Cause and Effect: the Ahole syndrome

Ahnimus

soulsinging wrote:

im not the one with the jesus complex man, that's your department. i dont claim to be saving anyone for anything. im asking you, what SHOULD have been done eh? they offered him counseling, they OFFERED to help him cope with his past, he refused. what should have been done?

lol

Change society man, that's all I can suggest. The alternative would have been to detain Cho and give him a lobotomy or something.

thankyougrandma

Ahnimus wrote:

I would prefer to teach that social disabilities do exist in sick people and society rejected that for some kind of moral blameworthiness is not going to help us prevent this in the future.

Bah, wtf do I know, keep doing it the way you've been doing it, your setting records now!

sure sure, you know you're too intelligent for me, i can't understand what you're trying to say about me personally setting records.

If you mean it's useless to talk about the blame, then i say don't participate in this discussion cause that's the point being discuss here.

soulsinging

Ahnimus wrote:

When I was 14 I almost went on a murderous rampage, for pretty much the same reasons Cho has stated. Except I also suffered a traumatic brain injury. One of the reasons I may never have gone on a rampage was the quality of my brain, or possibly that I didn't have access to any guns. I also had parents who instilled good values in me, even though I typically rejected them socially.

if you had gone through with it, what should have happened? should you have gone to jail? or should you have been released with apologies from the government for taking up so much of your time by asking you why you did it?

Ahnimus

surferdude wrote:

Are you saying, responsible no but played a part? Doesn't playing a part naturally imply a level of responsibility? Doesn't giving a level of responsibility to the name callers make them instigators? In making them instigators haven't you in some way justified the killer's actions?

I don't think responsibility is a natural law. I think it's a human social construct.

soulsinging

Ahnimus wrote:

lol

Change society man, that's all I can suggest. The alternative would have been to detain Cho and give him a lobotomy or something.

oh i see. so your solution is that rather than encouraging each person to try to change their own actions (possible) we somehow magically try to force EVERYONE else in the world to change their actions (good luck)? THAT is your plan to deal with mass murderers? ignore their crimes, let them go free, and tell society they need to be nicer to him from now on?

NMyTree

polaris wrote:

i'm not saying your response is right or wrong ... but the point is you had a response to what you considered to be unfair ...

I had a response to physical attacks. I defended myself. I got stronger and learned how to fight better; to protect my ass from getting pulverized every day. Never did I seek revenge. These were the type of kids who waited outside of in the school yard or on my path home, to jump me or start the fight.

It doesn't matter whether you or anyone else think it was right or wrong. I would have defended myself no matter what. It's instinct.

polaris wrote:

are the people that picked on you absolved of all responsibility in your mind?

I never said they were. But if I responded by shooting them, knifing them and beating them with a baseball bat; that would have been a gross, unacceptable, inexcusable over-reaction and response.

Luckily my parents though me better than that. They took the time to teach me some things.

Can't say the same for a lot of the parents in the world, today. Not just America, but the whole world.

Ahnimus

soulsinging wrote:

if you had gone through with it, what should have happened? should you have gone to jail? or should you have been released with apologies from the government for taking up so much of your time by asking you why you did it?

Ah social polarization, a blessing to humanity. NOT!

Kat

I'm wondering why people are having so much trouble speaking/discussing respectfully with one another? If an issue is important enough to discuss, surely it can be done without being abusive to each other...taunting is also not ok.

Admin

polaris

thankyougrandma wrote:

Well of course, in the end he was marginalized, insulted and unhappy, my point is, it's just the same for millions of other humans on this planet, of course it's not excusable or normal for anyone to live like this and i think it's a deep society problem that lead in most case to suicide, but this guy, even if he wasn't treated fairly, had this thing that made him snapped, that is not seen in most other person, i can't explain what, i sure don't know what. Ok here's something, they might be held accountable for his own suicide, but not for the fact that he killed many others.

I think it's easy to blame kids who insulted him, when they just did what many other kids do in this society, as i pointed out, it's the culture that we live in, as long as we accept it and think our capitalist ways and production system work, these things will happen, and humans will commit suicide cause they can't meet normal standard. Anyway, again many will disagree, since they like the current system and i respect that.

for sure ... thankfully, not everyone reacts like him or else we'd all be dead ...

Ahnimus

soulsinging wrote:

oh i see. so your solution is that rather than encouraging each person to try to change their own actions (possible) we somehow magically try to force EVERYONE else in the world to change their actions (good luck)? THAT is your plan to deal with mass murderers? ignore their crimes, let them go free, and tell society they need to be nicer to him from now on?

Just gotta understand people better, that's all I want.

NOT LONG AGO, A 40-YEAR-OLD MAN walked into the University of Virginia Hospital in Charlottesville. He complained that he had lost his self-control and was about to rape his landlady, but the doctors were skeptical—and with good reason. The man was scheduled to be sentenced the next day for having committed sexual offenses, and his appearance at the hospital seemed like an effort to avoid his impending incarceration. But the psychologists examining him decided to have a neurologist look at him first.

The neurologist was also suspicious of the man's motives, but a few things about him seemed legitimately off. When he walked, his feet were more widely spaced than they should have been. One of his arms seemed stiff. He had problems identifying objects to his left. The doctor decided that the man showed enough symptoms of neurological damage that it was worth doing an MRI of his brain before sending him off to prison. They found something surprising. A tumor the size of an egg was growing up from the bottom of the man's skull and was pushing against the prefrontal lobe of his brain, the area responsible for self-restraint. Startled, the doctors scheduled an emergency operation and removed the tumor.

The man was a public school teacher who had earned a master's degree, had a clean record, and enjoyed a stable marriage. Then, suddenly, he found himself drawn to child pornography. He began trolling the web for images of children, and he solicited sex at a massage parlor, something he'd never done before. For a while, he was able to hide his new dark self, but his desires grew darker as his ability to control them waned. Eventually, the man was caught making advances toward his stepdaughter, and the police removed him from his home. He was sent to a program for rehabilitation of sexual offenders, but was thrown out for persistently propositioning the nurses. Having failed his rehab, the man was about to go to prison.

In the hospital during the days before the operation, the man was a menace, making coarse jokes, laughing as he urinated on himself, and, as had become his penchant, propositioning the nurses. But the man's personality changed as soon as he came to after the surgery: With the tumor gone, he became his old self. He stopped asking hospital staff for sexual favors, and when he left the hospital, he stopped downloading pornography. After completing the rehabilitation program that he had been thrown out of, the doctors there declared that he was no longer a threat. He returned to his home and his wife.

He was himself for about a year. Then the tumor started to grow again. As the tumor re-emerged, so did his prurience. He began to troll the Internet again. But this time, before he slid back into criminality, he returned to the hospital. The doctors removed a second tumor, and once again restored the man to his better self.

http://www.legalaffairs.org/issues/January-February-2006/feature_thompson_janfeb06.msp

polaris

surferdude wrote:

Are you saying, responsible no but played a part? Doesn't playing a part naturally imply a level of responsibility? Doesn't giving a level of responsibility to the name callers make them instigators? In making them instigators haven't you in some way justified the killer's actions?

it depends on how you want to view it ... i am in no way saying these people should be punished or anything extreme as that ... simply that in society today - we are not acknowledging the impact this kind of behaviour has ...

polaris

NMyTree wrote:

I never said they were. But if I responded by shooting them, knifing them and beating them with a baseball bat; that would have been a gross, unacceptable, inexcusable over-reaction and response.

Luckily my parents though me better than that. They took the time to teach me some things.

Can't say the same for a lot of the parents in the world, today. Not just America, but the whole world.

well ... that is what i'm talking about ... what about the kid that couldn't stand up for himself or too weak to fight back? ...

NMyTree

Ahnimus wrote:

Holding him morally blameworthy is fine, cause he's dead and it won't have any affect on his pscyhe either, all it's doing, all it's every done that is good, is made the 'public' feel the cold sweet taste of revenge. But revenge can corrupt the mind as well.

"There are a lot of myths which make the human race cruel and barbarous and unkind. Good and Evil, Sin and Crime, Free Will and the like delusions made to excuse God for damning men and to excuse men for crucifying each other." - Clarence Darrow

I concern myself with the victims, first. Not with the pschye of a mass-murder. I fully understand that he was severly troubled and mentally-ill to have done such a thing. But I see giving this guy sympathy as an insult and apathy to and for the victims. Understanding why he did what he did is important. But not to the point where he gets sympathy.

Making fun of someone, while certainly hurtful in a lot of ways; does not warrant a murder spree. Self-defense for one's life and the defense of one's family and friend's lives, is the only situation where murder is excusable. In my opinion.

Ahnimus

Polaris I think you are fighting a loosing battle against indeterminacy.

People want cause and effect, but they want the cause to be attributable to the effect in some way to morally justify revenge.

What I feel is that the universe is not caring, not morally justifiable and more often than not the causes are mundane.

Ahnimus

NMyTree wrote:

I concern myself with the victims, first. Not with the pschye of a mass-murder. I fully understand that he was severly troubled and mentally-ill to have done such a thing. But I see giving this guy sympathy as an insult and apathy to and for the victims. Understanding why he did what he did is important. But not to the point where he gets sympathy.

Making fun of someone, while certainly hurtful in a lot of ways; does not warrant a murder spree. Self-defense for one's life and the defense of one's family and friend's lives, is the only situation where murder is excusable. In my opinion.

Yea, the truth is often bitter. That's why people tend to spit it out.

polaris

Ahnimus wrote:

Polaris I think you are fighting a loosing battle against indeterminacy.

People want cause and effect, but they want the cause to be attributable to the effect in some way to morally justify revenge.

What I feel is that the universe is not caring, not morally justifiable and more often than not the causes are mundane.

all we can do is try and make the world a little less cruel ...

Ahnimus

polaris wrote:

all we can do is try and make the world a little less cruel ...

I agree

Check out my youtube videos on the subject

Simplified Philosophy of Determinism
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dC-amGODYSA
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AoPoZEuA3IA

Re: Freewill vs Determinism (Morality)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=L-rXCxFj134

soulsinging

Ahnimus wrote:

Just gotta understand people better, that's all I want.

NOT LONG AGO, A 40-YEAR-OLD MAN walked into the University of Virginia Hospital in Charlottesville. He complained that he had lost his self-control and was about to rape his landlady, but the doctors were skeptical—and with good reason. The man was scheduled to be sentenced the next day for having committed sexual offenses, and his appearance at the hospital seemed like an effort to avoid his impending incarceration. But the psychologists examining him decided to have a neurologist look at him first.

The neurologist was also suspicious of the man's motives, but a few things about him seemed legitimately off. When he walked, his feet were more widely spaced than they should have been. One of his arms seemed stiff. He had problems identifying objects to his left. The doctor decided that the man showed enough symptoms of neurological damage that it was worth doing an MRI of his brain before sending him off to prison. They found something surprising. A tumor the size of an egg was growing up from the bottom of the man's skull and was pushing against the prefrontal lobe of his brain, the area responsible for self-restraint. Startled, the doctors scheduled an emergency operation and removed the tumor.

The man was a public school teacher who had earned a master's degree, had a clean record, and enjoyed a stable marriage. Then, suddenly, he found himself drawn to child pornography. He began trolling the web for images of children, and he solicited sex at a massage parlor, something he'd never done before. For a while, he was able to hide his new dark self, but his desires grew darker as his ability to control them waned. Eventually, the man was caught making advances toward his stepdaughter, and the police removed him from his home. He was sent to a program for rehabilitation of sexual offenders, but was thrown out for persistently propositioning the nurses. Having failed his rehab, the man was about to go to prison.

In the hospital during the days before the operation, the man was a menace, making coarse jokes, laughing as he urinated on himself, and, as had become his penchant, propositioning the nurses. But the man's personality changed as soon as he came to after the surgery: With the tumor gone, he became his old self. He stopped asking hospital staff for sexual favors, and when he left the hospital, he stopped downloading pornography. After completing the rehabilitation program that he had been thrown out of, the doctors there declared that he was no longer a threat. He returned to his home and his wife.

He was himself for about a year. Then the tumor started to grow again. As the tumor re-emerged, so did his prurience. He began to troll the Internet again. But this time, before he slid back into criminality, he returned to the hospital. The doctors removed a second tumor, and once again restored the man to his better self.

http://www.legalaffairs.org/issues/January-February-2006/feature_thompson_janfeb06.msp

i dont doubt the veracity of this kind of science. but the fact remains we cannot force medical procedures on people. when the science gets to the point that we can widely predict such things or discover them easily, im hoping it will become moot. ie. everyone knows so when a guy feels these strange compulsions he has no fear of seeking help about it from a doctor or psychiatrist to fix the problem BEFORE the crime. even after the crime, we have pleadings for mental incompetency... if it is as simple as removing a tumor, he can be conveyed to a hospital instead f jail. however, if you refuse to confront your problem and deal with it appropriately, you must accept the consequences. if he ignores or refuses help with his newfound urges and hurts somebody else, then yes, he belongs in jail where he cannot harm other members of society.

i am a recovering alcoholic. the compulsions i felt were beyond my control and i knew that and refused help. when i was arrested, i did not feel my jailtime was unjust... i knew the risk i posed to others and it was only fair to them to remove me from society for a time. it was the only thing that made me seriously consider my problems and confront them.

Ahnimus

soulsinging wrote:

i dont doubt the veracity of this kind of science. but the fact remains we cannot force medical procedures on people. when the science gets to the point that we can widely predict such things or discover them easily, im hoping it will become moot. ie. everyone knows so when a guy feels these strange compulsions he has no fear of seeking help about it from a doctor or psychiatrist to fix the problem BEFORE the crime. even after the crime, we have pleadings for mental incompetency... if it is as simple as removing a tumor, he can be conveyed to a hospital instead f jail. however, if you refuse to confront your problem and deal with it appropriately, you must accept the consequences. if he ignores or refuses help with his newfound urges and hurts somebody else, then yes, he belongs in jail where he cannot harm other members of society.

i am a recovering alcoholic. the compulsions i felt were beyond my control and i knew that and refused help. when i was arrested, i did not feel my jailtime was unjust... i knew the risk i posed to others and it was only fair to them to remove me from society for a time. it was the only thing that made me seriously consider my problems and confront them.

Yea, but you live with a belief in moral free-will. I don't and I don't think your worldview should affect my life. If I start killing people and refuse treatment, I want the treatment forced on me.

soulsinging

Ahnimus wrote:

Yea, but you live with a belief in moral free-will. I don't and I don't think your worldview should affect my life. If I start killing people and refuse treatment, I want the treatment forced on me.

i also dont think your worldview should affect my life. so i dont think your worldview should affect my life. so you shouldn't get a free pass after murdering someone to go right back out and try it again. cos maybe the surgeon missed the right spot. or maybe you got the wrong dose of meds. or whatever.

if you start killing people, too late. in the united states, that would fall under cruel and unusual punishment. personally, id prefer jail to being forced into thought control. the potential for abuse of that power is too great. so now every weirdo is lobotomized. homosexuals are neutered. etc etc. it's a scary idea. read brave new world. yeah, it might help some people, but it might be used to destroy all unique thought and creative impulses. you yourself point to how most great thinkers were considered insane at first. in your society, they would be forced under the surgeon for being too weird.