I thought I'd start a thread on Abortion

angelica

Abuskedti wrote:

I don't think anyone considers abortion an "ideal option".

I've heard people justify and rationalise why it's the ideal option given the circumstances.

catefrances

CorporateWhore wrote:

At least you admit it lollers

why wouldnt i admit fact?

besides as someone just said tis not EVERY unwanted potential child.

catch22

he still stands wrote:

And plus... When you go to heaven you think you'll be like, "hi grandma it is so cool to finally see you again" but when you actually get to Heaven, there will be this little pissed off guy giving you shit and kicking you in the crotch and it will be your abortion, furious at you. Personally, I don't want to take that risk.

i'm hoping that if it got into heaven it's proven itself to be very big on that christian forgiveness stuff.

searchlightsoul

angelica wrote:

.....




Upon conception, the conceived entity has it's own DNA. This DNA is independant of it's mother or father's DNA, meaning it belongs to a new human life. It's not too difficult to understand.

But that is just one perception of the truth....:rolleyes:

searchlightsoul

he still stands wrote:

Abortion needs to be eradicated by a paradigm shift in the mass subconscious to a higher level of understanding, not by politicians' laws. Abortion takes away a life from this world, and all life should be held sacred, whether or not you believe a fetus is actually "alive" at the time of abortion is a moot point.

It hardly a moot point. A ball of cells is not a human being. It has the potential to become one but that is not the same thing.

Medicated-Genius

he still stands wrote:

Abortion needs to be eradicated by a paradigm shift in the mass subconscious to a higher level of understanding, not by politicians' laws. Abortion takes away a life from this world, and all life should be held sacred, whether or not you believe a fetus is actually "alive" at the time of abortion is a moot point.




And plus... When you go to heaven you think you'll be like, "hi grandma it is so cool to finally see you again" but when you actually get to Heaven, there will be this little pissed off guy giving you shit and kicking you in the crotch and it will be your abortion, furious at you. Personally, I don't want to take that risk.






What a pestilent and plastic world we live in.

Are you assuming everyone believes in heaven?

timsinclair

catefrances wrote:

tim. the INTENT was to eradicate EVERY european Jew.
abortion is not genocide because amongst other things, the intent to eradicate every potential/unborn/whatever child is simply not there.

Hi cate.

I think the intent to eradicate all unwanted children is there in the minds of leading abortionists since it follows from their philosophy. To understand why, we need to go back to how abortion got started in the first place.

The idea that the human fetus is not human until the later stages of its development is based on the so-called ‘biogenetic law’ (recapitulation) proposed by Ernst Haeckel. Haeckel was an early convert to Darwinian theory and was influenced by Francis Galton (Darwin’s cousin) who applied Dawin’s theory to the human race (social Darwinism/Eugenics). The biogenetic law stated that the fetus relives human evolutionary ancestry during its 9 months in the womb. Haeckel commissioned a series of illustrations of human fetuses at various stages showing alleged ‘gill slits’ at the ‘amphibious stage’ and many other such ludicrous ideas. These illustrations have been exposed as a fraud and the Biogenetic law is now rejected by the scientific community, yet they still appear in many highschool textbooks.

Haeckel stated that ‘politics is applied biology’, a quote used by Nazi propagandists to justify many of their actions. Haeckel used his theory to justify infanticide, abortion, and assisted suicide or voluntary euthanasia, but he also supported the involuntary killing of the mentally ill.’

Marie Stopes, who founded the largest worldwide abortion provider (Marie Stopes International), along with the first UK family planning clinic was a committed eugenecist and called for the sterilization of the ‘lowest and worst members of the community’ whose ‘stunted and warped infants’ were burdensome to the ‘classes above them’. Likewise, Margaret Sanger founder and president of the International Planned Parenthood Association (also a eugenecist), referred to certain segments of society as ‘human waste that should never have been born.’

As a result, since 1973 there have been nearly 6 million abortions performed in the UK, and some 42 million in the USA, it is also estimated that there are currently 46 million abortions each year worldwide. This is by far the biggest genocide in human history and interestingly it is based on the same psuedo-scientific theories as the second biggest genocide – the Nazi holocaust.

Peace

Abuskedti

angelica wrote:

I've heard people justify and rationalise why it's the ideal option given the circumstances.

I think that unfairly represents the other side. The chosen option when stuck between a rock and a hard place does not, the definition of Ideal, make.

catefrances

timsinclair wrote:

Hi cate.

I think the intent to eradicate all unwanted children is there in the minds of leading abortionists since it follows from their philosophy. To understand why, we need to go back to how abortion got started in the first place.

The idea that the human fetus is not human until the later stages of its development is based on the so-called ‘biogenetic law’ (recapitulation) proposed by Ernst Haeckel. Haeckel was an early convert to Darwinian theory and was influenced by Francis Galton (Darwin’s cousin) who applied Dawin’s theory to the human race (social Darwinism/Eugenics). The biogenetic law stated that the fetus relives human evolutionary ancestry during its 9 months in the womb. Haeckel commissioned a series of illustrations of human fetuses at various stages showing alleged ‘gill slits’ at the ‘amphibious stage’ and many other such ludicrous ideas. These illustrations have been exposed as a fraud and the Biogenetic law is now rejected by the scientific community , (also a eugenecist), yet they still appear in many highschool textbooks.

Haeckel stated that ‘politics is applied biology’, a quote used by Nazi propagandists to justify many of their actions. Haeckel used his theory to justify infanticide, abortion, and assisted suicide or voluntary euthanasia, but he also supported the involuntary killing of the mentally ill.’

Marie Stopes, who founded the largest worldwide abortion provider (Marie Stopes International), along with the first UK family planning clinic was a committed eugenecist and called for the sterilization of the ‘lowest and worst members of the community’ whose ‘stunted and warped infants’ were burdensome to the ‘classes above them’. Likewise, Margaret Sanger founder and president of the International Planned Parenthood Association (also a eugenecist), referred to certain segments of society as ‘human waste that should never have been born.’

As a result, since 1973 there have been nearly 6 million abortions performed in the UK, and some 42 million in the USA, it is also estimated that there are currently 46 million abortions each year worldwide. This is by far the biggest genocide in human history and interestingly it is based on the same psuedo-scientific theories as the second biggest genocide – the Nazi holocaust.

Peace

perhaps tim perhaps. have you numnbers on how many doctors who carry out abortions are actually eugenicists or influenced by them? personally i have zero time for eugenicists. my views have in no way been influenced by eugenicists. though i am aware of them, i do not care for the justifications of the nazi regime. they were wrong tis as simple as that.
as i have stated before and for the reasons mentioned abortion is not genocide. it just does not fit the criteria. to my mind they are not comparable. genocide is systematic and deliberate with the appropriate apparatus in place to make sure the agenda is carried out. and i just do not see abortion in that light.

_

timsinclair wrote:

Hi cate.

I think the intent to eradicate all unwanted children is there in the minds of leading abortionists since it follows from their philosophy. To understand why, we need to go back to how abortion got started in the first place.

The idea that the human fetus is not human until the later stages of its development is based on the so-called ‘biogenetic law’ (recapitulation) proposed by Ernst Haeckel. Haeckel was an early convert to Darwinian theory and was influenced by Francis Galton (Darwin’s cousin) who applied Dawin’s theory to the human race (social Darwinism/Eugenics). The biogenetic law stated that the fetus relives human evolutionary ancestry during its 9 months in the womb. Haeckel commissioned a series of illustrations of human fetuses at various stages showing alleged ‘gill slits’ at the ‘amphibious stage’ and many other such ludicrous ideas. These illustrations have been exposed as a fraud and the Biogenetic law is now rejected by the scientific community, yet they still appear in many highschool textbooks.

Haeckel stated that ‘politics is applied biology’, a quote used by Nazi propagandists to justify many of their actions. Haeckel used his theory to justify infanticide, abortion, and assisted suicide or voluntary euthanasia, but he also supported the involuntary killing of the mentally ill.’

Marie Stopes, who founded the largest worldwide abortion provider (Marie Stopes International), along with the first UK family planning clinic was a committed eugenecist and called for the sterilization of the ‘lowest and worst members of the community’ whose ‘stunted and warped infants’ were burdensome to the ‘classes above them’. Likewise, Margaret Sanger founder and president of the International Planned Parenthood Association (also a eugenecist), referred to certain segments of society as ‘human waste that should never have been born.’

As a result, since 1973 there have been nearly 6 million abortions performed in the UK, and some 42 million in the USA, it is also estimated that there are currently 46 million abortions each year worldwide. This is by far the biggest genocide in human history and interestingly it is based on the same psuedo-scientific theories as the second biggest genocide – the Nazi holocaust.

Peace

Are you actually suggesting that abortion "got started" in the 19th century, due to the philosophies you stated above? There is record in medical texts of abortion happening since at least 2737 BC. (Of course, that's just the first record of it. There's every reason to believe it was happening since before recorded history.)

decides2dream

scb wrote:

Are you actually suggesting that abortion "got started" in the 19th century, due to the philosophies you stated above? There is record in medical texts of abortion happening since at least 2737 BC. (Of course, that's just the first record of it. There's every reason to believe it was happening since before recorded history.)

kinda like thinking birth control was invented in the last century. sure, the birth control PILL was...but other forms, such as the IUD, has been around for hundreds of years. initially, it was admittedly a very primitive form of contraceptive, used with camels. rocks in female camels uteruses...so that on long journeys they wouldn't get pregnant. sure, took a LOT longer to figure out the hows and whys and adapt the idea for humans.....but humans have been messing around with controlling reproduction more than likely since the beginning of time.

he still stands

Medicated-Genius wrote:

Are you assuming everyone believes in heaven?

The part about going to heaven only to find your abortion there waiting for you, pissed/furious/kicking you in the crotch... is a joke (Doug Stanhope).

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=miQ1vnLInZg

(about 3 minutes in)

However this joke does sardonically point out that creating a life is a blessing -- a divine gift -- and to tamper with this blessing I think is a grave mistake. Life is all we have. I don't know what happens after this life... and anyone who tells you they know for certain is full of shit. But I do know that every life, unborn or born, should be given the same opportunity to live.

I'm no "pro-lifer" and I'm not trying to proselytize any Christian belief or anything like that... I just think that people should stop being so selfish and apathetic and careless about having abortions. I don't think that the fetus is "alive" at 4 weeks but again... it is a moot point.

Abuskedti

he still stands wrote:

The part about going to heaven only to find your abortion there waiting for you, pissed/furious/kicking you in the crotch... is a joke (Doug Stanhope).

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=miQ1vnLInZg

(about 3 minutes in)

However this joke does sardonically point out that creating a life is a blessing -- a divine gift -- and to tamper with this blessing I think is a grave mistake. Life is all we have. I don't know what happens after this life... and anyone who tells you they know for certain is full of shit. But I do know that every life, unborn or born, should be given the same opportunity to live.

I'm no "pro-lifer" and I'm not trying to proselytize any Christian belief or anything like that... I just think that people should stop being so selfish and apathetic and careless about having abortions. I don't think that the fetus is "alive" at 4 weeks but again... it is a moot point.

ahhh, no its not a blessing. God made it so thousands of baby turtles are born and only a couple survive. They aren't blessings until after they get out of diapers.

he still stands

Abuskedti wrote:

ahhh, no its not a blessing. God made it so thousands of baby turtles are born and only a couple survive. They aren't blessings until after they get out of diapers.

Is there a soul behind your beady little piss-hole eyes? I'm sorry... but if you don't think the act of creating life is a blessing... then you lead a pestilent and meaningless existence, regardless of your opinion about abortion.

Abuskedti

he still stands wrote:

Is there a soul behind your beady little piss-hole eyes? I'm sorry... but if you don't think the act of creating life is a blessing... then you lead a pestilent and meaningless existence, regardless of your opinion about abortion.

Really? pestilent? Blessing? meaningless? act of creating life?

so much to work with.

Medicated-Genius

he still stands wrote:

The part about going to heaven only to find your abortion there waiting for you, pissed/furious/kicking you in the crotch... is a joke (Doug Stanhope).

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=miQ1vnLInZg

(about 3 minutes in)

However this joke does sardonically point out that creating a life is a blessing -- a divine gift -- and to tamper with this blessing I think is a grave mistake. Life is all we have. I don't know what happens after this life... and anyone who tells you they know for certain is full of shit. But I do know that every life, unborn or born, should be given the same opportunity to live.

I'm no "pro-lifer" and I'm not trying to proselytize any Christian belief or anything like that... I just think that people should stop being so selfish and apathetic and careless about having abortions. I don't think that the fetus is "alive" at 4 weeks but again... it is a moot point.

Sorry, my bad on the joke

I'm sure there are some who are careless and apathetic where abortion is concerned, but I tend to think most women who go through this have thought long and hard about it and considered all their options carefully. Personally, I don't believe using abortion as a form of birth control is a good thing, but again I have a tendency to think that this isn't the majority.

timsinclair

scb wrote:

Are you actually suggesting that abortion "got started" in the 19th century, due to the philosophies you stated above? There is record in medical texts of abortion happening since at least 2737 BC. (Of course, that's just the first record of it. There's every reason to believe it was happening since before recorded history.)

No. What I am suggesting is that 19th century Darwinian philosophy got abortion legalized and widely accepted in the western world. Abortion is a form of Eugenics because it does all the things that the cruder forms of Eugenics propose. Eugenics advocates killing a disabled child after it has been born but that is a little unsettling for us, all that blood. Instead we kill them before they make it out so we dont have to see the bloodshed. We kill the unborn for having even the most minor malformation like cleft pallet and then tell ourselves we are doing it for their own good.

I once heard Ed Vedder justify abortion saying 'surely God, or whoever the fuck is in control, will give them [aborted fetuses] another chance'. I thought it sounded reasonable at the time but think about it! Its the kind of argument that would work just as well justifying killing a disabled 1 year old. Now that Ed has become an Atheist, I guess he has dropped this one, I wonder what new argument he has dreamed up?

Peace

Abuskedti

timsinclair wrote:

No. What I am suggesting is that 19th century Darwinian philosophy got abortion legalized and widely accepted in the western world. Abortion is a form of Eugenics because it does all the things that the cruder forms of Eugenics propose. Eugenics advocates killing a disabled child after it has been born but that is a little unsettling for us, all that blood. Instead we kill them before they make it out so we dont have to see the bloodshed. We kill the unborn for having even the most minor malformation like cleft pallet and then tell ourselves we are doing it for their own good.

I once heard Ed Vedder justify abortion saying 'surely God, or whoever the fuck is in control, will give them [aborted fetuses] another chance'. I thought it sounded reasonable at the time but think about it! Its the kind of argument that would work just as well justifying killing a disabled 1 year old. Now that Ed has become an Atheist, I guess he has dropped this one, I wonder what new argument he has dreamed up?

Peace

You are right... Abortion is a bad thing. Nobody really denies that. We are delt some cards and we play them. We make choices. Far fewer people would die accidental deaths if we didn't have cars. there are always choices made. If you make abortion illegal, you not only stop the abortion, but you require the mother to carry and feed and care for the child, not for 9 months, but for about 18 years. There is no other requirement of anyone anywhere else that is not entered voluntarily.

_

timsinclair wrote:

No. What I am suggesting is that 19th century Darwinian philosophy got abortion legalized and widely accepted in the western world.

No, no, no. Abortion was always common and widely accepted, especially until "quickening". Even Hippocrates is thought to have provided abortions. Even the Catholic Church tacitly permitted early abortions & wasn't highly active in anti-abortion capaigns until the 19th century. It wasn't until the 19th century that abortion started to be more regulated by law. In England, surgical abortion wasn't illegal for all stages of pregnancy until the passage of the Offenses Against the Person Act of 1861. In the U.S., abortion became illegal over the period of 1850 to the 1870s, and this was driven by the American Medical Association (AMA) as a turf war against midwives and other non-university-trained practitioners of medicine. Then, a century later, the AMA reversed its position and called for the legalization of abortion.

callen

he still stands wrote:

Is there a soul behind your beady little piss-hole eyes? I'm sorry... but if you don't think the act of creating life is a blessing... then you lead a pestilent and meaningless existence, regardless of your opinion about abortion.

Creating "human" life is not a blessing..its a curse...a curse for all of the other beautiful creatures God created. We're systematically stripping this planet bare and won't stop till we end up as did the folks on Easter Island. We're not special. Course we are part of evolution so the cycle will continue.

"We're a virus with shoes" Bill Hicks