I thought I'd start a thread on Abortion

angelica

know1 wrote:

Still disagree. There are TONS of options or choices out there. What the pro-abortion crowd really cares about is having abortion as an option.

Abortion always is an option, legal or not.

What concerns me is that so many have a personal biased agenda regarding abortion that they cannot truly represent, present or support all options. And when such biases exist, underlying and infringing messages get conveyed to sensitive individuals looking for much needed help.

catch22

angelica wrote:

What concerns me is that so many have a personal biased agenda regarding abortion that they cannot truly represent, present or support all options. And when such biases exist, underlying and infringing messages get conveyed to sensitive individuals looking for much needed help.

i have no idea what this means.

Collin

know1 wrote:

Still disagree. There are TONS of options or choices out there. What the pro-abortion crowd really cares about is having abortion as an option.

Yes, they care about options and choices. You can't say that about anti-freedom crowd. They want to impose their will on the rest of society.

angelica

catch22 wrote:

i have no idea what this means.

It means that my concern is that those who are "there" for ones considering abortion unconsciously communicate their own biases to the person looking for support, rather than present clear options, minus personal bias. And also that those who have a personally biased view of abortion (for example that it is morally an okay choice) cannot accept that the person considering abortion may come from a different place, with values which state the exact opposite. I've seen such values minimized by biased individuals trying to present the "facts" when really they are presenting biased opinion and a personal morality. Those looking for support then find their own position being minimized and devalued, when they are already in a very vulnerable, precarious position.

angelica

Collin wrote:

Yes, they care about options and choices. You can't say that about anti-freedom crowd. They want to impose their will on the rest of society.

They believe they care about options and choices, until their own personal biases block them from truly accepting all options and choices. I see this all the time. They unconsciously shut down options by devaluing and minimizing them.

catch22

angelica wrote:

It means that my concern is that those who are "there" for ones considering abortion unconsciously communicate their own biases to the person looking for support, rather than present clear options, minus personal bias. And also that those who have a personally biased view of abortion (for example that it is morally an okay choice) cannot accept that the person considering abortion may come from a different place, with values which state the exact opposite. I've seen such values minimized by biased individuals trying to present the "facts" when really they are presenting biased opinion and a personal morality. Those looking for support then find their own position being minimized and devalued, when they are already in a very vulnerable, precarious position.

so which values and options are being minimized?

also, you think this doesn't happen on the other side? hell, i'll take an unconscious bias coming through rather than the browbeating and outright knowing emotional manipulation used by the pro-life crowd. the stuff they do to women who walk into their clinics is sick and i can't imagine any pro-choice bias that could come close to it.

Collin

angelica wrote:

They believe they care about options and choices, until their own personal biases block them from truly accepting all options and choices. I see this all the time. They unconsciously shut down options by devaluing and minimizing them.

I can't speak for everyone. I don't think anyone can speak for a group so diverse, not even you, Angelica. You have no idea what they believe, because they are a million and more people.

I can only speak for myself. I believe abortion should be legal. I'm not an advocate of abortion. I'm against it in almost all cases. I think the option should be there. I hold this stance for several reasons, one of those reasons is that I believe people should have the choice.

Of course I have there's bias in my view, there's bias in your view and there's bias in everyone's view.

All we can do, I think, is provide all the information and leave the choices to the people. How can we do that when you outlaw one of those choices?

_

know1 wrote:

There is a lot of spewing propaganda and anecdotes on both sides of this issue. In my opinion, more of it comes from the pro-abortion side of things.

I don't understand how people can call medical/scientific knowledge propaganda or just dismiss it when it doesn't suit them. If I need to know about abortion, or about the unborn baby growing inside me, I will ask a doctor - not any random kook with a website.

I don't see anti-abortion people getting their own prenatal care from these sources. Why do they then think they're reasonable sources from which to get information if the pregnancy is to be aborted?

_

know1 wrote:

Why do you need data? Isn't it common sense that if the consequences of an action are going to be greater, that less people will participate?

Since murder and theft are going to occur whether they are legal or not, should we make them legal too?

How many TV stars would sign up for "Circus of the Stars" if there wasn't a safety net under the trapeze?

Something seeming like common sense to you is hardly grounds for legal change. This is why we have research studies and data. I'd like to see some that back up your claim that forcing women to carry unwanted pregnancies to term will decrease unintended pregnancy.

Outlawing abortion doesn't have a significant impact on incidence of abortion, so obviously it doesn't have a significant impact on unintended pregnancy either.

_

know1 wrote:

So focus on something that you can make light of rather than address what I'm really saying - that it's odd to say that abortions are easier to come by than other forms of birth control.

I don't think anyone has ever said it's easier to get an abortion than to get birth control.

_

decides2dream wrote:

YAY!
ooooooooo..i want to go out and purposely have unprotected sex....get pregnant so i can have an abortion! it Is so much FUN! i LOVE getting abortions...making such decisions without a care in the world...and i like to do it ofen...so that YAY! i can have an abortion again and again! they are the BEST!

WHAT?! You're crazy! I don't want to have an abortion! Those things hurt - and cause breast cancer and psychological trauma. :eek:

What I want to do is make everyone else have an abortion! Damn those women and their choices! Fuck choice! Childbirth is not an option - they MUST ALL HAVE ABORTIONS!!

:rolleyes:

_

angelica wrote:

What concerns me is that so many have a personal biased agenda regarding abortion that they cannot truly represent, present or support all options. And when such biases exist, underlying and infringing messages get conveyed to sensitive individuals looking for much needed help.

You seriously think people actually misrepresent childbirth options so as to convince pregnant women to have abortions? Seriously - where do you get this stuff from? And who are these people? And how do you know?

_

angelica wrote:

It means that my concern is that those who are "there" for ones considering abortion unconsciously communicate their own biases to the person looking for support, rather than present clear options, minus personal bias. And also that those who have a personally biased view of abortion (for example that it is morally an okay choice) cannot accept that the person considering abortion may come from a different place, with values which state the exact opposite. I've seen such values minimized by biased individuals trying to present the "facts" when really they are presenting biased opinion and a personal morality. Those looking for support then find their own position being minimized and devalued, when they are already in a very vulnerable, precarious position.

And where does this expertise of yours in pregnancy options counseling/counselors come from?

_

angelica wrote:

They believe they care about options and choices, until their own personal biases block them from truly accepting all options and choices. I see this all the time. They unconsciously shut down options by devaluing and minimizing them.

You see this all the time? Really? Because you frequently go to the doctor's for counseling about your unwanted pregnancies?

I don't understand what so-called biases you're talking about. You imply that there are some people who want to convince women to have abortions just as there are some who want to convince them to not have abortions. I have NEVER met an options counselor (or even a person of any occupation) who wants to convince women to have abortions.

angelica

catch22 wrote:

so which values and options are being minimized?

also, you think this doesn't happen on the other side? hell, i'll take an unconscious bias coming through rather than the browbeating and outright knowing emotional manipulation used by the pro-life crowd. the stuff they do to women who walk into their clinics is sick and i can't imagine any pro-choice bias that could come close to it.

No bias, minimization or slanted influence can be effectively justified.

angelica

scb wrote:

You seriously think people actually misrepresent childbirth options so as to convince pregnant women to have abortions? Seriously - where do you get this stuff from? And who are these people? And how do you know?

People represent their unconscious bias all the time, whether it's acknowledged or not.

angelica

Collin wrote:

I can't speak for everyone. I don't think anyone can speak for a group so diverse, not even you, Angelica. You have no idea what they believe, because they are a million and more people.

I can only speak for myself. I believe abortion should be legal. I'm not an advocate of abortion. I'm against it in almost all cases. I think the option should be there. I hold this stance for several reasons, one of those reasons is that I believe people should have the choice.

Of course I have there's bias in my view, there's bias in your view and there's bias in everyone's view.

All we can do, I think, is provide all the information and leave the choices to the people. How can we do that when you outlaw one of those choices?

The only group I speak to is those who do what I refer to - act on and influence the impressionable, based on personal slanted bias. Those who do not are not included.

_

angelica wrote:

scb wrote:

You seriously think people actually misrepresent childbirth options so as to convince pregnant women to have abortions? Seriously - where do you get this stuff from? And who are these people? And how do you know?

People represent their unconscious bias all the time, whether it's acknowledged or not.

You didn't answer my questions, so I'll ask again:

From where do you get this stuff? Who are these people? How do you know?

I persist because I think it's one thing to say people in general - like on a message board - are biased in support of abortion (which I don't think is true); but I think it's downright libelous & disrespectful to suggest that hard-working, caring, medical professionals are out there preying on distraught women so as to propagate a pro-abortion agenda rather than being objective and supportive.

angelica

scb wrote:

You didn't answer my questions, so I'll ask again:

From where do you get this stuff? Who are these people? How do you know?

I persist because I think it's one thing to say people in general - like on a message board - are biased in support of abortion (which I don't think is true); but I think it's downright libelous & disrespectful to suggest that hard-working, caring, medical professionals are out there preying on distraught women so as to propagate a pro-abortion agenda rather than being objective and supportive.

I am talking about those who influence on this subject, period. We're all interconnected and do so all the time. I at no time specified that I refer to medical professionals specifically. As usual, you have misconstrued my points, and take your fallacious view to represent my actual view.

The truth exists on its own whether it is being perceived through the smokescreen of our inner filters or not. Medical professionals are responsible for biased influence when they act in a way that is biased and influential. Counsellors or any other representives, as well. And also family, friends, other caregivers or even those on message boards. This means in moment to moment, from action/influence to action/influence. It's self-evident.

catch22

angelica wrote:

I am talking about those who influence on this subject, period. We're all interconnected and do so all the time. I at no time specified that I refer to medical professionals specifically. As usual, you have misconstrued my points, and take your fallacious view to represent my actual view.

The truth exists on its own whether it is being perceived through the smokescreen of our inner filters or not. Medical professionals are responsible for biased influence when they act in a way that is biased and influential. Counsellors or any other representives, as well. And also family, friends, other caregivers or even those on message boards. This means in moment to moment, from action/influence to action/influence. It's self-evident.

got any real world examples for us, instead of textbook gibberish? which values and options are being minimized and how? how do you know about it, aside from your assumption that everyone automatically (except for you, of course) is biased and manipulative in their actions and speech on this issue?