Still disagree. There are TONS of options or choices out there. What the pro-abortion crowd really cares about is having abortion as an option.
Abortion always is an option, legal or not.
What concerns me is that so many have a personal biased agenda regarding abortion that they cannot truly represent, present or support all options. And when such biases exist, underlying and infringing messages get conveyed to sensitive individuals looking for much needed help.
"The opposite of a fact is falsehood, but the opposite of one profound truth may very well be another profound truth." ~ Niels Bohr
What concerns me is that so many have a personal biased agenda regarding abortion that they cannot truly represent, present or support all options. And when such biases exist, underlying and infringing messages get conveyed to sensitive individuals looking for much needed help.
It means that my concern is that those who are "there" for ones considering abortion unconsciously communicate their own biases to the person looking for support, rather than present clear options, minus personal bias. And also that those who have a personally biased view of abortion (for example that it is morally an okay choice) cannot accept that the person considering abortion may come from a different place, with values which state the exact opposite. I've seen such values minimized by biased individuals trying to present the "facts" when really they are presenting biased opinion and a personal morality. Those looking for support then find their own position being minimized and devalued, when they are already in a very vulnerable, precarious position.
"The opposite of a fact is falsehood, but the opposite of one profound truth may very well be another profound truth." ~ Niels Bohr
Yes, they care about options and choices. You can't say that about anti-freedom crowd. They want to impose their will on the rest of society.
They believe they care about options and choices, until their own personal biases block them from truly accepting all options and choices. I see this all the time. They unconsciously shut down options by devaluing and minimizing them.
"The opposite of a fact is falsehood, but the opposite of one profound truth may very well be another profound truth." ~ Niels Bohr
It means that my concern is that those who are "there" for ones considering abortion unconsciously communicate their own biases to the person looking for support, rather than present clear options, minus personal bias. And also that those who have a personally biased view of abortion (for example that it is morally an okay choice) cannot accept that the person considering abortion may come from a different place, with values which state the exact opposite. I've seen such values minimized by biased individuals trying to present the "facts" when really they are presenting biased opinion and a personal morality. Those looking for support then find their own position being minimized and devalued, when they are already in a very vulnerable, precarious position.
so which values and options are being minimized?
also, you think this doesn't happen on the other side? hell, i'll take an unconscious bias coming through rather than the browbeating and outright knowing emotional manipulation used by the pro-life crowd. the stuff they do to women who walk into their clinics is sick and i can't imagine any pro-choice bias that could come close to it.
They believe they care about options and choices, until their own personal biases block them from truly accepting all options and choices. I see this all the time. They unconsciously shut down options by devaluing and minimizing them.
I can't speak for everyone. I don't think anyone can speak for a group so diverse, not even you, Angelica. You have no idea what they believe, because they are a million and more people.
I can only speak for myself. I believe abortion should be legal. I'm not an advocate of abortion. I'm against it in almost all cases. I think the option should be there. I hold this stance for several reasons, one of those reasons is that I believe people should have the choice.
Of course I have there's bias in my view, there's bias in your view and there's bias in everyone's view.
All we can do, I think, is provide all the information and leave the choices to the people. How can we do that when you outlaw one of those choices?
There is a lot of spewing propaganda and anecdotes on both sides of this issue. In my opinion, more of it comes from the pro-abortion side of things.
I don't understand how people can call medical/scientific knowledge propaganda or just dismiss it when it doesn't suit them. If I need to know about abortion, or about the unborn baby growing inside me, I will ask a doctor - not any random kook with a website.
I don't see anti-abortion people getting their own prenatal care from these sources. Why do they then think they're reasonable sources from which to get information if the pregnancy is to be aborted?
Why do you need data? Isn't it common sense that if the consequences of an action are going to be greater, that less people will participate?
Since murder and theft are going to occur whether they are legal or not, should we make them legal too?
How many TV stars would sign up for "Circus of the Stars" if there wasn't a safety net under the trapeze?
Something seeming like common sense to you is hardly grounds for legal change. This is why we have research studies and data. I'd like to see some that back up your claim that forcing women to carry unwanted pregnancies to term will decrease unintended pregnancy.
Outlawing abortion doesn't have a significant impact on incidence of abortion, so obviously it doesn't have a significant impact on unintended pregnancy either.
So focus on something that you can make light of rather than address what I'm really saying - that it's odd to say that abortions are easier to come by than other forms of birth control.
I don't think anyone has ever said it's easier to get an abortion than to get birth control.
YAY!
ooooooooo..i want to go out and purposely have unprotected sex....get pregnant so i can have an abortion! it Is so much FUN! i LOVE getting abortions...making such decisions without a care in the world...and i like to do it ofen...so that YAY! i can have an abortion again and again! they are the BEST!
WHAT?! You're crazy! I don't want to have an abortion! Those things hurt - and cause breast cancer and psychological trauma. :eek:
What I want to do is make everyone else have an abortion! Damn those women and their choices! Fuck choice! Childbirth is not an option - they MUST ALL HAVE ABORTIONS!!
What concerns me is that so many have a personal biased agenda regarding abortion that they cannot truly represent, present or support all options. And when such biases exist, underlying and infringing messages get conveyed to sensitive individuals looking for much needed help.
You seriously think people actually misrepresent childbirth options so as to convince pregnant women to have abortions? Seriously - where do you get this stuff from? And who are these people? And how do you know?
It means that my concern is that those who are "there" for ones considering abortion unconsciously communicate their own biases to the person looking for support, rather than present clear options, minus personal bias. And also that those who have a personally biased view of abortion (for example that it is morally an okay choice) cannot accept that the person considering abortion may come from a different place, with values which state the exact opposite. I've seen such values minimized by biased individuals trying to present the "facts" when really they are presenting biased opinion and a personal morality. Those looking for support then find their own position being minimized and devalued, when they are already in a very vulnerable, precarious position.
And where does this expertise of yours in pregnancy options counseling/counselors come from?
They believe they care about options and choices, until their own personal biases block them from truly accepting all options and choices. I see this all the time. They unconsciously shut down options by devaluing and minimizing them.
You see this all the time? Really? Because you frequently go to the doctor's for counseling about your unwanted pregnancies?
I don't understand what so-called biases you're talking about. You imply that there are some people who want to convince women to have abortions just as there are some who want to convince them to not have abortions. I have NEVER met an options counselor (or even a person of any occupation) who wants to convince women to have abortions.
also, you think this doesn't happen on the other side? hell, i'll take an unconscious bias coming through rather than the browbeating and outright knowing emotional manipulation used by the pro-life crowd. the stuff they do to women who walk into their clinics is sick and i can't imagine any pro-choice bias that could come close to it.
No bias, minimization or slanted influence can be effectively justified.
"The opposite of a fact is falsehood, but the opposite of one profound truth may very well be another profound truth." ~ Niels Bohr
You seriously think people actually misrepresent childbirth options so as to convince pregnant women to have abortions? Seriously - where do you get this stuff from? And who are these people? And how do you know?
People represent their unconscious bias all the time, whether it's acknowledged or not.
"The opposite of a fact is falsehood, but the opposite of one profound truth may very well be another profound truth." ~ Niels Bohr
I can't speak for everyone. I don't think anyone can speak for a group so diverse, not even you, Angelica. You have no idea what they believe, because they are a million and more people.
I can only speak for myself. I believe abortion should be legal. I'm not an advocate of abortion. I'm against it in almost all cases. I think the option should be there. I hold this stance for several reasons, one of those reasons is that I believe people should have the choice.
Of course I have there's bias in my view, there's bias in your view and there's bias in everyone's view.
All we can do, I think, is provide all the information and leave the choices to the people. How can we do that when you outlaw one of those choices?
The only group I speak to is those who do what I refer to - act on and influence the impressionable, based on personal slanted bias. Those who do not are not included.
"The opposite of a fact is falsehood, but the opposite of one profound truth may very well be another profound truth." ~ Niels Bohr
You seriously think people actually misrepresent childbirth options so as to convince pregnant women to have abortions? Seriously - where do you get this stuff from? And who are these people? And how do you know?
People represent their unconscious bias all the time, whether it's acknowledged or not.
You didn't answer my questions, so I'll ask again:
From where do you get this stuff? Who are these people? How do you know?
I persist because I think it's one thing to say people in general - like on a message board - are biased in support of abortion (which I don't think is true); but I think it's downright libelous & disrespectful to suggest that hard-working, caring, medical professionals are out there preying on distraught women so as to propagate a pro-abortion agenda rather than being objective and supportive.
You didn't answer my questions, so I'll ask again:
From where do you get this stuff? Who are these people? How do you know?
I persist because I think it's one thing to say people in general - like on a message board - are biased in support of abortion (which I don't think is true); but I think it's downright libelous & disrespectful to suggest that hard-working, caring, medical professionals are out there preying on distraught women so as to propagate a pro-abortion agenda rather than being objective and supportive.
I am talking about those who influence on this subject, period. We're all interconnected and do so all the time. I at no time specified that I refer to medical professionals specifically. As usual, you have misconstrued my points, and take your fallacious view to represent my actual view.
The truth exists on its own whether it is being perceived through the smokescreen of our inner filters or not. Medical professionals are responsible for biased influence when they act in a way that is biased and influential. Counsellors or any other representives, as well. And also family, friends, other caregivers or even those on message boards. This means in moment to moment, from action/influence to action/influence. It's self-evident.
"The opposite of a fact is falsehood, but the opposite of one profound truth may very well be another profound truth." ~ Niels Bohr
I am talking about those who influence on this subject, period. We're all interconnected and do so all the time. I at no time specified that I refer to medical professionals specifically. As usual, you have misconstrued my points, and take your fallacious view to represent my actual view.
The truth exists on its own whether it is being perceived through the smokescreen of our inner filters or not. Medical professionals are responsible for biased influence when they act in a way that is biased and influential. Counsellors or any other representives, as well. And also family, friends, other caregivers or even those on message boards. This means in moment to moment, from action/influence to action/influence. It's self-evident.
got any real world examples for us, instead of textbook gibberish? which values and options are being minimized and how? how do you know about it, aside from your assumption that everyone automatically (except for you, of course) is biased and manipulative in their actions and speech on this issue?
got any real world examples for us, instead of textbook gibberish? which values and options are being minimized and how? how do you know about it, aside from your assumption that everyone automatically (except for you, of course) is biased and manipulative in their actions and speech on this issue?
bias and manipulation is shown by bias and manipulation. again, it's self evident.
It's interesting to me that people might find this concept unfathomable. Why would someone challenge what is normal and part of who we are in our evolution at this time?
When we perpetuate the unjustifiable, we create negative consequences to learn by. The problem comes in when people must put blinders on in order to protect their egos.
"The opposite of a fact is falsehood, but the opposite of one profound truth may very well be another profound truth." ~ Niels Bohr
but I think it's downright libelous & disrespectful to suggest that hard-working, caring, medical professionals are out there preying on distraught women so as to propagate a pro-abortion agenda rather than being objective and supportive.
We could go back and forth on this:
Medical "professionals" that provide abortions are the ambulance chasers of the medical field. Most doctors choose to abide by the hippocratic oath and give life, while abortionists choose to take life.
Abortionists don't necessarily need to prey on women, but they do locate themselves in the inner-city where the business of abortion thrives. They have a regular supply and demand. They supply abortions, and distraught women demand them. Plenty of those women, if they had the opportunity, would carry their babies to term. If you think for a moment that the abortionist wants them to do that, you're sorely mistaken. They have a conflict of interest - they benefit financially when abortions are in demand. They are in the business of baby killing.
If there were less supply, women might choose abortion less. I thought pro-choicers always wanted less abortion, but when conservatives try to make that happen, pro-choicers go out of their way to make abortion more accessible.
Obama is a good example. He voted against a bill that would've made it illegal to murder a born child because he was concerned that it would provide a loophole around Roe v. Wade. That's just murder, plain and simple.
All I know is that to see, and not to speak, would be the great betrayal.
-Enoch Powell
Medical "professionals" that provide abortions are the ambulance chasers of the medical field. Most doctors choose to abide by the hippocratic oath and give life, while abortionists choose to take life.
Abortionists don't necessarily need to prey on women, but they do locate themselves in the inner-city where the business of abortion thrives. They have a regular supply and demand. They supply abortions, and distraught women demand them. Plenty of those women, if they had the opportunity, would carry their babies to term. If you think for a moment that the abortionist wants them to do that, you're sorely mistaken. They have a conflict of interest - they benefit financially when abortions are in demand. They are in the business of baby killing.
Obviously you don't know (m)any abortion providers. Most/many of them deliver many, many more babies than they abort. And the fee for prenatal care & delivery is considerably higher than the fee for abortion - not to mention the lifetime of revenue generated by a kid who is born. So it would actually be MUCH more financially beneficial for these doctors to be biased in support of childbirth, not abortion.
I know... all those conservatives trying to help out with the problem of unwanted pregnancies...
Always pushing for sex education, free condoms, and greater funding to school and public health clinics to help them with reproductive education.
And we liberals... we are all like...
"Why the free condoms??? You conservatives are fucking everything up with your accessible birth control and reproductive education programs!!!
Well at least the conservatives don't objectify women or sleep around. I mean, you never see them on message board threads talking about all the women they should bang while they're in college. They always keep their dicks in their pants and their legs shut. :rolleyes:
Comments
What concerns me is that so many have a personal biased agenda regarding abortion that they cannot truly represent, present or support all options. And when such biases exist, underlying and infringing messages get conveyed to sensitive individuals looking for much needed help.
http://www.myspace.com/illuminatta
Rhinocerous Surprise '08!!!
i have no idea what this means.
Yes, they care about options and choices. You can't say that about anti-freedom crowd. They want to impose their will on the rest of society.
naděje umírá poslední
http://www.myspace.com/illuminatta
Rhinocerous Surprise '08!!!
http://www.myspace.com/illuminatta
Rhinocerous Surprise '08!!!
so which values and options are being minimized?
also, you think this doesn't happen on the other side? hell, i'll take an unconscious bias coming through rather than the browbeating and outright knowing emotional manipulation used by the pro-life crowd. the stuff they do to women who walk into their clinics is sick and i can't imagine any pro-choice bias that could come close to it.
I can't speak for everyone. I don't think anyone can speak for a group so diverse, not even you, Angelica. You have no idea what they believe, because they are a million and more people.
I can only speak for myself. I believe abortion should be legal. I'm not an advocate of abortion. I'm against it in almost all cases. I think the option should be there. I hold this stance for several reasons, one of those reasons is that I believe people should have the choice.
Of course I have there's bias in my view, there's bias in your view and there's bias in everyone's view.
All we can do, I think, is provide all the information and leave the choices to the people. How can we do that when you outlaw one of those choices?
naděje umírá poslední
I don't understand how people can call medical/scientific knowledge propaganda or just dismiss it when it doesn't suit them. If I need to know about abortion, or about the unborn baby growing inside me, I will ask a doctor - not any random kook with a website.
I don't see anti-abortion people getting their own prenatal care from these sources. Why do they then think they're reasonable sources from which to get information if the pregnancy is to be aborted?
Something seeming like common sense to you is hardly grounds for legal change. This is why we have research studies and data. I'd like to see some that back up your claim that forcing women to carry unwanted pregnancies to term will decrease unintended pregnancy.
Outlawing abortion doesn't have a significant impact on incidence of abortion, so obviously it doesn't have a significant impact on unintended pregnancy either.
I don't think anyone has ever said it's easier to get an abortion than to get birth control.
WHAT?! You're crazy! I don't want to have an abortion! Those things hurt - and cause breast cancer and psychological trauma. :eek:
What I want to do is make everyone else have an abortion! Damn those women and their choices! Fuck choice! Childbirth is not an option - they MUST ALL HAVE ABORTIONS!!
:rolleyes:
You seriously think people actually misrepresent childbirth options so as to convince pregnant women to have abortions? Seriously - where do you get this stuff from? And who are these people? And how do you know?
And where does this expertise of yours in pregnancy options counseling/counselors come from?
You see this all the time? Really? Because you frequently go to the doctor's for counseling about your unwanted pregnancies?
I don't understand what so-called biases you're talking about. You imply that there are some people who want to convince women to have abortions just as there are some who want to convince them to not have abortions. I have NEVER met an options counselor (or even a person of any occupation) who wants to convince women to have abortions.
http://www.myspace.com/illuminatta
Rhinocerous Surprise '08!!!
http://www.myspace.com/illuminatta
Rhinocerous Surprise '08!!!
http://www.myspace.com/illuminatta
Rhinocerous Surprise '08!!!
You didn't answer my questions, so I'll ask again:
From where do you get this stuff? Who are these people? How do you know?
I persist because I think it's one thing to say people in general - like on a message board - are biased in support of abortion (which I don't think is true); but I think it's downright libelous & disrespectful to suggest that hard-working, caring, medical professionals are out there preying on distraught women so as to propagate a pro-abortion agenda rather than being objective and supportive.
The truth exists on its own whether it is being perceived through the smokescreen of our inner filters or not. Medical professionals are responsible for biased influence when they act in a way that is biased and influential. Counsellors or any other representives, as well. And also family, friends, other caregivers or even those on message boards. This means in moment to moment, from action/influence to action/influence. It's self-evident.
http://www.myspace.com/illuminatta
Rhinocerous Surprise '08!!!
got any real world examples for us, instead of textbook gibberish? which values and options are being minimized and how? how do you know about it, aside from your assumption that everyone automatically (except for you, of course) is biased and manipulative in their actions and speech on this issue?
It's interesting to me that people might find this concept unfathomable. Why would someone challenge what is normal and part of who we are in our evolution at this time?
When we perpetuate the unjustifiable, we create negative consequences to learn by. The problem comes in when people must put blinders on in order to protect their egos.
http://www.myspace.com/illuminatta
Rhinocerous Surprise '08!!!
Thanks for clearing that up! :rolleyes:
http://www.myspace.com/illuminatta
Rhinocerous Surprise '08!!!
We could go back and forth on this:
Medical "professionals" that provide abortions are the ambulance chasers of the medical field. Most doctors choose to abide by the hippocratic oath and give life, while abortionists choose to take life.
Abortionists don't necessarily need to prey on women, but they do locate themselves in the inner-city where the business of abortion thrives. They have a regular supply and demand. They supply abortions, and distraught women demand them. Plenty of those women, if they had the opportunity, would carry their babies to term. If you think for a moment that the abortionist wants them to do that, you're sorely mistaken. They have a conflict of interest - they benefit financially when abortions are in demand. They are in the business of baby killing.
If there were less supply, women might choose abortion less. I thought pro-choicers always wanted less abortion, but when conservatives try to make that happen, pro-choicers go out of their way to make abortion more accessible.
Obama is a good example. He voted against a bill that would've made it illegal to murder a born child because he was concerned that it would provide a loophole around Roe v. Wade. That's just murder, plain and simple.
-Enoch Powell
I know... all those conservatives trying to help out with the problem of unwanted pregnancies...
Always pushing for sex education, free condoms, and greater funding to school and public health clinics to help them with reproductive education.
And we liberals... we are all like...
"Why the free condoms??? You conservatives are fucking everything up with your accessible birth control and reproductive education programs!!!
Obviously you don't know (m)any abortion providers. Most/many of them deliver many, many more babies than they abort. And the fee for prenatal care & delivery is considerably higher than the fee for abortion - not to mention the lifetime of revenue generated by a kid who is born. So it would actually be MUCH more financially beneficial for these doctors to be biased in support of childbirth, not abortion.
Well at least the conservatives don't objectify women or sleep around. I mean, you never see them on message board threads talking about all the women they should bang while they're in college. They always keep their dicks in their pants and their legs shut. :rolleyes:
All those "solutions" are crap. We're talking about reducing abortion, not conception.
-Enoch Powell
Haha! That's the quote of the day! Of course - reducing conception is a horrible method of reducing abortion.