I thought I'd start a thread on Abortion

ladygooddiva

Collin wrote:

It's also someone else's potential baby. I hope all the ladies here who talk about "their choice" would at least consult and discuss this decision with their partner.

in some case yes in the other no

Collin

ladygooddiva wrote:

in some case yes in the other no

In what situation would you not discuss it with your partner?

angelica

catch22 wrote:

for someone who claims they do not need to justify herself to us, you sure do seem to feel compelled to respond to every criticism of your style and evasiveness and make excuses for it.

Allow me to clarify:

I love to speak to my purposes! I do so all the time! What I "claim" to not need to do, is speak to other people's purposes. This means when someone asks for clarification, and I don't see the purpose in it...I don't speak to that person's purpose! Still...as always, I enjoy sharing my view on this board!

catch22

angelica wrote:

It's understandable that when I make a direct statement, and when people read into that with assumptions about what I mean, rather than take my words for what they say, people will hear what their own filters are seeing and will not understand the value of a direct statement.

I make the assertions I do. Therefore, you can rest assured when I make an assertion, that I'm making that assertion!! At the same time, I often can and do see 20 other views as well. So when people want to limit what I say because they can't see the validity of understanding all views, I don't own that. But, again, when I assert something, that is the ONE thing I stand behind 100%. I don't stand behind what I don't say. I don't stand behind what people imagine I am saying. I stand behind what I say, 100%.

Not only do I assert my position, but I'm very well willing to discuss it in situations where people show they are open to communicate. When people are judging and assuming, and when faced with feedback that they are mishearing and misunderstanding, and they continue on, I'm seeing there is little room for productive communication. Therefore, I'm happy to merely assert my opinion. Until people come along and represent they are open to respectful discussion.

the point is, no one here is entirely sure what you've asserted or why. how many posts in this thread have been from people who are confused as to what you are trying to say? and your claim is that we're simply not developed enough to get it and you're being perfectly clear? can you turn YOUR biases off long enough to maybe just CONSIDER the possibility that you are not communicating very clearly?

i have represented by willingness to consider your position, i simply cannot think of anything those on the pro-choice side do to pressure people into abortion. which is why i asked led you to believe this is the case. i'm curious. and you might be surprised just how open i can be to considering your views, if i could ever figure out what they are and why they exist. but i think im beating my head against a brick wall here.

ladygooddiva

Collin wrote:

In what situation would you not discuss it with your partner?

when i don t have one
when he doesn t not want the baby
n i am sure he can not be the father
when i was raped ...
just for the record i was never in any of this situtaion
ok when i was pregnant with my baby girl he was for it
but when he would have said no way i would let growp this wonderful girl at my own

angelica

catch22 wrote:

the point is, no one here is entirely sure what you've asserted or why.

catch22 wrote:

angelica wrote:

My guess is that everyone in the thread understands the assertion that upon conception, when this new being is formed, and has it's own DNA, it becomes a different entity - one all it's own - individual from it's mother and father. Whether people disagree with it or not.

indeed we do.

how many posts in this thread have been from people who are confused as to what you are trying to say? and your claim is that we're simply not developed enough to get it and you're being perfectly clear? can you turn YOUR biases off long enough to maybe just CONSIDER the possibility that you are not communicating very clearly?

i have represented by willingness to consider your position, i simply cannot think of anything those on the pro-choice side do to pressure people into abortion. which is why i asked led you to believe this is the case. i'm curious. and you might be surprised just how open i can be to considering your views, if i could ever figure out what they are and why they exist. but i think im beating my head against a brick wall here.

....

Collin

ladygooddiva wrote:

when i don t have one
when he doesn t not want the baby
n i am sure he can not be the father
when i was raped ...

Well, you can't discuss it with your partner if you don't have one.
When you know he doesn't want it, I assume you already discussed it, how else would you know. And I have never heard a woman call her rapist her partner.

edit:

just for the record i was never in any of this situtaion
ok when i was pregnant with my baby girl he was for it
but when he would have said no way i would let growp this wonderful girl at my own

I don't think the partner should ever get to force a woman to have an abortion.

catch22

angelica wrote:

Allow me to clarify:

I love to speak to my purposes! I do so all the time! What I "claim" to not need to do, is speak to other people's purposes. This means when someone asks for clarification, and I don't see the purpose in it...I don't speak to that person's purpose! Still...as always, I enjoy sharing my view on this board!

that might explain a lot. basically what you are saying here is that you have no interest in dialogue or debate. you don't want to respond to anyone else's views or explain your own so that others might understand them. you criticize us for passing judgment on you, when you say right here that once you judge someone else's "purpose" as unworthy (and i would love to know how you do that, because i've never been so hot at looking into the minds of others and judging their motives) you will not discuss anything with them.

what you want is to lecture like a professor without ever having to respond to challenges to your credibility or authority. you are the embodiment of my name: you can see all views, but you have your own. but if we disagree with or question yours, it clearly reveals our innate bias and close-mindedness which renders us instantly wrong. yossarian would be impressed. of course, it is easy to do this when you believe that you are part of some rare 1% of the population with exceptional thinking.

there is huge irony here. you don't feel compelled to respond to other people's points or questions, so instead you make dozens or posts expounding on how you don't need to do so.

Kat

Thread derailed.

Topic is Abortion.

Thanks!

Admin

ladygooddiva

sorry no offence but in what kind of world are you living
many women are victims even in their marriaged or partnerships
and many women where forced aportion
and so many have to get the childs even they do nt want to...

angelica

catch22 wrote:

that might explain a lot. basically what you are saying here is that you have no interest in dialogue or debate. you don't want to respond to anyone else's views or explain your own so that others might understand them. you criticize us for passing judgment on you, when you say right here that once you judge someone else's "purpose" as unworthy (and i would love to know how you do that, because i've never been so hot at looking into the minds of others and judging their motives) you will not discuss anything with them.

what you want is to lecture like a professor without ever having to respond to challenges to your credibility or authority. you are the embodiment of my name: you can see all views, but you have your own. but if we disagree with or question yours, it clearly reveals our innate bias and close-mindedness which renders us instantly wrong. yossarian would be impressed. of course, it is easy to do this when you believe that you are part of some rare 1% of the population with exceptional thinking.

there is huge irony here. you don't feel compelled to respond to other people's points or questions, so instead you make dozens or posts expounding on how you don't need to do so.

I have expressed clearly that I'm always happy to engage in dialogue on the issues that interest me. If people are unwilling to do so without conflict, they are more than welcome to do so. I'm not willing to join. I'm quite able to say my piece and move on beyond the conflict.

there is a big difference between not having a personal interest in someone else's position, and with deeming it unworthy.

your view shows your view. in my view, I don't challenge anyone's assertion. I accept them all. Even when I don't particularly agree, all views stand loudly and clearly for me. I know someday I may come to more clearly understand that perspective, so I embrace it pro-actively.

It's when people cannot see the validity of my own view that I speak to it. That's why I speak to it. It's very common today that the linear mind cannot see outside itself and comprehend what is beyond. The majority view is like this. I accept this 100%. I'm in no way responsible for changing it. I wouldn't presume to try!! And still, I continue to speak to my own view! In-joy!

decides2dream

66 posts, for one sentence?


My guess is that everyone in the thread understands the assertion that upon conception, when this new being is formed, and has it's own DNA, it becomes a different entity - one all it's own - individual from it's mother and father. Whether people disagree with it or not.

indeed we do.



indeed...we DO!


however, that is not the topic...the topic is abortion...and actually about conservatives and how to NOT have abortion be 'the' deciding factor in the voter's booth, etc. so really....it is a question of your thoughts and views of abortion. perhaps illuminating the 'whys' of it to be sure.....but bottomline, your support, pov for legislation of abortion.....access for women, or denial.


first post:

Abuskedti wrote:

we haven't talked much about abortion. This is the toughest issue I have ever pondered. In the end, I find myself being pro-choice even though by all counts abortion is bad and should be stopped. Yet, circumstances today in America seem to be such that the people need not to have this type of thing legislated.

Debate on such a tough issue is rendered impossible because of politics. Because of the misrepresentation of both sides. I'd like to start with one of the conservative sides.

Can we just talk about one thing for now?

The Conservatives use Pro-Life as their platform and the single greatest vote producer. They vow basically to appoint supreme court justices that will overturn Roe v Wade.

These are the same people that preach that they don't want these judges to "legislate from the bench". Yet that are going to pervert the Supreme Court by proudly proclaiming on the comapaign trail that they will select judges based on their desire to overturn one particular law.

Don't they owe respect to the constitution and our legal process? This is currently the law of the land. There are many reasons this is the law of the land. There is a process to challange laws.

This is one simple contradiction in a long list rendering our country incapable of even addressing something.

btw - i 100% FULLY agree zygote, blastocyst, embryo......IS a distinct entity, ALWAYS. what i DISagree on is it being human. it has the possibility to be a human....if allowed to grow within the uterus of the mother, to at least 30 weeks of age. however, it is NOT a human. just like a catapillar is NOT a butterfly...only has the possibility of becoming one given the proper circumstances.

washedinblack91

angelica wrote:

My guess is that everyone in the thread understands the assertion that upon conception, when this new being is formed, and has it's own DNA, it becomes a different entity - one all it's own - individual from it's mother and father. Whether people disagree with it or not.

it has nothing to do with whether i agree with your points or not, or whether i understand the point you're making, it has to do with whether you present them clearly or not. sometimes you use big words that have no purpose and just make things more complicated to understand. i dunno if that's what everyone else has trouble with, but that's what i have trouble with. and NO it has nothing to do with my vocabulary. my brother is the same way, he uses "big" words to sound smart but he ends up going nowhere. not saying you're trying to sound smart on purpose, but some people do have problems like that and they don't even know it

angelica

washedinblack91 wrote:

it has nothing to do with whether i agree with your points or not, or whether i understand the point you're making, it has to do with whether you present them clearly or not. sometimes you use big words that have no purpose and just make things more complicated to understand. i dunno if that's what everyone else has trouble with, but that's what i have trouble with. and NO it has nothing to do with my vocabulary. my brother is the same way, he uses "big" words to sound smart but he ends up going nowhere. not saying you're trying to sound smart on purpose, but some people do have problems like that and they don't even know it

the topic is abortion...not your personal issues with my style...

ladygooddiva

if my child is really disabled /handycapt i would abort it ,if i knew
it sounds hart i know and some will hate me for saying so
but it is my choice right
but if i don t know and it is so i would try the best for her his living

decides2dream

Collin wrote:

But, I don't think an embryo is human life. I'm still against abortion, though. Yet I'm pro-choice.

LOVE this post...and the sentiments behind it.




collin, i would love if you would explain this position, b/c i do not want to assume or second-guess your 'whys'....

i DO think, more than likely that you and others who hold that same position do so b/c you and they can differentiate between what YOU believe in, and the RIGHTS of others to make that choice for themself. i highly, highly respect such a position.


me, i would LOVE to see the absolute NON-neccessity of abortion. i would like to see education, access and affordability of all BC methods and social stigmas against such disappear. i think these factors alone would wor wonders to reduce, and almost obliterate abortion. and even the very few abortions that may take place would occur SO early on b/c every girl/woman will know her options and make her decisions, free from the fear of social stigma. i know, i AM a dreamer.....



thing is, i was raised a catholic. seriously religious household. yet my father seemed of a similar mind to you collin. pro-choice. my mother, i just don't know really. i AM 100% pro-CHOICE..in the clearest, most concise version of CHOICE. however, i also have never been faced with an unwanted pregnancy and at this point have made certain i never will. who knows what 'choice' i would've made when faced with that reality? i cannot even truly guess. i think a LOT of it would have to do with my age and life circumstance at the time...but again, only second-guesses. point is really, for me, i just like to know that ALL options are open and available to a woman when/if she is ever faced with such.

i also would love to see it a non-issue...socially and legally...and then perhaps it would be a non-issue in the voters booth? am i dreaming again? could one seperate their personally held beliefs, whether from a moral view, religious, or just b/c they think the way they think.....from the rights of others to do and act from their own same source, even if it is different? i really would like to think so.


anyhoo....yes collin...i'd really love to read more of what you think b/c that is the exact kind of thinking that truly interests me on this subject. against abortion, yet pro-choice. evolved thinking to be sure...i think.

Touchofgray16

decides2dream wrote:

me, i would LOVE to see the absolute NON-neccessity of abortion. i would like to see education, access and affordability of all BC methods and social stigmas against such disappear. i think these factors alone would wor wonders to reduce, and almost obliterate abortion. and even the very few abortions that may take place would occur SO early on b/c every girl/woman will know her options and make her decisions, free from the fear of social stigma. i know, i AM a dreamer.....

Yes, but what a wonderful dream !

washedinblack91

angelica wrote:

the topic is abortion...not your personal issues with my style...

yes, see, but what i'm getting at is that no one can understand you when you write about abortion. i'm not trying to make fun of you in any way and im not the only one with problems with the way you write. i just think your position on abortion could be written a little clearer so that everyone can understand. clearly i'm not the only ones with problems understanding what you're saying because i'm not the first to ask what you're talking about. you have a tendency to say a lot without saying anything, and when you write like that the people reading your posts will automatically make whatever point you were trying to make moot since it's so difficult to see any point.



anyway... just for the sake of not being "on topic", i'll add that while i don't think i could ever get one, i want to have the right to the option of abortion. i think that if women want an abortion, she will have one whether it's legal or not, but if the time comes when she can't legally get one, her methods would have to be abort it herself. that could either be the clothes hanger method (which i dont think anyone on this board wants anyone doing) or trying to destroy it by other means (smoking/drinking a lot etc). i know this one girl who couldn't get an abortion for whatever reason and stabbed herself repeatedly in the stomach to kill it. instead of killing it, she almost died and now has to take care of a mentally/physically handicapped baby. if anything, keeping abortion legal will deter back alley abortions and keep women safe. i feel that a baby is a parasite, meaning it gets all its nutrients from the mother until it's born. like a parasite. most abortions are done so early in the pregnancy that it isn't anything! it's basically a blood clot. it's the size of an m&m (if that) and isn't even aware of what the hell is going on, so why would that be a bad thing? and to equate an abortion to the murder of a disabled person is grossly outrageous! one of the two isn't formed, has no feeling, has no life, and isn't aware of anything, whereas a disabled person, even though he/she is disabled, HAS a life, HAS feelings, HAS attachments, and other people have attachments to that person! someone on here said it best, if there are spontaneous abortions (miscarriages), why can't we manipulate abortions? we already manipulate chickens to grow twice as big, we extend life until people turn into dust, so why can't we manipulate things that actually occur naturally? also, hasn't anyone ever wondered how the decision to deal with Roe V Wade is mostly dealt with by men (every president has been a man) and the wealthy? (im betting everyone in the supreme court has the funds to fly their loved ones to wherever they need to go to get abortions if it becomes illegal) i dont think anyone who is deciding on this will ever have to be faced with the same hard decision every women considering abortion will have to go through. certainly the men never have to. NO man has to ever go through the woman is going through when considering abortion, and no, partners don't count because they will never ever become pregnant and will never know what women go through. listen, if you don't want an abortion, don't get one. just don't take that option away from us. oh, and pro-abortion does NOT equal pro-choice. i know my friend would never, EVER ever ever ever get an abortion because of her personal stance on the subject and because of her religion and blah blah blah, but she at least understands that other people have a different point of view. that makes her pro-choice because she realizes although abortion is not for her, it's an option for other people. however, it does NOT make her pro-abortion.

as for it being part of the conservative, republican, whatever you wanna call it political platform, i think those voting republican are going to be mostly christian with the thinking that they NEED to overturn Roe V Wade. some of the hardest years of my life was being an open minded atheist living with my christian fundamentalist grandparents. and you bet your ass all the candidate has to say is NO MORE ABORTIONS! and they'll gladly and proudly vote for him because it means so much to them (god only knows why!).

and for the record i'm a virgin and i've never been faced with the decision to expel a parasitic ball of cells. by the way, it's exactly the right word to describe it. a parasite. they gain nourishment from the host and dont give anything back, and yes, like all parasites, the host may reject it. why do you think there ARE miscarriages? one reason is because of anomalies in the chromosomes and another reason is because the body rejects the baby. it DOES see it as a foreign substance sometimes. for instance if the mother has type o negative (ha!) blood, and your baby has type o positive, that means the mother does not have the RhD antigen but the baby does. what does this mean? the body sees it as a foreign object and goes "what the fuck is this!? the mother doesnt have that antigen! LETS GET IT!" and a miscarriage is born (haha )

and dont worry ladygoodiva, i agree. if my baby happens to have an anomaly that would make life for it hell, yes i would abort it. and no, it doesn't mean i don't love it, it means that i love it so much i don't want it's life to be hell just by living! what kind of selfish person goes "oh my baby is going to be physically and mentally disabled to the point it can't even eat by itself and needs constant care and attention. but to hell with it, im going to love it anyway and care for it!" thats not loving it if you purposely bring it into the world, KNOWING it's going to be fucked up and live a horrible life, KNOWING your family will have a hard time with that baby living. it's probably THE most selfish thing i could think of. all you're doing is making life miserable for you for constantly having to worry about it and taking care of it, while making life miserable for all those involved, including the baby. if you want a child that much, adopt one. or, abort it and start all over.

decides2dream

Touchofgray16 wrote:

Yes, but what a wonderful dream !

*cue frank sinatra*
edit - damn, just realized...that's the impossible dream....hahahaha




it is, it really is.....and i have LOTs of em.
also good company i think....some may call me a dreamer, but i'm not the only one.....



i also would love to see more adress Abuskedti's initial question/premise, got kinda lost in the shuffle here. i don't have any 'answers'...but i'd love to read other thoughts on it as well.

timsinclair

decides2dream wrote:

except you are failing to see the BIG picture:
that embryos possess ALL these factors, and these other groups do not.

i have NEVER heard of a disabled person that had NO sensory perception..whatsoever. some senses may be diminished and/or non-existent...but not ALL..so again, sorry...wrong.

Firstly, it is not proven that a 7 week old has ZERO perception or pain, but that is not the point. A person who is in a coma is utterly dependant, and has no visible signs of having perception or feeling pain. We sometimes think it ok to turn off the machinery on which there life depends but ONLY if there is zero hope of them recovering. In the case of an unborn child, we KNOW that all three of these conditions are temporary.

Just as zero plus zero plus zero equals zero, dependance plus no perception plus no pain does not add up to a priciple that justifies abortion. The only argument used so far to justify abortion that works is Cate’s ‘parasite’ argument. I say it works because we all agree that in all other circumstances killing a parasite is morally permissible and should be encouraged. The problem is that a human embryo/fetus/baby is different from all other organisms that we call ‘parasites’ in that parasites are alien species that our bodies are not designed to carry. As Cate herself admits, a fetus is HUMAN, the womans body has been designed with marvelous apparatus to carry a human child, to nurture it, and to bring it forth into the world. If the fetus was truly a parasite, the argument would hold water, but it is not. Calling it a parasite is just a way of dehumanizing it in order to quiet our concience when we kill it.

Peace