Ok. And yes my example was extreme but that was off the top of my head.
I could ignore the "un-Christ like" things religious people do if they could drop the righteousness. Just because you believe in a religion, it doesn't mean I'm wrong for not. No one is right.
Except for Ed.:D
I agree. Of course, that goes both ways as well. There are a lot of people who view religious people as wrong also.
I think it's wrong for a religious person (or anyone) to be self-righteous. I don't believe the goal is to put people down....but instead to lift them up out of love. That doesn't involve denigrating them.
The only people we should try to get even with...
...are those who've helped us.
Right 'round the corner could be bigger than ourselves.
I agree. Of course, that goes both ways as well. There are a lot of people who view religious people as wrong also.
I think it's wrong for a religious person (or anyone) to be self-righteous. I don't believe the goal is to put people down....but instead to lift them up out of love. That doesn't involve denigrating them.
I figured you agreed. But righteousness from anyone pisses me off.
The key here is "attempting to follow" (your words). Attempting and succeeding are two different things. If someone is confessing their sins and asking for forgiveness, isn't that taking responsibility and accountability for their own actions? I think it's all about intent. It seems that you judge Christians with a different measure than you do non-Christians.
Nature is filled with imperfections just like man is. After all, isn't man a part of nature. Animals, plants and organisms kill each other to survive. Volcanoes kill many things for no apparent reason. The sun can get so hot (or so cold) that very little can survive it in some places, etc., etc. We seem to be very accepting of those, but not accepting of man's.
...
No... I'm saying if you don't 'act' like a Christian... then, you aren't a Christian, so just own up to the fact and either:
A. Start acting like a Christian... OR
B. Quit calling yourself a Christian.
...
and yeah... attempting is the right word. No one can 'BE' like Christ... but, we can follow His lead. The hypocricy I speak of are things like so-called Christians revelling in the execution so close to the celebration of Jesus' birth. I'm no fan of Hussein, but just coming off of the Christmas celebrations... come on. That shit couldn't wait til mid-January? I know the Iraqis called for the execution... but, would Jesus be so happy about death this close to Christmas? My guess is that the Christmas masses they attended either didn't stick or they figure they'll make up for in next Sunday.
And you're right... I could never call myself a Christian because the way i see it... I don't follow Christ's teachings. And 'trying' to follow doesn't count... it's a pass or fail situation, either you succeed or you fail. Which is why I don't claim to be Christian.
Now, I know all about how Christ forgives me of my sins and all that stuff... but, these are MY sins, not His and I do not believe He needs more crap piled up on Him. I do what I do and it's all on me and I'm willing to take my screw ups along with my good deeds at the end of my journey and find out how I faired. I have more faith in my God that He will see that I'm just a guy in this world trying to make it through. I don't believe He is that guy in the Bible who kind acts like a prick at times.
...
And all those 'imperfections' of Nature... that is life, itself. God created life... and with life, comes death. No living thing can get out of life without death being at the end. That is Nature.
Perfection (or the lack of perfectin) in your arguement is based upon life... which isn't the case at all. Look at Jupiter and Saturn... no life there, yet, they are perfect for intercepting inbound space objects heading towards the Sun, crossing the path of our Earth. That works for me.
Allen Fieldhouse, home of the 2008 NCAA men's Basketball Champions! Go Jayhawks!
Hail, Hail!!!
...
No... I'm saying if you don't 'act' like a Christian... then, you aren't a Christian, so just own up to the fact and either:
A. Start acting like a Christian... OR
B. Quit calling yourself a Christian.
...
and yeah... attempting is the right word. No one can 'BE' like Christ... but, we can follow His lead. The hypocricy I speak of are things like so-called Christians revelling in the execution so close to the celebration of Jesus' birth. I'm no fan of Hussein, but just coming off of the Christmas celebrations... come on. That shit couldn't wait til mid-January? I know the Iraqis called for the execution... but, would Jesus be so happy about death this close to Christmas? My guess is that the Christmas masses they attended either didn't stick or they figure they'll make up for in next Sunday.
And you're right... I could never call myself a Christian because the way i see it... I don't follow Christ's teachings. And 'trying' to follow doesn't count... it's a pass or fail situation, either you succeed or you fail. Which is why I don't claim to be Christian.
Now, I know all about how Christ forgives me of my sins and all that stuff... but, these are MY sins, not His and I do not believe He needs more crap piled up on Him. I do what I do and it's all on me and I'm willing to take my screw ups along with my good deeds at the end of my journey and find out how I faired. I have more faith in my God that He will see that I'm just a guy in this world trying to make it through. I don't believe He is that guy in the Bible who kind acts like a prick at times.
...
And all those 'imperfections' of Nature... that is life, itself. God created life... and with life, comes death. No living thing can get out of life without death being at the end. That is Nature.
Perfection (or the lack of perfectin) in your arguement is based upon life... which isn't the case at all. Look at Jupiter and Saturn... no life there, yet, they are perfect for intercepting inbound space objects heading towards the Sun, crossing the path of our Earth. That works for me.
I was identifying with most of your points until now. If you acknowledge that nobody can be like Christ, but then say that just attempting to be Christ-like isn't enough, then you've made it impossible.
The only people we should try to get even with...
...are those who've helped us.
Right 'round the corner could be bigger than ourselves.
I was identifying with most of your points until now. If you acknowledge that nobody can be like Christ, but then say that just attempting to be Christ-like isn't enough, then you've made it impossible.
I get what you are saying but also what Cosmo is saying, I think. I mean, how hard are you trying to be a good Christian if you're looking forward to seeing Saddam hanged? I mean, shouldn't you be carrying Christ's message in your heart? How long does it take to reflect, to think what Jesus would have done, what Jesus word's were about sinners ... I see a lot of Christians wearing a little crucifix... I always thought it was to remind them of their lord Jesus Christ and his words...
The Sikhs wear a Kara, I was told that one of the reasons they wear them is, if they try to do anyone harm (like punching them in the face) or do something wrong (like stealing) they would see the bracelet and be reminded of their religion.
I think if you're a Christian you should try as hard as you can to be like Christ, after all, you do believe he's the messiah, all that is good etc. He is your example, you put so much faith in him and his words... and you're only going to do the job half-assed?
Sure, everyone has his imperfections, the point is you're supposed to work on them.
With 'you' I don't mean you, just the people, the 'Christians' I think Cosmo is referring too.
I get what you are saying but also what Cosmo is saying, I think. I mean, how hard are you trying to be a good Christian if you're looking forward to seeing Saddam hanged? I mean, shouldn't you be carrying Christ's message in your heart? How long does it take to reflect, to think what Jesus would have done, what Jesus word's were about sinners ... I see a lot of Christians wearing a little crucifix... I always thought it was to remind them of their lord Jesus Christ and his words...
The Sikhs wear a Kara, I was told that one of the reasons they wear them is, if they try to do anyone harm (like punching them in the face) or do something wrong (like stealing) they would see the bracelet and be reminded of their religion.
I think if you're a Christian you should try as hard as you can to be like Christ, after all, you do believe he's the messiah, all that is good etc. He is your example, you put so much faith in him and his words... and you're only going to do the job half-assed?
Sure, everyone has his imperfections, the point is you're supposed to work on them.
With 'you' I don't mean you, just the people, the 'Christians' I think Cosmo is referring too.
I agree with a lot of that as well.
Another variable to throw in there is how new the Christian is. I mean, if someone has lived a very tough life with lots of crime and violence and one day decides to become a Christian, I think there should be a little more leeway with their imperfections than with someone who has been a Christian for years and years and years.
The point is that there should be growth and progress. Unfortunately, it's hard to measure that if you just read a newspaper article about something bad that a Christian has done.
(and for the record, I think it is very un-Christian to have hanged Saddam and I totally oppose it)
The only people we should try to get even with...
...are those who've helped us.
Right 'round the corner could be bigger than ourselves.
The key here is "attempting to follow" (your words). Attempting and succeeding are two different things. If someone is confessing their sins and asking for forgiveness, isn't that taking responsibility and accountability for their own actions? I think it's all about intent. It seems that you judge Christians with a different measure than you do non-Christians.
Nature is filled with imperfections just like man is. After all, isn't man a part of nature. Animals, plants and organisms kill each other to survive. Volcanoes kill many things for no apparent reason. The sun can get so hot (or so cold) that very little can survive it in some places, etc., etc. We seem to be very accepting of those, but not accepting of man's.
there is a difference between a volcano erupting (which is not imperfect to me, only if you're a human and think humans should never have to die) and a guy who confesses his sins, asks forgiveness, then continues to do the same thing over and over and over figuring he can just keep confessing. i prefer the atheists who say "yeah, it's wrong but i dont care" to christians who claim to aspire to high ideals but are only paying lip service to being good. at least the former are honest instead of being hypocrites.
Cosmo said that people in church were too imperfect for him (I'm paraphrasing) and that he finds God in nature. I can understand that, but Nature definitely has its own imperfections and I find it curious that people (including myself) are so much more accepting of flaws in nature but not in other people.
becos nature doesn't need to apologize for its imperfections, nor does it try to hide them. furhtermore, you used a cloudy day as an example. to me, that is not an imperfection and is every bit as beautiful and awe-inspiring as a perfect sunset. nature is simply impressive, it is neither perfect nor imperfect, it just is. this is why there is no need to "forgive" nature's imperfections, becos it doesn't have any. nor does it have perfection.
the difference is people try to hide their imperfections or distract people from them by pointing out the subjective imperfections of others. i find this in all devout beliefs. the atheists who delight in pointing out every foible of religion and the christians who say "no im not greedy, that charity didnt need all that money and... hey look, it's a fag! focus on him!" that sort of behavior disgusts me. sincere ownership and effort at change is good, but i dont see it in most religions. i see rationalization. like the burgeoning suburban churches that instead of adhering to jesus' teachings about foresaking wealth have decided to twist the message and rationalize their greed with teachings about how god wants us to be wealthy. that's what disgusts me.
it's also why i think catholic confession is in some ways superior when done right. the protestant "just tell god you're sorry" isn't enough. it ensures that you take a second, think "sorry" then go ahead and keep doing it. there's no reflection, no change, no amends. at least the catholic confession forces you to own up to it to another human being, who (if they're doing things right) will impose a penance to rectify the wrong done. this works towards a certain public ownership and honest effort at change.
there is a difference between a volcano erupting (which is not imperfect to me, only if you're a human and think humans should never have to die) and a guy who confesses his sins, asks forgiveness, then continues to do the same thing over and over and over figuring he can just keep confessing. i prefer the atheists who say "yeah, it's wrong but i dont care" to christians who claim to aspire to high ideals but are only paying lip service to being good. at least the former are honest instead of being hypocrites.
Most Christians mess up, acknowledge their imperfections and genuinely try to do better (being human they sometimes fail).
Others mess up and then point fingers at the shortcomings of Christians.
Just who is the bigger hypocrite?
"When all your friends and sedatives mean well but make it worse... better find yourself a place to level out."
Most Christians mess up, acknowledge their imperfections and genuinely try to do better (being human they sometimes fail).
Others mess up and then point fingers at the shortcomings of Christians.
Just who is the bigger hypocrite?
i dont see much of the latter happening. ive never seen anyone who was a non-believer blame christians for their choices. they either dont care, dont see what they did as messing up, or dont think them messing up has anything to do with someone else's religion. i cant even think of an example that would fit the situation you described?
yes, many christians do genuinely try to do better. but i honestly feel most dont... they are christian in name only. they show up to church on sunday, zone out for an hour, then go home and don't think about jesus again until next sunday. they lie, gossip, steal, indulge in greed and lust and whatever else, and think nothing of it, figuring that one day a week is enough to get them off the hook. plenty of non-christians do this too, but at least they don't try to pretend about it. they either admit it's wrong and don't care, or think there's nothing wrong with it. i appreciate that more than saying it's wrong, pretending you care and publicly ranting about other people that do it, but figuring you're allowed to do it all you want becos that service on sunday will clean your slate. that pisses me off, and it's why i often find religion far more frustrating than atheism, who at least admit they dont give a shit.
i dont see much of the latter happening. ive never seen anyone who was a non-believer blame christians for their choices. they either dont care, dont see what they did as messing up, or dont think them messing up has anything to do with someone else's religion. i cant even think of an example that would fit the situation you described?
yes, many christians do genuinely try to do better. but i honestly feel most dont... they are christian in name only. they show up to church on sunday, zone out for an hour, then go home and don't think about jesus again until next sunday. they lie, gossip, steal, indulge in greed and lust and whatever else, and think nothing of it, figuring that one day a week is enough to get them off the hook. plenty of non-christians do this too, but at least they don't try to pretend about it. they either admit it's wrong and don't care, or think there's nothing wrong with it. i appreciate that more than saying it's wrong, pretending you care and publicly ranting about other people that do it, but figuring you're allowed to do it all you want becos that service on sunday will clean your slate. that pisses me off, and it's why i often find religion far more frustrating than atheism, who at least admit they dont give a shit.
You can't be serious. You can't hardly open a thread on this board without someone blaming a Christian for messing up.
I'd like to see your numbers or any evidence at all that MOST Christians genuinely do not try to do better.
I think it's just the opposite, but I feel that the ones who do screw up get noticed much more than the many, many who do a lot of wonderful things for their fellow humans in the name of religion.
The only people we should try to get even with...
...are those who've helped us.
Right 'round the corner could be bigger than ourselves.
Because they are closed-minded and bigoted. The church hides behind a book of ancient fairy tales and claims ultimate knowledge and the path to righteousness.
Why when David Koresh says it, it's a cult, but when it's written in a book, it's a religion?
I necessarily have the passion for writing this, and you have the passion for condemning me; both of us are equally fools, equally the toys of destiny. Your nature is to do harm, mine is to love truth, and to make it public in spite of you. - Voltaire
I was identifying with most of your points until now. If you acknowledge that nobody can be like Christ, but then say that just attempting to be Christ-like isn't enough, then you've made it impossible.
...
True... no one can be 'Christ-like' (except Jesus... and He was pretty much, one of a kind)... BUT, we CAN choose to follow Christ's teachings... or CHOOSE not to adhere to them and site Jesus' forgiveness for our screw ups... so, therefore, if we do it again... no big deal.
That's a loophole that many (so-called) Christians use to get around the Thou Shalt Not Steal rule and cheat on their taxes and the Thou Shalt Not Kill rule and support capital punishment and war. Like, if you keep having to ask Jesus for forgiveness because you constantly lust after every girl you see... then, YOU need to do something about it... like quit being such a fucking pervert or accept it as a fact of your character and quit telling everyone else what a great Christian you are... you are not following Christ's teachings... and it is a choice... your choice.
So, you CAN choose to follow Christ's teachings... knowing you will never equal Jesus. But, more often than not... we CHOOSE to ignore His word in favor of our own wants. We all do that... with the big diffference being, I'm carrying my own sins on my back and not dumping them on the back of Jesus so I can go out and commit more sins.
Allen Fieldhouse, home of the 2008 NCAA men's Basketball Champions! Go Jayhawks!
Hail, Hail!!!
Some people say "church sucks" because they are marginalized hippies who know nothing about hard work or constructive social traditions. They prefer to create their own morality that worships hedonism and selfishness than give their heart and soul into community worship of God, the creator and sustainer of all life.
All I know is that to see, and not to speak, would be the great betrayal.
-Enoch Powell
Some people say "church sucks" because they are marginalized hippies who know nothing about hard work or constructive social traditions. They prefer to create their own morality that worships hedonism and selfishness than give their heart and soul into community worship of God, the creator and sustainer of all life.
what a wonderful example of a welcoming environment...
Some people say "church sucks" because they are marginalized hippies who know nothing about hard work or constructive social traditions. They prefer to create their own morality that worships hedonism and selfishness than give their heart and soul into community worship of God, the creator and sustainer of all life.
You can't be serious. You can't hardly open a thread on this board without someone blaming a Christian for messing up.
I'd like to see your numbers or any evidence at all that MOST Christians genuinely do not try to do better.
I think it's just the opposite, but I feel that the ones who do screw up get noticed much more than the many, many who do a lot of wonderful things for their fellow humans in the name of religion.
...
Blaming Christians... yeah... when they are at fault. Isn't that where blame lies... on the guilty parties? Maybe Christians feel persecuted because they are told they will be persecuted. Not getting to put up a Nativity Scene in a Government isn't persecution... neither is forced prayer in Publicly Funded (Taxpayer) Schools. It's more like crying like a fucking baby because they can't get their way.
And I agree... the ones that get busted are probably in the minority amongst the Christians. Most of the people I know that are Christians are nice, caring people... but, Christians do not corner the market on nice and caring. I also know Atheists and Agnostics that are equally nice and caring. I don't know too many assholes and dicks because I steer clear of assholes and dicks... Christian, Catholic, Atheist, Agnostic or otherwise.
Allen Fieldhouse, home of the 2008 NCAA men's Basketball Champions! Go Jayhawks!
Hail, Hail!!!
Some people say "church sucks" because they are marginalized hippies who know nothing about hard work or constructive social traditions. They prefer to create their own morality that worships hedonism and selfishness than give their heart and soul into community worship of God, the creator and sustainer of all life.
So, in otherwords to flush it down the toilet?
I necessarily have the passion for writing this, and you have the passion for condemning me; both of us are equally fools, equally the toys of destiny. Your nature is to do harm, mine is to love truth, and to make it public in spite of you. - Voltaire
church doesn't suck for me. it's a comfort that i can't really explain. i don't go like i did when i was younger, but it has nothing to do with me thinking that church "sucks" or anything like that. as for answers and proof that god exists and all, well, it's called faith for a reason. but i guess the nonbeliever has faith as well because you can't prove that god does not exist. but then again, as far as that goes you can't really prove or disprove anything as far as where everything came from, so i guess you just have to choose the right faith for yourself. if your faith is in science, you have to ask yourself where everything that made science possible came from. for me the answer is that god made everything, somehow, and made it so that the science we know would work.
i don't have anything against you guys bashing church, because people definitely take things literally out of the bible and use it for their own agenda, like politicians. but you've gotta remember that not everyone is like that. and the people who are, well i tend to doubt their faith.
Some people say "church sucks" because they are marginalized hippies who know nothing about hard work or constructive social traditions.
That's an interesting theory. Perhaps they are tired of bad things constantly happening. Perhaps they think it's a bit inane following rules and values for no concrete reason. Perhaps they would rather sleep in. Perhaps they think it's worthless, because I cartainly do. And I wouldn't call myself a 'marginalised hippy' either.
That's an interesting theory. Perhaps they are tired of bad things constantly happening. Perhaps they think it's a bit inane following rules and values for no concrete reason. Perhaps they would rather sleep in. Perhaps they think it's worthless, because I cartainly do. And I wouldn't call myself a 'marginalised hippy' either.
Hmm, maybe the die-hard religious baffoons should be called "children" or "gullible". I was thinking of a way to truly depict the similarities between religion and other fairy tales. But no matter which way I think about it, religion is a fairy tale and I can't make it look anymore like a fairy tale. Somehow I think even if I could, it would just strenthen people's belief in it.
I necessarily have the passion for writing this, and you have the passion for condemning me; both of us are equally fools, equally the toys of destiny. Your nature is to do harm, mine is to love truth, and to make it public in spite of you. - Voltaire
Hmm, maybe the die-hard religious baffoons should be called "children" or "gullible". I was thinking of a way to truly depict the similarities between religion and other fairy tales. But no matter which way I think about it, religion is a fairy tale and I can't make it look anymore like a fairy tale. Somehow I think even if I could, it would just strenthen people's belief in it.
well thank you for your wonderful insights, really. Someday, I hope to be as enlightened.
make sure the fortune that you seek...is the fortune that you need
Hmm, maybe the die-hard religious baffoons should be called "children" or "gullible". I was thinking of a way to truly depict the similarities between religion and other fairy tales. But no matter which way I think about it, religion is a fairy tale and I can't make it look anymore like a fairy tale. Somehow I think even if I could, it would just strenthen people's belief in it.
I'd never go out of my way to piss off someone who goes to church, but I would love to pull out a pop-up book depicting Jesus as an alien and angels as fairies next time I walk past a preacher in the street telling me how I'm going to be saved.
church doesn't suck for me. it's a comfort that i can't really explain. i don't go like i did when i was younger, but it has nothing to do with me thinking that church "sucks" or anything like that. as for answers and proof that god exists and all, well, it's called faith for a reason. but i guess the nonbeliever has faith as well because you can't prove that god does not exist. but then again, as far as that goes you can't really prove or disprove anything as far as where everything came from, so i guess you just have to choose the right faith for yourself. if your faith is in science, you have to ask yourself where everything that made science possible came from. for me the answer is that god made everything, somehow, and made it so that the science we know would work.
i don't have anything against you guys bashing church, because people definitely take things literally out of the bible and use it for their own agenda, like politicians. but you've gotta remember that not everyone is like that. and the people who are, well i tend to doubt their faith.
...
That's good... I'm happy you find comfort in the Church. I am not trying to make anyone question their faith... I'm just trying to explain why it doesn't work for me.
I believe that faith is a personal choice and not something that is mandated... for each, his own. And if that person lives his or her life as a descent, caring and loving person... then, what does it matter which religion he/she chooses to follow.
That's my take on the deal.
Allen Fieldhouse, home of the 2008 NCAA men's Basketball Champions! Go Jayhawks!
Hail, Hail!!!
Some people say "church sucks" because they are marginalized hippies who know nothing about hard work or constructive social traditions. They prefer to create their own morality that worships hedonism and selfishness than give their heart and soul into community worship of God, the creator and sustainer of all life.
...
This is the same thing the followers of Muqtada Al Sadr state. You could be a spokesman for the Fundamentalist Shi'ites in Iraq/Iran that wish to instill good religious structure to everyone... including the conversion of the marginalized hippie Americans that worship hedonism and selfishness.
Allen Fieldhouse, home of the 2008 NCAA men's Basketball Champions! Go Jayhawks!
Hail, Hail!!!
ok so i being a parent of 2 children should do what ?? ..
(1) tell them church sucks that it's all lies .
(2) the priest are all perverts.
(3) we need to go because we can see the good in people .
(4) teach them religion at home ..
i'm not a very religious person by no means but some how i believe going to church once a week would be good for my 2 kids...
Don't teach them anything, let them decide. If they as questions answer them. Keep in mind that even saying "Well, this is what I believe and why?" encourages children to share your beliefs. That may be the least you can do though.
I necessarily have the passion for writing this, and you have the passion for condemning me; both of us are equally fools, equally the toys of destiny. Your nature is to do harm, mine is to love truth, and to make it public in spite of you. - Voltaire
Comments
I agree. Of course, that goes both ways as well. There are a lot of people who view religious people as wrong also.
I think it's wrong for a religious person (or anyone) to be self-righteous. I don't believe the goal is to put people down....but instead to lift them up out of love. That doesn't involve denigrating them.
...are those who've helped us.
Right 'round the corner could be bigger than ourselves.
No... I'm saying if you don't 'act' like a Christian... then, you aren't a Christian, so just own up to the fact and either:
A. Start acting like a Christian... OR
B. Quit calling yourself a Christian.
...
and yeah... attempting is the right word. No one can 'BE' like Christ... but, we can follow His lead. The hypocricy I speak of are things like so-called Christians revelling in the execution so close to the celebration of Jesus' birth. I'm no fan of Hussein, but just coming off of the Christmas celebrations... come on. That shit couldn't wait til mid-January? I know the Iraqis called for the execution... but, would Jesus be so happy about death this close to Christmas? My guess is that the Christmas masses they attended either didn't stick or they figure they'll make up for in next Sunday.
And you're right... I could never call myself a Christian because the way i see it... I don't follow Christ's teachings. And 'trying' to follow doesn't count... it's a pass or fail situation, either you succeed or you fail. Which is why I don't claim to be Christian.
Now, I know all about how Christ forgives me of my sins and all that stuff... but, these are MY sins, not His and I do not believe He needs more crap piled up on Him. I do what I do and it's all on me and I'm willing to take my screw ups along with my good deeds at the end of my journey and find out how I faired. I have more faith in my God that He will see that I'm just a guy in this world trying to make it through. I don't believe He is that guy in the Bible who kind acts like a prick at times.
...
And all those 'imperfections' of Nature... that is life, itself. God created life... and with life, comes death. No living thing can get out of life without death being at the end. That is Nature.
Perfection (or the lack of perfectin) in your arguement is based upon life... which isn't the case at all. Look at Jupiter and Saturn... no life there, yet, they are perfect for intercepting inbound space objects heading towards the Sun, crossing the path of our Earth. That works for me.
Hail, Hail!!!
I was identifying with most of your points until now. If you acknowledge that nobody can be like Christ, but then say that just attempting to be Christ-like isn't enough, then you've made it impossible.
...are those who've helped us.
Right 'round the corner could be bigger than ourselves.
I get what you are saying but also what Cosmo is saying, I think. I mean, how hard are you trying to be a good Christian if you're looking forward to seeing Saddam hanged? I mean, shouldn't you be carrying Christ's message in your heart? How long does it take to reflect, to think what Jesus would have done, what Jesus word's were about sinners ... I see a lot of Christians wearing a little crucifix... I always thought it was to remind them of their lord Jesus Christ and his words...
The Sikhs wear a Kara, I was told that one of the reasons they wear them is, if they try to do anyone harm (like punching them in the face) or do something wrong (like stealing) they would see the bracelet and be reminded of their religion.
I think if you're a Christian you should try as hard as you can to be like Christ, after all, you do believe he's the messiah, all that is good etc. He is your example, you put so much faith in him and his words... and you're only going to do the job half-assed?
Sure, everyone has his imperfections, the point is you're supposed to work on them.
With 'you' I don't mean you, just the people, the 'Christians' I think Cosmo is referring too.
naděje umírá poslední
I agree with a lot of that as well.
Another variable to throw in there is how new the Christian is. I mean, if someone has lived a very tough life with lots of crime and violence and one day decides to become a Christian, I think there should be a little more leeway with their imperfections than with someone who has been a Christian for years and years and years.
The point is that there should be growth and progress. Unfortunately, it's hard to measure that if you just read a newspaper article about something bad that a Christian has done.
(and for the record, I think it is very un-Christian to have hanged Saddam and I totally oppose it)
...are those who've helped us.
Right 'round the corner could be bigger than ourselves.
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there is a difference between a volcano erupting (which is not imperfect to me, only if you're a human and think humans should never have to die) and a guy who confesses his sins, asks forgiveness, then continues to do the same thing over and over and over figuring he can just keep confessing. i prefer the atheists who say "yeah, it's wrong but i dont care" to christians who claim to aspire to high ideals but are only paying lip service to being good. at least the former are honest instead of being hypocrites.
becos nature doesn't need to apologize for its imperfections, nor does it try to hide them. furhtermore, you used a cloudy day as an example. to me, that is not an imperfection and is every bit as beautiful and awe-inspiring as a perfect sunset. nature is simply impressive, it is neither perfect nor imperfect, it just is. this is why there is no need to "forgive" nature's imperfections, becos it doesn't have any. nor does it have perfection.
the difference is people try to hide their imperfections or distract people from them by pointing out the subjective imperfections of others. i find this in all devout beliefs. the atheists who delight in pointing out every foible of religion and the christians who say "no im not greedy, that charity didnt need all that money and... hey look, it's a fag! focus on him!" that sort of behavior disgusts me. sincere ownership and effort at change is good, but i dont see it in most religions. i see rationalization. like the burgeoning suburban churches that instead of adhering to jesus' teachings about foresaking wealth have decided to twist the message and rationalize their greed with teachings about how god wants us to be wealthy. that's what disgusts me.
it's also why i think catholic confession is in some ways superior when done right. the protestant "just tell god you're sorry" isn't enough. it ensures that you take a second, think "sorry" then go ahead and keep doing it. there's no reflection, no change, no amends. at least the catholic confession forces you to own up to it to another human being, who (if they're doing things right) will impose a penance to rectify the wrong done. this works towards a certain public ownership and honest effort at change.
Most Christians mess up, acknowledge their imperfections and genuinely try to do better (being human they sometimes fail).
Others mess up and then point fingers at the shortcomings of Christians.
Just who is the bigger hypocrite?
i dont see much of the latter happening. ive never seen anyone who was a non-believer blame christians for their choices. they either dont care, dont see what they did as messing up, or dont think them messing up has anything to do with someone else's religion. i cant even think of an example that would fit the situation you described?
yes, many christians do genuinely try to do better. but i honestly feel most dont... they are christian in name only. they show up to church on sunday, zone out for an hour, then go home and don't think about jesus again until next sunday. they lie, gossip, steal, indulge in greed and lust and whatever else, and think nothing of it, figuring that one day a week is enough to get them off the hook. plenty of non-christians do this too, but at least they don't try to pretend about it. they either admit it's wrong and don't care, or think there's nothing wrong with it. i appreciate that more than saying it's wrong, pretending you care and publicly ranting about other people that do it, but figuring you're allowed to do it all you want becos that service on sunday will clean your slate. that pisses me off, and it's why i often find religion far more frustrating than atheism, who at least admit they dont give a shit.
You can't be serious. You can't hardly open a thread on this board without someone blaming a Christian for messing up.
I'd like to see your numbers or any evidence at all that MOST Christians genuinely do not try to do better.
I think it's just the opposite, but I feel that the ones who do screw up get noticed much more than the many, many who do a lot of wonderful things for their fellow humans in the name of religion.
...are those who've helped us.
Right 'round the corner could be bigger than ourselves.
that's the case with every major religion, even the smaller ones..sad but true
Esther's here and she's sick?
hi Esther, now we are all going to be sick, thanks
Because they are closed-minded and bigoted. The church hides behind a book of ancient fairy tales and claims ultimate knowledge and the path to righteousness.
Why when David Koresh says it, it's a cult, but when it's written in a book, it's a religion?
True... no one can be 'Christ-like' (except Jesus... and He was pretty much, one of a kind)... BUT, we CAN choose to follow Christ's teachings... or CHOOSE not to adhere to them and site Jesus' forgiveness for our screw ups... so, therefore, if we do it again... no big deal.
That's a loophole that many (so-called) Christians use to get around the Thou Shalt Not Steal rule and cheat on their taxes and the Thou Shalt Not Kill rule and support capital punishment and war. Like, if you keep having to ask Jesus for forgiveness because you constantly lust after every girl you see... then, YOU need to do something about it... like quit being such a fucking pervert or accept it as a fact of your character and quit telling everyone else what a great Christian you are... you are not following Christ's teachings... and it is a choice... your choice.
So, you CAN choose to follow Christ's teachings... knowing you will never equal Jesus. But, more often than not... we CHOOSE to ignore His word in favor of our own wants. We all do that... with the big diffference being, I'm carrying my own sins on my back and not dumping them on the back of Jesus so I can go out and commit more sins.
Hail, Hail!!!
-Enoch Powell
what a wonderful example of a welcoming environment...
Hey know1, this is what I'm talking about.
Blaming Christians... yeah... when they are at fault. Isn't that where blame lies... on the guilty parties? Maybe Christians feel persecuted because they are told they will be persecuted. Not getting to put up a Nativity Scene in a Government isn't persecution... neither is forced prayer in Publicly Funded (Taxpayer) Schools. It's more like crying like a fucking baby because they can't get their way.
And I agree... the ones that get busted are probably in the minority amongst the Christians. Most of the people I know that are Christians are nice, caring people... but, Christians do not corner the market on nice and caring. I also know Atheists and Agnostics that are equally nice and caring. I don't know too many assholes and dicks because I steer clear of assholes and dicks... Christian, Catholic, Atheist, Agnostic or otherwise.
Hail, Hail!!!
So, in otherwords to flush it down the toilet?
i don't have anything against you guys bashing church, because people definitely take things literally out of the bible and use it for their own agenda, like politicians. but you've gotta remember that not everyone is like that. and the people who are, well i tend to doubt their faith.
Hmm, maybe the die-hard religious baffoons should be called "children" or "gullible". I was thinking of a way to truly depict the similarities between religion and other fairy tales. But no matter which way I think about it, religion is a fairy tale and I can't make it look anymore like a fairy tale. Somehow I think even if I could, it would just strenthen people's belief in it.
well thank you for your wonderful insights, really. Someday, I hope to be as enlightened.
That's good... I'm happy you find comfort in the Church. I am not trying to make anyone question their faith... I'm just trying to explain why it doesn't work for me.
I believe that faith is a personal choice and not something that is mandated... for each, his own. And if that person lives his or her life as a descent, caring and loving person... then, what does it matter which religion he/she chooses to follow.
That's my take on the deal.
Hail, Hail!!!
(1) tell them church sucks that it's all lies .
(2) the priest are all perverts.
(3) we need to go because we can see the good in people .
(4) teach them religion at home ..
i'm not a very religious person by no means but some how i believe going to church once a week would be good for my 2 kids...
This is the same thing the followers of Muqtada Al Sadr state. You could be a spokesman for the Fundamentalist Shi'ites in Iraq/Iran that wish to instill good religious structure to everyone... including the conversion of the marginalized hippie Americans that worship hedonism and selfishness.
Hail, Hail!!!
Don't teach them anything, let them decide. If they as questions answer them. Keep in mind that even saying "Well, this is what I believe and why?" encourages children to share your beliefs. That may be the least you can do though.
it doesn't