Cause and Effect: the Ahole syndrome

13

Comments

  • soulsingingsoulsinging Posts: 13,202
    Ahnimus wrote:
    Accountability only works so long as it holds an operational purpose, and not just to self-satisfy your need for revenge, but apparently revenge is justified in modern society.

    "Punishment as punishment is not admissible unless the offender has had the free will to select his course." - Clarence Darrow

    good call. we shoulda just turned ted bundy loose.
  • AhnimusAhnimus Posts: 10,560
    NMyTree wrote:
    True.

    And it's sad the world (and the people in it) are this way. But that is human nature and we have to deal with reality. Not idealistic fantasies.

    But him shooting 33 people and wounding countless others, is not an acceptable response. Nor can I bring myself to feel sorry for the guy.

    I feel sorry for the victims of his shooting spree.

    Someone should have helped this guy deal with his anger, alienation and twisted thought process.

    Holding him morally blameworthy is fine, cause he's dead and it won't have any affect on his pscyhe either, all it's doing, all it's every done that is good, is made the 'public' feel the cold sweet taste of revenge. But revenge can corrupt the mind as well.

    "There are a lot of myths which make the human race cruel and barbarous and unkind. Good and Evil, Sin and Crime, Free Will and the like delusions made to excuse God for damning men and to excuse men for crucifying each other." - Clarence Darrow
    I necessarily have the passion for writing this, and you have the passion for condemning me; both of us are equally fools, equally the toys of destiny. Your nature is to do harm, mine is to love truth, and to make it public in spite of you. - Voltaire
  • AhnimusAhnimus Posts: 10,560
    good call. we shoulda just turned ted bundy loose.

    I see your still having a problem with myopia.
    I necessarily have the passion for writing this, and you have the passion for condemning me; both of us are equally fools, equally the toys of destiny. Your nature is to do harm, mine is to love truth, and to make it public in spite of you. - Voltaire
  • polaris wrote:
    but now you are assigning responsibility to name calling ... the actual offence is irrelevant ... the issue is whether or not those people should be held accountable ...

    he has apparently been picked on all his life without anyone ever being held accountable ... the issue isn't whether or not he is justified in killing people nor whether he is blameless ... those issues have been agreed upon by everyone ...

    the issue is whether or not we hold people who were bad to him accountable in some way ...

    You can held a person accountable for being bad to someone, but you'd have to blame their parents for being bad to educate their kids about respect for others, then you blame what? and who?

    They can be held accountable for the fact that the kid was unhappy, but not for the fact that he was a psychos. Many peoples are unhappy and commit suicide, that is a major problem, but there's something bigger in what happen with this guy, he was mentally sick, and other than psychiatrist who let him go free, i don't think someone should be held accountable, other than himself.
    "L'homme est né libre, et partout il est dans les fers"
    -Jean-Jacques Rousseau
  • polarispolaris Posts: 3,527
    surferdude wrote:
    Hold the name callers accountable for name calling and nothing else. Give them an hour detention, the appropriate punishment for name calling.

    Leave them 100% out of any discussion regarding the killings. They did not do the killings, they did not cause the killings, they did not in any way do any thing to justify the killer's actions.

    i give up ... seriously, how many times does one have to type that there is no justification for the killing of these people?? ... oh right over 7 million times ... i forgot ...

    anyhoo - i doubt the people that harassed this kid did a second of detention all these years ... if you don't think they played a part ... we'll agree to disagree ...
  • AhnimusAhnimus Posts: 10,560
    You can held a person accountable for being bad to someone, but you'd have to blame their parents for being bad to educate their kids about respect for others, then you blame what? and who?

    They can be held accountable for the fact that the kid was unhappy, but not for the fact that he was a psychos. Many peoples are unhappy and commit suicide, that is a major problem, but there's something bigger in what happen with this guy, he was mentally sick, and other than psychiatrist who let him go free, i don't think someone should be held accountable, other than himself.

    I would prefer to teach that social disabilities do exist in sick people and society rejected that for some kind of moral blameworthiness is not going to help us prevent this in the future.

    Bah, wtf do I know, keep doing it the way you've been doing it, your setting records now!
    I necessarily have the passion for writing this, and you have the passion for condemning me; both of us are equally fools, equally the toys of destiny. Your nature is to do harm, mine is to love truth, and to make it public in spite of you. - Voltaire
  • soulsingingsoulsinging Posts: 13,202
    Ahnimus wrote:
    I see your still having a problem with myopia.

    i see YOU'RE still having a problem with reality.
  • polarispolaris Posts: 3,527
    You can held a person accountable for being bad to someone, but you'd have to blame their parents for being bad to educate their kids about respect for others, then you blame what? and who?

    They can be held accountable for the fact that the kid was unhappy, but not for the fact that he was a psychos. Many peoples are unhappy and commit suicide, that is a major problem, but there's something bigger in what happen with this guy, he was mentally sick, and other than psychiatrist who let him go free, i don't think someone should be held accountable, other than himself.

    it's not about putting blame or absolving this kid ... it is about understanding every part that played a role in what happened ... absolutely, he was mentally ill and that he should have been treated ... absolutely he is the most accountable person involved ... that's not the issue ...

    don't you think that if maybe he was treated a bit differently - it might have turned out different possibly??
  • AhnimusAhnimus Posts: 10,560
    i see YOU'RE still having a problem with reality.

    Like I said, it's your line of thought that's been predominant in society for the last 2000 years. Now you got a record setting massacre and more to come. Maybe it's you that has a problem with reality.
    I necessarily have the passion for writing this, and you have the passion for condemning me; both of us are equally fools, equally the toys of destiny. Your nature is to do harm, mine is to love truth, and to make it public in spite of you. - Voltaire
  • soulsingingsoulsinging Posts: 13,202
    Ahnimus wrote:
    I would prefer to teach that social disabilities do exist in sick people and society rejected that for some kind of moral blameworthiness is not going to help us prevent this in the future.

    Bah, wtf do I know, keep doing it the way you've been doing it, your setting records now!

    bullying a kid in a classroom does not require hours of counseling. in one or two detentions after school, you can teach them more than 40 hours with a shrink. people with REAL mental disabilities (like the shooter) are different. yes, they need treatment. but he was offered counseling and refused it. at that point, he is responsible for his actions. if he refused the help offered, had he been caught, he should have been put in jail. you cannot FORCE somebody to change if they do not want to and he chose not to.
  • soulsingingsoulsinging Posts: 13,202
    Ahnimus wrote:
    Like I said, it's your line of thought that's been predominant in society for the last 2000 years. Now you got a record setting massacre and more to come. Maybe it's you that has a problem with reality.

    33 is hardly a record. worse has happened in human history. this kid should have been in treatment, no doubt. but he was offered that route and refused it. what do you suggest doing then? what SHOULD we have done?
  • AhnimusAhnimus Posts: 10,560
    polaris wrote:
    it's not about putting blame or absolving this kid ... it is about understanding every part that played a role in what happened ... absolutely, he was mentally ill and that he should have been treated ... absolutely he is the most accountable person involved ... that's not the issue ...

    don't you think that if maybe he was treated a bit differently - it might have turned out different possibly??

    I do, people just want to point the finger at other people, but history keeps repeating this same lesson to us. This school massacre isn't a new phenomena isolated to one kid's free-will, it keeps happening. This indicates to me that it's more than just one kid's free-will. But hey, there is nothing I can do to change society, except change myself and speak the good word of determinism.
    I necessarily have the passion for writing this, and you have the passion for condemning me; both of us are equally fools, equally the toys of destiny. Your nature is to do harm, mine is to love truth, and to make it public in spite of you. - Voltaire
  • soulsingingsoulsinging Posts: 13,202
    Ahnimus wrote:
    I do, people just want to point the finger at other people, but history keeps repeating this same lesson to us. This school massacre isn't a new phenomena isolated to one kid's free-will, it keeps happening. This indicates to me that it's more than just one kid's free-will. But hey, there is nothing I can do to change society, except change myself and speak the good word of determinism.

    you sound like a christian.
  • AhnimusAhnimus Posts: 10,560
    bullying a kid in a classroom does not require hours of counseling. in one or two detentions after school, you can teach them more than 40 hours with a shrink. people with REAL mental disabilities (like the shooter) are different. yes, they need treatment. but he was offered counseling and refused it. at that point, he is responsible for his actions. if he refused the help offered, had he been caught, he should have been put in jail. you cannot FORCE somebody to change if they do not want to and he chose not to.

    I thought you were some kind of lawyer, oh yea, you plan on persecution. I guess you aren't at all interested in Clarence Darrow or defending civil liberties and human nature. YOU are intersted in holding people morally blame worthy. Your interest is in exacting revenge upon the scourge of the earth. Do it Batman, but don't expect to save the world with that kind of thought.
    I necessarily have the passion for writing this, and you have the passion for condemning me; both of us are equally fools, equally the toys of destiny. Your nature is to do harm, mine is to love truth, and to make it public in spite of you. - Voltaire
  • AhnimusAhnimus Posts: 10,560
    you sound like a christian.

    It's that kind of comforting mumbo jumbo that gets people interested. No one likes the uncaring truth.
    I necessarily have the passion for writing this, and you have the passion for condemning me; both of us are equally fools, equally the toys of destiny. Your nature is to do harm, mine is to love truth, and to make it public in spite of you. - Voltaire
  • polarispolaris Posts: 3,527
    Ahnimus wrote:
    I do, people just want to point the finger at other people, but history keeps repeating this same lesson to us. This school massacre isn't a new phenomena isolated to one kid's free-will, it keeps happening. This indicates to me that it's more than just one kid's free-will. But hey, there is nothing I can do to change society, except change myself and speak the good word of determinism.

    yeah ... i just think that we are overlooking something important ... obviously, we should treat people like we want to be treated ... but, right now - there are some that don't ... and i believe that they played a role ...

    are they responsible for the deaths of 33 people ... no way ... but they played a part ...
  • soulsingingsoulsinging Posts: 13,202
    Ahnimus wrote:
    I thought you were some kind of lawyer, oh yea, you plan on persecution. I guess you aren't at all interested in Clarence Darrow or defending civil liberties and human nature. YOU are intersted in holding people morally blame worthy. Your interest is in exacting revenge upon the scourge of the earth. Do it Batman, but don't expect to save the world with that kind of thought.

    im not the one with the jesus complex man, that's your department. i dont claim to be saving anyone for anything. im asking you, what SHOULD have been done eh? they offered him counseling, they OFFERED to help him cope with his past, he refused. what should have been done?
  • polaris wrote:
    it's not about putting blame or absolving this kid ... it is about understanding every part that played a role in what happened ... absolutely, he was mentally ill and that he should have been treated ... absolutely he is the most accountable person involved ... that's not the issue ...

    don't you think that if maybe he was treated a bit differently - it might have turned out different possibly??

    Well of course, in the end he was marginalized, insulted and unhappy, my point is, it's just the same for millions of other humans on this planet, of course it's not excusable or normal for anyone to live like this and i think it's a deep society problem that lead in most case to suicide, but this guy, even if he wasn't treated fairly, had this thing that made him snapped, that is not seen in most other person, i can't explain what, i sure don't know what. Ok here's something, they might be held accountable for his own suicide, but not for the fact that he killed many others.

    I think it's easy to blame kids who insulted him, when they just did what many other kids do in this society, as i pointed out, it's the culture that we live in, as long as we accept it and think our capitalist ways and production system work, these things will happen, and humans will commit suicide cause they can't meet normal standard. Anyway, again many will disagree, since they like the current system and i respect that.
    "L'homme est né libre, et partout il est dans les fers"
    -Jean-Jacques Rousseau
  • AhnimusAhnimus Posts: 10,560
    polaris wrote:
    yeah ... i just think that we are overlooking something important ... obviously, we should treat people like we want to be treated ... but, right now - there are some that don't ... and i believe that they played a role ...

    are they responsible for the deaths of 33 people ... no way ... but they played a part ...

    When I was 14 I almost went on a murderous rampage, for pretty much the same reasons Cho has stated. Except I also suffered a traumatic brain injury. One of the reasons I may never have gone on a rampage was the quality of my brain, or possibly that I didn't have access to any guns. I also had parents who instilled good values in me, even though I typically rejected them socially.
    I necessarily have the passion for writing this, and you have the passion for condemning me; both of us are equally fools, equally the toys of destiny. Your nature is to do harm, mine is to love truth, and to make it public in spite of you. - Voltaire
  • surferdudesurferdude Posts: 2,057
    polaris wrote:
    are they responsible for the deaths of 33 people ... no way ... but they played a part ...
    Are you saying, responsible no but played a part? Doesn't playing a part naturally imply a level of responsibility? Doesn't giving a level of responsibility to the name callers make them instigators? In making them instigators haven't you in some way justified the killer's actions?
    “One good thing about music,
    when it hits you, you feel to pain.
    So brutalize me with music.”
    ~ Bob Marley
  • AhnimusAhnimus Posts: 10,560
    im not the one with the jesus complex man, that's your department. i dont claim to be saving anyone for anything. im asking you, what SHOULD have been done eh? they offered him counseling, they OFFERED to help him cope with his past, he refused. what should have been done?

    lol

    Change society man, that's all I can suggest. The alternative would have been to detain Cho and give him a lobotomy or something.
    I necessarily have the passion for writing this, and you have the passion for condemning me; both of us are equally fools, equally the toys of destiny. Your nature is to do harm, mine is to love truth, and to make it public in spite of you. - Voltaire
  • Ahnimus wrote:
    I would prefer to teach that social disabilities do exist in sick people and society rejected that for some kind of moral blameworthiness is not going to help us prevent this in the future.

    Bah, wtf do I know, keep doing it the way you've been doing it, your setting records now!

    sure sure, you know you're too intelligent for me, i can't understand what you're trying to say about me personally setting records.

    If you mean it's useless to talk about the blame, then i say don't participate in this discussion cause that's the point being discuss here.
    "L'homme est né libre, et partout il est dans les fers"
    -Jean-Jacques Rousseau
  • soulsingingsoulsinging Posts: 13,202
    Ahnimus wrote:
    When I was 14 I almost went on a murderous rampage, for pretty much the same reasons Cho has stated. Except I also suffered a traumatic brain injury. One of the reasons I may never have gone on a rampage was the quality of my brain, or possibly that I didn't have access to any guns. I also had parents who instilled good values in me, even though I typically rejected them socially.

    if you had gone through with it, what should have happened? should you have gone to jail? or should you have been released with apologies from the government for taking up so much of your time by asking you why you did it?
  • AhnimusAhnimus Posts: 10,560
    surferdude wrote:
    Are you saying, responsible no but played a part? Doesn't playing a part naturally imply a level of responsibility? Doesn't giving a level of responsibility to the name callers make them instigators? In making them instigators haven't you in some way justified the killer's actions?

    I don't think responsibility is a natural law. I think it's a human social construct.
    I necessarily have the passion for writing this, and you have the passion for condemning me; both of us are equally fools, equally the toys of destiny. Your nature is to do harm, mine is to love truth, and to make it public in spite of you. - Voltaire
  • soulsingingsoulsinging Posts: 13,202
    Ahnimus wrote:
    lol

    Change society man, that's all I can suggest. The alternative would have been to detain Cho and give him a lobotomy or something.

    oh i see. so your solution is that rather than encouraging each person to try to change their own actions (possible) we somehow magically try to force EVERYONE else in the world to change their actions (good luck)? THAT is your plan to deal with mass murderers? ignore their crimes, let them go free, and tell society they need to be nicer to him from now on?
  • NMyTreeNMyTree Posts: 2,374
    polaris wrote:
    i'm not saying your response is right or wrong ... but the point is you had a response to what you considered to be unfair ...

    I had a response to physical attacks. I defended myself. I got stronger and learned how to fight better; to protect my ass from getting pulverized every day. Never did I seek revenge. These were the type of kids who waited outside of in the school yard or on my path home, to jump me or start the fight.

    It doesn't matter whether you or anyone else think it was right or wrong. I would have defended myself no matter what. It's instinct.

    polaris wrote:
    are the people that picked on you absolved of all responsibility in your mind?

    I never said they were. But if I responded by shooting them, knifing them and beating them with a baseball bat; that would have been a gross, unacceptable, inexcusable over-reaction and response.

    Luckily my parents though me better than that. They took the time to teach me some things.

    Can't say the same for a lot of the parents in the world, today. Not just America, but the whole world.
  • AhnimusAhnimus Posts: 10,560
    if you had gone through with it, what should have happened? should you have gone to jail? or should you have been released with apologies from the government for taking up so much of your time by asking you why you did it?

    Ah social polarization, a blessing to humanity. NOT!
    I necessarily have the passion for writing this, and you have the passion for condemning me; both of us are equally fools, equally the toys of destiny. Your nature is to do harm, mine is to love truth, and to make it public in spite of you. - Voltaire
  • KatKat Posts: 4,893
    I'm wondering why people are having so much trouble speaking/discussing respectfully with one another? If an issue is important enough to discuss, surely it can be done without being abusive to each other...taunting is also not ok.

    Admin
    Falling down,...not staying down
  • polarispolaris Posts: 3,527
    Well of course, in the end he was marginalized, insulted and unhappy, my point is, it's just the same for millions of other humans on this planet, of course it's not excusable or normal for anyone to live like this and i think it's a deep society problem that lead in most case to suicide, but this guy, even if he wasn't treated fairly, had this thing that made him snapped, that is not seen in most other person, i can't explain what, i sure don't know what. Ok here's something, they might be held accountable for his own suicide, but not for the fact that he killed many others.

    I think it's easy to blame kids who insulted him, when they just did what many other kids do in this society, as i pointed out, it's the culture that we live in, as long as we accept it and think our capitalist ways and production system work, these things will happen, and humans will commit suicide cause they can't meet normal standard. Anyway, again many will disagree, since they like the current system and i respect that.

    for sure ... thankfully, not everyone reacts like him or else we'd all be dead ...
  • AhnimusAhnimus Posts: 10,560
    oh i see. so your solution is that rather than encouraging each person to try to change their own actions (possible) we somehow magically try to force EVERYONE else in the world to change their actions (good luck)? THAT is your plan to deal with mass murderers? ignore their crimes, let them go free, and tell society they need to be nicer to him from now on?

    Just gotta understand people better, that's all I want.

    NOT LONG AGO, A 40-YEAR-OLD MAN walked into the University of Virginia Hospital in Charlottesville. He complained that he had lost his self-control and was about to rape his landlady, but the doctors were skeptical—and with good reason. The man was scheduled to be sentenced the next day for having committed sexual offenses, and his appearance at the hospital seemed like an effort to avoid his impending incarceration. But the psychologists examining him decided to have a neurologist look at him first.

    The neurologist was also suspicious of the man's motives, but a few things about him seemed legitimately off. When he walked, his feet were more widely spaced than they should have been. One of his arms seemed stiff. He had problems identifying objects to his left. The doctor decided that the man showed enough symptoms of neurological damage that it was worth doing an MRI of his brain before sending him off to prison. They found something surprising. A tumor the size of an egg was growing up from the bottom of the man's skull and was pushing against the prefrontal lobe of his brain, the area responsible for self-restraint. Startled, the doctors scheduled an emergency operation and removed the tumor.

    The man was a public school teacher who had earned a master's degree, had a clean record, and enjoyed a stable marriage. Then, suddenly, he found himself drawn to child pornography. He began trolling the web for images of children, and he solicited sex at a massage parlor, something he'd never done before. For a while, he was able to hide his new dark self, but his desires grew darker as his ability to control them waned. Eventually, the man was caught making advances toward his stepdaughter, and the police removed him from his home. He was sent to a program for rehabilitation of sexual offenders, but was thrown out for persistently propositioning the nurses. Having failed his rehab, the man was about to go to prison.

    In the hospital during the days before the operation, the man was a menace, making coarse jokes, laughing as he urinated on himself, and, as had become his penchant, propositioning the nurses. But the man's personality changed as soon as he came to after the surgery: With the tumor gone, he became his old self. He stopped asking hospital staff for sexual favors, and when he left the hospital, he stopped downloading pornography. After completing the rehabilitation program that he had been thrown out of, the doctors there declared that he was no longer a threat. He returned to his home and his wife.

    He was himself for about a year. Then the tumor started to grow again. As the tumor re-emerged, so did his prurience. He began to troll the Internet again. But this time, before he slid back into criminality, he returned to the hospital. The doctors removed a second tumor, and once again restored the man to his better self.

    http://www.legalaffairs.org/issues/January-February-2006/feature_thompson_janfeb06.msp
    I necessarily have the passion for writing this, and you have the passion for condemning me; both of us are equally fools, equally the toys of destiny. Your nature is to do harm, mine is to love truth, and to make it public in spite of you. - Voltaire
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