I thought I'd start a thread on Abortion

catefrances

catch22 wrote:

i was making a crack because they seemed to be saying that being a misogynist and a liberal were contradictory... and i'm living proof that is not true i thought they were calling me a conservative or something, which insulted me, hehe.

so i'm pro-choice, pro-sex ed, and i like to objectify women which makes me kind of sexist/misogynistic. that's the contradiction i referred to.

well i too would be offended if someone called me a conservative.

well i can see why you'd be prochoice. bit difficult to have those misogynistic hot chick dreams if all the girls are heavily pregnant cause they couldnt exercise their 'illegal' prochoice rights.

however i still dont see you as being contradictory with those views.

CorporateWhore

catch22 wrote:

shit, why are there any nurses? they could make more as a doctor!

Transition costs. Something called an MD.

Abortionists have very small transition costs if they chose to deliver babies in a regular hospital.

_

CorporateWhore wrote:

scb wrote:

Obviously you don't know (m)any abortion providers. Most/many of them deliver many, many more babies than they abort.

False. Abortion providers specialize in abortion procedures. Women who wish to carry their child to term do not go to abortion clinics. The clinics can develop economies of scale by bringin' in young ladies, hackin the baby up and sending the girl out the door in just a few hours. They don't really give a fuck about the girl, they're mainly concerned with makin' dat money.

scb wrote:

And the fee for prenatal care & delivery is considerably higher than the fee for abortion - not to mention the lifetime of revenue generated by a kid who is born.

Haha! I see you know a lot about profitable business operations ::sarcasm::

The average abortion takes less time to perform than prenatal care and delivery. The woman walks in, asks for an abortion, the clinic jumps through a few legalistic hoops and wham, the abortion has been performed and the clinic got their cash.

It's a profitable business because it doesn't take as much time. So, you can cram a lot of dead babies into the work day. The abortionist develops economies of scale because he can become specialized in that trade, much like a midwife is specialized in delivering babies.

Delivering a live baby introduces costly complications. Then ya got two people that you need to give medical care. That costs money!

The abortionist just has to worry about one person, so he can focus on not fucking up with the woman. He can do whatever he wants to the baby's carcass. No worries there - toss it in the trash can.

The doctor that delivers the baby must treat it like a human being, and that is costly!!!

scb wrote:

So it would actually be MUCH more financially beneficial for these doctors to be biased in support of childbirth, not abortion.

The average abortion takes less time to perform than prenatal care and delivery. The woman walks in, asks for an abortion, the clinic jumps through a few legalistic hoops and wham, the abortion has been performed and the clinic got their cash.

I would be interested in seeing what kind of figures you can draw up describing the expected revenues that the average delivered baby and its mother would bring in to a specialized abortionist. How can you predict that at all?

If it was always more profitable to deliver babies instead of abort them, abortionists wouldn't choose that trade. They are running a business out of choice. The government hasn't made them become abortionists, and if they could make more money delivering babies instead of murdering them, any sound business mind would choose to deliver babies.

I hate to be the one to break it to you, but you don’t know what you’re talking about.

A. The doctors who work at abortion clinics are usually Obstetricians and Family Practitioners. They frequently work at abortion clinics in addition to their primary practice of delivering babies and providing other primary care. Providing abortions is only one small part of their practice.

B. Not all abortions are done at abortion clinics and abortions clinics don’t only provide abortions. It’s inappropriate to try to isolate “abortion doctors” and “abortion clinics” as entities that are separate from the rest of medical care.

C. You know you can’t legitimately say who someone else is or isn’t concerned with. Like I said, obviously you don’t know (m)any abortion providers. If you truly believe that doctors who perform abortions don’t care about their patients, be sure to ask yours and/or your wife’s/girlfriend’s doctor whether s/he has ever performed an abortion. You might be surprised.

D. Of course abortions take less time to perform than an entire pregnancy worth of prenatal care and delivery. But the average prenatal visit takes less time than an abortion, so you can fit more of these patients into a workday. And the prenatal patient pays more, must keep coming back, and is more prevalent. Your argument that abortion providers are in it for the money just doesn’t make sense. Neither does your claim that abortions make money and prenatal care & deliveries cost money. You can’t have it both ways.

E. You’re right that a sound business mind would choose to deliver babies rather than abort them. That just proves my point that the doctors aren’t in it for the money.

catch22

catefrances wrote:

well i too would be offended if someone called me a conservative.

well i can see why you'd be prochoice. bit difficult to have those misogynistic hot chick dreams if all the girls are heavily pregnant cause they couldnt exercise their 'illegal' prochoice rights.

however i still dont see you as being contradictory with those views.

hehe, speaking as guy who's had to make an emergency morning after pill run with a girl or two in my day, thank god for those places!

glad it's not a contradiction

catefrances

angelica wrote:

People represent their unconscious bias all the time, whether it's acknowledged or not.

well shit angelica how could people possibly acknowledge something they are unconscious of in the first place? once its acknowledged tis no longer unconscious is it?

_

catch22 wrote:

that was me, not corporatewhore. and i'm firmly pro-choice and pro-real sex ed. can your wrap your mind around that contradiction? not all misogynists are right-wing conservatives and i really resent the latter implication. it is incredibly offensive!

I know who it was. But I wasn't talking about you specifically.

My only point was that it's hypocrital for people (in general) to talk about how there should be less unintended pregnancy and also encourage men to have as much sex as they possibly can. Edit: It was a crack about conservatives, not misogynists. (Edit again: it was only a crack about those conservative who spout off about reducing the unintended pregnancy rate and then do their part to keep it high. It was not a generalization about conservatives - or misogynists.)

catefrances

catch22 wrote:

hehe, speaking as guy who's had to make an emergency morning after pill run with a girl or two in my day, thank god for those places!

glad it's not a contradiction

you sir, need to be more careful. ever thought of abstinence?

catch22

CorporateWhore wrote:

Transition costs. Something called an MD.

Abortionists have very small transition costs if they chose to deliver babies in a regular hospital.

this helps your point not at all. if abortions are so profitable and the only think stopping everyone in the world from seeking the higher paying job is transition costs, shouldn't all the baby-deliverers be leaving to be abortionists? still low transition costs right? and that's where the money's at right? and being a doctor is just a money-making business right? i mean, the only reason any doctor has ever performed an abortion is because it's an economic goldmine, not because some doctors view it as a legitimate medical service they can provide?

anyway, maybe it would be cheap for abortionists to move to hospitals and deliver babies, but you can't put a transition cost price tag on the satisfaction one gets from murdering and chopping up babies, now, can you?

catch22

scb wrote:

I know who it was. But I wasn't talking about you specifically.

My only point was that it's hypocrital for people (in general) to talk about how there should be less unintended pregnancy and also encourage men to have as much sex as they possibly can. Edit: It was a crack about conservatives, not misogynists. (Edit again: it was only a crack about those conservative who spout off about reducing the unintended pregnancy rate and then do their part to keep it high. It was not a generalization about conservatives - or misogynists.)

i gotcha. i realized i didnt read it right the first time. i always have fun with those conservatives... the ones who pout off about abortion and gay marriage and whatnot. ask them if they've ever had sex with someone they are not married to. they get real quiet and pissed off real fast. it's fun.

catch22

catefrances wrote:

you sir, need to be more careful. ever thought of abstinence?

yeah, that's worked out real well for the priesthood hasn't it?

decides2dream

catch22 wrote:

so which values and options are being minimized?

also, you think this doesn't happen on the other side? hell, i'll take an unconscious bias coming through rather than the browbeating and outright knowing emotional manipulation used by the pro-life crowd. the stuff they do to women who walk into their clinics is sick and i can't imagine any pro-choice bias that could come close to it.

EXACTLY..i find it interesting that apparently this 'bias'...only exists on the side of those who are pro-choice...but that couldn't possibly be the individual bias of those who state such. we ALL have personal bias...and i for one think a place like planned parenthood for example would more than likely be far more open, and as unbiased as possible in their advice, than say a catholic family planning office....which basically entirely leave out or minimize certain options out there.



it's kinds like those that advocate abstinence-only education. yes, let's just bury our heads in the sand and see what happens. :rolleyes:



funny thing too...i see mentione of most/many abortion clinics....and what a term in any case b/c the are FAR MORE than 'abortion clinics'...but i digress. anyhoo, i see mention they are only in inner-city low income areas. hmmmmm. i disagree. while no, i don't think there is one next to saks on fifth avenue....they are everywhere. i also do believe that most abortions are NOT performed on the low-income women...but more women OF means, and educated. so thos stats just don't fly.


one other thing...the whole 'love with consequences thing'....seriously? BEFORE BC that is EXACTLY what we had....have unwanted children....and i don't think that worked out so peachy for many, many women, children and families...and there is NO correlation of it lessening sexual activity. so again, i am all about OPTIONS....and let's look at the MOST important options: ACCESS to BC, availabilty and affordability....and education........and beyond that, sure....ALL options avaialbe, legal and safe.

scb wrote:

I hate to be the one to break it to you, but you don’t know what you’re talking about.

A. The doctors who work at abortion clinics are usually Obstetricians and Family Practitioners. They frequently work at abortion clinics in addition to their primary practice of delivering babies and providing other primary care. Providing abortions is only one small part of their practice.

B. Not all abortions are done at abortion clinics and abortions clinics don’t only provide abortions. It’s inappropriate to try to isolate “abortion doctors” and “abortion clinics” as entities that are separate from the rest of medical care.

C. You know you can’t legitimately say who someone else is or isn’t concerned with. Like I said, obviously you don’t know (m)any abortion providers. If you truly believe that doctors who perform abortions don’t care about their patients, be sure to ask yours and/or your wife’s/girlfriend’s doctor whether s/he has ever performed an abortion. You might be surprised.

D. Of course abortions take less time to perform than an entire pregnancy worth of prenatal care and delivery. But the average prenatal visit takes less time than an abortion, so you can fit more of these patients into a workday. And the prenatal patient pays more, must keep coming back, and is more prevalent. Your argument that abortion providers are in it for the money just doesn’t make sense. Neither does your claim that abortions make money and prenatal care & deliveries cost money. You can’t have it both ways.

E. You’re right that a sound business mind would choose to deliver babies rather than abort them. That just proves my point that the doctors aren’t in it for the money.

and scb, would you please stop being so damn rational and objective about it...your obvious personal bias to support OPTIONS of ALL kinds...is showing....;)

catefrances

catch22 wrote:

yeah, that's worked out real well for the priesthood hasn't it?

well thats cause as it turns out, they havent actually been abstaining. fornication is the devils work we all know that.

catch22

catefrances wrote:

well thats cause as it turns out, they havent actually been abstaining. fornication is the devils work we all know that.

and i am the devil's plaything. oh sweet sin!

_

catch22 wrote:

hehe, speaking as guy who's had to make an emergency morning after pill run with a girl or two in my day, thank god for those places!

glad it's not a contradiction

This is a total aside, and you probably already know this, and now I'll be accused of promoting evil ways, but you do know that you yourself can get the morning after pill from a pharmacy without a prescription in advance in case of future need, right?

catch22

decides2dream wrote:

funny thing too...i see mentione of most/many abortion clinics....and what a term in any case b/c the are FAR MORE than 'abortion clinics'...but i digress. anyhoo, i see mention they are only in inner-city low income areas. hmmmmm. i disagree. while no, i don't think there is one next to saks on fifth avenue....they are everywhere. i also do believe that most abortions are NOT performed on the low-income women...but more women OF means, and educated. so thos stats just don't fly.

tht is for damn certain. i worked for the inner-city foster care system in chicago. those girls were NOT having abortions. nor were they using any birth control. why? because the same folks who want to outlaw abortion also want to make sure teenagers never hear the word condom and can't get a birth control prescription without a fire and brimstone sermon attached.

catch22

scb wrote:

This is a total aside, and you probably already know this, and now I'll be accused of promoting evil ways, but you do know that you yourself can get the morning after pill from a pharmacy without a prescription in advance in case of future need, right?

i had no idea. that would have come in handy. at least i'll know that when i finally land a job on a college campus

_

decides2dream wrote:

and scb, would you please stop being so damn rational and objective about it...your obvious personal bias to support OPTIONS of ALL kinds...is showing....;)

Haha! Yeah, I know... I'm biased toward being unbiased... what a horrible, evil person I am!

Vedderlution_Baby

scb wrote:

This is a total aside, and you probably already know this, and now I'll be accused of promoting evil ways, but you do know that you yourself can get the morning after pill from a pharmacy without a prescription in advance in case of future need, right?

Unless you happen to get the guy who considers him giving a woman BC or EC against his morals and decides his isn't going to do it.



But maybe that's a completely different thread.

catefrances

catch22 wrote:

and i am the devil's plaything. oh sweet sin!

im sure you are. do you have horns and red hot poker?

anyhoo... pregnant women should be handed all the choices they can be in order that they be able to make an informed decision about their future. and all those choices should be legal. if you are not one of the possibly two people involved in this decision then you need to mind your own business cause its not your concern.

CorporateWhore

scb wrote:

A. The doctors who work at abortion clinics are usually Obstetricians and Family Practitioners. They frequently work at abortion clinics in addition to their primary practice of delivering babies and providing other primary care. Providing abortions is only one small part of their practice.

Frequently, the people who say "you don't know what you're talking about" say that because they really have no clue. They don't know that they don't know what they're talking about. And they frequently offer comments that make absolutely no sense, like the one you just typed out.

Think before you type.

Consider what you just said: abortionists work at abortion clinics in addition to their primary practice.

While they're working at the abortion clinic, they're not adivising women to leave the clinic and visit their OB/GYN office to deliver the child. The women are there to get an abortion. This assumes that the abortionist has another office that does not do abortions, which you have provided no statistical evidence for.

Here's what you said:

Obviously you don't know (m)any abortion providers. Most/many of them deliver many, many more babies than they abort.

Abortionists never deliver babies at abortion clinics, and that was all I was saying.

You also do not have any proof that when abortionists leave their abortion mill, they suddenly go back to their private practice and deliver a bunch of babies. You're just making stuff up and there is no data to support that claim. Abortion is the most common medical surgery in America. There's no reason to believe that abortionists dabble in both deliveries and abortions.

When abortionists want to make the real bucks, they butcher babies at an abortion mill. That's why they do it - not because they support a woman's right to choose or whatever. It's quick and profitable.

B. Not all abortions are done at abortion clinics and abortions clinics don’t only provide abortions. It’s inappropriate to try to isolate “abortion doctors” and “abortion clinics” as entities that are separate from the rest of medical care.

This is all made up. Abortion is the most common surgical procedure, and there is a vast business in it. The rest of the medical world is concerned with treatment and life-giving, while abortionists throw babies in the trash.

It is its own medical sphere and there is a significant shadow cast upon those who enter it. Most doctors choose to enter less controversial medical practices because abortion is stigmatized among the medical community.

C. You know you can’t legitimately say who someone else is or isn’t concerned with. Like I said, obviously you don’t know (m)any abortion providers. If you truly believe that doctors who perform abortions don’t care about their patients, be sure to ask yours and/or your wife’s/girlfriend’s doctor whether s/he has ever performed an abortion. You might be surprised.

Again, you're just making stuff up to make it seem like abortion is widely accepted in the medical community. No evidence for your claims at all.

D. Of course abortions take less time to perform than an entire pregnancy worth of prenatal care and delivery. But the average prenatal visit takes less time than an abortion, so you can fit more of these patients into a workday. And the prenatal patient pays more, must keep coming back, and is more prevalent. Your argument that abortion providers are in it for the money just doesn’t make sense. Neither does your claim that abortions make money and prenatal care & deliveries cost money. You can’t have it both ways.

No, you simply don't comprehend what I said.

Abortions are a one time procedure. You're in, you're out. One time payment.

Pre-natal care consists of multiple visits with small fees with the same patient. They take up considerable time and there are multiple variables that can increase the time the patient spends there.

It is not profitable to encounter new situations that take up the doctor's time. There are far more variables when the doctor is trying to deliver a healthy baby instead of abort the baby and make sure the girl can get out of the clinic before closing time.

Abortion clinics operate like assembly lines. The same basic procedure happens over and over.

Pre-natal care centers operate like marketing firms. Each client is special and it takes time to address their needs.

E. You’re right that a sound business mind would choose to deliver babies rather than abort them. That just proves my point that the doctors aren’t in it for the money.

...whatever...