Cause and Effect: the Ahole syndrome

polaris

first of all - there is no justification for the killing of innocent people anywhere ... whether it be at a University in suburban USA or in the heart of the Middle East ...

but, let's strip away the race, mental disorders, gun control and look at some of the things apparent ...

this guy hated selfish ahole rich kids ... actually, i dislike selfish ahole rich kids ... the key 2 words: selfish and ahole ... will i shoot any - not likely, i dislike guns more ... but i digress ...

point here is that i have no doubt that at some point in this kid's life he was treated like a piece of shit by some privileged person or persons - again, is that a justification for mass murder? hell no - however, this is part of the cause and effect ...

we all know that there are aholes everywhere ... they get a kick being aholes ... cuz it makes them feel good about themselves ... it's like bullies - well, these are some of the effects aholes have in our society ... something we often overlook ...

anyone want to comment?

farfromglorified

If ahole rich kids are the cause of psycopath killers, shouldn't you be looking for the cause of ahole rich kids?

mammasan

polaris wrote:

first of all - there is no justification for the killing of innocent people anywhere ... whether it be at a University in suburban USA or in the heart of the Middle East ...

but, let's strip away the race, mental disorders, gun control and look at some of the things apparent ...

this guy hated selfish ahole rich kids ... actually, i dislike selfish ahole rich kids ... the key 2 words: selfish and ahole ... will i shoot any - not likely, i dislike guns more ... but i digress ...

point here is that i have no doubt that at some point in this kid's life he was treated like a piece of shit by some privileged person or persons - again, is that a justification for mass murder? hell no - however, this is part of the cause and effect ...

we all know that there are aholes everywhere ... they get a kick being aholes ... cuz it makes them feel good about themselves ... it's like bullies - well, these are some of the effects aholes have in our society ... something we often overlook ...

anyone want to comment?

I agree with you that at some point in our lives we have been bullied or had to deal with some asshole, but I don't think that this is a cause of these shootings. It may be the reason expressed by the shooter but there is definetly an underlying problem there. The majority of the people who are bullied do not resort to such violent actions to deal with the problem. As a kid we might get into a fist fight with the person and as responsible adults we deal with it in more civilized manners but in any case it is usually the person(s) who carried out the acts against us that we deal with not innocent bystanders. I am no psychologist but to me it seems that there is a disconnect with reality with these shooters. Some type of underlying pschosis that causes them to inflict an incermountable amount of pain and suffering an anyone and everyone because of the inadequences they where made to feel by a one or a small group of people. That is not rational nor logical behavior and to simply say that bullying is cause, not that this is what you are implying, is ignoring the true cause of their actions.

RolandTD20Kdrummer

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cKw9RHd9YAo

Heineken Helen

farfromglorified wrote:

If ahole rich kids are the cause of psycopath killers, shouldn't you be looking for the cause of ahole rich kids?

No that one's pretty simple... Ahole rich parents

The richest man in Ireland is from my town and his kids are just like anyone else... not an ounce of snobbery at all and two of them anyway are lovely lovely girls (I don't know the other kids very well)... possibly cos they were never allowed be snobs. They had to work like anyone else, albeit in Daddys' empire, but still had to work. It's all in the upbringing. It can't be blamed on money or wealth... and you don't need money to be an Ahole :cool:

moeaholic

farfromglorified wrote:

If ahole rich kids are the cause of psycopath killers, shouldn't you be looking for the cause of ahole rich kids?

no. my opinion, they need to get one of these kids before they put a gun in their mouth so they can pick away at their brain. these days, people are looking for a quick fix for everything. people pick on me? well, i guess i'll have to get a gun and kill some random people. my kid is full of piss and vinegar? well, i better get some ridilin (sp?) and turn him into a drooling bag of bones. i can't deal with the fact that i just had a baby and now have post partum blues? well, i better take some pills to cure me. when i was in school, dealing with people picking on you most likely ended with "meet me by the swings after school". when i was a kid and was bouncing off the walls my mom would tell me to go outside and play football or baseball with my friends. when my mom and her mom and all the moms before her had post partum, they got through it without the "help" of medication.

Heineken Helen

The sad thing is nobody is allowed to be different in any way. Now people will be more and more on the look out for 'anti-social' behaviours :( and think a kid who refuses to comply with 'normality' is gonna shoot them all down. Ok, it was obviously the case with this one guy... but it was his differences that kept him apart in the first place. But not everyone who's different is a killer. Not everyone who's different has this in them. Some people who create disturbing writing may be simply getting it out using their creativity. Some of the most normal people in the world can be brewing up inside trying to escape normality.

polaris

please re-read the original post ... two key words were "selfish" and "ahole" ...

i do believe i also stated that this incident wasn't totally the result of his relations with these people ... but, to say that it had no effect is absurd ...

it's about exploring what we consider to be reasonable behaviour to other people ... we could addressing this with this particular forum ...

there are aholes amongst us - who get their kicks being aholes over the anonymous world we call the internet ... we've seen people get utterly discombulated here ... some have been banned, some disappear ... some can handle it and some can't ...

Pacomc79

I just "generally" think we all overgeneralize and build up that which annoys us. I'm annoyed by all sorts of people for all sorts of reasons but in my daily interactions generally I like people, for every a hole idiot jerk, there are probably 10 nice people (of all races and all walks of life) I come in contact with. Whenever I get really mad or upset, I get it out of my system and then think about all the cool people I meet.


What's that quote...."Don't let the bastards get you down..."


I figure if I can build up one person when they are down then I'm doing my job one at a time.

Everyone is an asshole and everyone's an angel generally at some point in their lives.

farfromglorified

polaris wrote:

please re-read the original post ... two key words were "selfish" and "ahole" ...

Hehe...I'm a selfish ahole. Who's fault is that?

i do believe i also stated that this incident wasn't totally the result of his relations with these people ... but, to say that it had no effect is absurd ...

Of course it has an effect. But you're saying it has a direct deterministic effect. So if that's the case, how are the rich selfish aholes any different? Aren't they just slaves to something else?

it's about exploring what we consider to be reasonable behaviour to other people ... we could addressing this with this particular forum ...

there are aholes amongst us - who get their kicks being aholes over the anonymous world we call the internet ... we've seen people get utterly discombulated here ... some have been banned, some disappear ... some can handle it and some can't ...

Hey, I'm with you on this. Some people are aholes. Everyone needs to be a little better to one another. But if your behavior simply justifies mine, what hope do you have to change your own?

mammasan

polaris wrote:

please re-read the original post ... two key words were "selfish" and "ahole" ...

i do believe i also stated that this incident wasn't totally the result of his relations with these people ... but, to say that it had no effect is absurd ...

it's about exploring what we consider to be reasonable behaviour to other people ... we could addressing this with this particular forum ...

there are aholes amongst us - who get their kicks being aholes over the anonymous world we call the internet ... we've seen people get utterly discombulated here ... some have been banned, some disappear ... some can handle it and some can't ...

I don't think it is a cause simply because I believe, and this is just my opinion, that these kids have an underlying issue. The bullying may have just been a trigger of their pent up rage and agression. If it wasn't the bullying it could be a girlfriend/boyfriend breaking up with them or a bad grade on a test.

polaris

farfromglorified wrote:

Hehe...I'm a selfish ahole. Who's fault is that?

i dunno

farfromglorified wrote:

Of course it has an effect. But you're saying it has a direct deterministic effect. So if that's the case, how are the rich selfish aholes any different? Aren't they just slaves to something else?

maybe ... maybe not ...

farfromglorified wrote:

Hey, I'm with you on this. Some people are aholes. Everyone needs to be a little better to one another. But if your behavior simply justifies mine, what hope do you have to change your own?

again ... no justification for killing ... period ... full stop ... end of sentence ...

it's about acknowledging that these aholes in his life have played a part however big or small ...

farfromglorified

polaris wrote:

it's about acknowledging that these aholes in his life have played a part however big or small ...

Sure. The non-aholes in his life also played a part, however big or small. Everyone that ever came into contact with this person in any way played a part, however big or small, including his own victims. What purpose do you have in acknowledging this?

Heineken Helen

farfromglorified wrote:

Sure. The non-aholes in his life also played a part, however big or small. Everyone that ever came into contact with this person in any way played a part, however big or small, including his own victims. What purpose do you have in acknowledging this?

What purpose do you have in ignoring it?

farfromglorified

Heineken Helen wrote:

What purpose do you have in ignoring it?

I'm not ignoring it at all. I agree that it exists and should be acknowledged. I'm just curious why only the "selfish ahole rich kids" are being called out here?

Collin

What about selfish ahole poor kids?

polaris

mammasan wrote:

I don't think it is a cause simply because I believe, and this is just my opinion, that these kids have an underlying issue. The bullying may have just been a trigger of their pent up rage and agression. If it wasn't the bullying it could be a girlfriend/boyfriend breaking up with them or a bad grade on a test.

but some say anger or hate is based upon being perceived to be a victim ... maybe if some of these people treated him a bit better over the years - he many not have broke?? ... everything is clearly speculative of course but i think its part of the discussion that has been overlooked ...

Heineken Helen

farfromglorified wrote:

I'm not ignoring it at all. I agree that it exists and should be acknowledged. I'm just curious why only the "selfish ahole rich kids" are being called out here?

Because they were the ones he pointed out. The selfish poor kids obviously didn't bother him.

polaris

again ... the "rich" part was thrown in because of what the dude wrote ... key words are selfish and ahole ... you don't have to be rich to be an ahole - that's for damm sure ...

soulsinging

farfromglorified wrote:

If ahole rich kids are the cause of psycopath killers, shouldn't you be looking for the cause of ahole rich kids?

we've found it, but you wont let us tax you enough to fix that problem

farfromglorified

soulsinging wrote:

we've found it, but you wont let us tax you enough to fix that problem

Well, this kid just showed you the solution to that "problem".

soulsinging

farfromglorified wrote:

Well, this kid just showed you the solution to that "problem".

eh, i was just fucking around. i think this is a pretty unworkable idea. people will always form social groups. in any society where some have more than others there will be envy and condescension. and in any adolescent group you're going to get cliques forming and trying to assert their dominance. it's not just frats. though i have my own personal issues with them, most of the guys i know who were in frats were no better or worse than any other students on campus. in fact, the most arrogant and snobbish people i ever met on campus were the people that probly frequent this place... the indie snobs and artists who acted so superior to everyone else. this isn't just a rich asshole thing. poor people can be assholes and rich people can be wonderful people. i dont think there's any conclusive evidence that the latter are worse.

surferdude

Where's the onus on the shooter to actually learn how to socialize and get along with people? I know my son has friends who are destined to be social outcasts, they don't even try to fit in. I also know that my son will drift from their lives as they can be downers, they don't get along with the crowd. At a certain point socially you get to the point where it's "conform or be cast out". I'm tired of all the blame be pointed to people who didn't pull the trigger just because some social outcast who can't even identify why he's an outcast says it's their fault.

No one made that fuck up pull the trigger. No one lead him to do it.

Heineken Helen

soulsinging wrote:

eh, i was just fucking around. i think this is a pretty unworkable idea. people will always form social groups. in any society where some have more than others there will be envy and condescension. and in any adolescent group you're going to get cliques forming and trying to assert their dominance. it's not just frats.

This is true... but not to the extent that frats go to . I thought that was just exaggerated for films til recently cos I thought surely no WAY would people put up with that bullshit

I went to a pretty small school and, while there were groups and cliques, nobody was left alone and most cliques got on with eachother. Some people had ego problems with eachother but everyone was quite nice to the so-called geeks. It would just be too simple to pick on them so people didn't really. I'm sure there WERE the odd people who were picked on but they were usually stronger people picked on by older people... kinda like pissing on their territory or something :rolleyes:

jeffbr

surferdude wrote:

No one made that fuck up pull the trigger. No one lead him to do it.

Yup. The shooter alienated himself. He was described by others are being arrogant and aloof. He would never even acknowledge a friendly "hello". It sounds like plenty of people (teachers & students) tried to help this guy. So let's not be too hasty in shifting the blame away from the fucker who pulled the trigger.

Heineken Helen

surferdude wrote:

Where's the onus on the shooter to actually learn how to socialize and get along with people? I know my son has friends who are destined to be social outcasts, they don't even try to fit in. I also know that my son will drift from their lives as they can be downers, they don't get along with the crowd. At a certain point socially you get to the point where it's "conform or be cast out". I'm tired of all the blame be pointed to people who didn't pull the trigger just because some social outcast who can't even identify why he's an outcast says it's their fault.

No one made that fuck up pull the trigger. No one lead him to do it.

Great point actually. Sometimes it's not up to everyone to accept. I'm not going to be nice to someone I don't like or don't connect with just cos I expect them to go on a shooting rampage. While the blame still obviously lies with the shooter and his messed up head, and while I really really sympathise with the parents... how did they let him get this far?

soulsinging

Heineken Helen wrote:

This is true... but not to the extent that frats go to . I thought that was just exaggerated for films til recently cos I thought surely no WAY would people put up with that bullshit

I went to a pretty small school and, while there were groups and cliques, nobody was left alone and most cliques got on with eachother. Some people had ego problems with eachother but everyone was quite nice to the so-called geeks. It would just be too simple to pick on them so people didn't really. I'm sure there WERE the odd people who were picked on but they were usually stronger people picked on by older people... kinda like pissing on their territory or something :rolleyes:

did you have frats at your school? in my xp, small schools are much more closely knit, by the sheer logic that everyone kinda knows everyone and can find common ground. things are different at big schools like the one i went to and VT. there is a lot of harassment, but as i recall it was no different from frats to other groups. the one place i think frats lag behind is their treatment of women, but that's a different issue.

know1

Who says he was ever bullied or treated badly? It's all about perception. Some people will ALWAYS think their the victim no matter how they are treated. Others can be treated the exact same and not think twice about it.

polaris

surferdude wrote:

Where's the onus on the shooter to actually learn how to socialize and get along with people? I know my son has friends who are destined to be social outcasts, they don't even try to fit in. I also know that my son will drift from their lives as they can be downers, they don't get along with the crowd. At a certain point socially you get to the point where it's "conform or be cast out". I'm tired of all the blame be pointed to people who didn't pull the trigger just because some social outcast who can't even identify why he's an outcast says it's their fault.

No one made that fuck up pull the trigger. No one lead him to do it.

uhhh ... how many times does one have to type that this is not a justification for his actions whatsoever?? ... seriously, you put a disclaimer in the post and no one reads it ... oh well ...

it's a simple matter that i believed was overlooked ... there are many parts in this story however big or small ... this is just but one ...

Heineken Helen

soulsinging wrote:

did you have frats at your school? in my xp, small schools are much more closely knit, by the sheer logic that everyone kinda knows everyone and can find common ground. things are different at big schools like the one i went to and VT. there is a lot of harassment, but as i recall it was no different from frats to other groups. the one place i think frats lag behind is their treatment of women, but that's a different issue.

Frats, as they are known, are practically non-existant outside of the states as far as I'm aware. I think there ARE fraternities in the big universities here but they're different to what's shown on tv of the American ones... MUCH different. I don't think people get away with acting like that over here.

NMyTree

All the world's problems are a result of one asshole or another.

And before you all get too carried away with this crap. Assholeness knows no boundries. Assholeness does not descriminate, nor is assholeness selective.

Assholes come in all shapes, sizes, and ethnicities. Nor does it matter if one is poor, middleclass, rich or wealthy. You will find assholes littered generoulsy throughout.