Cause and Effect: the Ahole syndrome

soulsinging

Ahnimus wrote:

Accountability only works so long as it holds an operational purpose, and not just to self-satisfy your need for revenge, but apparently revenge is justified in modern society.

"Punishment as punishment is not admissible unless the offender has had the free will to select his course." - Clarence Darrow

good call. we shoulda just turned ted bundy loose.

Ahnimus

NMyTree wrote:

True.

And it's sad the world (and the people in it) are this way. But that is human nature and we have to deal with reality. Not idealistic fantasies.

But him shooting 33 people and wounding countless others, is not an acceptable response. Nor can I bring myself to feel sorry for the guy.

I feel sorry for the victims of his shooting spree.

Someone should have helped this guy deal with his anger, alienation and twisted thought process.

Holding him morally blameworthy is fine, cause he's dead and it won't have any affect on his pscyhe either, all it's doing, all it's every done that is good, is made the 'public' feel the cold sweet taste of revenge. But revenge can corrupt the mind as well.

"There are a lot of myths which make the human race cruel and barbarous and unkind. Good and Evil, Sin and Crime, Free Will and the like delusions made to excuse God for damning men and to excuse men for crucifying each other." - Clarence Darrow

Ahnimus

soulsinging wrote:

good call. we shoulda just turned ted bundy loose.

I see your still having a problem with myopia.

thankyougrandma

polaris wrote:

but now you are assigning responsibility to name calling ... the actual offence is irrelevant ... the issue is whether or not those people should be held accountable ...

he has apparently been picked on all his life without anyone ever being held accountable ... the issue isn't whether or not he is justified in killing people nor whether he is blameless ... those issues have been agreed upon by everyone ...

the issue is whether or not we hold people who were bad to him accountable in some way ...

You can held a person accountable for being bad to someone, but you'd have to blame their parents for being bad to educate their kids about respect for others, then you blame what? and who?

They can be held accountable for the fact that the kid was unhappy, but not for the fact that he was a psychos. Many peoples are unhappy and commit suicide, that is a major problem, but there's something bigger in what happen with this guy, he was mentally sick, and other than psychiatrist who let him go free, i don't think someone should be held accountable, other than himself.

polaris

surferdude wrote:

Hold the name callers accountable for name calling and nothing else. Give them an hour detention, the appropriate punishment for name calling.

Leave them 100% out of any discussion regarding the killings. They did not do the killings, they did not cause the killings, they did not in any way do any thing to justify the killer's actions.

i give up ... seriously, how many times does one have to type that there is no justification for the killing of these people?? ... oh right over 7 million times ... i forgot ...

anyhoo - i doubt the people that harassed this kid did a second of detention all these years ... if you don't think they played a part ... we'll agree to disagree ...

Ahnimus

thankyougrandma wrote:

You can held a person accountable for being bad to someone, but you'd have to blame their parents for being bad to educate their kids about respect for others, then you blame what? and who?

They can be held accountable for the fact that the kid was unhappy, but not for the fact that he was a psychos. Many peoples are unhappy and commit suicide, that is a major problem, but there's something bigger in what happen with this guy, he was mentally sick, and other than psychiatrist who let him go free, i don't think someone should be held accountable, other than himself.

I would prefer to teach that social disabilities do exist in sick people and society rejected that for some kind of moral blameworthiness is not going to help us prevent this in the future.

Bah, wtf do I know, keep doing it the way you've been doing it, your setting records now!

soulsinging

Ahnimus wrote:

I see your still having a problem with myopia.

i see YOU'RE still having a problem with reality.

polaris

thankyougrandma wrote:

You can held a person accountable for being bad to someone, but you'd have to blame their parents for being bad to educate their kids about respect for others, then you blame what? and who?

They can be held accountable for the fact that the kid was unhappy, but not for the fact that he was a psychos. Many peoples are unhappy and commit suicide, that is a major problem, but there's something bigger in what happen with this guy, he was mentally sick, and other than psychiatrist who let him go free, i don't think someone should be held accountable, other than himself.

it's not about putting blame or absolving this kid ... it is about understanding every part that played a role in what happened ... absolutely, he was mentally ill and that he should have been treated ... absolutely he is the most accountable person involved ... that's not the issue ...

don't you think that if maybe he was treated a bit differently - it might have turned out different possibly??

Ahnimus

soulsinging wrote:

i see YOU'RE still having a problem with reality.

Like I said, it's your line of thought that's been predominant in society for the last 2000 years. Now you got a record setting massacre and more to come. Maybe it's you that has a problem with reality.

soulsinging

Ahnimus wrote:

I would prefer to teach that social disabilities do exist in sick people and society rejected that for some kind of moral blameworthiness is not going to help us prevent this in the future.

Bah, wtf do I know, keep doing it the way you've been doing it, your setting records now!

bullying a kid in a classroom does not require hours of counseling. in one or two detentions after school, you can teach them more than 40 hours with a shrink. people with REAL mental disabilities (like the shooter) are different. yes, they need treatment. but he was offered counseling and refused it. at that point, he is responsible for his actions. if he refused the help offered, had he been caught, he should have been put in jail. you cannot FORCE somebody to change if they do not want to and he chose not to.

soulsinging

Ahnimus wrote:

Like I said, it's your line of thought that's been predominant in society for the last 2000 years. Now you got a record setting massacre and more to come. Maybe it's you that has a problem with reality.

33 is hardly a record. worse has happened in human history. this kid should have been in treatment, no doubt. but he was offered that route and refused it. what do you suggest doing then? what SHOULD we have done?

Ahnimus

polaris wrote:

it's not about putting blame or absolving this kid ... it is about understanding every part that played a role in what happened ... absolutely, he was mentally ill and that he should have been treated ... absolutely he is the most accountable person involved ... that's not the issue ...

don't you think that if maybe he was treated a bit differently - it might have turned out different possibly??

I do, people just want to point the finger at other people, but history keeps repeating this same lesson to us. This school massacre isn't a new phenomena isolated to one kid's free-will, it keeps happening. This indicates to me that it's more than just one kid's free-will. But hey, there is nothing I can do to change society, except change myself and speak the good word of determinism.

soulsinging

Ahnimus wrote:

I do, people just want to point the finger at other people, but history keeps repeating this same lesson to us. This school massacre isn't a new phenomena isolated to one kid's free-will, it keeps happening. This indicates to me that it's more than just one kid's free-will. But hey, there is nothing I can do to change society, except change myself and speak the good word of determinism.

you sound like a christian.

Ahnimus

soulsinging wrote:

bullying a kid in a classroom does not require hours of counseling. in one or two detentions after school, you can teach them more than 40 hours with a shrink. people with REAL mental disabilities (like the shooter) are different. yes, they need treatment. but he was offered counseling and refused it. at that point, he is responsible for his actions. if he refused the help offered, had he been caught, he should have been put in jail. you cannot FORCE somebody to change if they do not want to and he chose not to.

I thought you were some kind of lawyer, oh yea, you plan on persecution. I guess you aren't at all interested in Clarence Darrow or defending civil liberties and human nature. YOU are intersted in holding people morally blame worthy. Your interest is in exacting revenge upon the scourge of the earth. Do it Batman, but don't expect to save the world with that kind of thought.

Ahnimus

soulsinging wrote:

you sound like a christian.

It's that kind of comforting mumbo jumbo that gets people interested. No one likes the uncaring truth.

polaris

Ahnimus wrote:

I do, people just want to point the finger at other people, but history keeps repeating this same lesson to us. This school massacre isn't a new phenomena isolated to one kid's free-will, it keeps happening. This indicates to me that it's more than just one kid's free-will. But hey, there is nothing I can do to change society, except change myself and speak the good word of determinism.

yeah ... i just think that we are overlooking something important ... obviously, we should treat people like we want to be treated ... but, right now - there are some that don't ... and i believe that they played a role ...

are they responsible for the deaths of 33 people ... no way ... but they played a part ...

soulsinging

Ahnimus wrote:

I thought you were some kind of lawyer, oh yea, you plan on persecution. I guess you aren't at all interested in Clarence Darrow or defending civil liberties and human nature. YOU are intersted in holding people morally blame worthy. Your interest is in exacting revenge upon the scourge of the earth. Do it Batman, but don't expect to save the world with that kind of thought.

im not the one with the jesus complex man, that's your department. i dont claim to be saving anyone for anything. im asking you, what SHOULD have been done eh? they offered him counseling, they OFFERED to help him cope with his past, he refused. what should have been done?

thankyougrandma

polaris wrote:

it's not about putting blame or absolving this kid ... it is about understanding every part that played a role in what happened ... absolutely, he was mentally ill and that he should have been treated ... absolutely he is the most accountable person involved ... that's not the issue ...

don't you think that if maybe he was treated a bit differently - it might have turned out different possibly??

Well of course, in the end he was marginalized, insulted and unhappy, my point is, it's just the same for millions of other humans on this planet, of course it's not excusable or normal for anyone to live like this and i think it's a deep society problem that lead in most case to suicide, but this guy, even if he wasn't treated fairly, had this thing that made him snapped, that is not seen in most other person, i can't explain what, i sure don't know what. Ok here's something, they might be held accountable for his own suicide, but not for the fact that he killed many others.

I think it's easy to blame kids who insulted him, when they just did what many other kids do in this society, as i pointed out, it's the culture that we live in, as long as we accept it and think our capitalist ways and production system work, these things will happen, and humans will commit suicide cause they can't meet normal standard. Anyway, again many will disagree, since they like the current system and i respect that.

Ahnimus

polaris wrote:

yeah ... i just think that we are overlooking something important ... obviously, we should treat people like we want to be treated ... but, right now - there are some that don't ... and i believe that they played a role ...

are they responsible for the deaths of 33 people ... no way ... but they played a part ...

When I was 14 I almost went on a murderous rampage, for pretty much the same reasons Cho has stated. Except I also suffered a traumatic brain injury. One of the reasons I may never have gone on a rampage was the quality of my brain, or possibly that I didn't have access to any guns. I also had parents who instilled good values in me, even though I typically rejected them socially.

surferdude

polaris wrote:

are they responsible for the deaths of 33 people ... no way ... but they played a part ...

Are you saying, responsible no but played a part? Doesn't playing a part naturally imply a level of responsibility? Doesn't giving a level of responsibility to the name callers make them instigators? In making them instigators haven't you in some way justified the killer's actions?