I thought I'd start a thread on Abortion

catefrances

angelica wrote:

I seek to appreciate where others are coming from always, in order to understand what is. And when I don't, I own that.

My own view is not either/or. It's based on myriad combinations given the myriad contexts.

I'm not going to spell it out, due to the climate of this thread. People seem intolerance of the holistic view, and seem to not understand beyond black/white, and therefore get argumentative with a difference approach. I'm just not interested in that.

and therein lies the difference between us angelica. my appreciation only goes so far. if what someone is saying is nonsensical and takes no stand then i dismiss them on whatever it is were discussing in that instance. my view is one of either/or in this particular discussion. its so simple when you get down to it. i dont understand why you have such trouble sharing you view. cant you substantiate your claim. not that you necessarily have to, which is great for you btw. basically what youre saying is you have an opinion but you wont share it with us cause were too mean. :rolleyes: you cant possibly hide behind the 'intolerant' climate of this thread. i mean no ones actually called anyone a babykiller yet. no one else seems to have a problem voicing their stance.

angelica

catefrances wrote:

and therein lies the difference between us angelica. my appreciation only goes so far. if what someone is saying is nonsensical and takes no stand then i dismiss them on whatever it is were discussing in that instance. my view is one of either/or in this particular discussion. its so simple when you get down to it. i dont understand why you have such trouble sharing you view. cant you substantiate your claim. you cant possibly hide behind the 'intolerant' climate of this thread. no one else seems to have a problem voicing their stance.

My view has many many aspects to it. People can't handle that, seemingly. they find it flaky because they do not appreciate a holistic view, and the underlying principles of the paradigm. They attempt to understand it logically, which cannot be done. It can be broken down and expressed logically, but the logic is a mere map to give one an idea of it. It's a very small minority who operate in a holistic way(less than 1% of the population), and I totally accept it's not widely accepted or understood.

Talking about a holistic view with people caught up in linear patriarchal views reminds me of when I point at the moon, and people look at my finger and say there's nothing special about that at all.

catefrances

angelica wrote:

My view has many many aspects to it. People can't handle that, seemingly. they find it flaky because they do not appreciate a holistic view, and the underlying principles of the paradigm. They attempt to understand it logically, which cannot be done. It can be broken down and expressed logically, but the logic is a mere map to give one an idea of it. It's a very small minority who operate in a holistic way(less than 1% of the population), and I totally accept it's not widely accepted or understood.

Talking about a holistic view with people caught up in linear patriarchal views reminds me of when I point at the moon, and people look at my finger and say there's nothing special about that at all.

caught up in their linear patriarchal views. LMFAO!! that cant be me you speak of, that much i know. damn right i find you flaky sometimes, but if you have an opinion angelica help us understand it. dont hide behind the apparent lack of appreciation of your way of thinking. you talk a lot angelica but sometimes you dont actually say anything. thats what we have the trouble with. youre so caught up in your holistic views that you forget not all of us think the way you do. and if you want understanding then you need to keep it simple sometimes, you know? youve got this huge understanding? then take our hand and guide us through it. dont tell us we wouldnt understand or are closed to the notion.

btw whilst youre pointing at the moon, im standing on its surface.

angelica

catefrances wrote:

caught up in their linear patriarchal views. LMFAO!! that cant be me you speak of, that much i know. damn right i find you flaky sometimes, but if you have an opinion angelica help us understand it. dont hide behind the apparent lack of appreciation of your way of thinking. you talk a lot angelica but sometimes you dont actually say anything. thats what we have the trouble with. youre so caught up in your holistic views that you forget not all of us think the way you do. and if you want understanding then you need to keep it simple sometimes, you know? youve got this huge understanding? then take our hand and guide us through it. dont tell us we wouldnt understand or are closed to the notion.

btw whilst youre pointing at the moon, im standing on its surface.

Or I can be who I am...and express my opinion/view as is. I'm okay with that. I'm personally more than okay with tapping into the few I connect well with, and who understand me. People will only hear what they are ready to hear. I accept that. If people get hooked into what I'm saying in an argumentative way, I appreciate that on a deeper unconscious level, they are getting something from it.

In other formats, like the book I'm writing, I speak in a very different voice meant to reach many. Here I speak as myself, unadulterated, and make no apology.

I totally accept if people don't get me. If I felt comfortable in the conversations, and if respect was mutually practised, I may be willing to clarify. I do often in threads, happily.

If I have to bend over backwards to clarify, and feel discomfort and slings and arrows, it's not worth it.

angelica

catefrances wrote:

caught up in their linear patriarchal views. LMFAO!! that cant be me you speak of, that much i know.

For the record, black/white, right/wrong thinking is linear. Where two opposing views cannot be accepted as valid side by side.....where one is accepted, another rejected...and 98% of the population practises this view, and takes it to be accurate and the truth

catefrances

angelica wrote:

Or I can be who I am...and express my opinion/view as is. I'm okay with that. I'm personally more than okay with tapping into the few I connect well with, and who understand me. People will only hear what they are ready to hear. I accept that. If people get hooked into what I'm saying in an argumentative way, I appreciate that on a deeper unconscious level, they are getting something from it.

In other formats, like the book I'm writing, I speak in a very different voice meant to reach many. Here I speak as myself, unadulterated, and make no apology.

I totally accept if people don't get me. If I felt comfortable in the conversations, and if respect was mutually practised, I may be willing to clarify. I do often in threads, happily.

If I have to bend over backwards to clarify, and feel discomfort and slings and arrows, it's not worth it.

so what youre saying is here in this format you dont want to reach the many? youll save that for the medium of hard copy print where you speak with a very different voice?? and these two voices are both still who you are?

angelica

catefrances wrote:

so what youre saying is here in this format you dont want to reach the many? youll save that for the medium of hard copy print where you speak with a very different voice?? and these two voices are both still who you are?

I often come here to work out my own view. I'm not interested in argument. Period. I reach who I am meant to here, by natural selection. It works like magic. All that is required is that I be myself, and do what I feel I need to.

Writing a book is different. I put my view out there. People like it or not, resonate to it or not. There is no argument. I have had a natural draw to universal appeal my whole life, and I use what I've uncovered in that avenue, as a tool for getting the purpose I've been given out to as many as possible.

Of course different aspects of me in different contexts, given my different purposes, is me from multiple-dimensions.

catefrances

angelica wrote:

I often come here to work out my own view. I'm not interested in argument. Period. I reach who I am meant to here, by natural selection. It works like magic. All that is required is that I be myself, and do what I feel I need to.

Writing a book is different. I put my view out there. People like it or not, resonate to it or not. There is no argument. I have had a natural draw to universal appeal my whole life, and I use what I've uncovered in that avenue, as a tool for getting the purpose I've been given out to as many as possible.

Of course different aspects of me in different contexts, given my different purposes, is me from multi-dimensions.

magic?? ..is an illusion. you just lost me angelica.

timsinclair

decides2dream wrote:

btw - VERY pooor analogy. if EVERY unborn child were systematically exterminated that might be csomething...but satill a stretch. many, many women get pregnant, the chiuld is intitially unwanted and unborn...but many, many women decide to continue on with the pregnancy as is their individual right and choice to make. so yes, sorry...thanks for playing...but incorrect. if you had some direct correlation that EVERY nitially unwanted child was aborted, you might have a case...but since that is NOT the case.....just doesn't hold water. thanks for playing though.

Was EVERY European Jew killed in the Holocaust? No
Was the Holocaust still a genocide? Yes

I think that covers it

washedinblack91

catefrances wrote:

you talk a lot angelica but sometimes you dont actually say anything.

this is the only participation i'm going to be doing in this thread. i've read the entire thread and i agree with this. no offense to angelica at all, but whenever i read your posts, the majority of it i couldn't understand what you were saying, almost as if you're trying to use big words to act smart, but end up not saying anything at all. and apparently i wasn't the only one who thought this! there have been quite a few people on this thread that couldn't understand what you were saying and i thought i was the only one who didn't! i think you just need to just organize your thoughts more clearly again, no offense or anything..

Collin

timsinclair wrote:

Was EVERY European Jew killed in the Holocaust? No
Was the Holocaust still a genocide? Yes

I think that covers it

Hi Tim,

I think it's a silly analogy for several reasons. First of all, "genocide is the deliberate and systematic destruction, in whole or in part, of an ethnic, racial, religious, or national group."

According to this definition, and we must use a definition, the holocaust was definitely a genocide.

There's nothing systematic about abortion, though. Nothing. Jewish people were targeted and sent to camps to be exterminated. Abortion is an individual choice. It's also not a deliberate destruction of an entire group, abortion is the deliberate decision of one woman to terminate her pregnancy.
Abortion doesn't have anything to do with race, religion, ethnicity...

It's individual. That's the main point. Abortion simply isn't genocide, unless you want to change the definition of genocide of course, then but all individual murders would be considered genocide as well - if not, please explain the difference.

So, no abortion is not genocide even if you consider an embryo to be human life. It would be murder, not genocide.

But, I don't think an embryo is human life. I'm still against abortion, though. Yet I'm pro-choice.

Kann

timsinclair wrote:

Was EVERY European Jew killed in the Holocaust? No
Was the Holocaust still a genocide? Yes

I think that covers it

Comparing situations to the holocaust/ww2/hitler doesn't add weight to any argument. I wish people would stop using these pointless comparisons.
Tim, don't you think that abortions would take place wether the law allows it or not? Don't you think the most efficient way to limit these acts would be to have sound prevention policies on unwanted pregnancy rather than criminalizing thousands of women?

ladygooddiva

every women should have the choice what she do that s how i see it
come on it is our bodys ,our opinien,our choice
and what if you been raped why should a woman have again be raped by getting this child ?
and all over the world women should be allowed to use condoms or the pill ...

angelica

washedinblack91 wrote:

this is the only participation i'm going to be doing in this thread. i've read the entire thread and i agree with this. no offense to angelica at all, but whenever i read your posts, the majority of it i couldn't understand what you were saying, almost as if you're trying to use big words to act smart, but end up not saying anything at all. and apparently i wasn't the only one who thought this! there have been quite a few people on this thread that couldn't understand what you were saying and i thought i was the only one who didn't! i think you just need to just organize your thoughts more clearly again, no offense or anything..

My guess is that everyone in the thread understands the assertion that upon conception, when this new being is formed, and has it's own DNA, it becomes a different entity - one all it's own - individual from it's mother and father. Whether people disagree with it or not.

Collin

ladygooddiva wrote:

every women should have the choice what she do that s how i see it
come on it is our bodys ,our opinien,our choice

It's also someone else's potential baby. I hope all the ladies here who talk about "their choice" would at least consult and discuss this decision with their partner.

Jeanie

Collin wrote:

It's also someone else's potential baby. I hope all the ladies here who talk about "their choice" would at least consult and discuss this decision with their partner.

Would depend entirely on the circumstances.

catch22

angelica wrote:

You're more likely someone obnoxious like soulsinging.........................

people keep throwing that at me. he must have been one hell of a guy to get people so riled up. i'll take it as a compliment. in any case, i appreciate how nonjudgmental that is of you.

Medicated-Genius

Collin wrote:

It's also someone else's potential baby. I hope all the ladies here who talk about "their choice" would at least consult and discuss this decision with their partner.

I'd think that in most cases, they probably do. Unfortunately, at the end of the day, the women has to make the final decision about it, even if in consultation with a partner. I still think that would be a very difficult choice to make.

catch22

angelica wrote:

My guess is that everyone in the thread understands the assertion that upon conception, when this new being is formed, and has it's own DNA, it becomes a different entity - one all it's own - individual from it's mother and father. Whether people disagree with it or not.

indeed we do. but are you making that assertion? the point is no one here even knows what you are saying about any of this. most of your posts in here have nothing to do with abortion and have everything to do with how you think different from us and are special and misunderstood and won't sink to our level. for someone who claims they do not need to justify herself to us, you sure do seem to feel compelled to respond to every criticism of your style and evasiveness and make excuses for it. how are those of us who disagree with that assertion somehow pressuring women into getting abortions? this is the claim you pseudo-made and refuse to substantiate. and of course, it could not possibly be because you have no support for it, rather, it is because all of us are too incapable of understanding your way of thinking because you think on some elite plane only 1% of the population can achieve (as you stated a few posts ago).

the reason you perceive me as "obnoxious" is because i am exasperated and frustrated. if you never had any intention of debating abortion (not your holistic views and how they are better than our linear ones), then why did you post in an abortion thread? why do you continue to do so? despite the controversial and emotional nature of the topic, it seems many have no problem sticking to the topic and engaging in a heated, passionate, but still respectful debate about it.

angelica

catch22 wrote:

indeed we do. but are you making that assertion? the point is no one here even knows what you are saying about any of this. most of your posts in here have nothing to do with abortion and have everything to do with how you think different from us and are special and misunderstood and won't sink to our level. for someone who claims they do not need to justify herself to us, you sure do seem to feel compelled to respond to every criticism of your style and evasiveness and make excuses for it. how are those of us who disagree with that assertion somehow pressuring women into getting abortions? this is the claim you pseudo-made and refuse to substantiate. and of course, it could not possibly be because you have no support for it, rather, it is because all of us are too incapable of understanding your way of thinking because you think on some elite plane only 1% of the population can achieve (as you stated a few posts ago).

the reason you perceive me as "obnoxious" is because i am exasperated and frustrated. if you never had any intention of debating abortion (not your holistic views and how they are better than our linear ones), then why did you post in an abortion thread? why do you continue to do so? despite the controversial and emotional nature of the topic, it seems many have no problem sticking to the topic and engaging in a heated, passionate, but still respectful debate about it.

It's understandable that when I make a direct statement, and when people read into that with assumptions about what I mean, rather than take my words for what they say, people will hear what their own filters are seeing and will not understand the value of a direct statement.

I make the assertions I do. Therefore, you can rest assured when I make an assertion, that I'm making that assertion!! At the same time, I often can and do see 20 other views as well. So when people want to limit what I say because they can't see the validity of understanding all views, I don't own that. But, again, when I assert something, that is the ONE thing I stand behind 100%. I don't stand behind what I don't say. I don't stand behind what people imagine I am saying. I stand behind what I say, 100%.

Not only do I assert my position, but I'm very well willing to discuss it in situations where people show they are open to communicate. When people are judging and assuming, and when faced with feedback that they are mishearing and misunderstanding, and they continue on, I'm seeing there is little room for productive communication. Therefore, I'm happy to merely assert my opinion. Until people come along and represent they are open to respectful discussion.