I thought I'd start a thread on Abortion

decides2dream

Abuskedti wrote:

ahhh, no its not a blessing. God made it so thousands of baby turtles are born and only a couple survive. They aren't blessings until after they get out of diapers.

callen wrote:

Creating "human" life is not a blessing..its a curse...a curse for all of the other beautiful creatures God created. We're systematically stripping this planet bare and won't stop till we end up as did the folks on Easter Island. We're not special. Course we are part of evolution so the cycle will continue.

"We're a virus with shoes" Bill Hicks

why DO most humans think we as a species are so damn special? i mean, i realize it's in our own best interest to think we are the end-all, be-all....but honestly, why? even if we ARE the top of the food chain, etc...there is nothing else really to summarize us as the most special species above all else. beyond individual's beliefs in a god, which conveninetly tells us we are oh-so-special.....and while i may be agnostic, even when i was young and brought up to fully believe...i always thought ALL of us, meaning all creatures....were god's creatures.


there is soooo much DEATH....which is a natural part of LIFE. death that happens on it's own accord, as abusketdi's turtles above.....death for food, death from disease....death from killing....amongst almost ALL species, not just humans.


every spring i watch our many birdhouses fill with birds, then babies....and i watch numerous, numerous baby birds never make it: their eggs fall out and break, another animal eats the eggs, the birds are born and die....the birds are born and drown in our pond sometimes :(....or fall when flying, etc. lions kill off other lion's offspring so they can mate, mothers abandon their offspring often when there is not enough resources to care for them, if they find their offspring 'damaged'....leave it to die, etc, etc. death is a part of life, and so the cycle goes....and amongst all these creatures that inhabit this earth, imo, we are no more 'special' than any of em. and EVERY one of these creatures has their own, unique DNA just to them....and some die before even born, etc. specialness and uniqueness does not make life anymore worthy.

timsinclair

Abuskedti wrote:

You are right... Abortion is a bad thing. Nobody really denies that. We are delt some cards and we play them. We make choices. Far fewer people would die accidental deaths if we didn't have cars. there are always choices made. If you make abortion illegal, you not only stop the abortion, but you require the mother to carry and feed and care for the child, not for 9 months, but for about 18 years. There is no other requirement of anyone anywhere else that is not entered voluntarily.

One thing that Ed said a long time ago that has stood the test of time is 'living is the best revenge', problem is most unwanted human fetuses dont get the chance to prove it like we do. There is another option other than abortion, which we havn't discussed much, that I think is always the better option: Adoption. Adoption means facing up to consequences for our actions and carrying a baby for 9 months but many women find out that abortion has its consequences too. Many women suffer psychological trauma for many years after having an abortion but if they are willing to make the sacrifice of continuing with a pregnancy, they are doing something of great worth, giving someone life, and giving a childless couple a family. This was beutifully illustrated in the recent film 'Juno', if you havn't seen it, its a must.

timsinclair

decidedstodream wrote:

lions kill off other lion's offspring so they can mate, mothers abandon their offspring often when there is not enough resources to care for them, if they find their offspring 'damaged'....leave it to die, etc, etc. death is a part of life, and so the cycle goes....and amongst all these creatures that inhabit this earth, imo, we are no more 'special' than any of em.

Are you suggesting that since animals do this, its ok for us to do it too? If this were the case, we could feel free to kill any other human being, whatever age, and for whatever reason. Again, this is the kind of argument that justifies, not just abortion, but any kind of murder, particularly the worst forms of Nazi style eugenics in the name of 'improving the stock'. Perhaps you think rape is ok too since Bonobo's clearly practice it.

catefrances

timsinclair wrote:

One thing that Ed said a long time ago that has stood the test of time is 'living is the best revenge', problem is most unwanted human fetuses dont get the chance to prove it like we do. There is another option other than abortion, which we havn't discussed much, that I think is always the better option: Adoption. Adoption means facing up to consequences for our actions and carrying a baby for 9 months but many women find out that abortion has its consequences too. Many women suffer psychological trauma for many years after having an abortion but if they are willing to make the sacrifice of continuing with a pregnancy, they are doing something of great worth, giving someone life, and giving a childless couple a family. This was beutifully illustrated in the recent film 'Juno', if you havn't seen it, its a must.

yes ive seen it tim. juno is just a film. a good film i thought, but still just a film. sure it had a happy ending but it was a fictional story. juno had the total support of her parents and the childs father. it illustrates nothing but an ideal. an illusion for some and a delusion for many if you like.

timsinclair

catefrances wrote:

yes ive seen it tim. juno is just a film. a good film i thought, but still just a film. sure it had a happy ending but it was a fictional story. juno had the total support of her parents and the childs father. it illustrates nothing but an ideal. an illusion for some and a delusion for many if you like.

Hi cate.
Juno is just a film, but it illustrates a reality. Adoption works.
It didn't take much for Juno's concience to be awakened by a bit of truth about the reality of what was developing inside her. I think that if we could all see the developing human, hardly any of us would go through with abortion. the film also showed that carrying the baby was not easy, it was a big sacrifice, but one that always produces a happier ending for all.

Peace

catefrances

timsinclair wrote:

Hi cate.
Juno is just a film, but it illustrates a reality. Adoption works.
It didn't take much for Juno's concience to be awakened by a bit of truth about the reality of what was developing inside her. I think that if we could all see the developing human, hardly any of us would go through with abortion. the film also showed that carrying the baby was not easy, it was a big sacrifice, but one that always produces a happier ending for all.

Peace

we?? who's this we?? last time i checked only women could get pregnant.


and what was the sacrifice juno made by carrying her child to term?

timsinclair

catefrances wrote:

we?? who's this we?? last time i checked only women could get pregnant.

Of course it is the women who goes through the ordeal of birth or abortion, but the baby belongs equally to the father. Men suffer too if their offspring die, and should also have some choice in whether they are allowed to live.

and what was the sacrifice juno made by carrying her child to term?

Getting mocked by her peers, losing her figure, going through labour, having to part with the baby.

catefrances

timsinclair wrote:

Of course it is the women who goes through the ordeal of birth or abortion, but the baby belongs equally to the father. Men suffer too if their offspring die, and should also have some choice in whether they are allowed to live.

no one can force a woman to continue a pregnancy to term against her will. not even the father. sure he can express his opinion but ultimately it always comes down to the woman. the choice is hers and hers alone.

timsinclair wrote:

Getting mocked by her peers, losing her figure, going through labour, having to part with the baby.

aside from your last point none of that is actually a sacrifice. having gone through it several times, i personally never thought labour was a sacrifice. it was just something natural a woman goes through in order for her child to be born. being mocked by your peers is not a sacrifice. and as for losing her figure... as far as i could see the only place juno put any weight on was actually her babys growth. it was a hollywood 'weight gain'. shes stayed the same side aside from her abdomen. :rolleyes: anyhoo as i said previously it was just a film. no more, no less.

catefrances

oops double post

catefrances

triplepost.

decides2dream

timsinclair wrote:

Are you suggesting that since animals do this, its ok for us to do it too? If this were the case, we could feel free to kill any other human being, whatever age, and for whatever reason. Again, this is the kind of argument that justifies, not just abortion, but any kind of murder, particularly the worst forms of Nazi style eugenics in the name of 'improving the stock'. Perhaps you think rape is ok too since Bonobo's clearly practice it.

once again, i am not 'justifying' anything...i do not think abortions requres 'justificiation'...was simply making the point that when some make the point that abortion is unnatural, goes against nature...that really, it doesn't. if one can argue FOR pro-life with that stance..i can certainly argue pro-choice for the opposite stance. you keep tryin' though....



btw - as to adoption, i agree, it's a wonderful choice.....IF it is the choice of the mother. i support ALL choices. period.
and only b/c you brought him up, i honestly couldn't care less...but ed has always been a very vocal, pro-choice guy...and it has been plainly stated that an old-GF, pregnant with HIS child, had an abortion and he FULLY supported that choice. and now he happily has a daughter right now, with another on child on the way.......and so it goes, for many, many people who have chosen abortion at one point in time.

_

timsinclair wrote:

One thing that Ed said a long time ago that has stood the test of time is 'living is the best revenge', problem is most unwanted human fetuses dont get the chance to prove it like we do. There is another option other than abortion, which we havn't discussed much, that I think is always the better option: Adoption. Adoption means facing up to consequences for our actions and carrying a baby for 9 months but many women find out that abortion has its consequences too. Many women suffer psychological trauma for many years after having an abortion but if they are willing to make the sacrifice of continuing with a pregnancy, they are doing something of great worth, giving someone life, and giving a childless couple a family. This was beutifully illustrated in the recent film 'Juno', if you havn't seen it, its a must.

Adoption is great, and I'm thrilled that it's one of the 3 options that pregnant women have.

However, please keep in mind that adoption is not a good choice for everyone. For some women, it's the prenancy itself - not just the resulting child - that brings harm to them and their families.

Also, have you ever placed a child for adoption? People talk about it like it's such an easy thing to do. But most people really have no idea what it's like for a woman to carry a child to term and then place it for adoption - and yet they still say it's what people should do. (Of course, most people also have no idea what it's like for a woman to have an abortion and they still talk about that as if they know too.)

decides2dream

scb wrote:

Adoption is great, and I'm thrilled that it's one of the 3 options that pregnant women have.

However, please keep in mind that adoption is not a good choice for everyone. For some women, it's the prenancy itself - not just the resulting child - that brings harm to them and their families.

Also, have you ever placed a child for adoption? People talk about it like it's such an easy thing to do. But most people really have no idea what it's like for a woman to carry a child to term and then place it for adoption - and yet they still say it's what people should do. (Of course, most people also have no idea what it's like for a woman to have an abortion and they still talk about that as if they know too.)

i don't know what ANY of the choices 'feel like' for a woman, b/c even as a woman...i have never faced any of the 3 scenarios: having a child and keeping it, having a child and placing it up for adoption, getting pregnant and having abortion. thing is, i FULLY believe in a woman's RIGHT to CHOOSE the option that BEST suits HER. however, i also don't believe a human embryo to be more than human cells, and NOT a fully formed, thinking, FEELING human being...so i take no issue. it's ALL about CHOICE.

_

timsinclair wrote:

Hi cate.
Juno is just a film, but it illustrates a reality. Adoption works.

Yes, A reality. One (fictitious) person's reality - of the millions of pregnant women's millions of individual realities.

For Juno, adoption does work. That's great for Juno. I'm happy for her and for all the other people (fictitious or real) for whom adoption works. But you can't take her individual experience and apply it universally.

timsinclair wrote:

It didn't take much for Juno's concience to be awakened by a bit of truth about the reality of what was developing inside her. I think that if we could all see the developing human, hardly any of us would go through with abortion. the film also showed that carrying the baby was not easy, it was a big sacrifice, but one that always produces a happier ending for all.

Peace

As I've said in this thread before, I disagree:

scb wrote:

Also, although I see your point about people having less of a problem with "killing" they don't have to see, I actually think that if more people really saw abortions we as a society would have LESS of a problem with it because the distinction between an embryo and a fully human person would become more clear. (I can't help but wonder if the growing use of the abortion pill will have any impact on this at all, since women who use it - and their partners, if they want - actually see the results of the abortion.)

_

decides2dream wrote:

i don't know what ANY of the choices 'feel like' for a woman, b/c even as a woman...i have never faced any of the 3 scenarios: having a child and keeping it, having a child and placing it up for adoption, getting pregnant and having abortion. thing is, i FULLY believe in a woman's RIGHT to CHOOSE the option that BEST suits HER. however, i also don't believe a human embryo to be more than human cells, and NOT a fully formed, thinking, FEELING human being...so i take no issue. it's ALL about CHOICE.

Right - you don't know what it's like and you don't go around saying what women should and shouldn't do or what the better choice is for them. Even those who have faced and gone through with any/all of these options don't know what it's like for someone else to face the same choices. So I don't think they have room to judge either.

A funny/sad afterthought I had about adoption: If women who had abortions weren't around to demonize, I bet people would then turn on the women who place their children for adoption.

Of course, people also vilify women for having too many kids. And we are vilified by some for using contraception. And of course if you don't have kids you're not fulfilling your purpose as a woman. I think when it comes to their own reproductivity, sometimes women just can't win. Everyone else thinks we should do what they want us to do. :(

I guess that, while abortion itself hasn't been an "issue" forever, it is just one part of a larger controversy about women's reproductivity that's as old as the hills. This is the real problem, in my opinion.

decides2dream

scb wrote:

Right - you don't know what it's like and you don't go around saying what women should and shouldn't do or what the better choice is for them. Even those who have faced and gone through with any/all of these options don't know what it's like for someone else to face the same choices. So I don't think they have room to judge either.

A funny/sad afterthought I had about adoption: If women who had abortions weren't around to demonize, I bet people would then turn on the women who place their children for adoption.

Of course, people also vilify women for having too many kids. And we are vilified by some for using contraception. And of course if you don't have kids you're not fulfilling your purpose as a woman. I think when it comes to their own reproductivity, sometimes women just can't win. Everyone else thinks we should do what they want us to do. :(

I guess that, while abortion itself hasn't been an "issue" forever, it is just one part of a larger controversy about women's reproductivity that's as old as the hills. This is the real problem, in my opinion.

well stated, and i agree 100%.
damned if ya do...damned if ya don't.
that's for damn sure.




and even men who take the issue, and responsibility, in their own hands...sometimes called 'less of a man' for doing so. whereas, in reality, the opposite is true in my mind, anyway.

timsinclair

I dont think any of you are giving Juno the respect she deserves. Cate, Juno makes a big sacrifice because, if she had chosen abortion, she would not have had to go through any of the aspects of pregnancy I mentioned. I know she is a fictional character but she represents a lot of women who refuse to take the 'easy option' of abortion and sacrifice 9 months of their lives to doing something immensly courageous and worthwhile. Our modern society is too used to trying to avoid consequences, people Like Juno face up to the consequences of their actions and redeem them by doing something brave and selfless. It turns out that abortion is not a 'quick fix' after all since MANY women suffer the psychological consequences later, women who made the right choice, however, always know that, even if they never see their child again, they did all they could to give them life, a good life. regarding the fathers choice, I agree that he should not be able to force his will on the mother but what if he wants to keep the child and the mother wants to kill it, where is the justice for the father? let alone the child. Injustice begets injustice. The option to kill/terminate should not exist, it is barbaric and it causes nothing but suffering.

decides2dream

timsinclair wrote:

The option to kill/terminate should not exist, it is barbaric and it causes nothing but suffering.

in YOUR opinion.



there are probably millions of women who have had abortions....and of the lot of em, i would hazard to guess that it does NOT cause 'nothing but suffering'. an embryo cannot 'suffer' b/c it has no ability to think or feel pain, and for most women who choose abortion, they go on to live normal, happy, healthy content lives...and many go on to have children later on.



btw- i fully agree it IS admirable to give a child up for adoption. said as much earlier. i do NOT discount that option or underplay the giving nature of such, at all. however, for some girls/women...it's not their choice, and i respect their right to choose.

_

timsinclair wrote:

I dont think any of you are giving Juno the respect she deserves. Cate, Juno makes a big sacrifice because, if she had chosen abortion, she would not have had to go through any of the aspects of pregnancy I mentioned. I know she is a fictional character but she represents a lot of women who refuse to take the 'easy option' of abortion and sacrifice 9 months of their lives to doing something immensly courageous and worthwhile. Our modern society is too used to trying to avoid consequences, people Like Juno face up to the consequences of their actions and redeem them by doing something brave and selfless. It turns out that abortion is not a 'quick fix' after all since MANY women suffer the psychological consequences later, women who made the right choice, however, always know that, even if they never see their child again, they did all they could to give them life, a good life. regarding the fathers choice, I agree that he should not be able to force his will on the mother but what if he wants to keep the child and the mother wants to kill it, where is the justice for the father? let alone the child. Injustice begets injustice. The option to kill/terminate should not exist, it is barbaric and it causes nothing but suffering.

How do you know what women who choose adoption know & feel? How do you know what women who choose abortion know & feel? Why do you think Juno's situation is representative of the 84 million other women in the world each year who have to make a decision regarding their unintended pregnancies?

Regarding justice for the father, what are you suggesting be done about it? In an ideal world, neither fathers nor mothers would have their children aborted - or given up for adoption, or born - unless that's what they wanted. But we do not live in an ideal world and we must just do the best we can.

I'd like to know your position on justice for the fathers when the father wants to abort the child and the mother doesn't. What about justice for the fathers then? Or do they deserve justice only when they agree with what you think is best?

Regarding justice for the embryo, that implies that being born is necessarily what's best for them. If that's what you believe, can you justify that?

And abortion causes nothing but suffering? While I'm not exactly sure what suffering you're referring to, suffering oftentimes exists no matter what decision you make. Unintended/unwanted pregnancy puts a woman between a rock and a hard place. There is no ideal decision.

In the beginning of this conversation, you were trying to judge the situation using philosophy & logic, and I appreciated that. I see that you've since abandoned those methods and chosen to ignore many good points made by others. I would like to see you address those points.

If, however, you simply have a religious objection to abortion, why don't you just go ahead and say so and we can discuss what this is really about?

heartdesire

catefrances wrote:

there should never be any legislation that dictates what a woman should be allowed to do with her body that trepasses against her own free will. ALL persons should have the right of sovereignty over their own body.

Catefrances, you are a wise individual. I agree, fully and completely.