11/9/2001 - 11/9/2006, number of victims (source: the guardian, 11/9/2006)
number of victims of "terror attacks": 4.319
number of killed on "war on terror": 92.469
numbers refer to civilians killed and include the israel/palestine and israel/lebanon conflicts
nice way to remember those who lost their lives today, 9/11....with a propaganda riddled speech...justifying the war....
all in the name of 9/11...
disgusting...:mad:
only caught about 10 min of it but i liked the part where he spoke about the terrorists shaking at the thought of someone voting...
:rolleyes:
standin above the crowd
he had a voice that was strong and loud and
i swallowed his facade cos i'm so
eager to identify with
someone above the crowd
someone who seemed to feel the same
someone prepared to lead the way
after he mentioned the women who lost her husband in the WTC, i couldn't help but think of the ??,000 families that are facing the same thing in iraq right now. the whole thing is a clusterfuck, and it sucks that he used 9-11 as a crutch, as he always has in any speech he gives, to somehow connect the war to that tragic event...seriously, we have no concept of whats going on over there, and if we did, we would get out asap. over 100 people die a day gang...think about it.
Now now those iraqi's lives are not as important as american lives.
Keep on rockin in the free world!!!!
The economy has polarized to the point where the wealthiest 10% now own 85% of the nation’s wealth. Never before have the bottom 90% been so highly indebted, so dependent on the wealthy.
This thread has done a WONDERFUL job of illustrating how the right is engaging with reality, where we are today, while the left is at war with Bush, living in 2003, and cannot move past the decision to go into Iraq.
And you ask me what I want this year
And I try to make this kind and clear
Just a chance that maybe we'll find better days
Cuz I don't need boxes wrapped in strings
And desire and love and empty things
Just a chance that maybe we'll find better days
only caught about 10 min of it but i liked the part where he spoke about the terrorists shaking at the thought of someone voting...
:rolleyes:
that cracked me up, too....
I guess my point in starting this thread was: It was pretty sad that bush used the 5th aniversary of 9/11 as a pulpit to push his agenda...I think it was disrespectful to the families who lost on that day...
also, he mentioned "freedom" about 100 times...and yet, people are advocating profiling and supporting warrentless wire taps...how is that "freedom"....?
only caught about 10 min of it but i liked the part where he spoke about the terrorists shaking at the thought of someone voting...
:rolleyes:
well, they do try to prevent people from voting by killing them. talk about "stealing" elections.
And you ask me what I want this year
And I try to make this kind and clear
Just a chance that maybe we'll find better days
Cuz I don't need boxes wrapped in strings
And desire and love and empty things
Just a chance that maybe we'll find better days
This thread has done a WONDERFUL job of illustrating how the right is engaging with reality, where we are today, while the left is at war with Bush, living in 2003, and cannot move past the decision to go into Iraq.
what makes you think your "reality" is right...while the other side is wrong...?
I believe your version of "reality" is supported by 30 to 35% of this country...
I guess my point in starting this thread was: It was pretty sad that bush used the 5th aniversary of 9/11 as a pulpit to push his agenda...I think it was disrespectful to the families who lost on that day...
also, he mentioned "freedom" about 100 times...and yet, people are advocating profiling and supporting warrentless wire taps...how is that "freedom"....?
How was it disrespectful? Can you offer any specifics? 9/11 was a terrorist act perpetrated by a group of people. He used the 5th anniversary to hightlight this point, and to say these people still threaten to perform similar attacks in the future. It's not pushing his agenda, its talking about reality.
AGAIN...it was not a natural disaster.
And you ask me what I want this year
And I try to make this kind and clear
Just a chance that maybe we'll find better days
Cuz I don't need boxes wrapped in strings
And desire and love and empty things
Just a chance that maybe we'll find better days
I believe your version of "reality" is supported by 30 to 35% of this country...
that's because you are obsessed with Iraq, and those poll numbers reflect sentiment towards Iraq, NOT national security.
And you ask me what I want this year
And I try to make this kind and clear
Just a chance that maybe we'll find better days
Cuz I don't need boxes wrapped in strings
And desire and love and empty things
Just a chance that maybe we'll find better days
This thread has done a WONDERFUL job of illustrating how the right is engaging with reality, where we are today, while the left is at war with Bush, living in 2003, and cannot move past the decision to go into Iraq.
Reality dude????? The reality is that the war on terror is in Iraq according to Bush. Why do u ignore that. Stop listening to bill oreilly and look with your own eyes at whats going on.
Yeah that pretty much applies to wars of history. But damnit, that only applies when your leaders drag you into war....not when the enemy does. Come on, you can't apply the logic of all the wars that leaders dragged their people into for power and greed and compare that with this war we apparently have with Islamic terrorists.
There has to be something said for protecting yourself, your country, your family, your constitution. Believe me, I am not going to form my political views on the 10club newsletter. I will consider it, but not bow to a rock band made up of guys that didn't graduate from high school.
Eddie, I love you man
You are confusing Irak with the war against Islamic Terrorist. We were draged into a war. Irak had nothing to do with Al Qaeda and their Islamic Jihad. Also this so called war on terror has been going on way before 911 we just werent paying attention.
Great commentary by Keith Olbermann directed at Bush....again as with his words to Rummy, it is too well spoken for the Right to understand, or take the time to digest:
Click on the video "This Hole in the Ground" or you can read it:
we all know we went into Iraq with flase information. I dont hold bush exclusively responsible for that. there is alot that went into the decision that I will never know. If I could go back, I probably would not have agreed to go into Iraq. but guess what we cant go back. Since we have gone in and removed Saddam, el queda has moved in. now we have no choice but to stay and fight them. we can not run, freedom is a good thing, even for a country that doesnt know it wants it yet.
i'm still convinced muslims do not want freedom. but thats another topic.
good speech from bush, made me proud to be an american. I'm on our side. most people here are not.
good speech from bush, made me proud to be an american. I'm on our side. most people here are not.
"Our side"?!?!?!?
Do you have ANY concept of what a democracy is? You talk about "freedom" and then in the same post draw a line as to who are American's and who are not based on people's opinions and the fact that a lot of people disagree with the current administration. We are all on America's side, differing opinions is the point of a democracy.
Do you have ANY concept of what a democracy is? You talk about "freedom" and then in the same post draw a line as to who are American's and who are not based on people's opinions and the fact that a lot of people disagree with the current administration. We are all on America's side, differing opinions is the point of a democracy.
It is scary how naive some people can be....
disagree all you want. most people, even americans, hate america. thats what i'm refering too.
How was it disrespectful? Can you offer any specifics? 9/11 was a terrorist act perpetrated by a group of people. He used the 5th anniversary to hightlight this point, and to say these people still threaten to perform similar attacks in the future. It's not pushing his agenda, its talking about reality.
AGAIN...it was not a natural disaster.
question: did you actully see the speech...?
as for offering specifics, I did...re-read the post you quoted...I was clear...
we all know we went into Iraq with flase information. I dont hold bush exclusively responsible for that. there is alot that went into the decision that I will never know. If I could go back, I probably would not have agreed to go into Iraq. but guess what we cant go back. Since we have gone in and removed Saddam, el queda has moved in. now we have no choice but to stay and fight them. we can not run, freedom is a good thing, even for a country that doesnt know it wants it yet.
i'm still convinced muslims do not want freedom. but thats another topic.
good speech from bush, made me proud to be an american. I'm on our side. most people here are not.
"Freedom is a good thing, even for a country that doesn't know it wants it yet"....talk about being on a very very high horse.....fact: Not everyone wants "Americanized" style freedom.....Muslims do want freedom if you knew some history that would be obvious to you....do you realize before 99% of people here knew who Al Queda was (pre 9/11) they were waging "inner" war on normal Muslims inside countries like Egypt and Algeria for being "free" for years...more along the lines of going against Islamic Koran convention....however the populace fought back and resulted in the diminishing of this group and sending them outside their borders.....pre 9/11 Al Queda was at minimum popularity in the Muslim world....well more exactly pre-Iraq.....
Al Queda went global on 9/11 to pick a fight...they got EXACTLY what they wanted from the USA....retaliation...America fell for the biggest gag ever....they went to war with this group and suddenly, and Iraq is the main example, showed the common Muslim man (which is 99% of the Islamic group...we will leave 1% as Fundanutalists) that maybe their nut preachings about the "Great Satan" were true......America came in bombing and never looked back....we all know civilian deaths over there are enormous and suddenly the Great Satan is indeed looking like that....Al Queda and other fundanutalists are unfortunatly gaining momentum because America, unknowingly due to the quick desire for revenge, has only shown the common Muslim man that Al Queda was correct.....
America has failed in this war by not winning the common Muslim man...instead they have turned the common Muslim man over there into its enemy.....
I ask what holds you back from cutting and running....your love for the Iraqi's (where were you then when the Kurds got gassed? Yeah I guess you didn't care then about freedom) or is it your patriotic pride that will not allow you to admit defeat.....?
Pride is a good thing...too much can lead to mistake after mistake.....to win the war on terror you will have to win over the common man and that isn't done through emotionless apologies "sorry we thought your house sheltered terrorists" but through diplomacy and the aiding in building of a free country.....
Because this wasn't an isolated incident. (see WTC in 1993, the Cole, etc.) I don't advocate warring with people that look like him, I do support warring with people (and nations that support these people) who share his beliefs. The point is, he was calling a terrorist act a terrorist act. Also, terrorism is a tactic used by political movements...so by it's nature, the event is open to "politicizing." Again, it wasn't a natural disaster.
On Nov. 20, 1999, the Daily Telegraph admitted, following the release of the U.S. State Department's updated list of Foreign Terrorist Organizations, that "Britain is now an international center for Islamic militancy on a huge scale . . . and the capital is the home to a bewildering variety of radical Islamic fundamentalist movements, many of which make no secret of their commitment to violence and terrorism to achieve their goals."
...
Groups banned by United States
are headquartered in London
Shortly before the Luxor massacre, on Oct. 8, 1997, the U.S. State Department, in compliance with the Anti-Terrorism Act of 1996, released a list of 30 Foreign Terrorist Organizations (FTOs), banned from operating on U.S. soil.
Of the 30 groups named, six maintain headquarters in Britain. They are: the Islamic Group (Egypt), Al-Jihad (Egypt), Hamas (Israel, Palestinian Authority), Armed Islamic Group (Algeria, France), Kurdish Workers Party (Turkey), and the Liberation Tigers of Tamil Eelam (Sri Lanka).
...
In September 1997, Sheikh Omar Abdel Rahman, who is in jail in the United States for his role in the Feb. 28, 1993 bombing of the World Trade Center in New York, issued an order, as the spiritual leader of the Islamic Group, calling for an immediate cease-fire. The six members of the ruling council of Islamic Group residing in Egypt endorsed the Sheikh's order, but the remaining six council member, living in London, rejected the order. Two months later, the massacre at Luxor took place.
...
Formal diplomatic protests to London
This British harboring of international terrorist groups has not gone unnoticed by the nations that have been the targets of this brutality. To date, the British Foreign Office has received formal diplomatic protests from at least ten victimized countries. These include:
Egypt: British asylum for the Islamic Group and Islamic Jihad has been a persistent reason for Egyptian complaints to the British government. In April 1996, Egyptian Interior Minister Hasan al-Alfi told the British Arabic weekly Al-Wasat, "All terrorists come from London. They exist in other European countries, but they start from London." On Aug. 29, the government daily Al-Ahram reported that the British chargé d'affaires in Cairo was summoned by the Deputy Foreign Minister, and given a letter for Foreign Minister Malcolm Rifkind, protesting Britain's "double standard policy" and "support for international terrorism." An official of the Egyptian Foreign Ministry was quoted in the paper, saying, "The asylum law in Britain has provided a safe-haven for terrorists."
Egypt has been particularly incensed that the British have allowed the Islamic Group/Islamic Jihad to use London as their home-base. Continual demands that Britain extradite Islamic Group leaders Adel Abdul Majid and Adel Tawfiq al Sirri back to Cairo, where they have been sentenced to death in absentia for terrorist crimes, have been rejected.
On Feb. 13, 1997, Egyptian officials told Al-Hayat, that the Egyptian government remains "troubled" and "astonished" by Britain's decision to allow Abdul Majid to establish officially recognized centers in London, especially after the Egyptian Supreme Court released admissions from several members of the group, at the beginning of 1997, that they had received money and marching orders from Abdul Majid, to carry out bombings and assassinations throughout 1996.
These same officials told the paper that "this only further supports Egypt's belief that London has become the most prominent center for anti-Egypt Islamic extremist groups," and that there will continue to be talks on the highest levels "to know the reasons that made the British government allow the establishment of that [Islamic Group] office."
Following the Luxor massacre, Egyptian President Hosni Mubarak launched a personal international crusade to spotlight the role of the British government in harboring and sponsoring the terrorists who have targetted Egypt.
Israel: On March 3, 1996, after a Hamas bomb exploded in a Jerusalem market, killing a dozen people, and a second bomb exploded in Tel Aviv, Israel's ambassador to London met with Foreign Minister Rifkind to demand that Britain stop protecting the group. In an account of that confrontation, the London Express reported the next day, "Israeli security sources say the fanatics behind the bombings are funded and controlled through secret cells operating here. Only days before the latest terror campaign began, military chiefs in Jerusalem detailed how Islamic groups raised £7 million in donations from British organizations. The ambassador, Moshe Raviv, yesterday shared Israel's latest information about the Hamas operations. A source at the Israeli embassy said last night, `It is not the first time we have pointed out that Islamic terrorists are in Britain.' "
The British Foreign Office officially responded to the Israeli ambassador: "We have seen no proof to support allegations that funds raised by the Hamas in the U.K. are used directly in support of terrorist acts elsewhere."
In early September 1997, Shin Bet chief Ami Ayalon travelled to Britain, according to the Sunday Telegraph, after investigations determined that the two Hamas suicide bombers who killed 15 people in a Jerusalem market on July 30, arrived in Israel on British passports: "Israeli officials are said to have become increasingly frustrated by what they see as British foot-dragging in curbing the activities of Palestinian hard-liners. The Israeli government has made repeated calls for action to be taken against militants, said to be operating freely in the British capital."
France: In late 1995, the GIA's London headquarters ordered a terror war against France, leading France to loudly protest to the British government, according to the Nov. 6, 1995 London Daily Telegraph, in an article entitled "Britain Harbours Paris Bomber." On Nov. 3, 1995, the French daily Le Figaro wrote, under the headline "The Providential Fog of London," of the GIA's bombing spree: "The trail of Boualem Bensaid, GIA leader in Paris, leads to Great Britain. The British capital has served as logistical and financial base for the terrorists."
The next day, Le Parisien reported that the author of the GIA terror attack inside France was former Afghan mujahideen leader Abou Farres, who was given a residence visa in London, despite the fact that he was already wanted in connection with the bombing of the Algiers Airport. Farres's London-based organization, according to Le Parisien, recruits Islamic youth from the poor suburbs of Paris, and sends them to Afghanistan, where they are trained as terrorists.
Algeria also filed strong protests to the British Foreign Office over the harboring of the GIA in London.
Peru: The Peruvian government has made repeated requests to the British government, since 1992, demanding the extradition of Adolfo Héctor Olaechea, the London-based head of overseas operations for Shining Path, as well as the shutdown of its fundraising and support operations there. Both requests have been refused to this day. Moreover, in 1992, during the worst of the Shining Path offensive in Peru, Channel 4, of the Independent Broadcasting Authority, a dependency of the British Home Office, coordinated with Olaechea to send two journalists to Peru, where they contacted Shining Path units, and filmed a highly favorable report. The film was broadcast throughout Britain by Channel 4 on July 10, 1992, despite an official protest from the Peruvian government.
Turkey: On Aug. 20, 1996, the Turkish government formally protested to the British government for allowing the Kurdish Workers Party to continue its London-based MED TV broadcasts into Turkey, despite documentation that the broadcasts were being used to convey marching orders to PKK terrorists there.
Germany: The Bonn government issued a diplomatic note to London, too, following a March 1996 MED TV broadcast in which PKK leader Apo Ocalan called for murdering German Chancellor Kohl and Foreign Minister Kinkel. According to the German press, the Interior Ministry stated concerning the London station: "We have requested our colleagues in neighboring countries in Europe to put measures into effect in order to not compromise internal security in our own country."
Libya: On Feb. 7, 1997, the Libyan Foreign Ministry submitted an official protest to the British government, over Britain's permitting of the Militant Islamic Group to operate on British soil. The letter cited the recent assassination attempt against Colonel Qaddafi by members of the London-headquartered group, and read, in part, "The decision by Britain, which is a permanent member state of the [UN] Security Council, to shelter elements of that terrorist group who are wanted to stand trial in Libya and to enable them to openly announce their destructive intentions against a UN member state, namely Libya, . . . contravenes international charges and treaties."
Nigeria: On Feb. 28, 1997, the British government issued a denial that it had refused to extradite three Nigerians suspected of a series of bombings in the major city of Lagos in January 1997. The three men were leaders of the National Democratic Coalition (Nadeco).
Yemen: In January 1999, the government of Yemen filed formal diplomatic protests with Britain for the harboring of the terrorists who carried out bombings and kidnappings.
Russia: On Nov. 14, 1999, the Russian Foreign Ministry filed a formal protest to Andrew Wood, Britain's Ambassador in Moscow, after two Russian television journalists were brutally beaten as they attempted to film a London conference, where bin Laden's International Islamic Front, Ansar as-Shariah, Al-Muhajiroon, and other Islamist groups called for a jihad against Russia, in retaliation for the Russian military actions in Chechnya.
One of the victims of the beating, ORT cameraman Alexandr Panov, told Kommersant daily that he was "very surprised at the indifference of the British government. Some of the participants at the `charity' event were people wanted by Interpol, but Scotland Yard, although evidently aware of their residence [in Britain], does not react."
On Nov. 10, 1999, the Russian government had already filed a formal diplomatic démarche via the Russian Embassy in London, protesting the attacks on the Russian journalists, and also the admissions by Sheikh Omar Bakri Mohammed, the head of the "political wing" of the bin Laden organization, Al Muhajiroon, that the group was recruiting Muslims in England to go to Chechnya to fight the Russian Army. Bakri's organization operates freely from offices in the London suburb of Lee Valley, where they occupy two rooms at a local computer center, and maintain their own Internet company. Bakri has admitted that "retired" British military officers are training new recruits in Lee Valley, before they are sent off to camps in Afghanistan or Pakistan, or are smuggled directly into Chechnya.
On Nov. 20, 1999, the Daily Telegraph admitted, following the release of the U.S. State Department's updated list of Foreign Terrorist Organizations, that "Britain is now an international center for Islamic militancy on a huge scale . . . and the capital is the home to a bewildering variety of radical Islamic fundamentalist movements, many of which make no secret of their commitment to violence and terrorism to achieve their goals."
India: In December 1999, following the conclusion of the Indian Airlines hijacking, the Indian government protested the fact that British officials publicly stated that they would allow one of the freed Kashmiri terrorists, Ahmed Omar Sheikh, to return to London, because there "were no charges filed against him in Britain." The British government, facing growing international pressure, apparently has backed down from this decision.
=========
Cuba and Ireland could stand before any court and make the claim that the U.S. would meet, by its own definitive scope of terrorism, the standards as a country that supports terrorist acts in relation to its conduct and support in those countries. Central America and various countries of South America could also make the claim.
========
Oklahoma City was not a natural disaster. So, why are these groups not being rounded up and shipped to Gitmo? Their political viewpoint to overthrow the U.S. government has not changed. Their political viewpoint to challenge democracy and alter the American way of life to their specifications has not changed. Their capacity to launch another Oklahoma type bombing or worst has not diminished.
SIN EATERS--We take the moral excrement we find in this equation and we bury it down deep inside of us so that the rest of our case can stay pure. That is the job. We are morally indefensible and absolutely necessary.
I'd like to start with profiling at the airport, securing borders, and getting control on who is in this country and for what reasons, and where they are. I don't care about PC thought. I figure that a good Muslim wouldn't have much of a problem being profiled at the airport since he probably is just as worried about a radical flying his plane into a building as I am.
You almost had me until here. What religion are you? Put your religion in the following sentence:
I figure that a good ???? wouldn't have much of a problem being profiled at the airport since he probably is just as worried about a radical flying his plane into a building as I am.
There is no such thing as leftover pizza. There is now pizza and later pizza. - anonymous The risk I took was calculated, but man, am I bad at math - The Mincing Mockingbird
Any of you who label me as "left" is a fool. Any of you that believe that your own label of "left" defines me as hating america is an even bigger fool. Do you really believe I don't want Osama? I would strangle the life out of him with my bare hands, smile on my face. Do you really believe I'm pulling for the fall of america? Why, so I can sit back and die? So I can have the people I enjoy killed? Fools. Do you really believe that I would just rather sit back and forget about eveything that's happened? Why? So the same thing can happen again? Fools. You think I hate america? Why? Because it offers better stability and offers more than 90% of the other countries in the world? Fools. I hate the people who are slowly and effectively draining america of its freedoms that america prides itself. I hate the path that america is going along right now. Complete and full control of wiretapping on private citizens. That is an act of a communist state. I hate that america is hated the world over because of the actions of people who forget that they work for the people. There will be plenty to attack me. To say that because I question and do not lay down I want america to fall down. To say that because I don't die with my military boots on I'm a terrorist. To say that because I don't agree with the president, I'm actually supporting the terrorist. Fools.
That may not be reality. Osama and some of his friends were pissed off enough and cold enough to plan and execute a crime. Why should go to war with everyone that looks like him or has some of the same beliefs as him?
because they are not willing to step forth and fight, so you must attack the general group in an effort to get to him.
The only thing I enjoy is having no feelings....being numb rocks!
And I won't make the same mistakes
(Because I know)
Because I know how much time that wastes
(And function)
Function is the key
Comments
number of victims of "terror attacks": 4.319
number of killed on "war on terror": 92.469
numbers refer to civilians killed and include the israel/palestine and israel/lebanon conflicts
www.amnesty.org.uk
only caught about 10 min of it but i liked the part where he spoke about the terrorists shaking at the thought of someone voting...
:rolleyes:
he had a voice that was strong and loud and
i swallowed his facade cos i'm so
eager to identify with
someone above the crowd
someone who seemed to feel the same
someone prepared to lead the way
Now now those iraqi's lives are not as important as american lives.
The economy has polarized to the point where the wealthiest 10% now own 85% of the nation’s wealth. Never before have the bottom 90% been so highly indebted, so dependent on the wealthy.
And I try to make this kind and clear
Just a chance that maybe we'll find better days
Cuz I don't need boxes wrapped in strings
And desire and love and empty things
Just a chance that maybe we'll find better days
that cracked me up, too....
I guess my point in starting this thread was: It was pretty sad that bush used the 5th aniversary of 9/11 as a pulpit to push his agenda...I think it was disrespectful to the families who lost on that day...
also, he mentioned "freedom" about 100 times...and yet, people are advocating profiling and supporting warrentless wire taps...how is that "freedom"....?
well, they do try to prevent people from voting by killing them. talk about "stealing" elections.
And I try to make this kind and clear
Just a chance that maybe we'll find better days
Cuz I don't need boxes wrapped in strings
And desire and love and empty things
Just a chance that maybe we'll find better days
what makes you think your "reality" is right...while the other side is wrong...?
I believe your version of "reality" is supported by 30 to 35% of this country...
How was it disrespectful? Can you offer any specifics? 9/11 was a terrorist act perpetrated by a group of people. He used the 5th anniversary to hightlight this point, and to say these people still threaten to perform similar attacks in the future. It's not pushing his agenda, its talking about reality.
AGAIN...it was not a natural disaster.
And I try to make this kind and clear
Just a chance that maybe we'll find better days
Cuz I don't need boxes wrapped in strings
And desire and love and empty things
Just a chance that maybe we'll find better days
that's because you are obsessed with Iraq, and those poll numbers reflect sentiment towards Iraq, NOT national security.
And I try to make this kind and clear
Just a chance that maybe we'll find better days
Cuz I don't need boxes wrapped in strings
And desire and love and empty things
Just a chance that maybe we'll find better days
Reality dude????? The reality is that the war on terror is in Iraq according to Bush. Why do u ignore that. Stop listening to bill oreilly and look with your own eyes at whats going on.
"We must keep doing what we are doing or we'll suffer the consequences of doing what we've done."
But, hey, there are terrorists in Iraq now. Wooo!
I'll stand with you buddy. I thought the speech was great.
You are confusing Irak with the war against Islamic Terrorist. We were draged into a war. Irak had nothing to do with Al Qaeda and their Islamic Jihad. Also this so called war on terror has been going on way before 911 we just werent paying attention.
Click on the video "This Hole in the Ground" or you can read it:
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/6210240/
i'm still convinced muslims do not want freedom. but thats another topic.
good speech from bush, made me proud to be an american. I'm on our side. most people here are not.
"Our side"?!?!?!?
Do you have ANY concept of what a democracy is? You talk about "freedom" and then in the same post draw a line as to who are American's and who are not based on people's opinions and the fact that a lot of people disagree with the current administration. We are all on America's side, differing opinions is the point of a democracy.
It is scary how naive some people can be....
He did?
disagree all you want. most people, even americans, hate america. thats what i'm refering too.
People dont hate Americans, they dislike PEOPLE who think that they are the world and have no concept of the world outside of their own.
question: did you actully see the speech...?
as for offering specifics, I did...re-read the post you quoted...I was clear...
"Freedom is a good thing, even for a country that doesn't know it wants it yet"....talk about being on a very very high horse.....fact: Not everyone wants "Americanized" style freedom.....Muslims do want freedom if you knew some history that would be obvious to you....do you realize before 99% of people here knew who Al Queda was (pre 9/11) they were waging "inner" war on normal Muslims inside countries like Egypt and Algeria for being "free" for years...more along the lines of going against Islamic Koran convention....however the populace fought back and resulted in the diminishing of this group and sending them outside their borders.....pre 9/11 Al Queda was at minimum popularity in the Muslim world....well more exactly pre-Iraq.....
Al Queda went global on 9/11 to pick a fight...they got EXACTLY what they wanted from the USA....retaliation...America fell for the biggest gag ever....they went to war with this group and suddenly, and Iraq is the main example, showed the common Muslim man (which is 99% of the Islamic group...we will leave 1% as Fundanutalists) that maybe their nut preachings about the "Great Satan" were true......America came in bombing and never looked back....we all know civilian deaths over there are enormous and suddenly the Great Satan is indeed looking like that....Al Queda and other fundanutalists are unfortunatly gaining momentum because America, unknowingly due to the quick desire for revenge, has only shown the common Muslim man that Al Queda was correct.....
America has failed in this war by not winning the common Muslim man...instead they have turned the common Muslim man over there into its enemy.....
I ask what holds you back from cutting and running....your love for the Iraqi's (where were you then when the Kurds got gassed? Yeah I guess you didn't care then about freedom) or is it your patriotic pride that will not allow you to admit defeat.....?
Pride is a good thing...too much can lead to mistake after mistake.....to win the war on terror you will have to win over the common man and that isn't done through emotionless apologies "sorry we thought your house sheltered terrorists" but through diplomacy and the aiding in building of a free country.....
By your own words, we should have went to war with the U.K. instead of Iraq.
United Kingdom - http://www.larouchepub.com/lar/2000/terror_memo_2703.html
...
On Nov. 20, 1999, the Daily Telegraph admitted, following the release of the U.S. State Department's updated list of Foreign Terrorist Organizations, that "Britain is now an international center for Islamic militancy on a huge scale . . . and the capital is the home to a bewildering variety of radical Islamic fundamentalist movements, many of which make no secret of their commitment to violence and terrorism to achieve their goals."
...
Groups banned by United States
are headquartered in London
Shortly before the Luxor massacre, on Oct. 8, 1997, the U.S. State Department, in compliance with the Anti-Terrorism Act of 1996, released a list of 30 Foreign Terrorist Organizations (FTOs), banned from operating on U.S. soil.
Of the 30 groups named, six maintain headquarters in Britain. They are: the Islamic Group (Egypt), Al-Jihad (Egypt), Hamas (Israel, Palestinian Authority), Armed Islamic Group (Algeria, France), Kurdish Workers Party (Turkey), and the Liberation Tigers of Tamil Eelam (Sri Lanka).
...
In September 1997, Sheikh Omar Abdel Rahman, who is in jail in the United States for his role in the Feb. 28, 1993 bombing of the World Trade Center in New York, issued an order, as the spiritual leader of the Islamic Group, calling for an immediate cease-fire. The six members of the ruling council of Islamic Group residing in Egypt endorsed the Sheikh's order, but the remaining six council member, living in London, rejected the order. Two months later, the massacre at Luxor took place.
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Formal diplomatic protests to London
This British harboring of international terrorist groups has not gone unnoticed by the nations that have been the targets of this brutality. To date, the British Foreign Office has received formal diplomatic protests from at least ten victimized countries. These include:
Egypt: British asylum for the Islamic Group and Islamic Jihad has been a persistent reason for Egyptian complaints to the British government. In April 1996, Egyptian Interior Minister Hasan al-Alfi told the British Arabic weekly Al-Wasat, "All terrorists come from London. They exist in other European countries, but they start from London." On Aug. 29, the government daily Al-Ahram reported that the British chargé d'affaires in Cairo was summoned by the Deputy Foreign Minister, and given a letter for Foreign Minister Malcolm Rifkind, protesting Britain's "double standard policy" and "support for international terrorism." An official of the Egyptian Foreign Ministry was quoted in the paper, saying, "The asylum law in Britain has provided a safe-haven for terrorists."
Egypt has been particularly incensed that the British have allowed the Islamic Group/Islamic Jihad to use London as their home-base. Continual demands that Britain extradite Islamic Group leaders Adel Abdul Majid and Adel Tawfiq al Sirri back to Cairo, where they have been sentenced to death in absentia for terrorist crimes, have been rejected.
On Feb. 13, 1997, Egyptian officials told Al-Hayat, that the Egyptian government remains "troubled" and "astonished" by Britain's decision to allow Abdul Majid to establish officially recognized centers in London, especially after the Egyptian Supreme Court released admissions from several members of the group, at the beginning of 1997, that they had received money and marching orders from Abdul Majid, to carry out bombings and assassinations throughout 1996.
These same officials told the paper that "this only further supports Egypt's belief that London has become the most prominent center for anti-Egypt Islamic extremist groups," and that there will continue to be talks on the highest levels "to know the reasons that made the British government allow the establishment of that [Islamic Group] office."
Following the Luxor massacre, Egyptian President Hosni Mubarak launched a personal international crusade to spotlight the role of the British government in harboring and sponsoring the terrorists who have targetted Egypt.
Israel: On March 3, 1996, after a Hamas bomb exploded in a Jerusalem market, killing a dozen people, and a second bomb exploded in Tel Aviv, Israel's ambassador to London met with Foreign Minister Rifkind to demand that Britain stop protecting the group. In an account of that confrontation, the London Express reported the next day, "Israeli security sources say the fanatics behind the bombings are funded and controlled through secret cells operating here. Only days before the latest terror campaign began, military chiefs in Jerusalem detailed how Islamic groups raised £7 million in donations from British organizations. The ambassador, Moshe Raviv, yesterday shared Israel's latest information about the Hamas operations. A source at the Israeli embassy said last night, `It is not the first time we have pointed out that Islamic terrorists are in Britain.' "
The British Foreign Office officially responded to the Israeli ambassador: "We have seen no proof to support allegations that funds raised by the Hamas in the U.K. are used directly in support of terrorist acts elsewhere."
In early September 1997, Shin Bet chief Ami Ayalon travelled to Britain, according to the Sunday Telegraph, after investigations determined that the two Hamas suicide bombers who killed 15 people in a Jerusalem market on July 30, arrived in Israel on British passports: "Israeli officials are said to have become increasingly frustrated by what they see as British foot-dragging in curbing the activities of Palestinian hard-liners. The Israeli government has made repeated calls for action to be taken against militants, said to be operating freely in the British capital."
France: In late 1995, the GIA's London headquarters ordered a terror war against France, leading France to loudly protest to the British government, according to the Nov. 6, 1995 London Daily Telegraph, in an article entitled "Britain Harbours Paris Bomber." On Nov. 3, 1995, the French daily Le Figaro wrote, under the headline "The Providential Fog of London," of the GIA's bombing spree: "The trail of Boualem Bensaid, GIA leader in Paris, leads to Great Britain. The British capital has served as logistical and financial base for the terrorists."
The next day, Le Parisien reported that the author of the GIA terror attack inside France was former Afghan mujahideen leader Abou Farres, who was given a residence visa in London, despite the fact that he was already wanted in connection with the bombing of the Algiers Airport. Farres's London-based organization, according to Le Parisien, recruits Islamic youth from the poor suburbs of Paris, and sends them to Afghanistan, where they are trained as terrorists.
Algeria also filed strong protests to the British Foreign Office over the harboring of the GIA in London.
Peru: The Peruvian government has made repeated requests to the British government, since 1992, demanding the extradition of Adolfo Héctor Olaechea, the London-based head of overseas operations for Shining Path, as well as the shutdown of its fundraising and support operations there. Both requests have been refused to this day. Moreover, in 1992, during the worst of the Shining Path offensive in Peru, Channel 4, of the Independent Broadcasting Authority, a dependency of the British Home Office, coordinated with Olaechea to send two journalists to Peru, where they contacted Shining Path units, and filmed a highly favorable report. The film was broadcast throughout Britain by Channel 4 on July 10, 1992, despite an official protest from the Peruvian government.
Turkey: On Aug. 20, 1996, the Turkish government formally protested to the British government for allowing the Kurdish Workers Party to continue its London-based MED TV broadcasts into Turkey, despite documentation that the broadcasts were being used to convey marching orders to PKK terrorists there.
Germany: The Bonn government issued a diplomatic note to London, too, following a March 1996 MED TV broadcast in which PKK leader Apo Ocalan called for murdering German Chancellor Kohl and Foreign Minister Kinkel. According to the German press, the Interior Ministry stated concerning the London station: "We have requested our colleagues in neighboring countries in Europe to put measures into effect in order to not compromise internal security in our own country."
Libya: On Feb. 7, 1997, the Libyan Foreign Ministry submitted an official protest to the British government, over Britain's permitting of the Militant Islamic Group to operate on British soil. The letter cited the recent assassination attempt against Colonel Qaddafi by members of the London-headquartered group, and read, in part, "The decision by Britain, which is a permanent member state of the [UN] Security Council, to shelter elements of that terrorist group who are wanted to stand trial in Libya and to enable them to openly announce their destructive intentions against a UN member state, namely Libya, . . . contravenes international charges and treaties."
Nigeria: On Feb. 28, 1997, the British government issued a denial that it had refused to extradite three Nigerians suspected of a series of bombings in the major city of Lagos in January 1997. The three men were leaders of the National Democratic Coalition (Nadeco).
Yemen: In January 1999, the government of Yemen filed formal diplomatic protests with Britain for the harboring of the terrorists who carried out bombings and kidnappings.
Russia: On Nov. 14, 1999, the Russian Foreign Ministry filed a formal protest to Andrew Wood, Britain's Ambassador in Moscow, after two Russian television journalists were brutally beaten as they attempted to film a London conference, where bin Laden's International Islamic Front, Ansar as-Shariah, Al-Muhajiroon, and other Islamist groups called for a jihad against Russia, in retaliation for the Russian military actions in Chechnya.
One of the victims of the beating, ORT cameraman Alexandr Panov, told Kommersant daily that he was "very surprised at the indifference of the British government. Some of the participants at the `charity' event were people wanted by Interpol, but Scotland Yard, although evidently aware of their residence [in Britain], does not react."
On Nov. 10, 1999, the Russian government had already filed a formal diplomatic démarche via the Russian Embassy in London, protesting the attacks on the Russian journalists, and also the admissions by Sheikh Omar Bakri Mohammed, the head of the "political wing" of the bin Laden organization, Al Muhajiroon, that the group was recruiting Muslims in England to go to Chechnya to fight the Russian Army. Bakri's organization operates freely from offices in the London suburb of Lee Valley, where they occupy two rooms at a local computer center, and maintain their own Internet company. Bakri has admitted that "retired" British military officers are training new recruits in Lee Valley, before they are sent off to camps in Afghanistan or Pakistan, or are smuggled directly into Chechnya.
On Nov. 20, 1999, the Daily Telegraph admitted, following the release of the U.S. State Department's updated list of Foreign Terrorist Organizations, that "Britain is now an international center for Islamic militancy on a huge scale . . . and the capital is the home to a bewildering variety of radical Islamic fundamentalist movements, many of which make no secret of their commitment to violence and terrorism to achieve their goals."
India: In December 1999, following the conclusion of the Indian Airlines hijacking, the Indian government protested the fact that British officials publicly stated that they would allow one of the freed Kashmiri terrorists, Ahmed Omar Sheikh, to return to London, because there "were no charges filed against him in Britain." The British government, facing growing international pressure, apparently has backed down from this decision.
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Cuba and Ireland could stand before any court and make the claim that the U.S. would meet, by its own definitive scope of terrorism, the standards as a country that supports terrorist acts in relation to its conduct and support in those countries. Central America and various countries of South America could also make the claim.
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Oklahoma City was not a natural disaster. So, why are these groups not being rounded up and shipped to Gitmo? Their political viewpoint to overthrow the U.S. government has not changed. Their political viewpoint to challenge democracy and alter the American way of life to their specifications has not changed. Their capacity to launch another Oklahoma type bombing or worst has not diminished.
As far as W's speech goes he had some great lines last night for sure and by great I mean hilarious.
I figure that a good ???? wouldn't have much of a problem being profiled at the airport since he probably is just as worried about a radical flying his plane into a building as I am.
The risk I took was calculated, but man, am I bad at math - The Mincing Mockingbird
The guy spends 2 days at the sites of the damage and pays respects
He spends 20 minutes to let the public know what's going on with the war, etc. and still gets crucified
If he did'nt go to the sites, yet spent 20 minutes on TV paying respects, that would'nt be good enough either - you hipocritical bastards
Untill their will grows tired
Sounds like he really went out of his way as a president buddy. He's getting slammed for his actions the past two terms...think about it.
because they are not willing to step forth and fight, so you must attack the general group in an effort to get to him.
And I won't make the same mistakes
(Because I know)
Because I know how much time that wastes
(And function)
Function is the key
Define the general group please...
Does your little observation end in anything even resembling a point?
Untill their will grows tired