Are you saying, responsible no but played a part? Doesn't playing a part naturally imply a level of responsibility? Doesn't giving a level of responsibility to the name callers make them instigators? In making them instigators haven't you in some way justified the killer's actions?
it depends on how you want to view it ... i am in no way saying these people should be punished or anything extreme as that ... simply that in society today - we are not acknowledging the impact this kind of behaviour has ...
I never said they were. But if I responded by shooting them, knifing them and beating them with a baseball bat; that would have been a gross, unacceptable, inexcusable over-reaction and response.
Luckily my parents though me better than that. They took the time to teach me some things.
Can't say the same for a lot of the parents in the world, today. Not just America, but the whole world.
well ... that is what i'm talking about ... what about the kid that couldn't stand up for himself or too weak to fight back? ...
Holding him morally blameworthy is fine, cause he's dead and it won't have any affect on his pscyhe either, all it's doing, all it's every done that is good, is made the 'public' feel the cold sweet taste of revenge. But revenge can corrupt the mind as well.
"There are a lot of myths which make the human race cruel and barbarous and unkind. Good and Evil, Sin and Crime, Free Will and the like delusions made to excuse God for damning men and to excuse men for crucifying each other." - Clarence Darrow
I concern myself with the victims, first. Not with the pschye of a mass-murder. I fully understand that he was severly troubled and mentally-ill to have done such a thing. But I see giving this guy sympathy as an insult and apathy to and for the victims. Understanding why he did what he did is important. But not to the point where he gets sympathy.
Making fun of someone, while certainly hurtful in a lot of ways; does not warrant a murder spree. Self-defense for one's life and the defense of one's family and friend's lives, is the only situation where murder is excusable. In my opinion.
Polaris I think you are fighting a loosing battle against indeterminacy.
People want cause and effect, but they want the cause to be attributable to the effect in some way to morally justify revenge.
What I feel is that the universe is not caring, not morally justifiable and more often than not the causes are mundane.
I necessarily have the passion for writing this, and you have the passion for condemning me; both of us are equally fools, equally the toys of destiny. Your nature is to do harm, mine is to love truth, and to make it public in spite of you. - Voltaire
I concern myself with the victims, first. Not with the pschye of a mass-murder. I fully understand that he was severly troubled and mentally-ill to have done such a thing. But I see giving this guy sympathy as an insult and apathy to and for the victims. Understanding why he did what he did is important. But not to the point where he gets sympathy.
Making fun of someone, while certainly hurtful in a lot of ways; does not warrant a murder spree. Self-defense for one's life and the defense of one's family and friend's lives, is the only situation where murder is excusable. In my opinion.
Yea, the truth is often bitter. That's why people tend to spit it out.
I necessarily have the passion for writing this, and you have the passion for condemning me; both of us are equally fools, equally the toys of destiny. Your nature is to do harm, mine is to love truth, and to make it public in spite of you. - Voltaire
I necessarily have the passion for writing this, and you have the passion for condemning me; both of us are equally fools, equally the toys of destiny. Your nature is to do harm, mine is to love truth, and to make it public in spite of you. - Voltaire
Just gotta understand people better, that's all I want.
NOT LONG AGO, A 40-YEAR-OLD MAN walked into the University of Virginia Hospital in Charlottesville. He complained that he had lost his self-control and was about to rape his landlady, but the doctors were skeptical—and with good reason. The man was scheduled to be sentenced the next day for having committed sexual offenses, and his appearance at the hospital seemed like an effort to avoid his impending incarceration. But the psychologists examining him decided to have a neurologist look at him first.
The neurologist was also suspicious of the man's motives, but a few things about him seemed legitimately off. When he walked, his feet were more widely spaced than they should have been. One of his arms seemed stiff. He had problems identifying objects to his left. The doctor decided that the man showed enough symptoms of neurological damage that it was worth doing an MRI of his brain before sending him off to prison. They found something surprising. A tumor the size of an egg was growing up from the bottom of the man's skull and was pushing against the prefrontal lobe of his brain, the area responsible for self-restraint. Startled, the doctors scheduled an emergency operation and removed the tumor.
The man was a public school teacher who had earned a master's degree, had a clean record, and enjoyed a stable marriage. Then, suddenly, he found himself drawn to child pornography. He began trolling the web for images of children, and he solicited sex at a massage parlor, something he'd never done before. For a while, he was able to hide his new dark self, but his desires grew darker as his ability to control them waned. Eventually, the man was caught making advances toward his stepdaughter, and the police removed him from his home. He was sent to a program for rehabilitation of sexual offenders, but was thrown out for persistently propositioning the nurses. Having failed his rehab, the man was about to go to prison.
In the hospital during the days before the operation, the man was a menace, making coarse jokes, laughing as he urinated on himself, and, as had become his penchant, propositioning the nurses. But the man's personality changed as soon as he came to after the surgery: With the tumor gone, he became his old self. He stopped asking hospital staff for sexual favors, and when he left the hospital, he stopped downloading pornography. After completing the rehabilitation program that he had been thrown out of, the doctors there declared that he was no longer a threat. He returned to his home and his wife.
He was himself for about a year. Then the tumor started to grow again. As the tumor re-emerged, so did his prurience. He began to troll the Internet again. But this time, before he slid back into criminality, he returned to the hospital. The doctors removed a second tumor, and once again restored the man to his better self.
i dont doubt the veracity of this kind of science. but the fact remains we cannot force medical procedures on people. when the science gets to the point that we can widely predict such things or discover them easily, im hoping it will become moot. ie. everyone knows so when a guy feels these strange compulsions he has no fear of seeking help about it from a doctor or psychiatrist to fix the problem BEFORE the crime. even after the crime, we have pleadings for mental incompetency... if it is as simple as removing a tumor, he can be conveyed to a hospital instead f jail. however, if you refuse to confront your problem and deal with it appropriately, you must accept the consequences. if he ignores or refuses help with his newfound urges and hurts somebody else, then yes, he belongs in jail where he cannot harm other members of society.
i am a recovering alcoholic. the compulsions i felt were beyond my control and i knew that and refused help. when i was arrested, i did not feel my jailtime was unjust... i knew the risk i posed to others and it was only fair to them to remove me from society for a time. it was the only thing that made me seriously consider my problems and confront them.
i dont doubt the veracity of this kind of science. but the fact remains we cannot force medical procedures on people. when the science gets to the point that we can widely predict such things or discover them easily, im hoping it will become moot. ie. everyone knows so when a guy feels these strange compulsions he has no fear of seeking help about it from a doctor or psychiatrist to fix the problem BEFORE the crime. even after the crime, we have pleadings for mental incompetency... if it is as simple as removing a tumor, he can be conveyed to a hospital instead f jail. however, if you refuse to confront your problem and deal with it appropriately, you must accept the consequences. if he ignores or refuses help with his newfound urges and hurts somebody else, then yes, he belongs in jail where he cannot harm other members of society.
i am a recovering alcoholic. the compulsions i felt were beyond my control and i knew that and refused help. when i was arrested, i did not feel my jailtime was unjust... i knew the risk i posed to others and it was only fair to them to remove me from society for a time. it was the only thing that made me seriously consider my problems and confront them.
Yea, but you live with a belief in moral free-will. I don't and I don't think your worldview should affect my life. If I start killing people and refuse treatment, I want the treatment forced on me.
I necessarily have the passion for writing this, and you have the passion for condemning me; both of us are equally fools, equally the toys of destiny. Your nature is to do harm, mine is to love truth, and to make it public in spite of you. - Voltaire
Yea, but you live with a belief in moral free-will. I don't and I don't think your worldview should affect my life. If I start killing people and refuse treatment, I want the treatment forced on me.
i also dont think your worldview should affect my life. so i dont think your worldview should affect my life. so you shouldn't get a free pass after murdering someone to go right back out and try it again. cos maybe the surgeon missed the right spot. or maybe you got the wrong dose of meds. or whatever.
if you start killing people, too late. in the united states, that would fall under cruel and unusual punishment. personally, id prefer jail to being forced into thought control. the potential for abuse of that power is too great. so now every weirdo is lobotomized. homosexuals are neutered. etc etc. it's a scary idea. read brave new world. yeah, it might help some people, but it might be used to destroy all unique thought and creative impulses. you yourself point to how most great thinkers were considered insane at first. in your society, they would be forced under the surgeon for being too weird.
i also dont think your worldview should affect my life. so i dont think your worldview should affect my life. so you shouldn't get a free pass after murdering someone to go right back out and try it again. cos maybe the surgeon missed the right spot. or maybe you got the wrong dose of meds. or whatever.
if you start killing people, too late. in the united states, that would fall under cruel and unusual punishment. personally, id prefer jail to being forced into thought control. the potential for abuse of that power is too great. so now every weirdo is lobotomized. homosexuals are neutered. etc etc. it's a scary idea. read brave new world. yeah, it might help some people, but it might be used to destroy all unique thought and creative impulses. you yourself point to how most great thinkers were considered insane at first. in your society, they would be forced under the surgeon for being too weird.
In my society? Not at all. You seem awfully paranoid about scientific research. If you developed a brain tumor. You wouldn't want it removed? If you had committed a murder with the tumor, you would want to be sent to jail? I'm not following your logic here. It sounds like your saying, causality doesn't matter, it's the conscious self that's entirely responsible for everything the human does? If you put a human in jail the only part of him that's going to suffer is his conscious self. At least that guy had the balls to walk into the hospital and say he'd thought about molesting children. Would you do that? Anyway, I can only laugh and sigh, because I don't get it. Causality works for starting your car or turning on your TV, or typing on your keyboard. But when it comes to people, it stops. And you plan on being a persecutor, it makes a lot of sense, because if you had my perspective, you'd fail at it. I couldn't do it. Because you know that when you put an innocent man in-front of a heated jury and you do what you do, innocent people will be sent to jail. You have to be cold and hard.
I necessarily have the passion for writing this, and you have the passion for condemning me; both of us are equally fools, equally the toys of destiny. Your nature is to do harm, mine is to love truth, and to make it public in spite of you. - Voltaire
acting like what? im just curious what you all see of frats over there.
well you said yourself about their treatment of women. Sure, Irish men are sluts like most of the men of the world but they're pretty respectful Ok, that didn't sound right, lol.
Basically all I know about frats is what I've seen on films and tv programmes and some documentaries. I imagine frat boys to be quite like those guys who picked up borat in the film... or like Jackass. I'm sure I could be completely wrong but when that guy was going on and on I was thinking 'if he was Irish he'd never get laid again'. Now I know not to believe everything I've seen on tv and films BUT having never been to a US university, that's the only information I have and I've been told by people that it's pretty much like that. Am I completely off base? See the difference is over there if somebody acts like God people seem to bel
The Astoria??? Orgazmic!
Verona??? it's all surmountable
Dublin 23.08.06 "The beauty of Ireland, right there!"
Wembley? We all believe!
Copenhagen?? your light made us stars
Chicago 07? And love
What a different life
Had I not found this love with you
In my society? Not at all. You seem awfully paranoid about scientific research. If you developed a brain tumor. You wouldn't want it removed? If you had committed a murder with the tumor, you would want to be sent to jail? I'm not following your logic here. It sounds like your saying, causality doesn't matter, it's the conscious self that's entirely responsible for everything the human does? If you put a human in jail the only part of him that's going to suffer is his conscious self. At least that guy had the balls to walk into the hospital and say he'd thought about molesting children. Would you do that? Anyway, I can only laugh and sigh, because I don't get it. Causality works for starting your car or turning on your TV, or typing on your keyboard. But when it comes to people, it stops. And you plan on being a persecutor, it makes a lot of sense, because if you had my perspective, you'd fail at it. I couldn't do it. Because you know that when you put an innocent man in-front of a heated jury and you do what you do, innocent people will be sent to jail. You have to be cold and hard.
innocent? are you saying cho was innocent? klebold and harris were innocent? they both committed the acts of which they stood accused... there is nothing innocent about that. you may mean culpable, and that is debatable. for cho, maybe he wasn't. for the columbine killers, however, they were.
yes, i admire that the guy you referred to was willing to go to the hospital and admit to his desires and i would like to see a society more open to trying to help people willing to admit that something is wrong.
however, if a brain tumor i had made me kill people, then yes, i belong in jail for that killing. it doesn't happen overnight, and i should have sought help before someone had to die for my stubbornness. i wouldn't want to go, of course. but i would understand that i had to and understand that that is the price i pay for ending someone else's life. and yes, i would rather go to jail than be lobotomized for my crimes, or neutered. becos once you do it to criminals, like i said, what's to stop you from doing it to gay people to "fix" them? to artists and thinkers who are considered a little too weird? to communists and islamic people, just in case?
we are not like a car. even under your causation scheme, there is simply no way to predict future human behavior, so determinism vs. free will is a meaningless distinction. it means you can look back and guess at what might have caused someone to do something, but you cannot prove it. any number of things might have caused it. and it certainly cannot help you predict what somebody might do well enough to stop it becos you will never be able to collect every single bit of information they've ever received and figure out which ones had a significant impact upon them. it might be sound philosophically, but practically it cannot eliminate the need for jails.
i don't know what this persecutor nonsense is. perhaps you meant prosecutor and that ain't happening cos i didn't pass the background check this summer i will be defending juvenile offenders and trying to get them remedial aid programs rather than time in the detention center. can your mind grasp that contradiction?
well you said yourself about their treatment of women. Sure, Irish men are sluts like most of the men of the world but they're pretty respectful Ok, that didn't sound right, lol.
Basically all I know about frats is what I've seen on films and tv programmes and some documentaries. I imagine frat boys to be quite like those guys who picked up borat in the film... or like Jackass. I'm sure I could be completely wrong but when that guy was going on and on I was thinking 'if he was Irish he'd never get laid again'. Now I know not to believe everything I've seen on tv and films BUT having never been to a US university, that's the only information I have and I've been told by people that it's pretty much like that. Am I completely off base? See the difference is over there if somebody acts like God people seem to bel
well, sort of. those guys in borat were not exclusive to frats and most fratboys aren't like that. it's more a rich privileged white kid thing. most rich privileged white kids end up in frats though, so that's probly why they get associated. however, a lot of frats are very good about public service and whatnot. my roommate right now used to be in one and he's a very decent guy. i think some of them go overboard in college... it's like a club and they get competitive and end up behaving like cavemen. most fratboys mellow after college i think, but when they're on campus, yeah, many of them can be pretty bad.
the girls thing is true. the central purpose of most frats is essentially to get is members laid. their parties focus on dosing girls to get beyond blindingly drunk, then fuck them whether they can consent or not, then back each other up on ditching them if need be. it's an ugly system.
Comments
it depends on how you want to view it ... i am in no way saying these people should be punished or anything extreme as that ... simply that in society today - we are not acknowledging the impact this kind of behaviour has ...
well ... that is what i'm talking about ... what about the kid that couldn't stand up for himself or too weak to fight back? ...
I concern myself with the victims, first. Not with the pschye of a mass-murder. I fully understand that he was severly troubled and mentally-ill to have done such a thing. But I see giving this guy sympathy as an insult and apathy to and for the victims. Understanding why he did what he did is important. But not to the point where he gets sympathy.
Making fun of someone, while certainly hurtful in a lot of ways; does not warrant a murder spree. Self-defense for one's life and the defense of one's family and friend's lives, is the only situation where murder is excusable. In my opinion.
People want cause and effect, but they want the cause to be attributable to the effect in some way to morally justify revenge.
What I feel is that the universe is not caring, not morally justifiable and more often than not the causes are mundane.
Yea, the truth is often bitter. That's why people tend to spit it out.
all we can do is try and make the world a little less cruel ...
I agree
Check out my youtube videos on the subject
Simplified Philosophy of Determinism
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dC-amGODYSA
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AoPoZEuA3IA
Re: Freewill vs Determinism (Morality)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=L-rXCxFj134
i dont doubt the veracity of this kind of science. but the fact remains we cannot force medical procedures on people. when the science gets to the point that we can widely predict such things or discover them easily, im hoping it will become moot. ie. everyone knows so when a guy feels these strange compulsions he has no fear of seeking help about it from a doctor or psychiatrist to fix the problem BEFORE the crime. even after the crime, we have pleadings for mental incompetency... if it is as simple as removing a tumor, he can be conveyed to a hospital instead f jail. however, if you refuse to confront your problem and deal with it appropriately, you must accept the consequences. if he ignores or refuses help with his newfound urges and hurts somebody else, then yes, he belongs in jail where he cannot harm other members of society.
i am a recovering alcoholic. the compulsions i felt were beyond my control and i knew that and refused help. when i was arrested, i did not feel my jailtime was unjust... i knew the risk i posed to others and it was only fair to them to remove me from society for a time. it was the only thing that made me seriously consider my problems and confront them.
Yea, but you live with a belief in moral free-will. I don't and I don't think your worldview should affect my life. If I start killing people and refuse treatment, I want the treatment forced on me.
i also dont think your worldview should affect my life. so i dont think your worldview should affect my life. so you shouldn't get a free pass after murdering someone to go right back out and try it again. cos maybe the surgeon missed the right spot. or maybe you got the wrong dose of meds. or whatever.
if you start killing people, too late. in the united states, that would fall under cruel and unusual punishment. personally, id prefer jail to being forced into thought control. the potential for abuse of that power is too great. so now every weirdo is lobotomized. homosexuals are neutered. etc etc. it's a scary idea. read brave new world. yeah, it might help some people, but it might be used to destroy all unique thought and creative impulses. you yourself point to how most great thinkers were considered insane at first. in your society, they would be forced under the surgeon for being too weird.
In my society? Not at all. You seem awfully paranoid about scientific research. If you developed a brain tumor. You wouldn't want it removed? If you had committed a murder with the tumor, you would want to be sent to jail? I'm not following your logic here. It sounds like your saying, causality doesn't matter, it's the conscious self that's entirely responsible for everything the human does? If you put a human in jail the only part of him that's going to suffer is his conscious self. At least that guy had the balls to walk into the hospital and say he'd thought about molesting children. Would you do that? Anyway, I can only laugh and sigh, because I don't get it. Causality works for starting your car or turning on your TV, or typing on your keyboard. But when it comes to people, it stops. And you plan on being a persecutor, it makes a lot of sense, because if you had my perspective, you'd fail at it. I couldn't do it. Because you know that when you put an innocent man in-front of a heated jury and you do what you do, innocent people will be sent to jail. You have to be cold and hard.
Basically all I know about frats is what I've seen on films and tv programmes and some documentaries. I imagine frat boys to be quite like those guys who picked up borat in the film... or like Jackass. I'm sure I could be completely wrong but when that guy was going on and on I was thinking 'if he was Irish he'd never get laid again'. Now I know not to believe everything I've seen on tv and films
Verona??? it's all surmountable
Dublin 23.08.06 "The beauty of Ireland, right there!"
Wembley? We all believe!
Copenhagen?? your light made us stars
Chicago 07? And love
What a different life
Had I not found this love with you
innocent? are you saying cho was innocent? klebold and harris were innocent? they both committed the acts of which they stood accused... there is nothing innocent about that. you may mean culpable, and that is debatable. for cho, maybe he wasn't. for the columbine killers, however, they were.
yes, i admire that the guy you referred to was willing to go to the hospital and admit to his desires and i would like to see a society more open to trying to help people willing to admit that something is wrong.
however, if a brain tumor i had made me kill people, then yes, i belong in jail for that killing. it doesn't happen overnight, and i should have sought help before someone had to die for my stubbornness. i wouldn't want to go, of course. but i would understand that i had to and understand that that is the price i pay for ending someone else's life. and yes, i would rather go to jail than be lobotomized for my crimes, or neutered. becos once you do it to criminals, like i said, what's to stop you from doing it to gay people to "fix" them? to artists and thinkers who are considered a little too weird? to communists and islamic people, just in case?
we are not like a car. even under your causation scheme, there is simply no way to predict future human behavior, so determinism vs. free will is a meaningless distinction. it means you can look back and guess at what might have caused someone to do something, but you cannot prove it. any number of things might have caused it. and it certainly cannot help you predict what somebody might do well enough to stop it becos you will never be able to collect every single bit of information they've ever received and figure out which ones had a significant impact upon them. it might be sound philosophically, but practically it cannot eliminate the need for jails.
i don't know what this persecutor nonsense is. perhaps you meant prosecutor and that ain't happening cos i didn't pass the background check
well, sort of. those guys in borat were not exclusive to frats and most fratboys aren't like that. it's more a rich privileged white kid thing. most rich privileged white kids end up in frats though, so that's probly why they get associated. however, a lot of frats are very good about public service and whatnot. my roommate right now used to be in one and he's a very decent guy. i think some of them go overboard in college... it's like a club and they get competitive and end up behaving like cavemen. most fratboys mellow after college i think, but when they're on campus, yeah, many of them can be pretty bad.
the girls thing is true. the central purpose of most frats is essentially to get is members laid. their parties focus on dosing girls to get beyond blindingly drunk, then fuck them whether they can consent or not, then back each other up on ditching them if need be. it's an ugly system.