Why Do Some People Say, “Church Sucks!”

hippiemom

know1 wrote:

The interesting thing to me is - why don't people judge Nature's imperfections as harshly as they do man's?

Why do people seem to think that humans exist outside of nature? Our imperfections ARE nature's imperfections.

know1

Cosmo wrote:

...
Then, if you are not going to act (be) Christ-like... meaning, attempting to follow the guidence of Jesus' teachings... then, don't call yourself a 'Christian'. By calling yourself a Christian and continually breaking the laws of Christ and laying all of your crap on His back by whining about being an imperfect Human Being... you are just trying to cheat the system to justify your bad deeds.
I'm human.. i know I'm not perfect and I know that I'm at fault. The only difference is... i'm taking responsibility and accountability for my own actions and refuse to place all of my poor decisions and choices on Jesus.
...
As for Nature's imperfections... like what?

The key here is "attempting to follow" (your words). Attempting and succeeding are two different things. If someone is confessing their sins and asking for forgiveness, isn't that taking responsibility and accountability for their own actions? I think it's all about intent. It seems that you judge Christians with a different measure than you do non-Christians.

Nature is filled with imperfections just like man is. After all, isn't man a part of nature. Animals, plants and organisms kill each other to survive. Volcanoes kill many things for no apparent reason. The sun can get so hot (or so cold) that very little can survive it in some places, etc., etc. We seem to be very accepting of those, but not accepting of man's.

know1

hippiemom wrote:

Why do people seem to think that humans exist outside of nature? Our imperfections ARE nature's imperfections.

Exactly. That was my point and why I find it curious that someone can see God in nature but not man. We'll all admire a pretty sunset and give credit to God, but what about the many days where it was too cloudy to see the sunset. If we would hold up the good things people do, and not dwell on the bad, perhaps it would be easier to accept each other and religion.

Collin

know1 wrote:

Exactly. That was my point and why I find it curious that someone can see God in nature but not man. We'll all admire a pretty sunset and give credit to God, but what about the many days where it was too cloudy to see the sunset. If we would hold up the good things people do, and not dwell on the bad, perhaps it would be easier to accept each other and religion.

You lost me here. How do you view bad things?

norm

know1 wrote:

If we would hold up the good things people do, and not dwell on the bad, perhaps it would be easier to accept each other and religion.

Could you clarify this statement. I interpret that to say that if a priest does a lot for the homeless, let's say, we should forget the children he molests? And I'm not baiting, but that is how I interpreted that.

know1

Collin wrote:

You lost me here. How do you view bad things?

I try not to view them.

Cosmo said that people in church were too imperfect for him (I'm paraphrasing) and that he finds God in nature. I can understand that, but Nature definitely has its own imperfections and I find it curious that people (including myself) are so much more accepting of flaws in nature but not in other people.

know1

cutback wrote:

Could you clarify this statement. I interpret that to say that if a priest does a lot for the homeless, let's say, we should forget the children he molests? And I'm not baiting, but that is how I interpreted that.

I think that's generally what I'm saying, although you've taken it to the extreme, and I do not think we should overlook something as serious as child molestation.

I think it's more that so many people often say that someone is a Christian but they do not act very Christ-like in certain ways - maybe they gossip or whatever. So the original person will point to that and say that there's no point in being a religious person.

In other words, let's look at all the time a person spends volunteering at a charity for the disadvantaged, and not dwell on the fact that they might be petty or un Christ-like in some others.

Collin

know1 wrote:

I try not to view them.

So the good things are god's work and the bad things aren't? Like a beautiful sunset is god's work but the the freezing cold that kills people every year is not? The tsunami's and hurricanes are not god's work either, but the grand canyon and the Niagara Falls are?

harmless_little_f***

know1 wrote:

I think that's generally what I'm saying, although you've taken it to the extreme, and I do not think we should overlook something as serious as child molestation.

I think it's more that so many people often say that someone is a Christian but they do not act very Christ-like in certain ways - maybe they gossip or whatever. So the original person will point to that and say that there's no point in being a religious person.

In other words, let's look at all the time a person spends volunteering at a charity for the disadvantaged, and not dwell on the fact that they might be petty or un Christ-like in some others.

Sorry to jump in, I'm not sure I agree with you here. Jesus' message was that you can do as much 'charity' as you want; it is good, but it is not the point ('The poor you will always have with you,' he said, or something like that). God looks at our hearts and our intentions for doing what we do, not the quality of our charity projects. If we're doing a million homeless projects, it doesn't mean jack if we're not trying to be Christ-like.

To take the extreme situation as an example, a priest who is molesting children can give a million homeless people soup, but it won't put him right with God.

norm

know1 wrote:

I think that's generally what I'm saying, although you've taken it to the extreme, and I do not think we should overlook something as serious as child molestation.

I think it's more that so many people often say that someone is a Christian but they do not act very Christ-like in certain ways - maybe they gossip or whatever. So the original person will point to that and say that there's no point in being a religious person.

In other words, let's look at all the time a person spends volunteering at a charity for the disadvantaged, and not dwell on the fact that they might be petty or un Christ-like in some others.

Ok. And yes my example was extreme but that was off the top of my head.

I could ignore the "un-Christ like" things religious people do if they could drop the righteousness. Just because you believe in a religion, it doesn't mean I'm wrong for not. No one is right.


Except for Ed.:D

know1

cutback wrote:

Ok. And yes my example was extreme but that was off the top of my head.

I could ignore the "un-Christ like" things religious people do if they could drop the righteousness. Just because you believe in a religion, it doesn't mean I'm wrong for not. No one is right.


Except for Ed.:D

I agree. Of course, that goes both ways as well. There are a lot of people who view religious people as wrong also.

I think it's wrong for a religious person (or anyone) to be self-righteous. I don't believe the goal is to put people down....but instead to lift them up out of love. That doesn't involve denigrating them.

norm

know1 wrote:

I agree. Of course, that goes both ways as well. There are a lot of people who view religious people as wrong also.

I think it's wrong for a religious person (or anyone) to be self-righteous. I don't believe the goal is to put people down....but instead to lift them up out of love. That doesn't involve denigrating them.

I figured you agreed. But righteousness from anyone pisses me off.

Cosmo

know1 wrote:

The key here is "attempting to follow" (your words). Attempting and succeeding are two different things. If someone is confessing their sins and asking for forgiveness, isn't that taking responsibility and accountability for their own actions? I think it's all about intent. It seems that you judge Christians with a different measure than you do non-Christians.

Nature is filled with imperfections just like man is. After all, isn't man a part of nature. Animals, plants and organisms kill each other to survive. Volcanoes kill many things for no apparent reason. The sun can get so hot (or so cold) that very little can survive it in some places, etc., etc. We seem to be very accepting of those, but not accepting of man's.

...
No... I'm saying if you don't 'act' like a Christian... then, you aren't a Christian, so just own up to the fact and either:
A. Start acting like a Christian... OR
B. Quit calling yourself a Christian.
...
and yeah... attempting is the right word. No one can 'BE' like Christ... but, we can follow His lead. The hypocricy I speak of are things like so-called Christians revelling in the execution so close to the celebration of Jesus' birth. I'm no fan of Hussein, but just coming off of the Christmas celebrations... come on. That shit couldn't wait til mid-January? I know the Iraqis called for the execution... but, would Jesus be so happy about death this close to Christmas? My guess is that the Christmas masses they attended either didn't stick or they figure they'll make up for in next Sunday.
And you're right... I could never call myself a Christian because the way i see it... I don't follow Christ's teachings. And 'trying' to follow doesn't count... it's a pass or fail situation, either you succeed or you fail. Which is why I don't claim to be Christian.
Now, I know all about how Christ forgives me of my sins and all that stuff... but, these are MY sins, not His and I do not believe He needs more crap piled up on Him. I do what I do and it's all on me and I'm willing to take my screw ups along with my good deeds at the end of my journey and find out how I faired. I have more faith in my God that He will see that I'm just a guy in this world trying to make it through. I don't believe He is that guy in the Bible who kind acts like a prick at times.
...
And all those 'imperfections' of Nature... that is life, itself. God created life... and with life, comes death. No living thing can get out of life without death being at the end. That is Nature.
Perfection (or the lack of perfectin) in your arguement is based upon life... which isn't the case at all. Look at Jupiter and Saturn... no life there, yet, they are perfect for intercepting inbound space objects heading towards the Sun, crossing the path of our Earth. That works for me.

know1

Cosmo wrote:

...
No... I'm saying if you don't 'act' like a Christian... then, you aren't a Christian, so just own up to the fact and either:
A. Start acting like a Christian... OR
B. Quit calling yourself a Christian.
...
and yeah... attempting is the right word. No one can 'BE' like Christ... but, we can follow His lead. The hypocricy I speak of are things like so-called Christians revelling in the execution so close to the celebration of Jesus' birth. I'm no fan of Hussein, but just coming off of the Christmas celebrations... come on. That shit couldn't wait til mid-January? I know the Iraqis called for the execution... but, would Jesus be so happy about death this close to Christmas? My guess is that the Christmas masses they attended either didn't stick or they figure they'll make up for in next Sunday.
And you're right... I could never call myself a Christian because the way i see it... I don't follow Christ's teachings. And 'trying' to follow doesn't count... it's a pass or fail situation, either you succeed or you fail. Which is why I don't claim to be Christian.
Now, I know all about how Christ forgives me of my sins and all that stuff... but, these are MY sins, not His and I do not believe He needs more crap piled up on Him. I do what I do and it's all on me and I'm willing to take my screw ups along with my good deeds at the end of my journey and find out how I faired. I have more faith in my God that He will see that I'm just a guy in this world trying to make it through. I don't believe He is that guy in the Bible who kind acts like a prick at times.
...
And all those 'imperfections' of Nature... that is life, itself. God created life... and with life, comes death. No living thing can get out of life without death being at the end. That is Nature.
Perfection (or the lack of perfectin) in your arguement is based upon life... which isn't the case at all. Look at Jupiter and Saturn... no life there, yet, they are perfect for intercepting inbound space objects heading towards the Sun, crossing the path of our Earth. That works for me.

I was identifying with most of your points until now. If you acknowledge that nobody can be like Christ, but then say that just attempting to be Christ-like isn't enough, then you've made it impossible.

Collin

know1 wrote:

I was identifying with most of your points until now. If you acknowledge that nobody can be like Christ, but then say that just attempting to be Christ-like isn't enough, then you've made it impossible.

I get what you are saying but also what Cosmo is saying, I think. I mean, how hard are you trying to be a good Christian if you're looking forward to seeing Saddam hanged? I mean, shouldn't you be carrying Christ's message in your heart? How long does it take to reflect, to think what Jesus would have done, what Jesus word's were about sinners ... I see a lot of Christians wearing a little crucifix... I always thought it was to remind them of their lord Jesus Christ and his words...

The Sikhs wear a Kara, I was told that one of the reasons they wear them is, if they try to do anyone harm (like punching them in the face) or do something wrong (like stealing) they would see the bracelet and be reminded of their religion.

I think if you're a Christian you should try as hard as you can to be like Christ, after all, you do believe he's the messiah, all that is good etc. He is your example, you put so much faith in him and his words... and you're only going to do the job half-assed?

Sure, everyone has his imperfections, the point is you're supposed to work on them.

With 'you' I don't mean you, just the people, the 'Christians' I think Cosmo is referring too.

know1

Collin wrote:

I get what you are saying but also what Cosmo is saying, I think. I mean, how hard are you trying to be a good Christian if you're looking forward to seeing Saddam hanged? I mean, shouldn't you be carrying Christ's message in your heart? How long does it take to reflect, to think what Jesus would have done, what Jesus word's were about sinners ... I see a lot of Christians wearing a little crucifix... I always thought it was to remind them of their lord Jesus Christ and his words...

The Sikhs wear a Kara, I was told that one of the reasons they wear them is, if they try to do anyone harm (like punching them in the face) or do something wrong (like stealing) they would see the bracelet and be reminded of their religion.

I think if you're a Christian you should try as hard as you can to be like Christ, after all, you do believe he's the messiah, all that is good etc. He is your example, you put so much faith in him and his words... and you're only going to do the job half-assed?

Sure, everyone has his imperfections, the point is you're supposed to work on them.

With 'you' I don't mean you, just the people, the 'Christians' I think Cosmo is referring too.

I agree with a lot of that as well.

Another variable to throw in there is how new the Christian is. I mean, if someone has lived a very tough life with lots of crime and violence and one day decides to become a Christian, I think there should be a little more leeway with their imperfections than with someone who has been a Christian for years and years and years.

The point is that there should be growth and progress. Unfortunately, it's hard to measure that if you just read a newspaper article about something bad that a Christian has done.

(and for the record, I think it is very un-Christian to have hanged Saddam and I totally oppose it)

gue_barium

Many years ago I found a puppy abandoned on the front steps of a church. I named him Jesus. Years later he died. I haven't seen him since.

soulsinging

know1 wrote:

The key here is "attempting to follow" (your words). Attempting and succeeding are two different things. If someone is confessing their sins and asking for forgiveness, isn't that taking responsibility and accountability for their own actions? I think it's all about intent. It seems that you judge Christians with a different measure than you do non-Christians.

Nature is filled with imperfections just like man is. After all, isn't man a part of nature. Animals, plants and organisms kill each other to survive. Volcanoes kill many things for no apparent reason. The sun can get so hot (or so cold) that very little can survive it in some places, etc., etc. We seem to be very accepting of those, but not accepting of man's.

there is a difference between a volcano erupting (which is not imperfect to me, only if you're a human and think humans should never have to die) and a guy who confesses his sins, asks forgiveness, then continues to do the same thing over and over and over figuring he can just keep confessing. i prefer the atheists who say "yeah, it's wrong but i dont care" to christians who claim to aspire to high ideals but are only paying lip service to being good. at least the former are honest instead of being hypocrites.

soulsinging

know1 wrote:

I try not to view them.

Cosmo said that people in church were too imperfect for him (I'm paraphrasing) and that he finds God in nature. I can understand that, but Nature definitely has its own imperfections and I find it curious that people (including myself) are so much more accepting of flaws in nature but not in other people.

becos nature doesn't need to apologize for its imperfections, nor does it try to hide them. furhtermore, you used a cloudy day as an example. to me, that is not an imperfection and is every bit as beautiful and awe-inspiring as a perfect sunset. nature is simply impressive, it is neither perfect nor imperfect, it just is. this is why there is no need to "forgive" nature's imperfections, becos it doesn't have any. nor does it have perfection.

the difference is people try to hide their imperfections or distract people from them by pointing out the subjective imperfections of others. i find this in all devout beliefs. the atheists who delight in pointing out every foible of religion and the christians who say "no im not greedy, that charity didnt need all that money and... hey look, it's a fag! focus on him!" that sort of behavior disgusts me. sincere ownership and effort at change is good, but i dont see it in most religions. i see rationalization. like the burgeoning suburban churches that instead of adhering to jesus' teachings about foresaking wealth have decided to twist the message and rationalize their greed with teachings about how god wants us to be wealthy. that's what disgusts me.

it's also why i think catholic confession is in some ways superior when done right. the protestant "just tell god you're sorry" isn't enough. it ensures that you take a second, think "sorry" then go ahead and keep doing it. there's no reflection, no change, no amends. at least the catholic confession forces you to own up to it to another human being, who (if they're doing things right) will impose a penance to rectify the wrong done. this works towards a certain public ownership and honest effort at change.

cornnifer

soulsinging wrote:

there is a difference between a volcano erupting (which is not imperfect to me, only if you're a human and think humans should never have to die) and a guy who confesses his sins, asks forgiveness, then continues to do the same thing over and over and over figuring he can just keep confessing. i prefer the atheists who say "yeah, it's wrong but i dont care" to christians who claim to aspire to high ideals but are only paying lip service to being good. at least the former are honest instead of being hypocrites.

Most Christians mess up, acknowledge their imperfections and genuinely try to do better (being human they sometimes fail).
Others mess up and then point fingers at the shortcomings of Christians.
Just who is the bigger hypocrite?