Cause and Effect: the Ahole syndrome

soulsinging

farfromglorified wrote:

Well, this kid just showed you the solution to that "problem".

eh, i was just fucking around. i think this is a pretty unworkable idea. people will always form social groups. in any society where some have more than others there will be envy and condescension. and in any adolescent group you're going to get cliques forming and trying to assert their dominance. it's not just frats. though i have my own personal issues with them, most of the guys i know who were in frats were no better or worse than any other students on campus. in fact, the most arrogant and snobbish people i ever met on campus were the people that probly frequent this place... the indie snobs and artists who acted so superior to everyone else. this isn't just a rich asshole thing. poor people can be assholes and rich people can be wonderful people. i dont think there's any conclusive evidence that the latter are worse.

surferdude

Where's the onus on the shooter to actually learn how to socialize and get along with people? I know my son has friends who are destined to be social outcasts, they don't even try to fit in. I also know that my son will drift from their lives as they can be downers, they don't get along with the crowd. At a certain point socially you get to the point where it's "conform or be cast out". I'm tired of all the blame be pointed to people who didn't pull the trigger just because some social outcast who can't even identify why he's an outcast says it's their fault.

No one made that fuck up pull the trigger. No one lead him to do it.

Heineken Helen

soulsinging wrote:

eh, i was just fucking around. i think this is a pretty unworkable idea. people will always form social groups. in any society where some have more than others there will be envy and condescension. and in any adolescent group you're going to get cliques forming and trying to assert their dominance. it's not just frats.

This is true... but not to the extent that frats go to . I thought that was just exaggerated for films til recently cos I thought surely no WAY would people put up with that bullshit

I went to a pretty small school and, while there were groups and cliques, nobody was left alone and most cliques got on with eachother. Some people had ego problems with eachother but everyone was quite nice to the so-called geeks. It would just be too simple to pick on them so people didn't really. I'm sure there WERE the odd people who were picked on but they were usually stronger people picked on by older people... kinda like pissing on their territory or something :rolleyes:

jeffbr

surferdude wrote:

No one made that fuck up pull the trigger. No one lead him to do it.

Yup. The shooter alienated himself. He was described by others are being arrogant and aloof. He would never even acknowledge a friendly "hello". It sounds like plenty of people (teachers & students) tried to help this guy. So let's not be too hasty in shifting the blame away from the fucker who pulled the trigger.

Heineken Helen

surferdude wrote:

Where's the onus on the shooter to actually learn how to socialize and get along with people? I know my son has friends who are destined to be social outcasts, they don't even try to fit in. I also know that my son will drift from their lives as they can be downers, they don't get along with the crowd. At a certain point socially you get to the point where it's "conform or be cast out". I'm tired of all the blame be pointed to people who didn't pull the trigger just because some social outcast who can't even identify why he's an outcast says it's their fault.

No one made that fuck up pull the trigger. No one lead him to do it.

Great point actually. Sometimes it's not up to everyone to accept. I'm not going to be nice to someone I don't like or don't connect with just cos I expect them to go on a shooting rampage. While the blame still obviously lies with the shooter and his messed up head, and while I really really sympathise with the parents... how did they let him get this far?

soulsinging

Heineken Helen wrote:

This is true... but not to the extent that frats go to . I thought that was just exaggerated for films til recently cos I thought surely no WAY would people put up with that bullshit

I went to a pretty small school and, while there were groups and cliques, nobody was left alone and most cliques got on with eachother. Some people had ego problems with eachother but everyone was quite nice to the so-called geeks. It would just be too simple to pick on them so people didn't really. I'm sure there WERE the odd people who were picked on but they were usually stronger people picked on by older people... kinda like pissing on their territory or something :rolleyes:

did you have frats at your school? in my xp, small schools are much more closely knit, by the sheer logic that everyone kinda knows everyone and can find common ground. things are different at big schools like the one i went to and VT. there is a lot of harassment, but as i recall it was no different from frats to other groups. the one place i think frats lag behind is their treatment of women, but that's a different issue.

know1

Who says he was ever bullied or treated badly? It's all about perception. Some people will ALWAYS think their the victim no matter how they are treated. Others can be treated the exact same and not think twice about it.

polaris

surferdude wrote:

Where's the onus on the shooter to actually learn how to socialize and get along with people? I know my son has friends who are destined to be social outcasts, they don't even try to fit in. I also know that my son will drift from their lives as they can be downers, they don't get along with the crowd. At a certain point socially you get to the point where it's "conform or be cast out". I'm tired of all the blame be pointed to people who didn't pull the trigger just because some social outcast who can't even identify why he's an outcast says it's their fault.

No one made that fuck up pull the trigger. No one lead him to do it.

uhhh ... how many times does one have to type that this is not a justification for his actions whatsoever?? ... seriously, you put a disclaimer in the post and no one reads it ... oh well ...

it's a simple matter that i believed was overlooked ... there are many parts in this story however big or small ... this is just but one ...

Heineken Helen

soulsinging wrote:

did you have frats at your school? in my xp, small schools are much more closely knit, by the sheer logic that everyone kinda knows everyone and can find common ground. things are different at big schools like the one i went to and VT. there is a lot of harassment, but as i recall it was no different from frats to other groups. the one place i think frats lag behind is their treatment of women, but that's a different issue.

Frats, as they are known, are practically non-existant outside of the states as far as I'm aware. I think there ARE fraternities in the big universities here but they're different to what's shown on tv of the American ones... MUCH different. I don't think people get away with acting like that over here.

NMyTree

All the world's problems are a result of one asshole or another.

And before you all get too carried away with this crap. Assholeness knows no boundries. Assholeness does not descriminate, nor is assholeness selective.

Assholes come in all shapes, sizes, and ethnicities. Nor does it matter if one is poor, middleclass, rich or wealthy. You will find assholes littered generoulsy throughout.

polaris

NMyTree wrote:

All the world's problems are a result of one asshole or another.

And before you all get too carried away with this crap. Assholeness knows no boundries. Assholeness does not descriminate, nor is assholeness selective.

Assholes come in all shapes, sizes, and ethnicities. Nor does it matter if one is poor, middleclass, rich or wealthy. You will find assholes littered generoulsy throughout.

absolutely, how many times does one have to type that before people pick up on that??

thankyougrandma

Millions and millions of people are not living according to "society standard", you can say they're marginal, and they're obviously marginalized. Our society is in search for more secure security and it seem like the way to achieve it is to make everyone the same, homogeneous society seem to be the solution. Look good, train hard, work hard, be intelligent, be productive, love your neighbour, pray, go to school, eat well... of course this modern world ideals doesn't and cannot fit to everyone, but it doesn't mean that everyone sharing this killer personality trait, will soon become dangerous for everyone else, and become a psychos.

Listening to all these "experts" and psychiatrist just makes me feel bad, i just hope that it won't become a witch/communist/terrorist hunt, where the guy lifting weights in his basement, will just have to make a phone call to make the weird guy in his class arrested, in the name of this so called homogenous society.

This suspect was declared mentally ill, and was not treated, it seems like it's not his social status that made him a killer, but his mental illness. That's just my opinion of course...

soulsinging

Heineken Helen wrote:

Frats, as they are known, are practically non-existant outside of the states as far as I'm aware. I think there ARE fraternities in the big universities here but they're different to what's shown on tv of the American ones... MUCH different. I don't think people get away with acting like that over here.

acting like what? im just curious what you all see of frats over there.

NMyTree

polaris wrote:

absolutely, how many times does one have to type that before people pick up on that??

7,359,986..........times.

thankyougrandma

Also about this "Virginia Massacre" (CNN title), just a little side question, haven't you seen how peoples were praying after those incidents and singing God's song and the likes? Isn't it God who create all that? Isn't it part of what God "created"?

NMyTree

thankyougrandma wrote:

Also about this "Virginia Massacre" (CNN title), just a little side question, haven't you seen how peoples were praying after those incidents and singing God's song and the likes? Isn't it God who create all that? Isn't it part of what God "created"?

Yes.

But apparently "God" doesn't take blame for the bad, negative, horrific things in this life and on this planet. He only takes credit for some goofball scoring a touchdown, hitting a homerun, for someone narrowly escaping almost certain death or someone overcoming a severe addiction.

And as the religious will till you, it "all part of God's plan" and it's not for us to question why "God" allows these things to occur.

inmytree

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20070419/ap_on_re_us/virginia_tech_shooting

Va. Tech shooter was laughed at

By MATT APUZZO, Associated Press Writer 12 minutes ago

Long before he snapped, Virginia Tech gunman Cho Seung-Hui was picked on, pushed around and laughed at over his shyness and the strange way he talked when he was a schoolboy in the Washington suburbs, former classmates say.

Chris Davids, a Virginia Tech senior who graduated from Westfield High School in Chantilly, Va., with Cho in 2003, recalled that the South Korean immigrant almost never opened his mouth and would ignore attempts to strike up a conversation.

Once, in English class, the teacher had the students read aloud, and when it was Cho's turn, he just looked down in silence, Davids recalled. Finally, after the teacher threatened him with an F for participation, Cho started to read in a strange, deep voice that sounded "like he had something in his mouth," Davids said.

"As soon as he started reading, the whole class started laughing and pointing and saying, `Go back to China,'" Davids said.

The high school classmates' accounts add to the psychological portrait that is beginning to take shape, and could shed light on Cho's state of mind in the video rant he mailed to NBC in the middle of his rampage Monday at Virginia Tech.

He shot 32 people to death and committed suicide in the deadliest one-man shooting rampage in modern U.S. history.

In the often-incoherent video, the 23-year-old Cho portrays himself as persecuted and rants about rich kids.

"Your Mercedes wasn't enough, you brats," says Cho, who came to the U.S. in 1992 and whose parents work at a dry cleaners in suburban Washington. "Your golden necklaces weren't enough, you snobs. Your trust funds wasn't enough. Your vodka and cognac wasn't enough. All your debaucheries weren't enough. Those weren't enough to fulfill your hedonistic needs. You had everything."

Among the victims of the massacre were two other Westfield High graduates: Reema Samaha and Erin Peterson. Both young women graduated from the high school last year. Police said it is not clear whether Cho singled them out.

Stephanie Roberts, 22, a fellow member of Cho's graduating class at Westfield High, said she never witnessed anyone picking on Cho in high school.

"I just remember he was a shy kid who didn't really want to talk to anybody," she said. "I guess a lot of people felt like maybe there was a language barrier."

But she said friends of hers who went to middle school with Cho told her they recalled him getting picked on there.

"There were just some people who were really mean to him and they would push him down and laugh at him," Roberts said Wednesday. "He didn't speak English really well and they would really make fun of him."

Virginia Tech student Alison Heck said a suitemate of hers on campus — Christina Lilick — found a mysterious question mark scrawled on the dry erase board on her door. Lilick went to the same high school as Cho, according to Lilick's Facebook page. Cho once scrawled a question mark on the sign-in sheet on the first day of a literature class, and other students came to know him as "the question mark kid."

"I don't know if she knew that it was him for sure," Heck said. "I do remember that that fall that she was being stalked and she had mentioned the question mark. And there was a question mark on her door."

Heck added: "She just let us know about it just in case there was a strange person walking around our suite."

Lilick could not immediately be located for comment, via e-mail or telephone.

On Wednesday, NBC received a package containing a rambling and often incoherent 23-page written statement from Cho, 28 video clips and 43 photos — many of them showing Cho brandishing handguns. A Postal Service time stamp reads 9:01 a.m. — between the two attacks on campus.

The package helped explain one mystery: where the gunman was and what he did during that two-hour window between the first burst of gunfire, at a high-rise dorm, and the second attack, at a classroom building.

"You had a hundred billion chances and ways to have avoided today," a snarling Cho says on video. "But you decided to spill my blood. You forced me into a corner and gave me only one option. The decision was yours. Now you have blood on your hands that will never wash off."

Col. Steve Flaherty, superintendent of the Virginia State Police, said Thursday that the material contained little they did not already know. Flaherty said he was disappointed that NBC decided to broadcast parts of it.

"I just hate that a lot of people not used to seeing that type of image had to see it," he said.

On NBC's "Today" show Thursday, host Meredith Vieira said the decision to air the information "was not taken lightly." Some victims' relatives canceled their plans to speak with NBC because they were upset over the airing of the images, she said.

"I saw his picture on TV, and when I did I just got chills," said Kristy Venning, a junior from Franklin County, Va. "There's really no words. It shows he put so much thought into this and I think it's sick."

Some of the pictures in the video package show him smiling; others show him frowning and snarling. Some depict him brandishing two weapons at a time, one in each hand. He wears a khaki-colored military-style vest, fingerless gloves, a black T-shirt, a backpack and a backward, black baseball cap. Another photo shows him swinging a hammer two-fisted. Another shows an angry-looking Cho holding a gun to his temple.

There has been some speculation, especially among online forums, that Cho may have been inspired by the South Korean movie "Oldboy." One of the killer's mailed photos shows him brandishing a hammer — the signature weapon of the protagonist — and in a pose similar to one from the film.

The film won the Gran Prix prize at the Cannes Film Festival in 2004. It is about a man unjustly imprisoned for 15 years. After escaping, he goes on a rampage against his captor.

Authorities on Thursday disclosed that more than a year before the massacre, Cho had been accused of sending unwanted messages to two women and was taken to a psychiatric hospital on a magistrate's orders and was pronounced a danger to himself. But he was released with orders to undergo outpatient treatment.

The disclosure added to the rapidly growing list of warning signs that appeared well before the student opened fire. Among other things, Cho's twisted, violence-filled writings and sullen, vacant-eyed demeanor had disturbed professors and students so much that he was removed from one English class and was repeatedly urged to get counseling.

___

polaris

everyone plays a part however big or small ...

surferdude

polaris wrote:

uhhh ... how many times does one have to type that this is not a justification for his actions whatsoever?? ... seriously, you put a disclaimer in the post and no one reads it ... oh well ...

it's a simple matter that i believed was overlooked ... there are many parts in this story however big or small ... this is just but one ...

It's a joke of a reason and shouldn't even be considered. Everyone feels picked on sometimes, everyone feels their parents are unfair. Everyone feels the social outcast at times. Haven't you ever seen The Breakfast Club?

When 99.99999999999999% of society can deal with life I don't place any blame on society for one fucked up individual.

polaris

surferdude wrote:

It's a joke of a reason and shouldn't even be considered. Everyone feels picked on sometimes, everyone feels their parents are unfair. Everyone feels the social outcast at times. Haven't you ever seen The Breakfast Club?

When 99.99999999999999% of society can deal with life I don't place any blame on society for one fucked up individual.

interesting ... i wonder how you would respond if you were picked on for speaking funny? ... i guess women who are verbally abused should stop complaining also ...