder statistics, as there is no bias. I'm guessing the bodies of victims of either sex are equally as likely to be discovered.
It's still only showing arrests. Which actually shows the bias quite well.
I necessarily have the passion for writing this, and you have the passion for condemning me; both of us are equally fools, equally the toys of destiny. Your nature is to do harm, mine is to love truth, and to make it public in spite of you. - Voltaire
I think Dave Chappelle said it best in one of his dvd standups. "you might not be a whore, but your wearing a whore's uniform."
I just finished watching it for the 5th or 6th time. Awesome standup routine.
I necessarily have the passion for writing this, and you have the passion for condemning me; both of us are equally fools, equally the toys of destiny. Your nature is to do harm, mine is to love truth, and to make it public in spite of you. - Voltaire
men have higher premiums because they cause more accidents. simple.
Bullshit, I've never been in an accident. That is a generalization, I thought that was supposed to be bad. Or is it only bad when it's not white men?
I necessarily have the passion for writing this, and you have the passion for condemning me; both of us are equally fools, equally the toys of destiny. Your nature is to do harm, mine is to love truth, and to make it public in spite of you. - Voltaire
There wouldn't have been any outrage either if it was the boys that were shot instead of the girls. So don't try to say the lack of 'sexist murder' outcries means anything.
I already said that unless that shirt is ironic, it helps to objectify. The message is that breasts are the only thing of value.
And really, women dressing in a certain way is not similar to a guy groping women. Women are not physically assaulting men by the way they dress.
No, but I was physically assaulted by a woman because of my age. I was at a bar and a woman, probably aged 40+ just wouldn't leave me alone. She kept grabbing at my crotch.
I necessarily have the passion for writing this, and you have the passion for condemning me; both of us are equally fools, equally the toys of destiny. Your nature is to do harm, mine is to love truth, and to make it public in spite of you. - Voltaire
And also, it really shouldn't only have to fall on them. It would be great if there was an effort by the amazing amount of corporations to be more respectful, but who am I kidding.
Corporations will show respect where the consumer demands respect. The auto industry is an example of this. The fashion industry shows no respect because the consumer does not demand it. The consumer has shown it doesn't want to be respected by purchasing shirts with slogans such as "Who needs a brain when you've got these".
In public if I saw woman with that shirt on I would think "there's a person not deserving of my respect', much like I think when I see a guy wearing a shirt that says "show me your tits". Everyone has the freedom to where what they choose and celebrate whatever they want, and I'm free to pass judgement and show them no respect, as long as I don't cross the line and break the law.
“One good thing about music,
when it hits you, you feel to pain.
So brutalize me with music.”
~ Bob Marley
Wow, there's some unassailable logic! Ahnimus has never been in an accident, therefore men do not get in more accidents than women.
*slaps forehead*
Why didn't I see this before?!
No, it means I don't get into accidents more than another person. You are generalizing.
I necessarily have the passion for writing this, and you have the passion for condemning me; both of us are equally fools, equally the toys of destiny. Your nature is to do harm, mine is to love truth, and to make it public in spite of you. - Voltaire
Wow, there's some unassailable logic! Ahnimus has never been in an accident, therefore men do not get in more accidents than women.
*slaps forehead*
Why didn't I see this before?!
Insurance based on sex is a highly sexist practice, and just an example of the rampant and accepted mysandry in our culture.
Aligning the odds of Ahnimus having an accident with his sex is sexist. It in know way takes into account Ahnimus as a human, or judges him on his merit.
“One good thing about music,
when it hits you, you feel to pain.
So brutalize me with music.”
~ Bob Marley
No, it means I don't get into accidents more than another person. You are generalizing.
chiefojibwa said "men have higher premiums because they cause more accidents. simple."
You replied "Bullshit, I've never been in an accident." As though your personal driving record has anything to do with whether men cause more accidents.
Risk assessment based on demographic trends is not the same as random "generalizing." But you know that.
"Nothing in the world is more dangerous than sincere ignorance and conscientious stupidity." ~ MLK, 1963
chiefojibwa said "men have higher premiums because they cause more accidents. simple."
You replied "Bullshit, I've never been in an accident." As though your personal driving record has anything to do with whether men cause more accidents.
Risk assessment based on demographic trends is not the same as random "generalizing." But you know that.
Demographic trending based on sex rather than activity is sexist. Much like we don't allow racial profile in law enforcement, we should not allow sexist profiling in insurance.
“One good thing about music,
when it hits you, you feel to pain.
So brutalize me with music.”
~ Bob Marley
chiefojibwa said "men have higher premiums because they cause more accidents. simple."
You replied "Bullshit, I've never been in an accident." As though your personal driving record has anything to do with whether men cause more accidents.
Risk assessment based on demographic trends is not the same as random "generalizing." But you know that.
My response was accurate. It's bullshit, I am a man and I've never had an accident. So therefore "Men" (me included) do not get into more accidents, some of us have never even had one.
I was however in an accident with my mother at the wheel and I was hit once by a guy driving a truck. So my experience is 50/50. But I've never actually caused one.
I necessarily have the passion for writing this, and you have the passion for condemning me; both of us are equally fools, equally the toys of destiny. Your nature is to do harm, mine is to love truth, and to make it public in spite of you. - Voltaire
I already said that unless that shirt is ironic, it helps to objectify. The message is that breasts are the only thing of value.
And really, women dressing in a certain way is not similar to a guy groping women. Women are not physically assaulting men by the way they dress.
restricting sexual assault to a solely physical definition seems like something men would do. im not saying they're the same thing, but they both represent acting out. the game of courtship has certain roles: men pursuing women and making advances, women trying to attract attention. men groping is acting out in a way that is unhealthy and women dressing to the utmost levels of provcation is also an unhealthy acting out that reinforces men's sexist tendencies. the ideal goal is to break down these roles, but the point still stands. if women found "ball cleavage" attractive, id be equally unsympathetic to guys complaining that they're objectified if they play up to that and id be as equally appalled at a woman groping a guy against his will. it's not that im saying it's as bad as a man groping, but i have scant sympathy for women who complain they're being objectified when they dress in ways that play up to that objectification.
Girls are sent a message that they have to be sexy to attract male attention, and then their sexuality is used as an excuse to abuse them because they're being "slutty."
i agree with that, the message has to change. but women playing up to it can hardly complain when it results in the consequences it was designed to. if you dress to attract male sexual attention, its ridiculous to complain when it gets the attention you dressed to attract. it does not excuse any behavior on men's part, im just saying if you dont like catcalls, dont wear a miniskirt until we get to the point where men are grown up enough to handle it like gentlemen.
The woman that was attacking me wouldn't let up. I turned the opposite direction and ignored her after stating "I kind of just like to sit here alone".
She reached around from behind me and started grabbing at me and saying "You look upset, you can come to my place and I will take care of you."
I was like "Bitch, I'm upset because you won't leave me the fuck alone." but that didn't deter her. She kept trying to climb ontop of me and almost trying to hump me right at the bar.
Eventually she took off to chase some college kids and the bar owner came to offer my a drink on the house.
I think this kind of thing is human and comes out when people drink alcohol. It's not isolated to men. Though whenever I tell this story, to men, or to women, I am asked "Was she ok to look at?" and ask why I didn't go home with her.
I necessarily have the passion for writing this, and you have the passion for condemning me; both of us are equally fools, equally the toys of destiny. Your nature is to do harm, mine is to love truth, and to make it public in spite of you. - Voltaire
The woman that was attacking me wouldn't let up. I turned the opposite direction and ignored her after stating "I kind of just like to sit here alone".
She reached around from behind me and started grabbing at me and saying "You look upset, you can come to my place and I will take care of you."
I was like "Bitch, I'm upset because you won't leave me the fuck alone." but that didn't deter her. She kept trying to climb ontop of me and almost trying to hump me right at the bar.
Eventually she took off to chase some college kids and the bar owner came to offer my a drink on the house.
I think this kind of thing is human and comes out when people drink alcohol. It's not isolated to men. Though whenever I tell this story, to men, or to women, I am asked "Was she ok to look at?" and ask why I didn't go home with her.
can you answer those last questions? none of what you are crying about sounds like abuse. sounds like some horny old chick wanted to get laid. i dont think most (straight) men would call that abuse.
restricting sexual assault to a solely physical definition seems like something men would do. im not saying they're the same thing, but they both represent acting out. the game of courtship has certain roles: men pursuing women and making advances, women trying to attract attention. men groping is acting out in a way that is unhealthy and women dressing to the utmost levels of provcation is also an unhealthy acting out that reinforces men's sexist tendencies. the ideal goal is to break down these roles, but the point still stands. if women found "ball cleavage" attractive, id be equally unsympathetic to guys complaining that they're objectified if they play up to that and id be as equally appalled at a woman groping a guy against his will. it's not that im saying it's as bad as a man groping, but i have scant sympathy for women who complain they're being objectified when they dress in ways that play up to that objectification.
Well soulsinging, I think we're in luck. I'd bet that most women who speak against objectification don't actually dress in that way. Although it really depends on what exactly determines 'playing up to that objectification'. People can have many different ideas about that.
if you wanna be a friend of mine
cross the river to the eastside
can you answer those last questions? none of what you are crying about sounds like abuse. sounds like some horny old chick wanted to get laid. i dont think most (straight) men would call that abuse.
Well, I'm not "most straight men" I have some self-respect.
She was ok looking for a cougar. But it's just not what I'm about. I went to the bar because I was fighting with my girlfriend, we were having a break-up and it was too confrontational to stay home. I went to my cousin's because we were going to go to the bar and shoot some pool. Turned out he didn't want to go in the end and was just going to go to bed. So I had the option of going home to a psycho hosebeast or having a drink at the bar and cooling off. I wasn't there to get laid, I wouldn't have slept with the woman even if I was single. I don't go to the bar to meet people.
I necessarily have the passion for writing this, and you have the passion for condemning me; both of us are equally fools, equally the toys of destiny. Your nature is to do harm, mine is to love truth, and to make it public in spite of you. - Voltaire
Well, I'm not "most straight men" I have some self-respect.
She was ok looking for a cougar. But it's just not what I'm about. I went to the bar because I was fighting with my girlfriend, we were having a break-up and it was too confrontational to stay home. I went to my cousin's because we were going to go to the bar and shoot some pool. Turned out he didn't want to go in the end and was just going to go to bed. So I had the option of going home to a psycho hosebeast or having a drink at the bar and cooling off. I wasn't there to get laid, I wouldn't have slept with the woman even if I was single. I don't go to the bar to meet people.
Well soulsinging, I think we're in luck. I'd bet that most women who speak against objectification don't actually dress in that way. Although it really depends on what exactly determines 'playing up to that objectification'. People can have many different ideas about that.
Yup and people that don't swear say "Holy Cow" which a mockery of Hinduism.
I necessarily have the passion for writing this, and you have the passion for condemning me; both of us are equally fools, equally the toys of destiny. Your nature is to do harm, mine is to love truth, and to make it public in spite of you. - Voltaire
I necessarily have the passion for writing this, and you have the passion for condemning me; both of us are equally fools, equally the toys of destiny. Your nature is to do harm, mine is to love truth, and to make it public in spite of you. - Voltaire
I've heard of men who don't objectify women. I believe they're called "nice guys", and they don't get laid.
Right, because when you go to a bar, the majority of women there, are there to act slutty on the dance floor. Some are there just to have a good time, but the majority objectify men. That's why to be a male model you have to be ripped and good looking.
I necessarily have the passion for writing this, and you have the passion for condemning me; both of us are equally fools, equally the toys of destiny. Your nature is to do harm, mine is to love truth, and to make it public in spite of you. - Voltaire
Right, because when you go to a bar, the majority of women there, are there to act slutty on the dance floor. Some are there just to have a good time, but the majority objectify men. That's why to be a male model you have to be ripped and good looking.
Okay. So when this "cougar" was going for your balls, are you sure she wasn't trying to make sure you wouldn't eventually procreate?
I mean women are so aggressive and violent and all.
if you wanna be a friend of mine
cross the river to the eastside
Many Men and Father's Rights advocates observe the use of false accusations of domestic violence in the context of divorce and child custody proceedings as re-inventing the type of hostile litigations and accusations that were intended to be eliminated by no fault divorce legislation. Thomas Kasper writes in the Illinois Bar Journal that domestic violence measures funded by VAWA readily “become part of the gamesmanship of divorce.” Phyllis Schalfly notes in her September 2006 column "Laughing at Restraining Orders" that the domestic violence injunction issued on David Letterman for sending subliminal messages to a woman 2000 miles away that he had never met, demonstrates the claim by Men's Rights advocates that many domestic violence injunctions do not even involve any actual physical violence, but are instead absurd exhaggerations or fabrications.
Allegations of domestic violence are frequent in post-divorce/separation situations. Such allegations may often be third-party abuse, using third-parties such as courts to carry out untraceable abuse against a falsely-accused 'perpetrator' (see article in Nuance Journal of Family Studies). The consequences of such allegations can be serious for the alleged perpetrator since occupation of the home and custody of the children may be at stake. In Australia, mandated allocation of family resources in court-supervised separation shifts automatically from 50:50 to 80:20 in favour of the alleged victim if there is any allegation of abuse; anecdotal reports and other evidence indicate that such allegations are accepted only from women, and that the allegation itself is required to be taken as its own proof, without any checks or balances. It is sometimes claimed that "less than 2% of reported domestic violence allegations are proved false", but anecdotal and other evidence suggests that this claim, as with many supposed statistics in domestic-violence 'research', is based more on wishful thinking and circular reasoning than on fact. [citation needed]
I necessarily have the passion for writing this, and you have the passion for condemning me; both of us are equally fools, equally the toys of destiny. Your nature is to do harm, mine is to love truth, and to make it public in spite of you. - Voltaire
He's certainly right that if the kids were being targeted on the basis of religion or race then the reaction would be different. Sadly it seems that misogyny is so interwoven in our culture and many people don't realize it. And then some people, if you point it out to them, get so upset and defensive. It's like 'What?! Women ARE equal to men! Oh, women are just as violent as men' etc. Whatever. It just gets so frustrating. Just look around--look at the media, hear what people are saying when they speak. This culture is still misogynistic and sexist. Kind of like racism, it seems to be more hidden. And then people get really weird if you throw those terms around.
Anyway, this is a great website--check it out. There are many areas to it, and it's really great for younger women especially.
I found it an interesting article. and a very good point. things should be done to turn this thing around. However, I don't see it as Misogyny.. I don't think we hate women in our society.. I don't think there is a significant segment of society that was pleased with what happen to those Amish girls. But I do agree that this is the same as if it were race, or religion. However, I don't agree with how we attack those - and therefore don't support a similar attack on misogyny.
Our society is large and filled with opportunities.. there are so many ignored desperate people in this country about to hit 300,000,000.. this is one way to get famous - or to make a difference. If we don't help feed and mentor the poor, for example - this kind of thing will continue. This is a side effect of our capitalist society. If we are content with the way things are going - this is just the bad we have to live with.
some are quite willing to live with these side effects.. others fight for better.
Comments
Add in the fact that said T-shirt is marketed primarily to teenagers, mix in a dollup of parents who not only allow their daughters to wear said t-shirt, but, give them money and a ride to the mall to obtain it, and you have a recipe for disaster... and over the counter morning after pills.
Girls are sent a message that they have to be sexy to attract male attention, and then their sexuality is used as an excuse to abuse them because they're being "slutty."
It's still only showing arrests. Which actually shows the bias quite well.
I just finished watching it for the 5th or 6th time. Awesome standup routine.
Bullshit, I've never been in an accident. That is a generalization, I thought that was supposed to be bad. Or is it only bad when it's not white men?
"Women an children first"
No, but I was physically assaulted by a woman because of my age. I was at a bar and a woman, probably aged 40+ just wouldn't leave me alone. She kept grabbing at my crotch.
In public if I saw woman with that shirt on I would think "there's a person not deserving of my respect', much like I think when I see a guy wearing a shirt that says "show me your tits". Everyone has the freedom to where what they choose and celebrate whatever they want, and I'm free to pass judgement and show them no respect, as long as I don't cross the line and break the law.
when it hits you, you feel to pain.
So brutalize me with music.”
~ Bob Marley
*slaps forehead*
Why didn't I see this before?!
No, it means I don't get into accidents more than another person. You are generalizing.
Aligning the odds of Ahnimus having an accident with his sex is sexist. It in know way takes into account Ahnimus as a human, or judges him on his merit.
when it hits you, you feel to pain.
So brutalize me with music.”
~ Bob Marley
you have to do some generalizing. you are talking men and women in general. not ahnimus and the 40 year old that grab your junk
You replied "Bullshit, I've never been in an accident." As though your personal driving record has anything to do with whether men cause more accidents.
Risk assessment based on demographic trends is not the same as random "generalizing." But you know that.
http://forums.pearljam.com/showthread.php?t=272825
when it hits you, you feel to pain.
So brutalize me with music.”
~ Bob Marley
My response was accurate. It's bullshit, I am a man and I've never had an accident. So therefore "Men" (me included) do not get into more accidents, some of us have never even had one.
I was however in an accident with my mother at the wheel and I was hit once by a guy driving a truck. So my experience is 50/50. But I've never actually caused one.
restricting sexual assault to a solely physical definition seems like something men would do. im not saying they're the same thing, but they both represent acting out. the game of courtship has certain roles: men pursuing women and making advances, women trying to attract attention. men groping is acting out in a way that is unhealthy and women dressing to the utmost levels of provcation is also an unhealthy acting out that reinforces men's sexist tendencies. the ideal goal is to break down these roles, but the point still stands. if women found "ball cleavage" attractive, id be equally unsympathetic to guys complaining that they're objectified if they play up to that and id be as equally appalled at a woman groping a guy against his will. it's not that im saying it's as bad as a man groping, but i have scant sympathy for women who complain they're being objectified when they dress in ways that play up to that objectification.
i agree with that, the message has to change. but women playing up to it can hardly complain when it results in the consequences it was designed to. if you dress to attract male sexual attention, its ridiculous to complain when it gets the attention you dressed to attract. it does not excuse any behavior on men's part, im just saying if you dont like catcalls, dont wear a miniskirt until we get to the point where men are grown up enough to handle it like gentlemen.
She reached around from behind me and started grabbing at me and saying "You look upset, you can come to my place and I will take care of you."
I was like "Bitch, I'm upset because you won't leave me the fuck alone." but that didn't deter her. She kept trying to climb ontop of me and almost trying to hump me right at the bar.
Eventually she took off to chase some college kids and the bar owner came to offer my a drink on the house.
I think this kind of thing is human and comes out when people drink alcohol. It's not isolated to men. Though whenever I tell this story, to men, or to women, I am asked "Was she ok to look at?" and ask why I didn't go home with her.
can you answer those last questions? none of what you are crying about sounds like abuse. sounds like some horny old chick wanted to get laid. i dont think most (straight) men would call that abuse.
Well soulsinging, I think we're in luck. I'd bet that most women who speak against objectification don't actually dress in that way.
cross the river to the eastside
http://forums.pearljam.com/showthread.php?t=272825
Well, I'm not "most straight men" I have some self-respect.
She was ok looking for a cougar. But it's just not what I'm about. I went to the bar because I was fighting with my girlfriend, we were having a break-up and it was too confrontational to stay home. I went to my cousin's because we were going to go to the bar and shoot some pool. Turned out he didn't want to go in the end and was just going to go to bed. So I had the option of going home to a psycho hosebeast or having a drink at the bar and cooling off. I wasn't there to get laid, I wouldn't have slept with the woman even if I was single. I don't go to the bar to meet people.
yea your right, your not like most straight men
Yup and people that don't swear say "Holy Cow" which a mockery of Hinduism.
Oh well, I happen to like my life.
Right, because when you go to a bar, the majority of women there, are there to act slutty on the dance floor. Some are there just to have a good time, but the majority objectify men. That's why to be a male model you have to be ripped and good looking.
Okay. So when this "cougar" was going for your balls, are you sure she wasn't trying to make sure you wouldn't eventually procreate?
I mean women are so aggressive and violent and all.
cross the river to the eastside
Allegations of domestic violence are frequent in post-divorce/separation situations. Such allegations may often be third-party abuse, using third-parties such as courts to carry out untraceable abuse against a falsely-accused 'perpetrator' (see article in Nuance Journal of Family Studies). The consequences of such allegations can be serious for the alleged perpetrator since occupation of the home and custody of the children may be at stake. In Australia, mandated allocation of family resources in court-supervised separation shifts automatically from 50:50 to 80:20 in favour of the alleged victim if there is any allegation of abuse; anecdotal reports and other evidence indicate that such allegations are accepted only from women, and that the allegation itself is required to be taken as its own proof, without any checks or balances. It is sometimes claimed that "less than 2% of reported domestic violence allegations are proved false", but anecdotal and other evidence suggests that this claim, as with many supposed statistics in domestic-violence 'research', is based more on wishful thinking and circular reasoning than on fact. [citation needed]
I found it an interesting article. and a very good point. things should be done to turn this thing around. However, I don't see it as Misogyny.. I don't think we hate women in our society.. I don't think there is a significant segment of society that was pleased with what happen to those Amish girls. But I do agree that this is the same as if it were race, or religion. However, I don't agree with how we attack those - and therefore don't support a similar attack on misogyny.
Our society is large and filled with opportunities.. there are so many ignored desperate people in this country about to hit 300,000,000.. this is one way to get famous - or to make a difference. If we don't help feed and mentor the poor, for example - this kind of thing will continue. This is a side effect of our capitalist society. If we are content with the way things are going - this is just the bad we have to live with.
some are quite willing to live with these side effects.. others fight for better.