Abortion is wrong, yet I am pro choice

angelica

scb wrote:

Any woman going for any medical procedure has a right to know about all REASONABLE risks, and medical professionals have a medical & legal obligation to tell them - and they do. (For instance, there is a risk that you may be struck by lightening during your abortion procedure. But this risk is not reasonable enough to counsel all patients about.)

But you seem to forget that risk is relative, and must be based on valid scientific research, not anecdotal "evidence" like the testimonials on your website.

I realize that there are some women who experience serious psychological trauma after having an abortion. Their experiences are valid.

But it would be medically inaccurate to, based on these experiences, start telling all women that abortion causes or puts them at significant risk for serious psychological trauma. You've got to ask a few questions first:

1. Is there a CAUSAL RELATIONSHIP between the abortion and the psychological trauma?

2. If a pregnant woman choses abortion, is she at GREATER RISK of psychological trauma than if she chooses to continue the pregnancy?

3. If there is a significant risk, HOW GREAT is the risk?

Have you answered these questions? Also, how would you counsel women who are trying to make this decision?

you and I have different agendas here...

_

angelica wrote:

you and I have different agendas here...

WTF?? My agenda is to ask you direct questions and your agenda is to not answer them.

As with my ego, you don't know the first thing about me or my agenda.

Are you refusing to answer my questions then?

angelica

scb wrote:

WTF?? My agenda is to ask you direct questions and your agenda is to not answer them.

As with my ego, you don't know the first thing about me or my agenda.

Are you refusing to answer my questions then?

Your talking about different issues than is my personal direction in this thread. More power to you for what you'd like to present.

I'm here to address my agenda.

catefrances

i dont understand all this agenda talk.

_

angelica wrote:

Your talking about different issues than is my personal direction in this thread. More power to you for what you'd like to present.

I'm here to address my agenda.

I'm talking about the issues that YOU brought up, but whatever. I don't know what your agenda/point is anyway.

My agenda is to refute medical misinformation.

_

angelica wrote:

-Approximately 14% of women who have an abortion will miscarry a future pregnancy, and that risk increases to 200% with multiple abortions.
.....Journal of the American Medical Association, Vol. 243, (1980) pp 2495-2499.

This is just another example of you implying something that you can later turn around and say you never actually said.

By stating that “14% of women who have an abortion will miscarry a future pregnancy,” you imply that abortion causes miscarriage of future pregnancies. But you fail, of course, to mention that 14% of ALL pregnancies end in miscarriage. (Source: Finer & Henshaw. Disparities in rates of unintended pregnancies in the United States, 1994 and 2001. Perspectives on Sexual and Reproductive Health. 2006;38(2):90–96.) So there is, in fact, NO INCREASE in risk of miscarriage for women who have had an abortion.

Even the article you are citing says itself, “No increase in risk of pregnancy loss was detected among women with a single prior induced abortion.”

Regarding your assertion that 200% of women who have multiple abortions will miscarry a future pregnancy, I don’t even know how it's possible for twice as many women to have miscarriages due to abortions that only half that number of women had. Does that mean if I have more than one abortion I'm not only going to cause myself to miscarry, but I'm also going to cause some other innocent woman to miscarry as well? Do I get to pick the woman so she doesn't have to pay for an abortion?

angelica wrote:

-After abortion, 24% of women experience complications with later pregnancies. These include excessive bleeding, premature delivery, cervical incompetence or rupture of the placenta.
.....Acta/Obstetrics and Gynecology Scandinavia, Vol. 58 (1979), pp. 491-494, American Journal of Obs/Gyn Vol. 141 (1981), pp.769-772 and Vol. 146 (1983), pp.136-140.

-Tubal (ectopic) pregnancies increase by 30% after one abortion, and by 160% after 2 or more abortions.
.....American Journal of Obs.& Gyn, Vol. 160 (1988), pp. 642-6.

-The risk of placenta previa, which produces extremely severe, life-threatening bleeding during future pregnancies, is increased by 600% after an abortion.
.....American Journal of Obs. & Gyn., Vol. 141 (1981), pp. 769-772.

Here's what just one recent study had to say: "Induced abortion is not an independent risk factor for adverse obstetric outcome.”
(Source: Raatikainen K, Heiskanen N, Heinonen S. Induced abortion: not an independent risk factor for pregnancy outcome, but a challenge for health counseling. Ann Epidemiol. Aug 2006;16(8):587-592.)

angelica wrote:

-Approximately 10% of women undergoing elective abortion will suffer immediate complications. The most common complications that can occur at the time of an abortion are:
perforation of the uterus
excessive bleeding
infection
embolism
retained tissue
hemorrhage
cervical injury
endotoxic shock
"boggy" uterus
failure to recognize an ectopic pregnancy

.....Warren Hern, Abortion Practice (Philadelphia: J.B. Lippincott Company, 1990).

I don't believe it's true that a full 10% of ALL women having abortions will have complications.

Dr. Hern is a 3rd trimester abortion provider though, and we all know that, while less than 1% of abortions in the U.S. are performed in the 3rd trimester, the procedure is much more risky at that time.

angelica

scb wrote:

angelica wrote:

-After abortion, 24% of women experience complications with later pregnancies. These include excessive bleeding, premature delivery, cervical incompetence or rupture of the placenta.
.....Acta/Obstetrics and Gynecology Scandinavia, Vol. 58 (1979), pp. 491-494, American Journal of Obs/Gyn Vol. 141 (1981), pp.769-772 and Vol. 146 (1983), pp.136-140.

-Tubal (ectopic) pregnancies increase by 30% after one abortion, and by 160% after 2 or more abortions.
.....American Journal of Obs.& Gyn, Vol. 160 (1988), pp. 642-6.

-The risk of placenta previa, which produces extremely severe, life-threatening bleeding during future pregnancies, is increased by 600% after an abortion.
.....American Journal of Obs. & Gyn., Vol. 141 (1981), pp. 769-772.

Here's what just one recent study had to say: "Induced abortion is not an independent risk factor for adverse obstetric outcome.”
(Source: Raatikainen K, Heiskanen N, Heinonen S. Induced abortion: not an independent risk factor for pregnancy outcome, but a challenge for health counseling. Ann Epidemiol. Aug 2006;16(8):587-592.)

right. we have numerous obgyn sources with specific and varied findings, to one recent one ..... you may be willing to believe one over the others. Other people may not be so quick to the same conclusions.

Especially when some key differences between studies done 30 or so years ago and now is the social and political climate regarding abortion....

I don't believe it's true that a full 10% of ALL women having abortions will have complications.

Dr. Hern is a 3rd trimester abortion provider though, and we all know that, while less than 1% of abortions in the U.S. are performed in the 3rd trimester, the procedure is much more risky at that time.

And again, you might be willing to go by your beliefs...others may not be so quick to share them. Your opinion is acknowledged, though. If you can prove your guess as being factually accurate, I'd love to hear it.

_

angelica wrote:

right. we have numerous obgyn sources with specific and varied findings, to one recent one ..... you may be willing to believe one over the others. Other people may not be so quick to the same conclusions.

Especially when some key differences between studies done 30 or so years ago and now is the social and political climate regarding abortion....

There are numerous recent sources to support the one I cited. But you're going to have to do some of this research yourself, Angelica; I just don't have time to spoon-feed every study to you.

Remember, you're the one who said, "I'm definitely saying these studies are as accurate as any studies we have, until proven otherwise. That's how science works."

angelica wrote:

And again, you might be willing to go by your beliefs...others may not be so quick to share them. Your opinion is acknowledged, though. If you can prove your guess as being factually accurate, I'd love to hear it.

Which part of my statement (don't be so condescending as to call it a "guess," please) are you challenging? That 3rd-trimester abortions result in many more complications than do 1st-trimester abortions? That less than 10% of all women in the U.S. who have abortions experience significant complications?

A quick search on the CDC website should prove that for you:

"Fewer than one woman in 100 develops a major complication from induced abortion, and fewer than one in 100,000 dies. The risk of morbidity and mortality from legal abortion is directly related to gestational age at the time of abortion—the earlier the gestation, the safer the procedure.”

VictoryGin

scb wrote:

This is just another example of you implying something that you can later turn around and say you never actually said.

By stating that “14% of women who have an abortion will miscarry a future pregnancy,” you imply that abortion causes miscarriage of future pregnancies. But you fail, of course, to mention that 14% of ALL pregnancies end in miscarriage. (Source: Finer & Henshaw. Disparities in rates of unintended pregnancies in the United States, 1994 and 2001. Perspectives on Sexual and Reproductive Health. 2006;38(2):90–96.) So there is, in fact, NO INCREASE in risk of miscarriage for women who have had an abortion.

Even the article you are citing says itself, “No increase in risk of pregnancy loss was detected among women with a single prior induced abortion.”

Regarding your assertion that 200% of women who have multiple abortions will miscarry a future pregnancy, I don’t even know how it's possible for twice as many women to have miscarriages due to abortions that only half that number of women had. Does that mean if I have more than one abortion I'm not only going to cause myself to miscarry, but I'm also going to cause some other innocent woman to miscarry as well? Do I get to pick the woman so she doesn't have to pay for an abortion?



Here's what just one recent study had to say: "Induced abortion is not an independent risk factor for adverse obstetric outcome.”
(Source: Raatikainen K, Heiskanen N, Heinonen S. Induced abortion: not an independent risk factor for pregnancy outcome, but a challenge for health counseling. Ann Epidemiol. Aug 2006;16(8):587-592.)



I don't believe it's true that a full 10% of ALL women having abortions will have complications.

Dr. Hern is a 3rd trimester abortion provider though, and we all know that, while less than 1% of abortions in the U.S. are performed in the 3rd trimester, the procedure is much more risky at that time.

will you be my bff?

_

VictoryGin wrote:

will you be my bff?

Sure!

cincybearcat

All these stats of complications, etc...

Confuses the fact that in 100% of abortions someone dies.

saveuplife

cincybearcat wrote:

All these stats of complications, etc...

Confuses the fact that in 100% of abortions someone dies.

But, as many have said here, that doesn't matter. It's worse to inconvenience someone.

Sweet Emotion

saveuplife wrote:

But, as many have said here, that doesn't matter. It's worse to inconvenience someone.

The reply you have made is hateful and judgmental. Saying what you have, removes the humanity from the women who go through this, and so you
have personally, just killed all of them. All for the inconvenience of having to think and explore with some depth, more actually, what reasons may exist.
How's that feel, murderer? Enjoy your blood lust.

saveuplife

Sweet Emotion wrote:

The reply you have made is hateful and judgmental. Saying what you have, removes the humanity from the women who go through this, and so you
have personally, just killed all of them. All for the inconvenience of having to think and explore with some depth, more actually, what reasons may exist.
How's that feel, murderer? Enjoy your blood lust.

Um Yea.

angelica

scb wrote:

A quick search on the CDC website should prove that for you...

Very interesting. a 'quick search' on the cdc site you have provided shows one thing: that the source you cite references studies from the 70s, 80s and early 90s, just like the sources I cited had.

What's interesting, though, is when I posted those "old" studies you said:

scb wrote:

You are using only sources that are outdated and/or say what your agenda seeks to hear. You are not open to truth or reality.

scb wrote:

It's literally accurate that there were studies done a long time ago that indicated some negative effects of abortion. That's a fact. Just like there were studies done a long time ago that indicated that the world is flat.

There we have it. It is clear that this is about how these studies, facts and data are being interpreted, which is, again, about the agenda of the one doing the interpretation. That is not about the facts and data, themselves, which are neutral, truthful, and agenda-free.



For example: when I use a study from the seventies to make a point, you see fit to bring up a flat-earth slant.

And at the same time, you quote this from the cdc site: ""Fewer than one woman in 100 develops a major complication from induced abortion, and fewer than one in 100,000 dies. The risk of morbidity and mortality from legal abortion is directly related to gestational age at the time of abortion—the earlier the gestation, the safer the procedure.”

..while this very quote references a 1970s article.... (complications from legally induced abortions: a review, 1979)

You can no longer deny personal agenda, clinging to the illusion of mythbusting and the respectable refuting of "medical misinformation".

It's a sham to imagine any of this is as being beyond personal agenda and individual bias. especially when the personal agendas and manipulation of the data are so clear.

angelica

And yet there are numerous studies and numerous complications such as the following that have not been addressed or effectively refuted in this thread :

-A teenage girl is 10 times more likely to attempt suicide if she has had an abortion in the last six months.
-A survey of post-abortive women found that:
28% attempted suicide
31% experienced suicidal feelings
60% commented that the decision to abort made their lives worse
94% regretted the decision to abort
-After abortion, 24% of women experience complications with later pregnancies. These include excessive bleeding, premature delivery, cervical incompetence or rupture of the placenta.
-Women who abort are nearly four times more likely to start abusing alcohol or drugs.
....."New Study Confirms Link Between Abortion and Substance Abuse," The Post Abortion Review, Vol. 1 No. 3, Fall 1993.
-Tubal (ectopic) pregnancies increase by 30% after one abortion, and by 160% after 2 or more abortions.
-The risk of placenta previa, which produces extremely severe, life-threatening bleeding during future pregnancies, is increased by 600% after an abortion.
-Approximately 10% of women undergoing elective abortion will suffer immediate complications. The most common complications that can occur at the time of an abortion are:
perforation of the uterus
excessive bleeding
infection
embolism
retained tissue
hemorrhage
cervical injury
endotoxic shock
"boggy" uterus
failure to recognize an ectopic pregnancy





it's clear that this entire debate is about personal opinion of the facts, and is therefore arbitrary and/or subjective. I therefore encourage all women to look at the facts for themselves, and to interpret said facts, so that they accurately reflect her, her life, her values and her intents and purposes given the situation. Those who present the facts within each individual slant are not presenting the objective truth to you...they are presenting their own subjective view of it, which will represent the context that individual or group is representing. And when someone tells you that "this or that" is proven, or otherwise uses authority or 'facts' or 'science' to tell you what you feel, or believe is not authentic, true or realistic, or that it's not 'normal' or whatever....again, that is about agenda, about politics and about power plays and abuse of power. Beware, as that individual/group does not have your best interests at heart. As women, we can trust our selves, our lives, our contexts and our personal beliefs to lead us to what is right for us. We can find what works for and represents our personal perspectives, and let what does not fit fall away.