Why Aren't We Shocked?

hippiemomhippiemom Posts: 3,326
edited October 2006 in A Moving Train
By BOB HERBERT
Published: October 16, 2006
The New York Times

“Who needs a brain when you have these?” -- message on an Abercrombie & Fitch T-shirt for young women

In the recent shootings at an Amish schoolhouse in rural Pennsylvania and a large public high school in Colorado, the killers went out of their way to separate the girls from the boys, and then deliberately attacked only the girls.

Ten girls were shot and five killed at the Amish school. One girl was killed and a number of others were molested in the Colorado attack.

In the widespread coverage that followed these crimes, very little was made of the fact that only girls were targeted. Imagine if a gunman had gone into a school, separated the kids up on the basis of race or religion, and then shot only the black kids. Or only the white kids. Or only the Jews.

There would have been thunderous outrage. The country would have first recoiled in horror, and then mobilized in an effort to eradicate that kind of murderous bigotry. There would have been calls for action and reflection. And the attack would have been seen for what it really was: a hate crime.

None of that occurred because these were just girls, and we have become so accustomed to living in a society saturated with misogyny that violence against females is more or less to be expected. Stories about the rape, murder and mutilation of women and girls are staples of the news, as familiar to us as weather forecasts. The startling aspect of the Pennsylvania attack was that this terrible thing happened at a school in Amish country, not that it happened to girls.

The disrespectful, degrading, contemptuous treatment of women is so pervasive and so mainstream that it has just about lost its ability to shock. Guys at sporting events and other public venues have shown no qualms about raising an insistent chant to nearby women to show their breasts. An ad for a major long-distance telephone carrier shows three apparently naked women holding a billing statement from a competitor. The text asks, “When was the last time you got screwed?”

An ad for Clinique moisturizing lotion shows a woman’s face with the lotion spattered across it to simulate the climactic shot of a porn video.

We have a problem. Staggering amounts of violence are unleashed on women every day, and there is no escaping the fact that in the most sensational stories, large segments of the population are titillated by that violence. We’ve been watching the sexualized image of the murdered 6-year-old JonBenet Ramsey for 10 years. JonBenet is dead. Her mother is dead. And we’re still watching the video of this poor child prancing in lipstick and high heels.

What have we learned since then? That there’s big money to be made from thongs, spandex tops and sexy makeovers for little girls. In a misogynistic culture, it’s never too early to drill into the minds of girls that what really matters is their appearance and their ability to please men sexually.

A girl or woman is sexually assaulted every couple of minutes or so in the U.S. The number of seriously battered wives and girlfriends is far beyond the ability of any agency to count. We’re all implicated in this carnage because the relentless violence against women and girls is linked at its core to the wider society’s casual willingness to dehumanize women and girls, to see them first and foremost as sexual vessels — objects — and never, ever as the equals of men.

“Once you dehumanize somebody, everything is possible,” said Taina Bien-Aimé, executive director of the women’s advocacy group Equality Now.

That was never clearer than in some of the extreme forms of pornography that have spread like nuclear waste across mainstream America. Forget the embarrassed, inhibited raincoat crowd of the old days. Now Mr. Solid Citizen can come home, log on to this $7 billion mega-industry and get his kicks watching real women being beaten and sexually assaulted on Web sites with names like “Ravished Bride” and “Rough Sex — Where Whores Get Owned.”

Then, of course, there’s gangsta rap, and the video games where the players themselves get to maul and molest women, the rise of pimp culture (the Academy Award-winning song this year was “It’s Hard Out Here for a Pimp”), and on and on.

You’re deluded if you think this is all about fun and games. It’s all part of a devastating continuum of misogyny that at its farthest extreme touches down in places like the one-room Amish schoolhouse in normally quiet Nickel Mines, Pa.
"Nothing in the world is more dangerous than sincere ignorance and conscientious stupidity." ~ MLK, 1963
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Comments

  • AhnimusAhnimus Posts: 10,560
    Whoa!

    I wondered myself why he only targetted girls. Apparently he left a note for his wife saying he was seeking revenge for abuse of two family members. The guy was clearly fucked up. I don't think we need to read any more into it.

    This one incident isn't some kind of cognitive infection that's sweeping the planet.

    And women are just as violent as men.
    I necessarily have the passion for writing this, and you have the passion for condemning me; both of us are equally fools, equally the toys of destiny. Your nature is to do harm, mine is to love truth, and to make it public in spite of you. - Voltaire
  • hippiemomhippiemom Posts: 3,326
    Ahnimus wrote:
    Whoa!

    I wondered myself why he only targetted girls. Apparently he left a note for his wife saying he was seeking revenge for abuse of two family members. The guy was clearly fucked up. I don't think we need to read any more into it.
    Revenge? Yes, he's clearly fucked up. A less fucked up person seeking revenge would target the person who committed the initial offense. A slightly more fucked up person might target someone who was very much like the person who committed the offense. Were his family members abused by little girls? Why specifically target girls? I'm not saying I have the answer, but I certainly think it merits discussion, and Bob Herbert is right ... if he'd killed a bunch of black kids, it's a discussion we'd be having.
    Ahnimus wrote:
    And women are just as violent as men.
    You base that opinion on what?
    "Nothing in the world is more dangerous than sincere ignorance and conscientious stupidity." ~ MLK, 1963
  • I don't see how these two recent school shootings can determine that women are victimized more often. Look at past high school shootings. At columbine 13 people died. Four of them were women.
  • hippiemomhippiemom Posts: 3,326
    I don't see how these two recent school shootings can determine that women are victimized more often. Look at past high school shootings. At columbine 13 people died. Four of them were women.
    That wasn't the point.
    "Nothing in the world is more dangerous than sincere ignorance and conscientious stupidity." ~ MLK, 1963
  • VictoryGinVictoryGin Posts: 1,207
    He's certainly right that if the kids were being targeted on the basis of religion or race then the reaction would be different. Sadly it seems that misogyny is so interwoven in our culture and many people don't realize it. And then some people, if you point it out to them, get so upset and defensive. It's like 'What?! Women ARE equal to men! Oh, women are just as violent as men' etc. Whatever. It just gets so frustrating. Just look around--look at the media, hear what people are saying when they speak. This culture is still misogynistic and sexist. Kind of like racism, it seems to be more hidden. And then people get really weird if you throw those terms around.

    Anyway, this is a great website--check it out. There are many areas to it, and it's really great for younger women especially.

    http://www.about-face.org/aau/
    if you wanna be a friend of mine
    cross the river to the eastside
  • Really, then why was it used as the opening of the story? Seems to me that it was trying to lead towards that belief.
  • hippiemomhippiemom Posts: 3,326
    Really, then why was it used as the opening of the story? Seems to me that it was trying to lead towards that belief.
    Where in the article does he say that women are victimized more often? He's talking about two particular instances, and the dialogue we as a nation have had about them.
    "Nothing in the world is more dangerous than sincere ignorance and conscientious stupidity." ~ MLK, 1963
  • rebornFixerrebornFixer Posts: 4,901
    This post brings up some very good points ... I agree, if this was racial as opposed to gender-based, people would be making an incredible stink about it. But women? Nary a peep, except those that fly off the handle about gun control.

    P.S. -- Hope you're well, hippiemom.
  • AhnimusAhnimus Posts: 10,560
    wikipedia wrote:
    Men or women as violent
    There continues to be discussion about whether men are more abusive than women, whether men's abuse of women is worse than women's abuse of men, and whether abused men should be provided resources similar to those available for abused women. What is often missing in such discussions is that, being equal, both genders commit more or less equal aggression, the difference being in the form that aggression takes (See External links).

    Some psychologists claim males tend to prefer physical aggression while women tend to prefer psychological aggression.

    The statistics cited by Women's Aid and Ahimsa are that violence by women against men is a tiny proportion of all domestic violence is rejected by advocates for male victims of domestic violence. They hold that this finding is based in the situation that many studies report only male-on-female violence because that is all they ask about, those studies that do examine prevalence in both directions overwhelmingly find little difference by gender. This is particularly true when questions are specific: for example, men typically do not report being slapped if they are simply asked about "violence"; women do.

    Martin S. Fiebert of the Department of Psychology at California State University, Long Beach, provides an analysis of 195 scholarly investigations: 152 empirical studies and 43 analyses, which demonstrate women are as physically aggressive, or more aggressive, than men. The aggregate sample size exceeds 175,700.

    All you have to do is find a source that isn't bias, that isn't run by all women, all feminists and you can see it's pretty well even.

    Besides that, what are we supposed to be saying about this? It's a trajedy, but it's not a reason for reperations or some shit.
    I necessarily have the passion for writing this, and you have the passion for condemning me; both of us are equally fools, equally the toys of destiny. Your nature is to do harm, mine is to love truth, and to make it public in spite of you. - Voltaire
  • PaperPlatesPaperPlates Posts: 1,745
    when you say WE, who do you mean? Women? No offense, but noone forces women to wear clothing that degrades them. This is what we call "the feminism backlash". Women became sexually liberated, divorce rates shot up, women are now encouraged to be "openly slutty". Women want to emulate "sex in the city" and set those women up to be role models ffs. Who's supposed to be shocked here? Show me a woman who says she's never used her female assets to get something she wanted in some small way, and I'll show you a liar.
    Why go home

    www.myspace.com/jensvad
  • where as i agree with the article and was shocked by the upshot... there have been a few generalizations for sure.


    sexually suggestive ad-s are done on men too.

    women also watch and tune into the 8 billon $ porn industry.

    women could be just as fast as the men - agassi used to get pics of nude women with their phone numbers written on the reverse.

    extreme form of porn comes for the same reason we have sci-fi thrillers and violent films like a jurassic park or a terminator. cos all the usual genres and usual combinations have already seen 100's of films being made.


    but yes... women should have more respect in society.
    I have faced it, A life wasted...

    Take my hand, my child of love
    Come step inside my tears
    Swim the magic ocean,
    I've been crying all these years
  • hippiemomhippiemom Posts: 3,326
    Ahnimus wrote:
    All you have to do is find a source that isn't bias, that isn't run by all women, all feminists and you can see it's pretty well even.

    Besides that, what are we supposed to be saying about this? It's a trajedy, but it's not a reason for reperations or some shit.
    My goodness, VG was right about the defensiveness, wasn't she? Who said anything about reparations? You worried we're coming after your bank account?

    As to what we are supposed to be saying about it, what do you suppose we'd be saying if twice in the space of a week or two, people had invaded a school, rounded up only Jewish kids, then molested and shot them? It's possible that we'd be talking about what was fueling anti-Semitism, isn't it? I think we'd generally acknowledge that it was a problem, and be looking for ways to address it.

    And by the way, what percentage of school shootings have been committed by females? What percentage of total murders are committed by females? What percentage of rapes? Aggravated assaults? That information would be somewhat more useful than statistics compiled by "advocates for male victims of domestic violence."
    "Nothing in the world is more dangerous than sincere ignorance and conscientious stupidity." ~ MLK, 1963
  • VictoryGinVictoryGin Posts: 1,207
    women are now encouraged to be "openly slutty".

    Your statement really demonstrates how without a clue you are. Hey, I'll give you one. It has to do with your use of 'slutty'.

    Women want to emulate "sex in the city" and set those women up to be role models ffs. Who's supposed to be shocked here?

    Do you even watch this show? If so, you must have totally missed every point ever made on it.
    if you wanna be a friend of mine
    cross the river to the eastside
  • AhnimusAhnimus Posts: 10,560
    but yes... women should have more respect in society.

    I hope you mean by more respect that you believe they have a lack of respect. Which I know is utter bullshit.

    Women have the benefit of the doubt, they have a level of mutual respect not seen with men. If a woman smashes her car, her female friends are there to comfort her and tell her it's not her fault. If a guy crashes his car, his friends laugh at him and poke fun at his driving skills.

    When I applied for insurance recently I learned that women get cheaper insurance then men, where all else is equal.

    Women win child custody battles and domestic dispute cases, where all else is equal.

    Dispite the fact that women are just as aggressive as men.
    I necessarily have the passion for writing this, and you have the passion for condemning me; both of us are equally fools, equally the toys of destiny. Your nature is to do harm, mine is to love truth, and to make it public in spite of you. - Voltaire
  • JaneNYJaneNY Posts: 4,438
    Ahnimus wrote:
    And women are just as violent as men.
    What makes you say this? (And the later statement about women being equally aggressive as men?)
    R.i.p. Rigoberto Alpizar.
    R.i.p. My Dad - May 28, 2007
    R.i.p. Black Tail (cat) - Sept. 20, 2008
  • PaperPlatesPaperPlates Posts: 1,745
    VictoryGin wrote:
    Your statement really demonstrates how without a clue you are. Hey, I'll give you one. It has to do with your use of 'slutty'.

    All I did was basically paraphrase the article. The mysoginst clothing it mentioned, the lewd openly sexual commercials, etc. Whats the problem? The way young girls dress and act these days, they are basically encouraged by media and hollywood to be sexually agressive.



    VictoryGin wrote:
    Do you even watch this show? If so, you must have totally missed every point ever made on it.


    I've never been able to stomach more than 15 minutes of it at a time, but its pretty apparent that calling the main characters promiscuous would be being kind.

    That article complains of men having no problem chanting for a woman to show her breasts, but where's the condemnation for the women perfectly willing to comply?? While I agree that women should be cherished and loved, to think that anyone is less upset about a school shooting because they were "just girls" is idiotic.Including the author of this article. IMO>

    Btw, I've been informed a while back here on the board that the women of today curse too. Why are you so offended by the word slutty? Barring me actually calling you one, its just a word. Relax dear.
    Why go home

    www.myspace.com/jensvad
  • AhnimusAhnimus Posts: 10,560
    JaneNY wrote:
    What makes you say this? (And the later statement about women being equally aggressive as men?)

    Go to wikipedia.com and type in domestic violence. It's one of the main issues in the article. It has links to various studies showing what I've said. Of course I've posted some of it here and in the other thread on this crap.
    I necessarily have the passion for writing this, and you have the passion for condemning me; both of us are equally fools, equally the toys of destiny. Your nature is to do harm, mine is to love truth, and to make it public in spite of you. - Voltaire
  • AhnimusAhnimus Posts: 10,560
    I've never been able to stomach more than 15 minutes of it at a time, but its pretty apparent that calling the main characters promiscuous would be being kind.

    I've found Sex and the City to be demoralizing to men.
    I necessarily have the passion for writing this, and you have the passion for condemning me; both of us are equally fools, equally the toys of destiny. Your nature is to do harm, mine is to love truth, and to make it public in spite of you. - Voltaire
  • PaperPlatesPaperPlates Posts: 1,745
    Ahnimus wrote:
    I've found Sex and the City to be demoralizing to men.

    The one woman is asked by a doctor how many men she's has sex with and she can't even guess. Quite the catch, whoever gets to marry her. ;)
    Why go home

    www.myspace.com/jensvad
  • AhnimusAhnimus Posts: 10,560
    The one woman is asked by a doctor how many men she's has sex with and she can't even guess. Quite the catch, whoever gets to marry her. ;)

    See that's why I don't subscribe to cable, it's so filthy. Television really does warp people's perspectives of society.
    I necessarily have the passion for writing this, and you have the passion for condemning me; both of us are equally fools, equally the toys of destiny. Your nature is to do harm, mine is to love truth, and to make it public in spite of you. - Voltaire
  • hippiemomhippiemom Posts: 3,326
    Ahnimus wrote:
    Go to wikipedia.com and type in domestic violence. It's one of the main issues in the article. It has links to various studies showing what I've said. Of course I've posted some of it here and in the other thread on this crap.
    Arrests during the year 2004:

    Murder
    Male - 8,840 (88.4%)
    Female - 1,158 (11.6%)

    Forcible rape
    Male - 18,406 (98.5%)
    Female - 287 (1.5%)

    Aggravated assault
    Male - 251,005 (79.3%)
    Female - 65,631 (20.7%)

    All violent offenses
    Male - 348,877 (82.2%)
    Female - 75,786 ((17.8%)


    http://www.albany.edu/sourcebook/tost_4.html#4_l
    "Nothing in the world is more dangerous than sincere ignorance and conscientious stupidity." ~ MLK, 1963
  • hippiemomhippiemom Posts: 3,326
    The one woman is asked by a doctor how many men she's has sex with and she can't even guess. Quite the catch, whoever gets to marry her. ;)
    Um .... she's a fictional character.

    And what does this have to do with the topic anyway?
    "Nothing in the world is more dangerous than sincere ignorance and conscientious stupidity." ~ MLK, 1963
  • AhnimusAhnimus Posts: 10,560
    hippiemom wrote:
    Arrests during the year 2004:

    Murder
    Male - 8,840 (88.4%)
    Female - 1,158 (11.6%)

    Forcible rape
    Male - 18,406 (98.5%)
    Female - 287 (1.5%)

    Aggravated assault
    Male - 251,005 (79.3%)
    Female - 65,631 (20.7%)

    All violent offenses
    Male - 348,877 (82.2%)
    Female - 75,786 ((17.8%)


    http://www.albany.edu/sourcebook/tost_4.html#4_l

    Yes arrests! Like I quoted, men don't report women slapping them. They don't report domestic violence as much as women. Studies have repeatedly shown this and the fact that women actually do hit men as often, if not more. I know from personal experience. I have never whitnessed a man hitting a woman, I saw a man break a woman's cell phone once. However, I have seen numerous times women hit men and feel justified in doing so. My mother as one example. She also goes on to say "all men are assholes" and things like that.
    I necessarily have the passion for writing this, and you have the passion for condemning me; both of us are equally fools, equally the toys of destiny. Your nature is to do harm, mine is to love truth, and to make it public in spite of you. - Voltaire
  • hippiemomhippiemom Posts: 3,326
    Ahnimus wrote:
    Yes arrests! Like I quoted, men don't report women slapping them. They don't report domestic violence as much as women. Studies have repeatedly shown this and the fact that women actually do hit men as often, if not more. I know from personal experience. I have never whitnessed a man hitting a woman, I saw a man break a woman's cell phone once. However, I have seen numerous times women hit men and feel justified in doing so. My mother as one example. She also goes on to say "all men are assholes" and things like that.
    Ok, if that's your position ... that men are raped and assaulted by women at least as often as the other way around, but their fragile little egos won't allow them to report it :rolleyes: ... then perhaps we should stick with murder statistics, as there is no bias. I'm guessing the bodies of victims of either sex are equally as likely to be discovered.
    "Nothing in the world is more dangerous than sincere ignorance and conscientious stupidity." ~ MLK, 1963
  • VictoryGinVictoryGin Posts: 1,207
    All I did was basically paraphrase the article. The mysoginst clothing it mentioned, the lewd openly sexual commercials, etc. Whats the problem? The way young girls dress and act these days, they are basically encouraged by media and hollywood to be sexually agressive.

    I've never been able to stomach more than 15 minutes of it at a time, but its pretty apparent that calling the main characters promiscuous would be being kind.

    That article complains of men having no problem chanting for a woman to show her breasts, but where's the condemnation for the women perfectly willing to comply?? While I agree that women should be cherished and loved, to think that anyone is less upset about a school shooting because they were "just girls" is idiotic.Including the author of this article. IMO>

    Btw, I've been informed a while back here on the board that the women of today curse too. Why are you so offended by the word slutty? Barring me actually calling you one, its just a word. Relax dear.

    Unless that shirt mentioned in the article is ironic, it would be sad to see a girl wearing that--because it would just be objectifying the girl. But there should not be anything wrong with a girl or woman embracing and celebrating her own sexuality. The problem is when she is objectified. There's a big difference and one that is not as commonly found when dealing with men's sexuality. Yes, slutty is a word, but you can't deny that words are powerful and indicative of our values. 'Just a word' is such a cop-out. Calling a female a slut is highly offensive because for a long time that was primarily used for women because there is a sexual double standard on women. Men have not had to suffer those labels like women have. Men are commonly celebrated when they are sexually active. Women are commonly punished, which is weird because who are the men having sex with, you know? Now I don't know if this is the way you roll, maybe you just have issues with sex in general--which wouldn't be surprising if you're an American.

    Sex and the City is a show primarily about four women's relationships with each other. Yes they have sex and relationships with men, just like many other people do. The show is all about them and the most beautiful city of New York. I don't think there has been a show quite as women-friendly and it's about time.

    Oh, and please don't patronize me with calling me 'dear'.
    if you wanna be a friend of mine
    cross the river to the eastside
  • cornnifercornnifer Posts: 2,130
    i don't think there is any question that the sexualization of our culture has spun waaay out of control, and that it has had a negative impact on the way women are viewed and treated. Its absolutely unbelieveable. Its truly sickening. i think its important to point out, though, that women, are just as guilty for allowing it as are men. These advertisements, films, etc. are not created without ample supply of female volunteers, and many of the products advertised in this fashion are marketed and sold to women. Women are definitely exploited and objectified to a sick degree, but, they allow, and in fact encourage it. i fear it will only get worse. i see where the author comparing violent sex crimes committed against women to violent crimes against Blacks, for example, is good for making a point, although i must say it simply isn't the same. The motivations are simply not the same.
    As an aside, i've always found Abercrombie and Fitch advertising to be very disturbing. It borders on child porn really. i honestly do not see how they get away with it. i've made it a personal comittment of mine to NEVER patronize them under any circumstance (not that the personal complete boycott of one individual of very humble socio-economic status, such as myself, will make any difference). Its bad enough when corporations use sex to push there wares to adults, its quite another when they market to children in this manner. Sick.
    "When all your friends and sedatives mean well but make it worse... better find yourself a place to level out."
  • VictoryGinVictoryGin Posts: 1,207
    cornnifer wrote:
    i don't think there is any question that the sexualization of our culture has spun waaay out of control, and that it has had a negative impact on the way women are viewed and treated. Its absolutely unbelieveable. Its truly sickening. i think its important to point out, though, that women, are just as guilty for allowing it as are men. These advertisements, films, etc. are not created without ample supply of female volunteers, and many of the products advertised in this fashion are marketed and sold to women. Women are definitely exploited and objectified to a sick degree, but, they allow, and in fact encourage it. i fear it will only get worse. i see where the author comparing violent sex crimes committed against women to violent crimes against Blacks, for example, is good for making a point, although i must say it simply isn't the same. The motivations are simply not the same.
    As an aside, i've always found Abercrombie and Fitch advertising to be very disturbing. It borders on child porn really. i honestly do not see how they get away with it. i've made it a personal comittment of mine to NEVER patronize them under any circumstance (not that the personal complete boycott of one individual of very humble socio-economic status, such as myself, will make any difference). Its bad enough when corporations use sex to push there wares to adults, its quite another when they market to children in this manner. Sick.

    I totally agree on the A&F crap. And I wish more women wouldn't participate in that, but I wonder if because that is what the majority of advertising is--if younger women don't see the true nature? I don't know if I'm making sense, but if something is everywhere and you grow up with it, it can be hard to see that it doesn't have to be that way? Or that they're just being used?

    And also, it really shouldn't only have to fall on them. It would be great if there was an effort by the amazing amount of corporations to be more respectful, but who am I kidding.
    if you wanna be a friend of mine
    cross the river to the eastside
  • VictoryGin wrote:
    Unless that shirt mentioned in the article is ironic, it would be sad to see a girl wearing that--because it would just be objectifying the girl. But there should not be anything wrong with a girl or woman embracing and celebrating her own sexuality. The problem is when she is objectified. There's a big difference and one that is not as commonly found when dealing with men's sexuality. Yes, slutty is a word, but you can't deny that words are powerful and indicative of our values. 'Just a word' is such a cop-out. Calling a female a slut is highly offensive because for a long time that was primarily used for women because there is a sexual double standard on women. Men have not had to suffer those labels like women have. Men are commonly celebrated when they are sexually active. Women are commonly punished, which is weird because who are the men having sex with, you know? Now I don't know if this is the way you roll, maybe you just have issues with sex in general--which wouldn't be surprising if you're an American.



    Sex and the City is a show primarily about four women's relationships with each other. Yes they have sex and relationships with men, just like many other people do. The show is all about them and the most beautiful city of New York. I don't think there has been a show quite as women-friendly and it's about time.

    Oh, and please don't patronize me with calling me 'dear'.

    I think Dave Chappelle said it best in one of his dvd standups. "you might not be a whore, but your wearing a whore's uniform."
  • soulsingingsoulsinging Posts: 13,202
    VictoryGin wrote:
    Unless that shirt mentioned in the article is ironic, it would be sad to see a girl wearing that--because it would just be objectifying the girl. But there should not be anything wrong with a girl or woman embracing and celebrating her own sexuality. The problem is when she is objectified. There's a big difference and one that is not as commonly found when dealing with men's sexuality.

    what are you saying about this shirt then? is it embracing or celebrating sexuality or encouraging objectification? i see a line between celebrating and embracing sexuality, and flaunting it. i am all for equality, but i also think both sides need to meet. women dressing in things like tiny mini-skirts and shirts with the said text represent an extreme of sexual aggression similar to a guy at a bar being misgynistic and groping women. if men have to exercise restraint in their sexual behaviors, so do women. im not saying they need to wear burkhas in the kitchen, but to dress as provocatively as possible in an effort to "celebrate" their sexuality and then claim that it is wrong for men to view them sexually is patently ridiculous.
  • VictoryGinVictoryGin Posts: 1,207
    what are you saying about this shirt then? is it embracing or celebrating sexuality or encouraging objectification? i see a line between celebrating and embracing sexuality, and flaunting it. i am all for equality, but i also think both sides need to meet. women dressing in things like tiny mini-skirts and shirts with the said text represent an extreme of sexual aggression similar to a guy at a bar being misgynistic and groping women. if men have to exercise restraint in their sexual behaviors, so do women. im not saying they need to wear burkhas in the kitchen, but to dress as provocatively as possible in an effort to "celebrate" their sexuality and then claim that it is wrong for men to view them sexually is patently ridiculous.

    I already said that unless that shirt is ironic, it helps to objectify. The message is that breasts are the only thing of value.

    And really, women dressing in a certain way is not similar to a guy groping women. Women are not physically assaulting men by the way they dress.
    if you wanna be a friend of mine
    cross the river to the eastside
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