Why Do Some People Say, “Church Sucks!”

CorporateWhore

soulsinging wrote:

im not surprised to find you believe this. you and your ilk are the ones who woulda been first in line lockstepping and saying heil hitler in the 40s. congratulations.

Well, no.

The racist part of fascism is what gets all the attention. The rather smooth, cohesive operation of society is what I'm concerned with. I'm not a racist.

Fascism promotes naturalism in political form. What's wrong with being loyal to your country? What's wrong with encouraging all citizens to love their culture? What's wrong with supporting a strong military? One, strong nation that works together is a great thing.

It's the extremist tendency to kill the weakest of their society that made fascism fail. This is why liberty must be protected by a constitution and not a dictator.

Still, our society makes too many assumptions about fascism.

soulsinging

cornnifer wrote:

Never seen it , huh? How about this:

"a guy who confesses his sins, asks forgiveness, then continues to do the same thing over and over and over figuring he can just keep confessing. i prefer the atheists who say "yeah, it's wrong but i dont care" to christians who claim to aspire to high ideals but are only paying lip service to being good"

The author of those words escapes me... but its the type of thing i'm talking about it. Look, Souls, you and i have had our disagreements and i feel like we have peacefully hammered them out and come to a respectful middleplace, so i don't want to open up any old wounds. That being said, your assesment of Christians and Christianity is more than slightly, shall we say, askew, and a tad hypocritical.
Listen, i'll give a concrete example. High profile Joe Schmo cheats on his taxes and you may get one paragraph on page eight. Joe Christian does the same thing and the media eats it up. Its all over the place and it takes about two flipping seconds to find a link to the story on this board. Why is that? You can't deny it, and you can't say it isn't a gross hypocrisy. A guy cheating on his taxes is a guy cheating on his taxes.
Also, its a bit hasty to condemn an entire world body of believers based on your, perhaps, prejudicial judgements of "ten" people you know.

becos 9 times outta 10 joe guy is someone who cheated on his taxes. joe christian guy is a guy who spends his days out in public ranting about greed, materialism, and secular hedonism and pointing it out in everyone else without acknowledging its existence within himself. that is hypocrisy. and that is what disgusts me. not the religion, not the beliefs, not the faith, hypocrisy. i hate it in christians and i hate it in everyone else. including atheists. ive defended your beliefs from the people who are equally hypocritical in their hatred of christians.

as to my quote... where do i blame christians for my ills? i didnt say it causes me any harm, just that i find it repulsive. it is totally consistent with everything i've been saying. the first guy in that post was a hypocrite, the second was not. but i am not blaming them for my decisions. perhaps you misread me. when i say "i dont see non believers blaming christians for their choices" i mean i dont see non believers blaming christians for the choices, hardship or ills that befall the non believers. i hear christians often saying everyone else in the world is greedy, amoral, lustful, etc and that it is those people's fault for the sad state of their world or community or faith or whatever, totally overlooking and ignoring the fact that they themselves are such things in spades.

soulsinging

CorporateWhore wrote:

Well, no.

The racist part of fascism is what gets all the attention. The rather smooth, cohesive operation of society is what I'm concerned with. I'm not a racist.

Fascism promotes naturalism in political form. What's wrong with being loyal to your country? What's wrong with encouraging all citizens to love their culture? What's wrong with supporting a strong military? One, strong nation that works together is a great thing.

It's the extremist tendency to kill the weakest of their society that made fascism fail. This is why liberty must be protected by a constitution and not a dictator.

Still, our society makes too many assumptions about fascism.

yet here you are basically saying that this country would be better off if we purged the society of its "weaker" hippy elements. basically, you're like all the other neocons. the thought of a strong military smacking the shit out of third world countries that have no army to speak of gets your little pecker hard and makes you feel like a man and worry a little less about the fact that your gay neighbor jim wants to marry a guy and you secretly wish you could find out what that'd be like.

kenny olav

inmytree wrote:

I choose not to attend church because I don't:

-believe...
-see the benefit...


I would rather drink coffee and watch the tube/read the paper...if that makes me "ingorant", so be it...it's my choice and no one elses...

My thoughts exactly. Thanks for saving me from having to type it out myself!

CorporateWhore

soulsinging wrote:

yet here you are basically saying that this country would be better off if we purged the society of its "weaker" hippy elements. basically, you're like all the other neocons. the thought of a strong military smacking the shit out of third world countries that have no army to speak of gets your little pecker hard and makes you feel like a man and worry a little less about the fact that your gay neighbor jim wants to marry a guy and you secretly wish you could find out what that'd be like.

Haha, I won't take the bait on all of that filth you spew. Obviously you are full of a lot of hate.

I'm not a neo-con and I don't want us going around the world fighting third world countries. I'd rather let those countries starve and die. No free money for them, you know? I don't think we should be in Iraq. I'd like to be out of the UN.

I'm more of a fan of building our country and making it great. Purging society of its weaker elements does not mean killing. It means educating and building a patriotic country, even if that country has many different ethnic groups. We don't all need to be white anglo-saxons in order to have a cohesive nation.

You make a lot of assumptions and a lot of what you say is complete garbage. You should be embarrassed at how silly you sound.

soulsinging

CorporateWhore wrote:

Haha, I won't take the bait on all of that filth you spew. Obviously you are full of a lot of hate.

I'm not a neo-con and I don't want us going around the world fighting third world countries. I'd rather let those countries starve and die. No free money for them, you know? I don't think we should be in Iraq. I'd like to be out of the UN.

I'm more of a fan of building our country and making it great. Purging society of its weaker elements does not mean killing. It means educating and building a patriotic country, even if that country has many different ethnic groups. We don't all need to be white anglo-saxons in order to have a cohesive nation.

You make a lot of assumptions and a lot of what you say is complete garbage. You should be embarrassed at how silly you sound.

and you make equal assumptions about me. cos im also all for keeping us out of the un, out of third world countries, and letting them fix their own damn problems. im also for better education. but i dont think we need to be beating the military drum and installing the 10 commandments to get those things done. cos neither of those solve our problems. if you build a huge military, sooner or later you're going to feel compelled to use it for something. which is why we keep ending up in bullshit situations like iraq, panama, grenada, etc. we didnt have much of a standing army until after ww2. prior to that, our citizens answered the call when it was a worthy call. then the cons figured out a huge blustery military and constant fear (of communism, terrorism, whatever) was a good way to political victory. and so they've gotten us into one mess after another. you give a politician a toy like that (big shiny military) and he's going to use it for his own purposes. you keep a small but well trained military and he will be careful to only call on it when he needs it. and if we need more, our citizens will answer knowing the cause is just. the lack of patriotism you see today is not becos of godless lazy hippies, it is becos of cynicism and disenchantment with the way the military-industrial complex has exploited and commodified war. americans dont want to fight cos we haven't been sure we're fighting for the right reasons for a long time... over 50 years.

CorporateWhore

soulsinging wrote:

and you make equal assumptions about me. cos im also all for keeping us out of the un, out of third world countries, and letting them fix their own damn problems. im also for better education. but i dont think we need to be beating the military drum and installing the 10 commandments to get those things done. cos neither of those solve our problems. if you build a huge military, sooner or later you're going to feel compelled to use it for something. which is why we keep ending up in bullshit situations like iraq, panama, grenada, etc. we didnt have much of a standing army until after ww2. prior to that, our citizens answered the call when it was a worthy call. then the cons figured out a huge blustery military and constant fear (of communism, terrorism, whatever) was a good way to political victory. and so they've gotten us into one mess after another. you give a politician a toy like that (big shiny military) and he's going to use it for his own purposes. you keep a small but well trained military and he will be careful to only call on it when he needs it. and if we need more, our citizens will answer knowing the cause is just. the lack of patriotism you see today is not becos of godless lazy hippies, it is becos of cynicism and disenchantment with the way the military-industrial complex has exploited and commodified war. americans dont want to fight cos we haven't been sure we're fighting for the right reasons for a long time... over 50 years.

1. The Korean and Vietnam conflicts were both initiated by Democrats, not "conservatives." You conveniently forgot about that. You can't blame conservatives for everything. Therefore, it is the liberals' fault for causing this vast growth in our military.
2. There is no effing way that lack of patriotism is due to "cynicism and disenchantment with the way the military-industrial complex has exploited and commidifed war." If you want to say that, you have to blame Lyndon Johnson who initiated Vietnam. Or perhaps Kennedy before him.

The military was grown to counter the threat that the Soviets posed. Those liberals were right for growing it. The communists wanted to dominate the world and anyone who denies that is a fucking idiot and needs to learn history.

The simple fact is, lack of patriotism IS due to cynicism, but it is due to cynicism of our moral superiority to our foes. Liberals aren't patriotic because they believe that what America does, in general, is wrong. They don't believe that our history and culture is worth being proud of.

I would agree that we don't need to police the world and I'd be fine with saying F you to these countries who want us to come in and "help" them.

Patriotism should not derive from the "mistakes" that we make: it should come from the good things we do.

searchlightsoul

CorporateWhore wrote:

1. The Korean and Vietnam conflicts were both initiated by Democrats, not "conservatives." You conveniently forgot about that. You can't blame conservatives for everything. Therefore, it is the liberals' fault for causing this vast growth in our military.
2. There is no effing way that lack of patriotism is due to "cynicism and disenchantment with the way the military-industrial complex has exploited and commidifed war." If you want to say that, you have to blame Lyndon Johnson who initiated Vietnam. Or perhaps Kennedy before him.

The military was grown to counter the threat that the Soviets posed. Those liberals were right for growing it. The communists wanted to dominate the world and anyone who denies that is a fucking idiot and needs to learn history.

The simple fact is, lack of patriotism IS due to cynicism, but it is due to cynicism of our moral superiority to our foes. Liberals aren't patriotic because they believe that what America does, in general, is wrong. They don't believe that our history and culture is worth being proud of.

I would agree that we don't need to police the world and I'd be fine with saying F you to these countries who want us to come in and "help" them.

Patriotism should not derive from the "mistakes" that we make: it should come from the good things we do.

How can you discuss a hedonistic and selfish society when you yourself are concerned only with your own country. Patriotism to the point you are describing is ignorance. You probably feel really cool by being Mr " Fuck every one else" but we will see how things turn when China over takes the US in ten years and you come begging to a communist country for your future.

know1

soulsinging wrote:

becos 9 times outta 10 joe guy is someone who cheated on his taxes. joe christian guy is a guy who spends his days out in public ranting about greed, materialism, and secular hedonism and pointing it out in everyone else without acknowledging its existence within himself. that is hypocrisy. and that is what disgusts me. not the religion, not the beliefs, not the faith, hypocrisy. i hate it in christians and i hate it in everyone else. including atheists. ive defended your beliefs from the people who are equally hypocritical in their hatred of christians.

None of the many Christians I know spend their days "out in public ranting about greed, materialism, and secular hedonism and pointing it out in everyone else without acknowledging its existence within himself"....because that's not Christian.

In fact, I would suggest that the people you are calling Christians, aren't really.

jeffbr

searchlightsoul wrote:

How can you discuss a hedonistic and selfish society when you yourself are concerned only with your own country. Patriotism to the point you are describing is ignorance. You probably feel really cool by being Mr " Fuck every one else" but we will see how things turn when China over takes the US in ten years and you come begging to a communist country for your future.

You had a valid point going until the idiocy of that last bit. I'll bet you $1,000 that in 10 years China won't have taken us over.

ezekiels_oblivion

Well I wouldn't say that it sucks (I don't want to offend anyone), but it's definitely isn't up-to-date. What bothers me the most is the position of women inside it; that no woman can be a priest or someone in higher echelons of Church's hierarchy. Furthermore, their policy of promoting no condoms to the people infected with AIDS in Africa & poor countries in the world is very, very, very stupid, immoral and well sinful I would say. And their spreading of homophobia and lack of tolerance to other religions surely aren't helpful. Not to mention the pedofils among them... Well I could go on but what's the point I cannot make the Church to do the vast reform.

Cosmo

CorporateWhore wrote:

I am not a fundamentalist though. I do not follow the Bible in literal word for word format.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but you are making the argument that Christians and Muslims would agree that selfish and hedonistic people say that "Church sucks." Does that make either of their beliefs less legitimate? What kind of point is that?

The Muslims are right when they say that hippy fucks prize hedonism and selfishness over worshipping in a community.

...
I will correct you...
I am NOT making the arguement that 'selfish and hedonistic' people say church sucks. I don't know who says 'Church sucks'... I don't know of their selfishness or hedonism... that was your assumption, not mine.
...
The point I am making is really, REALLY simple... The following statement:
"Some people say "church sucks" because they are marginalized hippies who know nothing about hard work or constructive social traditions. They prefer to create their own morality that worships hedonism and selfishness than give their heart and soul into community worship of God, the creator and sustainer of all life."
Could be made by the followers of Jerry Falwell, Pat Robertson, David Duke, Muqtada Al Sadr or Ayatollah Khomeni regarding religion and those people who do not belong to a church.
...
'Marginalized Hippies', 'Selfish and Hedonistic'... don't know anything about 'Hard Work or Constructive Social Traditions'... these are all the same judgemental arguements made by narrow-minded, self-righteous individuals that gives religion a bad name. You cannot convince me that selfish Christian does not exist... that all Christians are hard working... you will find all of those terms you've used to describe non-religion people in both the Christian and muslim faith.
Christians get a bad rap because of this type of judgemental attitude... just as the Fundamentalist Muslims found in Islam.
That is my point.

cornnifer

soulsinging wrote:

becos 9 times outta 10 joe guy is someone who cheated on his taxes. joe christian guy is a guy who spends his days out in public ranting about greed, materialism, and secular hedonism and pointing it out in everyone else without acknowledging its existence within himself. that is hypocrisy.

.

Well, if you think that When a Christian does something wrong it is somehow more worthy of scorn than when a non-Christian does the same thing, then that is your oppinion and you are certainly entitled to it. As long as you understand it is completely hypocritical.

OceansJenny

Religion is a social sedative. It stops people from asking questions, from carrying out their own fates, etc. Its so much easier to say "God will take care of it" or "This is because of God" etc then to actually sit down and think about what to do about a situation.

enharmonic

jeffbr wrote:

You had a valid point going until the idiocy of that last bit. I'll bet you $1,000 that in 10 years China won't have taken us over.

In 10 years, the Americans who might have cared about such things won't care anymore. The biggest enemy of America is complacency.

brain of c

i haven't gone to church in decades.

ymerej

It is not necessary, that if we talk about religion, we talk about church.
Man can be religious, can believe in god, energy...or just in himself...doesn't even matter....because the faith is important and keep things going in the right order..why? because, with some kind of faith life is easier...people are more optimistic...
You don't really have to go to church if you believe in god...
I think that it's stupid. Real religion is in heart.
I never go to church. For me, church is just an institution which is trying to make some money...
for example in my country...almost half of land (forrest, different objects,...) owns church...
Church is just politics. So I'm not suprised when people say that church sucks.

Collin

know1 wrote:

Non Christians on this board blame Christians for every kind of ill in the world.

Really?

I guess we've had 2 different experiences then because the Christians I know - and I know a lot - do not blame non-Christians for things that happen to them.

Do non-Christians here blame Christians for the things that happened to them?

Julien

Collin wrote:

Really?

Do non-Christians here blame Christians for the things that happened to them?

Not me...

cornnifer

OceansJenny wrote:

Religion is a social sedative. It stops people from asking questions, from carrying out their own fates, etc. Its so much easier to say "God will take care of it" or "This is because of God" etc then to actually sit down and think about what to do about a situation.

As a Christian, yes, i attend church (not every week, lately its been sporadic) and i almost never leave without questions. Questions are healthy, even for the faithful. Neither church or religion in general, inhibit questioning.