Well I wouldn't say that it sucks (I don't want to offend anyone), but it's definitely isn't up-to-date. What bothers me the most is the position of women inside it; that no woman can be a priest or someone in higher echelons of Church's hierarchy. Furthermore, their policy of promoting no condoms to the people infected with AIDS in Africa & poor countries in the world is very, very, very stupid, immoral and well sinful I would say. And their spreading of homophobia and lack of tolerance to other religions surely aren't helpful. Not to mention the pedofils among them... Well I could go on but what's the point I cannot make the Church to do the vast reform.
En mi vida,
el oscuro me mantiene
cuando yo te vi
en la lluvia me prometiste tu sangre
Estrella de la mañana
Samael te persigo a ti
y si me quedo sin alas
ademas me muero por ti
I am not a fundamentalist though. I do not follow the Bible in literal word for word format.
Correct me if I'm wrong, but you are making the argument that Christians and Muslims would agree that selfish and hedonistic people say that "Church sucks." Does that make either of their beliefs less legitimate? What kind of point is that?
The Muslims are right when they say that hippy fucks prize hedonism and selfishness over worshipping in a community.
...
I will correct you...
I am NOT making the arguement that 'selfish and hedonistic' people say church sucks. I don't know who says 'Church sucks'... I don't know of their selfishness or hedonism... that was your assumption, not mine.
...
The point I am making is really, REALLY simple... The following statement:
"Some people say "church sucks" because they are marginalized hippies who know nothing about hard work or constructive social traditions. They prefer to create their own morality that worships hedonism and selfishness than give their heart and soul into community worship of God, the creator and sustainer of all life."
Could be made by the followers of Jerry Falwell, Pat Robertson, David Duke, Muqtada Al Sadr or Ayatollah Khomeni regarding religion and those people who do not belong to a church.
...
'Marginalized Hippies', 'Selfish and Hedonistic'... don't know anything about 'Hard Work or Constructive Social Traditions'... these are all the same judgemental arguements made by narrow-minded, self-righteous individuals that gives religion a bad name. You cannot convince me that selfish Christian does not exist... that all Christians are hard working... you will find all of those terms you've used to describe non-religion people in both the Christian and muslim faith.
Christians get a bad rap because of this type of judgemental attitude... just as the Fundamentalist Muslims found in Islam.
That is my point.
Allen Fieldhouse, home of the 2008 NCAA men's Basketball Champions! Go Jayhawks!
Hail, Hail!!!
becos 9 times outta 10 joe guy is someone who cheated on his taxes. joe christian guy is a guy who spends his days out in public ranting about greed, materialism, and secular hedonism and pointing it out in everyone else without acknowledging its existence within himself. that is hypocrisy.
.
Well, if you think that When a Christian does something wrong it is somehow more worthy of scorn than when a non-Christian does the same thing, then that is your oppinion and you are certainly entitled to it. As long as you understand it is completely hypocritical.
"When all your friends and sedatives mean well but make it worse... better find yourself a place to level out."
Religion is a social sedative. It stops people from asking questions, from carrying out their own fates, etc. Its so much easier to say "God will take care of it" or "This is because of God" etc then to actually sit down and think about what to do about a situation.
DC '03 - Reading '04 - Philly '05 - Camden 1 '06 - DC '06 - E. Rutherford '06 - The Vic '07 - Lollapalooza '07 - DC '08 - EV DC 1 & 2 '08 (Met Ed!!) - EV Baltimore 1 & 2 '09 - EV NYC 1 '11 (Met Ed!) - Hartford '13 - GCF '15 - MSG 2 '16 - TOTD MSG '16 - Boston 1 & 2 '18 - SHN '21 - EV NYC 1 & 2 '22 - MSG '22
It is not necessary, that if we talk about religion, we talk about church.
Man can be religious, can believe in god, energy...or just in himself...doesn't even matter....because the faith is important and keep things going in the right order..why? because, with some kind of faith life is easier...people are more optimistic...
You don't really have to go to church if you believe in god...
I think that it's stupid. Real religion is in heart.
I never go to church. For me, church is just an institution which is trying to make some money...
for example in my country...almost half of land (forrest, different objects,...) owns church...
Church is just politics. So I'm not suprised when people say that church sucks.
I just want to scream...
...hello!!!
My god its been six years...
never dreamed...
...you'd return.
Non Christians on this board blame Christians for every kind of ill in the world.
Really?
I guess we've had 2 different experiences then because the Christians I know - and I know a lot - do not blame non-Christians for things that happen to them.
Do non-Christians here blame Christians for the things that happened to them?
Do non-Christians here blame Christians for the things that happened to them?
Not me...
2006: Antwerp, Paris
2007: Copenhagen, Werchter
2009: Rotterdam, London
2010: MSG, Arras, Werchter
2012: Amsterdam, Prague, Berlin
2014: Amsterdam, Stockholm
Religion is a social sedative. It stops people from asking questions, from carrying out their own fates, etc. Its so much easier to say "God will take care of it" or "This is because of God" etc then to actually sit down and think about what to do about a situation.
As a Christian, yes, i attend church (not every week, lately its been sporadic) and i almost never leave without questions. Questions are healthy, even for the faithful. Neither church or religion in general, inhibit questioning.
"When all your friends and sedatives mean well but make it worse... better find yourself a place to level out."
Religion is a social sedative. It stops people from asking questions, from carrying out their own fates, etc. Its so much easier to say "God will take care of it" or "This is because of God" etc then to actually sit down and think about what to do about a situation.
That's so far from the truth. Attending church forces me to ask questions and makes it very clear that I have a responsibility to take action.
If going to church made you take no action then we'd never hear about the religious right in political circles.
“One good thing about music,
when it hits you, you feel to pain.
So brutalize me with music.”
~ Bob Marley
That's so far from the truth. Attending church forces me to ask questions and makes it very clear that I have a responsibility to take action.
If going to church made you take no action then we'd never hear about the religious right in political circles.
Everytime I step into a church, I can't help but ask why everyone there isn't out helping people. I'm sorry that's just how I feel everything I hear a priest preach.
Everytime I step into a church, I can't help but ask why everyone there isn't out helping people. I'm sorry that's just how I feel everything I hear a priest preach.
Maybe you should be asking that question everytime you enter a mall?
For me part of going to church is to better myself and re-energize me to be out there helping. Even Mother Teresa slept and took time to pray.
“One good thing about music,
when it hits you, you feel to pain.
So brutalize me with music.”
~ Bob Marley
Maybe you should be asking that question everytime you enter a mall?
For me part of going to church is to better myself and re-energize me to be out there helping. Even Mother Teresa slept and took time to pray.
I have never entered a mall in my live. But if I ever do, I'll ask myself that question.
But you're right. I can't really explain. Have you ever been to a catholic church in Europe? They're all very big and impressive and there are statues and big paintings and golden whatchamacallits. The priests live in giant houses. I went to my local priest's house once, it was like a palace. I don't know what I'm really trying to say here... I can't describe what I feel when I enter a church, but it doesn't feel right.
I have never entered a mall in my live. But if I ever do, I'll ask myself that question.
But you're right. I can't really explain. Have you ever been to a catholic church in Europe? They're all very big and impressive and there are statues and big paintings and golden whatchamacallits. The priests live in giant houses. I went to my local priest's house once, it was like a palace. I don't know what I'm really trying to say here... I can't describe what I feel when I enter a church, but it doesn't feel right.
I sometimes question the priority of spending at the church I attend and it's pretty humble. So I can definitely understand the questioning going on. But then I fully believe that glory to God is seen in a churches actions and not the monuments they purchase or build.
“One good thing about music,
when it hits you, you feel to pain.
So brutalize me with music.”
~ Bob Marley
Maybe you should be asking that question everytime you enter a mall?
For me part of going to church is to better myself and re-energize me to be out there helping. Even Mother Teresa slept and took time to pray.
Every time I enter a church I ask myself why I'm not almost anywhere else. Then I remember that a wedding is about to start and it will all be over soon.
It's even harder to get me into a mall than a church though, so I don't have to question myself on that very often.
"Nothing in the world is more dangerous than sincere ignorance and conscientious stupidity." ~ MLK, 1963
There's more than one kind of church. If one is too gaudy and "materialistic" in nature for your tastes, there's plenty out there that are plain and modest. On the other hand, if you don't wanna go to a church, dont. Its that simple. Questioning why some do, makes about as much sense and is as constructive as questioning why some don't.
i think its important to remember that when Christ spoke of the church, he wasn't talking about brick, mortar, and stained glass. In fact he wasn't talking about any sort of structure at all. He was speaking of people! The world body of believers. They are "the church". The church, as Christ spoke of, is not a building you go to on Sunday or any other day.
"When all your friends and sedatives mean well but make it worse... better find yourself a place to level out."
Every time I enter a church I ask myself why I'm not almost anywhere else. Then I remember that a wedding is about to start and it will all be over soon.
It's even harder to get me into a mall than a church though, so I don't have to question myself on that very often.
...
I see Him in the the peace I find in Nature and the wonder of the Universe. I don't think He gets a fair assessment in the Bible... all that stuff He does to people in the Old Testament... those are things Man would do to people... not God. I believe that the authors of the Bible strapped human traits, such as anger and rage to God. God isn't something to 'FEAR'.
If you want to see the God I am talking about... go to the beach this evening, sit on the cool grey sand and watch the waves crashing in as the Sun sets... or get up early in the morning and watch the Sun rise over the desert... or sit beside a quite mountain lake and and listen to the wind blowing through the pines... that's my God. I find Him in His church... not in that building around the corner from my house.
Isn't that just using 'God' as a pantheistic metaphor for everything that's beutiful in the world. Can't it just 'be' beutiful and a wonder to behold without having to impose God on it? I'm curious what you mean when you say God and what it sis 'he' is to you. Is 'he' just a metaphor or is 'he' an independent being with his own existence.
The key here is "attempting to follow" (your words). Attempting and succeeding are two different things. If someone is confessing their sins and asking for forgiveness, isn't that taking responsibility and accountability for their own actions? I think it's all about intent. It seems that you judge Christians with a different measure than you do non-Christians.
Nature is filled with imperfections just like man is. After all, isn't man a part of nature. Animals, plants and organisms kill each other to survive. Volcanoes kill many things for no apparent reason. The sun can get so hot (or so cold) that very little can survive it in some places, etc., etc. We seem to be very accepting of those, but not accepting of man's.
Taking responsibility would mean 'confessing' your sins to the person you'd wronged, plus all of those around you and resolving yourself to be a better person in the future - not secretly confessing to and being forgiven by a complete stranger in a pokey little booth or a figment of the imagination up in 'heaven' who supposedly already accepted punishment for all of your sins anyway - that's the complete abdication of responsibility.
None of the many Christians I know spend their days "out in public ranting about greed, materialism, and secular hedonism and pointing it out in everyone else without acknowledging its existence within himself"....because that's not Christian.
In fact, I would suggest that the people you are calling Christians, aren't really.
sure, they're christians in name only. but maybe the faith should do something about these people and start calling them on the carpet. i think the chief reason they dont is becos they need their donations, which brings us back to money making the world go round.
1. The Korean and Vietnam conflicts were both initiated by Democrats, not "conservatives." You conveniently forgot about that. You can't blame conservatives for everything. Therefore, it is the liberals' fault for causing this vast growth in our military.
2. There is no effing way that lack of patriotism is due to "cynicism and disenchantment with the way the military-industrial complex has exploited and commidifed war." If you want to say that, you have to blame Lyndon Johnson who initiated Vietnam. Or perhaps Kennedy before him.
The military was grown to counter the threat that the Soviets posed. Those liberals were right for growing it. The communists wanted to dominate the world and anyone who denies that is a fucking idiot and needs to learn history.
The simple fact is, lack of patriotism IS due to cynicism, but it is due to cynicism of our moral superiority to our foes. Liberals aren't patriotic because they believe that what America does, in general, is wrong. They don't believe that our history and culture is worth being proud of.
I would agree that we don't need to police the world and I'd be fine with saying F you to these countries who want us to come in and "help" them.
Patriotism should not derive from the "mistakes" that we make: it should come from the good things we do.
take a history lesson
1. korea was eisenhower's call. vietnam was johnson/kennedy. both were very conservative. in fact, it wasnt until nixon employed his southern strategy that the republicans became the dominant conservative party. prior to that it was the democrats. johnson takes a lot of shit from me, one of our worst presidents. but i dont consider him a liberal, he was as conservative as they come.
2. i DO blame johnson and kennedy. they made war a business, and a profitable one. and it's been used that way ever since. we spent 40 years from 1950-1990 overthrowing popularly elected democratic governments to install brutal dictators. we armed saddam hussein. we train usama bin laden. all for the sake of american business interests. we are cynical becos most americans realize we had no business fucking around in grenada or nicaruaga and most of our international interventions have been disasters. look how iraq turned out, and afghanistan (the ORIGINAL us intervention in afghan in the 70s, not the last time around which was going reasonably well until we got distracted by iraq. btw, i SUPPORTED our invasion of afghan).
we have a record of picking our battles poorly and having them turn out to be embarassments. we overthrow a popular leader becos he's a damn commie (even if he wanted nothing to do with russia) and thus will hurt american capitalism, then install a fascist dictator who murders and oppresses at will. we back those guys. bin laden and hussein are just the tip of the iceberg. so to joe american, we dont know what the hell our military is fighting for anymore, everywhere we go ends up in strife, unstable, violent, impoverished, and hating us. our last successes were japan and germany. so our nation-building is the pits. and since we consistently use it for such purposes, americans cant help but lose a bit of confidence in the justness of some of the causes and our effectiveness in accomplishing our goals. and it isnt just liberals who feel this way. i know a lot of diehard republicans who are sick of the way we throw our military around and im staunchly with them. i dont care who you blame, the lack of patriotism has nothing to do with america-hating, it has to do with our leaders making some shite choices for short term gains and the american people being sick of it. the people in power refuse to admit that we've made some big mistakes in the past, so the people dont have much faith in their ability to make the correct ones in the future. it's the same way catholics are having a tough time trusting the church which until only recently refused to acknowledge it's poor choices with respect to sexual abuse.
the REAL road to recovery is to get people like you to give up on blind patriotism and admit that america isn't ALWAYS right and ALWAYS pure of thought and action. then we can get to talking about what this country stands for and pointing out the many, many things we do admirably, while ensuring that we dont repeat prior mistakes. but right now, the denial means we're arguing continuously about those mistakes instead of admitting them, moving on, and trying to do what we do best. for now, becos of folks like you, korea was followed by cuba which was followed by vietnam which was followed by iran which was followed by grenada which was followed by panama which was followed by iraq... you see the pattern? when does it stop? you admit we shouldn't be playing interventionist, but when you refuse to admit we made a mistake by doing in repeatedly in the past, what does that assertion even mean?
I respect churchs, and what they are intended for. And as a Catholic, I believe we have some very beautiful services, that I love to attend....however, when I am closed to god is when I am in nature. I don't believe going into the church makes me closer, I think a magnificant gorge is the place to truly see "god's work."
Well, if you think that When a Christian does something wrong it is somehow more worthy of scorn than when a non-Christian does the same thing, then that is your oppinion and you are certainly entitled to it. As long as you understand it is completely hypocritical.
how is it hypocritical? i think if people want to espouse ideals they should lead by example, not by "do as i say, not as i do" rhetoric. that's bullshit. i hold the same scorn for atheists who say "christians are all stupid and mindless becos they're judgmental." so yes, if a christian wants to stand in the public square and rant about greed and materialism, im going to hold him to a higher standard than an agnostic who stays home and admits he's a greedy bastard and doesn't care. i dont think what he's right, but at least he's not a hypocrite and out there condemning people for doing exactly what he does. it would be like me giving DARE talks and telling people that drugs are horrible and anyone who ever does them is a loser.
how is it hypocritical? i think if people want to espouse ideals they should lead by example, not by "do as i say, not as i do" rhetoric. that's bullshit. i hold the same scorn for atheists who say "christians are all stupid and mindless becos they're judgmental." so yes, if a christian wants to stand in the public square and rant about greed and materialism, im going to hold him to a higher standard than an agnostic who stays home and admits he's a greedy bastard and doesn't care. i dont think what he's right, but at least he's not a hypocrite and out there condemning people for doing exactly what he does. it would be like me giving DARE talks and telling people that drugs are horrible and anyone who ever does them is a loser.
Once again, how many Christians do you know that stand in the public square and rant ANYTHING? There may be some, but it's got to be a fractional percentage.
The only people we should try to get even with...
...are those who've helped us.
Right 'round the corner could be bigger than ourselves.
how is it hypocritical? i think if people want to espouse ideals they should lead by example, not by "do as i say, not as i do" rhetoric. that's bullshit. i hold the same scorn for atheists who say "christians are all stupid and mindless becos they're judgmental." so yes, if a christian wants to stand in the public square and rant about greed and materialism, im going to hold him to a higher standard than an agnostic who stays home and admits he's a greedy bastard and doesn't care. i dont think what he's right, but at leasIt he's not a hypocrite and out there condemning people for doing exactly what he does. it would be like me giving DARE talks and telling people that drugs are horrible and anyone who ever does them is a loser.
Look, thats just a prejudicial logic. First of all, it would be one thing if Christians claimed to be perfect. They don't. In fact the opposite is true. A true Christian will be the first to tell you they are anything, but, perfect. Again, i think you don't truly understand Christians or Christianity outside of the ten people you claim to have known. Christians don't claim perfection or expect it from anyone else. Christians are really no different from the guy who admits it and doesn't care except for they do care and at least aim to better.
Furthermore, i think you would be a perfect candidate for giving "DARE" talks. Why do i want to hear about the dangers of drugs and alcohol from someone who has never experienced said dangers? As a recovering addict, if you were to stumble, does it make you a hypocrite? Do they kick you out of the twelve step program? Does your sponsor disown you? i would expect you would get up, dust yourself off and start over. At least you are trying, not like the poor bastard who goes out drinking and driving again the next night with absolutely no concern or remorse.
To make an analogy, for Christians, Christ is like our "program". We acknowledge the fact that we are "sinners" in recovery. If we were not, then we wouldn't need Christ. The same as a non-alcolic has no need for AA.
"When all your friends and sedatives mean well but make it worse... better find yourself a place to level out."
Comments
el oscuro me mantiene
cuando yo te vi
en la lluvia me prometiste tu sangre
Estrella de la mañana
Samael te persigo a ti
y si me quedo sin alas
ademas me muero por ti
I will correct you...
I am NOT making the arguement that 'selfish and hedonistic' people say church sucks. I don't know who says 'Church sucks'... I don't know of their selfishness or hedonism... that was your assumption, not mine.
...
The point I am making is really, REALLY simple... The following statement:
"Some people say "church sucks" because they are marginalized hippies who know nothing about hard work or constructive social traditions. They prefer to create their own morality that worships hedonism and selfishness than give their heart and soul into community worship of God, the creator and sustainer of all life."
Could be made by the followers of Jerry Falwell, Pat Robertson, David Duke, Muqtada Al Sadr or Ayatollah Khomeni regarding religion and those people who do not belong to a church.
...
'Marginalized Hippies', 'Selfish and Hedonistic'... don't know anything about 'Hard Work or Constructive Social Traditions'... these are all the same judgemental arguements made by narrow-minded, self-righteous individuals that gives religion a bad name. You cannot convince me that selfish Christian does not exist... that all Christians are hard working... you will find all of those terms you've used to describe non-religion people in both the Christian and muslim faith.
Christians get a bad rap because of this type of judgemental attitude... just as the Fundamentalist Muslims found in Islam.
That is my point.
Hail, Hail!!!
Well, if you think that When a Christian does something wrong it is somehow more worthy of scorn than when a non-Christian does the same thing, then that is your oppinion and you are certainly entitled to it. As long as you understand it is completely hypocritical.
In 10 years, the Americans who might have cared about such things won't care anymore. The biggest enemy of America is complacency.
old music: http://www.myspace.com/slowloader
http://www.myspace.com/brain_of_c
Man can be religious, can believe in god, energy...or just in himself...doesn't even matter....because the faith is important and keep things going in the right order..why? because, with some kind of faith life is easier...people are more optimistic...
You don't really have to go to church if you believe in god...
I think that it's stupid. Real religion is in heart.
I never go to church. For me, church is just an institution which is trying to make some money...
for example in my country...almost half of land (forrest, different objects,...) owns church...
Church is just politics. So I'm not suprised when people say that church sucks.
...hello!!!
My god its been six years...
never dreamed...
...you'd return.
Really?
Do non-Christians here blame Christians for the things that happened to them?
naděje umírá poslední
Not me...
2007: Copenhagen, Werchter
2009: Rotterdam, London
2010: MSG, Arras, Werchter
2012: Amsterdam, Prague, Berlin
2014: Amsterdam, Stockholm
As a Christian, yes, i attend church (not every week, lately its been sporadic) and i almost never leave without questions. Questions are healthy, even for the faithful. Neither church or religion in general, inhibit questioning.
http://www.wishlistfoundation.org
Oh my, they dropped the leash.
Morgan Freeman/Clint Eastwood 08' for President!
"Make our day"
If going to church made you take no action then we'd never hear about the religious right in political circles.
when it hits you, you feel to pain.
So brutalize me with music.”
~ Bob Marley
Everytime I step into a church, I can't help but ask why everyone there isn't out helping people. I'm sorry that's just how I feel everything I hear a priest preach.
naděje umírá poslední
For me part of going to church is to better myself and re-energize me to be out there helping. Even Mother Teresa slept and took time to pray.
when it hits you, you feel to pain.
So brutalize me with music.”
~ Bob Marley
I have never entered a mall in my live. But if I ever do, I'll ask myself that question.
But you're right. I can't really explain. Have you ever been to a catholic church in Europe? They're all very big and impressive and there are statues and big paintings and golden whatchamacallits. The priests live in giant houses. I went to my local priest's house once, it was like a palace. I don't know what I'm really trying to say here... I can't describe what I feel when I enter a church, but it doesn't feel right.
naděje umírá poslední
when it hits you, you feel to pain.
So brutalize me with music.”
~ Bob Marley
It's even harder to get me into a mall than a church though, so I don't have to question myself on that very often.
www.myspace.com/jensvad
hypocrisy?;):D
I think people are disrespectful in their comments, not closed-minded.
I have to go to church today, it's a funeral.
naděje umírá poslední
Isn't that just using 'God' as a pantheistic metaphor for everything that's beutiful in the world. Can't it just 'be' beutiful and a wonder to behold without having to impose God on it? I'm curious what you mean when you say God and what it sis 'he' is to you. Is 'he' just a metaphor or is 'he' an independent being with his own existence.
Not trying to provoke an argument - just curious
Taking responsibility would mean 'confessing' your sins to the person you'd wronged, plus all of those around you and resolving yourself to be a better person in the future - not secretly confessing to and being forgiven by a complete stranger in a pokey little booth or a figment of the imagination up in 'heaven' who supposedly already accepted punishment for all of your sins anyway - that's the complete abdication of responsibility.
sure, they're christians in name only. but maybe the faith should do something about these people and start calling them on the carpet. i think the chief reason they dont is becos they need their donations, which brings us back to money making the world go round.
take a history lesson
1. korea was eisenhower's call. vietnam was johnson/kennedy. both were very conservative. in fact, it wasnt until nixon employed his southern strategy that the republicans became the dominant conservative party. prior to that it was the democrats. johnson takes a lot of shit from me, one of our worst presidents. but i dont consider him a liberal, he was as conservative as they come.
2. i DO blame johnson and kennedy. they made war a business, and a profitable one. and it's been used that way ever since. we spent 40 years from 1950-1990 overthrowing popularly elected democratic governments to install brutal dictators. we armed saddam hussein. we train usama bin laden. all for the sake of american business interests. we are cynical becos most americans realize we had no business fucking around in grenada or nicaruaga and most of our international interventions have been disasters. look how iraq turned out, and afghanistan (the ORIGINAL us intervention in afghan in the 70s, not the last time around which was going reasonably well until we got distracted by iraq. btw, i SUPPORTED our invasion of afghan).
we have a record of picking our battles poorly and having them turn out to be embarassments. we overthrow a popular leader becos he's a damn commie (even if he wanted nothing to do with russia) and thus will hurt american capitalism, then install a fascist dictator who murders and oppresses at will. we back those guys. bin laden and hussein are just the tip of the iceberg. so to joe american, we dont know what the hell our military is fighting for anymore, everywhere we go ends up in strife, unstable, violent, impoverished, and hating us. our last successes were japan and germany. so our nation-building is the pits. and since we consistently use it for such purposes, americans cant help but lose a bit of confidence in the justness of some of the causes and our effectiveness in accomplishing our goals. and it isnt just liberals who feel this way. i know a lot of diehard republicans who are sick of the way we throw our military around and im staunchly with them. i dont care who you blame, the lack of patriotism has nothing to do with america-hating, it has to do with our leaders making some shite choices for short term gains and the american people being sick of it. the people in power refuse to admit that we've made some big mistakes in the past, so the people dont have much faith in their ability to make the correct ones in the future. it's the same way catholics are having a tough time trusting the church which until only recently refused to acknowledge it's poor choices with respect to sexual abuse.
the REAL road to recovery is to get people like you to give up on blind patriotism and admit that america isn't ALWAYS right and ALWAYS pure of thought and action. then we can get to talking about what this country stands for and pointing out the many, many things we do admirably, while ensuring that we dont repeat prior mistakes. but right now, the denial means we're arguing continuously about those mistakes instead of admitting them, moving on, and trying to do what we do best. for now, becos of folks like you, korea was followed by cuba which was followed by vietnam which was followed by iran which was followed by grenada which was followed by panama which was followed by iraq... you see the pattern? when does it stop? you admit we shouldn't be playing interventionist, but when you refuse to admit we made a mistake by doing in repeatedly in the past, what does that assertion even mean?
how is it hypocritical? i think if people want to espouse ideals they should lead by example, not by "do as i say, not as i do" rhetoric. that's bullshit. i hold the same scorn for atheists who say "christians are all stupid and mindless becos they're judgmental." so yes, if a christian wants to stand in the public square and rant about greed and materialism, im going to hold him to a higher standard than an agnostic who stays home and admits he's a greedy bastard and doesn't care. i dont think what he's right, but at least he's not a hypocrite and out there condemning people for doing exactly what he does. it would be like me giving DARE talks and telling people that drugs are horrible and anyone who ever does them is a loser.
Once again, how many Christians do you know that stand in the public square and rant ANYTHING? There may be some, but it's got to be a fractional percentage.
...are those who've helped us.
Right 'round the corner could be bigger than ourselves.
Look, thats just a prejudicial logic. First of all, it would be one thing if Christians claimed to be perfect. They don't. In fact the opposite is true. A true Christian will be the first to tell you they are anything, but, perfect. Again, i think you don't truly understand Christians or Christianity outside of the ten people you claim to have known. Christians don't claim perfection or expect it from anyone else. Christians are really no different from the guy who admits it and doesn't care except for they do care and at least aim to better.
Furthermore, i think you would be a perfect candidate for giving "DARE" talks. Why do i want to hear about the dangers of drugs and alcohol from someone who has never experienced said dangers? As a recovering addict, if you were to stumble, does it make you a hypocrite? Do they kick you out of the twelve step program? Does your sponsor disown you? i would expect you would get up, dust yourself off and start over. At least you are trying, not like the poor bastard who goes out drinking and driving again the next night with absolutely no concern or remorse.
To make an analogy, for Christians, Christ is like our "program". We acknowledge the fact that we are "sinners" in recovery.