Native american Indians try to reclaim land

surferdude

hippiemom wrote:

But it ISN'T a race-based law! There is no law that says only native Americans can operate casinos. They are self-governing, as we are. They decide what to do on their land, just as we do. We can have casinos if we vote to allow them. It was on the ballot in Ohio last year, and Ohio turned it down. Fine, that's the will of the people. If the will of the people on the reservation to have casinos, that's fine too.

What makes a reserve in Ohio not part of Ohio when it comes to respecting Ohio's laws?

Grant to me the rights to do on my property they grant to Indians and then it won't be a race based law. Call my property the Surferdude Nation if you must but treat me as an equal.

hippiemom

surferdude wrote:

Well if you want to be your own nation start with your own currency and stop accepting money from Canada. Just decide what you want and live accordingly, same for Quebec. Canada is happy to have you as a part of it and better for it. But being part of Canada means accepting some rules and responsibilities that go along with your rights and priviledges. One of those responsibilities is living with Canada's commitment to the United Nations on Human Rights and not having race based laws. I'm all right if you don't want to live this way but it also means you don't want to be part of Canada and the priviledges and rights associated with being a part of Canada.

I don't know how it works in Canada, but here it's not much different than them being a separate state. All the states are part of the U.S., they all use U.S. currency, but they make decisions on most issues for themselves. Michigan allows gambling, Ohio doesn't, some reservations have casinos, some don't. I don't see what the big deal is at all. Canada may do things differently though, I can't speak to that.

surferdude

hippiemom wrote:

I don't know how it works in Canada, but here it's not much different than them being a separate state. All the states are part of the U.S., they all use U.S. currency, but they make decisions on most issues for themselves. Michigan allows gambling, Ohio doesn't, some reservations have casinos, some don't. I don't see what the big deal is at all. Canada may do things differently though, I can't speak to that.

It's wrong because it's all based on race. I do not know about in the US but in Canada if I moved onto a reserve I could not own property there and I would forfeit municipal level voting rights while still being obliged to pay taxes. That's taxation without representation based 100% on race. It's wrong. Most of it goes back to when treaties were signed when we were okay being a racist society and we had no problem with race based laws. I would have hoped that we had gotten to the point as a society where we are not okay with race based laws.

hippiemom

surferdude wrote:

It's wrong because it's all based on race. I do not know about in the US but in Canada if I moved onto a reserve I could not own property there and I would forfeit municipal level voting rights while still being obliged to pay taxes. That's taxation without representation based 100% on race. It's wrong. Most of it goes back to when treaties were signed when we were okay being a racist society and we had no problem with race based laws. I would have hoped that we had gotten to the point as a society where we are not okay with race based laws.

Whatever. Europeans came here, did their level best to exterminate the native population, herded the ones who survived onto some of the worst plots of land in the nation, and "allowed" them to self-govern. Oh my, wasn't that ever so gracious of us! What a wonderful trade they got, giving up their lives, their lands, their way of life, in exchange for being permitted to make their own laws on their desolate bit of property. Probably not a day goes by that they don't think how lucky they are.

I think they got a raw deal and I don't begrudge them anything. I'm glad some of the tribes are doing well financially. I sure don't feel like I'm being discriminated against.

surferdude

hippiemom wrote:

I think they got a raw deal and I don't begrudge them anything. I'm glad some of the tribes are doing well financially. I sure don't feel like I'm being discriminated against.

They did get the raw end of a deal but there was no malicious intent. I'm all for making the best future for all. Race based laws will never lead to the best future.

onelongsong

Restless Soul wrote:

Nothing to do with the white man? Why the need for the reservations in the first place?!

the reservations gave the indians sacred land back to them. they don't have to live on the reservation. in fact a lot leave the reservation and buy land like everyone else. i've heard several say that they live on the reservation because if they leave; the government money stops. on the reservation; they have their own laws and police it themselves. it's almost like they have their own country that they can govern themselves while being subsidized by the american government. the revenue from casinos is staggering. their yearly income may be low on their tax returns but they get a lot of benefits that don't have to be reported as income so their returns are misleading.

rigneyclan

onelongsong wrote:

the reservations gave the indians sacred land back to them.

Native Americans were moved hundreds of miles from their sacred land to places that contained some of the worst land in the nation.

I'm sure that some don't mind living on reservations, but many are too poor to move else where. Like I said earlier as an example: The Pine Ridge Lakota Reservation has an unemployment rate of over 70%! It's been like this for many years, and the US government is doing practically nothing to help. Also, the average family income in that reservation is $3,000! (poverty line is $19,000 and under).

onelongsong

rigneyclan wrote:

Native Americans were moved hundreds of miles from their sacred land to places that contained some of the worst land in the nation.

I'm sure that some don't mind living on reservations, but many are too poor to move else where. Like I said earlier as an example: The Pine Ridge Lakota Reservation has an unemployment rate of over 70%! It's been like this for many years, and the US government is doing practically nothing to help. Also, the average family income in that reservation is $3,000! (poverty line is $19,000 and under).

there are people starving all over the country. poverty doesn't discriminate between race; colour; or creed. i don't see your point.

all or nothingman

Couldn't help but be intrigued by this. I don't know if its been posted already since I don't have the time to read all of them but down here in Florida the Seminole tribe is doing fairly well for itself. I don't know how many of you know this but they just purchased the entire Hard Rock franchise a few months ago. The only one they don't own is in Las Vegas. Also, as part of the deal they got the 'Hard Rock Vault' which means they probably own more Pearl Jam memorabilia than everyone on this board combined.

Also I don't know if this has been posted either but according to law, property on reservations can only be sold to other members of that tribe and no outsiders. This is a good reason why a lot of native americans are now using the money that is coming in from the casinos to buy prime real estate in places like New York City and not improving the reservations.

I'm not saying all the tribes are doing well but the Seminole's don't have too many complaints right now.

onelongsong

all or nothingman wrote:

Couldn't help but be intrigued by this. I don't know if its been posted already since I don't have the time to read all of them but down here in Florida the Seminole tribe is doing fairly well for itself. I don't know how many of you know this but they just purchased the entire Hard Rock franchise a few months ago. The only one they don't own is in Las Vegas. Also, as part of the deal they got the 'Hard Rock Vault' which means they probably own more Pearl Jam memorabilia than everyone on this board combined.

Also I don't know if this has been posted either but according to law, property on reservations can only be sold to other members of that tribe and no outsiders. This is a good reason why a lot of native americans are now using the money that is coming in from the casinos to buy prime real estate in places like New York City and not improving the reservations.

I'm not saying all the tribes are doing well but the Seminole's don't have too many complaints right now.

same here. they don't have much to complain about.

macgyver06

Did you know?

Hitler modeled his concentration camps after America's Indian/Slave Concentration Camps.


just some trivia

mookie blaylock 10

surferdude wrote:

They did get the raw end of a deal but there was no malicious intent. I'm all for making the best future for all. Race based laws will never lead to the best future.

no malicious intent?!?! you say a lot of ridiculous things, but this one might take the cake.

surferdude

mookie blaylock 10 wrote:

no malicious intent?!?! you say a lot of ridiculous things, but this one might take the cake.

The world view at that time is that they were savages. They were treated accordingly. You cannot apply our today's standards to yesterday's actions. But don't worry, unevolved people 500 years from now will try to apply their standards to you and find you to be completely lacking as a human being as well.

"You may say a lot of ill thought things, but this one might take the cake.".

tobbac

surferdude wrote:

Well if you want to be your own nation start with your own currency and stop accepting money from Canada. Just decide what you want and live accordingly, same for Quebec. Canada is happy to have you as a part of it and better for it. But being part of Canada means accepting some rules and responsibilities that go along with your rights and priviledges. One of those responsibilities is living with Canada's commitment to the United Nations on Human Rights and not having race based laws. I'm all right if you don't want to live this way but it also means you don't want to be part of Canada and the priviledges and rights associated with being a part of Canada.

again not race based....and we are our own nation....and likewise feel free to pay up on land claims....as well as forwarding all cash, taxes of any sort made off the illegally occupied land all these years....and in ontario, canadas case....moving whole cities off of land already deeded many moons ago all along the grand river....6 miles either side.....

tobbac

surferdude wrote:

The world view at that time is that they were savages. They were treated accordingly. You cannot apply our today's standards to yesterday's actions. But don't worry, unevolved people 500 years from now will try to apply their standards to you and find you to be completely lacking as a human being as well.

"You may say a lot of ill thought things, but this one might take the cake.".

wow...unevolved? seems our unevolved asses saved some sailor and his crews superior asses from dying....and were repaid with raping and pillaging.....

mookie blaylock 10

surferdude wrote:

The world view at that time is that they were savages. They were treated accordingly. You cannot apply our today's standards to yesterday's actions. But don't worry, unevolved people 500 years from now will try to apply their standards to you and find you to be completely lacking as a human being as well.

"You may say a lot of ill thought things, but this one might take the cake.".

forget about starting your own nation, because you already live in your own little nonsensical world. it's sad that you understand very little outside of it.

there is still discrimination against native peoples today, and there is is still a culture that exists in the americas that looks down upon them. horrible atrocities have been committed in this century. recognition as human beings has only happened in this century, and some are still fighting for it in the minds of some backwards people who claim to be "human".

onelongsong

surferdude wrote:

The world view at that time is that they were savages. They were treated accordingly. You cannot apply our today's standards to yesterday's actions. But don't worry, unevolved people 500 years from now will try to apply their standards to you and find you to be completely lacking as a human being as well.

"You may say a lot of ill thought things, but this one might take the cake.".

when explorers came through and were killed; and women raped and killed along with their children; for no apparent cause; it's easy to view people as savages. but we too acted as savages. we kicked their asses and they signed a treaty accepting what they got. if they think they're going to give us worthless wilderness and now want developed land back; they can pay for it or we'll kick their asses again and renegotiate the treaties.
i know it sounds heartless but any uprising will be dealt with according to the law.

surferdude

mookie blaylock 10 wrote:

there is still discrimination against native peoples today, and there is is still a culture that exists in the americas that looks down upon them. horrible atrocities have been committed in this century. recognition as human beings has only happened in this century, and some are still fighting for it in the minds of some backwards people who claim to be "human".

I agree with all you say. But you cannot apply today's standards to yesterday's events. There was no malicious intent. At that time Indains unfortunately were thought of as savages and treated accordingly. Next thing I know you'll be calling Alexander Graham Bell a dumb ass for only inventing the phone and not the cellular phone. Or why couldn't Ford have invented the hydrogen fuel cell while he was at it.

surferdude

tobbac wrote:

again not race based....and we are our own nation....and likewise feel free to pay up on land claims....as well as forwarding all cash, taxes of any sort made off the illegally occupied land all these years....and in ontario, canadas case....moving whole cities off of land already deeded many moons ago all along the grand river....6 miles either side.....

BC has spent over a Billion dollars trying to settle land claims. That's a Billion dollars just in the negotiations. I see a lot more effort being put forth by the BC government to solve the issue than I do on the negotiating tribes.

surferdude

tobbac wrote:

again not race based....and we are our own nation...

You may be your own nation but your nation is 100% race based. Reserves grant rights based solely on race.