Cause and Effect: the Ahole syndrome

surferdude

polaris wrote:

interesting ... i wonder how you would respond if you were picked on for speaking funny? ... i guess women who are verbally abused should stop complaining also ...

i was picked on for a speach impediment for a long time. Big deal. I dealt with it.

Nowhere have I said not to complain and work for change. Only if you have the emotional makeup to not be able to handle what 99.9999999999999% of people handle daily and instead decide to go kill 32 people I take zero responsibility for what you do.

thankyougrandma

surferdude wrote:

i was picked on for a speach impediment for a long time. Big deal. I dealt with it.

Nowhere have I said not to complain and work for change. Only if you have the emotional makeup to not be able to handle what 99.9999999999999% of people handle daily and instead decide to go kill 32 people I take zero responsibility for what you do.

There is an ugly society pressure for sure, but i also don't think it makes every one who have problems to deal with society killer materials. It's a personal mental illness case, he should have been treated in the first place.

polaris

surferdude wrote:

i was picked on for a speach impediment for a long time. Big deal. I dealt with it.

Nowhere have I said not to complain and work for change. Only if you have the emotional makeup to not be able to handle what 99.9999999999999% of people handle daily and instead decide to go kill 32 people I take zero responsibility for what you do.

why work for change if you are not willing to take an ounce of responsibility?? ... if i was the one who was picking on this kid - i should have no guilt?? ...

again - not a justification for mass murder but i'm not gonna absolve the people who have played a part ... however big or small ...

Ahnimus

Sometimes a brain tumor in the prefrontal lobe will cause people to be homicidal.

Keep in mind that the prefrontal lobe is underdeveloped in people less than 20 years of age, typically.

If you ask me, this is a combination of physiology and the common ideology of society, which is to hold everyone morally blame worthy for everything they do.

NMyTree

Sheesh, I was picked on through out most of my childhood for being short. I had to fight some new wise guy every week and fight the same old two other wise guys once a week, each. Or else they would have kicked my ass every day.

So I learned how to fight well and I eventually kicked all of their asses. Then high school rolled around and a new round of picking-on commenced from a new group of assholes. So I fought them, too.

By the summer after sophmore year, they left me alone because they grew weary of broken teeth, broken noses, bloody noses and mouths, black eyes, bruised ribs, and dislocated jaws; and having to explian to mommy, daddy and anyone else -how some kid 4' 8" kicked their asses so bad.

Then I grew a foot between Junior and Senior year.

We all encountered arrogant, douchey kids from families who had a lot of money. They were more fun to beat up when they started shit with me.

Most of us encountered bullies and idiots who made fun of people. There's a right way to deal with it and a wrong way.

But not I or anyone else went on a shooting spree.

Ahnimus

NMyTree wrote:

Sheesh, I was picked on through out most of my childhood for being short. I had to fight some new wise guy every week and fight the same old two other wise guys once a week, each. Or else they would have kicked my ass every day.

So I learned how to fight well and I eventually kicked all of their asses. Then high school rolled around and a new round of picking-on commenced from a new group of assholes. So I fought them, too.

By the summer after sophmore year, they left me alone because they grew weary of broken teeth, broken noses, bloody noses and mouths, black eyes, bruised ribs, and dislocated jaws; and having to explian to mommy, daddy and anyone else -how some kid 4' 8" kicked their asses so bad.

Then I grew a foot between Junior and Senior year.

We all encountered arrogant, douchey kids from families who had a lot of money. They were more fun to beat up when they started shit with me.

Most of us encountered bullies and idiots who made fun of people. There's a right way to deal with it and a wrong way.

But not I or anyone else went on a shooting spree.

*Sigh*

Everyone is different

breakmarysfall

mammasan wrote:

I agree with you that at some point in our lives we have been bullied or had to deal with some asshole, but I don't think that this is a cause of these shootings. It may be the reason expressed by the shooter but there is definetly an underlying problem there. The majority of the people who are bullied do not resort to such violent actions to deal with the problem. As a kid we might get into a fist fight with the person and as responsible adults we deal with it in more civilized manners but in any case it is usually the person(s) who carried out the acts against us that we deal with not innocent bystanders. I am no psychologist but to me it seems that there is a disconnect with reality with these shooters. Some type of underlying pschosis that causes them to inflict an incermountable amount of pain and suffering an anyone and everyone because of the inadequences they where made to feel by a one or a small group of people. That is not rational nor logical behavior and to simply say that bullying is cause, not that this is what you are implying, is ignoring the true cause of their actions.

... if polaris asks I throw in my 2cents

and I agree with mammasan but would like to add:
maybe it has also something to do with our time?, our way of living?, the pictures we see daily in TV shows, computer games and news broadcast?

Not that I would blame any of those outside influences... I agree with the statement of mammasan: those shooters suffer of some kind of psychosis or other psychological lack or disorder out of my view.

but still: the results and outcomes of those problems have become more cruel, more crazy then ever before.
In earlier times those lost ones may have fought with their fists or maybe killed themselve in silence where as now they do the big bumm for the media and then kill themselves or so.

it's now all about revange, a spotlight in the evening news, or some believe in some god as we find it in the terrosim... but in eather way:
to me it is somewhat of a reflection of the inner awareness and judgement that got formed over years by pictures we seen on screen over and over again and teachers we hear... while those lonesome ones (aka social outsiders!!!) are loosing any moral ground at the same time.
Taking fiction for fact while being more individual every day?

so to me the cause and effect is also related to a shift of moral ground,
that nowadays makes mass murderers out of those that are just alone, hence, not stable, therefore just not in peace with themselves and their surroundings and just not been loved by anyone for too long.

polaris

NMyTree wrote:

Sheesh, I was picked on through out most of my childhood for being short. I had to fight some new wise guy every week and fight the same old two other wise guys once a week, each. Or else they would have kicked my ass every day.

So I learned how to fight well and I eventually kicked all of their asses. Then high school rolled around and a new round of picking-on commenced from a new group of assholes. So I fought them, too.

By the summer after sophmore year, they left me alone because they grew weary of broken teeth, broken noses, bloody noses and mouths, black eyes, bruised ribs, and dislocated jaws; and having to explian to mommy, daddy and anyone else -how some kid 4' 8" kicked their asses so bad.

Then I grew a foot between Junior and Senior year.

We all encountered arrogant, douchey kids from families who had a lot of money. They were more fun to beat up when they started shit with me.

Most of us encountered bullies and idiots who made fun of people. There's a right way to deal with it and a wrong way.

But not I or anyone else went on a shooting spree.

uhhh ... but your reaction is of a violent one ... yours is acceptable? ... what about that kids that don't try and get "even"? ... those that end up committing suicide or what not?

why don't we hold people who are aholes responsible for their actions?

surferdude

polaris wrote:

why don't we hold people who are aholes responsible for their actions?

Yes, great idea. Hold me responsible for my actions, but not for how you react to them. So those who made fun of this recent idiot all deserve a one hour detention after class today. Now can we stop assigning causation to everyone but the killer

Ahnimus

surferdude wrote:

Yes, great idea. Hold me responsible for my actions, but not for how you react to them. So those who made fun of this recent idiot all deserve a one hour detention after class today. Now can we stop assigning causation to everyone but the killer

Causation doesn't stop.

"In the mind there is no absolute or free will; but the mind is determined to wish this or that by a cause, which has also been determined by another cause, and this last by another cause, and so on to infinity." - Baruch Spinoza

surferdude

Ahnimus wrote:

Causation doesn't stop.

Causation stops when you take responsibility for yourself and your life. No one can make you do anything. Period. No other psycho-babble or excuses. No one can make you do anything.

polaris

surferdude wrote:

Yes, great idea. Hold me responsible for my actions, but not for how you react to them. So those who made fun of this recent idiot all deserve a one hour detention after class today. Now can we stop assigning causation to everyone but the killer

ok ... what would you do to someone who tried to molest your son? ... nothing? ... give the guy a detention?

surferdude

polaris wrote:

ok ... what would you do to someone who tried to molest your son? ... nothing? ... give the guy a detention?

In high school the appropriate punishment for name calling is a detention. So let's hold people accountable for their actions. Unless you want to compare name calling and attempted molestation as comparable offences. It seems a pretty invalid comparison to me. But an appropriate punishment for attempted molestation is probably 5 years in jail. So I'm fine if this is the punishment. An appropriate punishment for actual molestation is life in jail.

NMyTree

polaris wrote:

uhhh ... but your reaction is of a violent one ... yours is acceptable? ... what about that kids that don't try and get "even"? ... those that end up committing suicide or what not?

why don't we hold people who are aholes responsible for their actions?

I wasn't get even. I was defending myself. Never did I start the fights. I simply defended myself. There's a big diference.

Is it acceptable? Probably not. That whole two wrongs don't make a right, thing. I'm not perfect, that's for sure.

But certainly my way didn't get anyone killed. When I was growing up that's how we handled things. If you had a problem with someone you tried to work it out by talking. If that didn't work, a fight ensued.

If someone attacked you (or started a fight) you tried to verbally work it out (which usually didn't work), so you defended yourself.

We fought with our fists. One on one. No weapons, no kicking, no hair-pulling, no eye-goughing, no banging each other's heads against the ground, walls, cars, railings or anything else.

Whether you think it's right or wrong, you have admit it was a much more rational approach than the way kids today settle things.

NMyTree

Ahnimus wrote:

*Sigh*

Everyone is different

True.

And it's sad the world (and the people in it) are this way. But that is human nature and we have to deal with reality. Not idealistic fantasies.

But him shooting 33 people and wounding countless others, is not an acceptable response. Nor can I bring myself to feel sorry for the guy.

I feel sorry for the victims of his shooting spree.

Someone should have helped this guy deal with his anger, alienation and twisted thought process.

polaris

surferdude wrote:

In high school the appropriate punishment for name calling is a detention. So let's hold people accountable for their actions. Unless you want to compare name calling and attempted molestation as comparable offences. It seems a pretty invalid comparison to me. But an appropriate punishment for attempted molestation is probably 5 years in jail. So I'm fine if this is the punishment. An appropriate punishment for actual molestation is life in jail.

but now you are assigning responsibility to name calling ... the actual offence is irrelevant ... the issue is whether or not those people should be held accountable ...

he has apparently been picked on all his life without anyone ever being held accountable ... the issue isn't whether or not he is justified in killing people nor whether he is blameless ... those issues have been agreed upon by everyone ...

the issue is whether or not we hold people who were bad to him accountable in some way ...

thankyougrandma

NMyTree wrote:

True.

And it's sad the world (and the people in it) are this way. But that is human nature and we have to deal with reality. Not idealistic fantasies.

But him shooting 33 people and wounding countless others, is not an acceptable response. Nor can I bring myself to feel sorry for the guy.

I feel sorry for the victims of his shooting spree.

Someone should have helped this guy deal with his anger, alienation and twisted thought process.

so true, he should have been treated, specially since he was diagnosed dangerous, but how does it work exactly, they tell you " you're dangerous, go get help"? Then what?

polaris

NMyTree wrote:

I wasn't get even. I was defending myself. Never did I start the fights. I simply defended myself. There's a big diference.

Is it acceptable? Probably not. That whole two wrongs don't make a right, thing. I'm not perfect, that's for sure.

But certainly my way didn't get anyone killed. When I was growing up that's how we handled things. If you had a problem with someone you tried to work it out by talking. If that didn't work, a fight ensued.

If someone attacked you (or started a fight) you tried to verbally work it out (which usually didn't work), so you defended yourself.

We fought with our fists. One on one. No weapons, no kicking, no hair-pulling, no eye-goughing, no banging each other's heads against the ground, walls, cars, railings or anything else.

Whether you think it's right or wrong, you have admit it was a much more rational approach than the way kids today settle things.

i'm not saying your response is right or wrong ... but the point is you had a response to what you considered to be unfair ...

are the people that picked on you absolved of all responsibility in your mind?

surferdude

polaris wrote:

the issue is whether or not we hold people who were bad to him accountable in some way ...

Hold the name callers accountable for name calling and nothing else. Give them an hour detention, the appropriate punishment for name calling.

Leave them 100% out of any discussion regarding the killings. They did not do the killings, they did not cause the killings, they did not in any way do any thing to justify the killer's actions.

Ahnimus

surferdude wrote:

Causation stops when you take responsibility for yourself and your life. No one can make you do anything. Period. No other psycho-babble or excuses. No one can make you do anything.

Accountability only works so long as it holds an operational purpose, and not just to self-satisfy your need for revenge, but apparently revenge is justified in modern society.

"Punishment as punishment is not admissible unless the offender has had the free will to select his course." - Clarence Darrow