Native american Indians try to reclaim land

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  • deadnothingbetter
    deadnothingbetter Posts: 2,202
    Byrnzie wrote:
    The apartment I own in a high-rise in England wasn't built on Native American sacred land. Although I could be wrong about this. I'll go check it out right now.
    oh nevermind then

    but by all means, if this happens, isn't it similar to what's happening in the middle-east? the land was originally israels then solomon's temple was destroyed in 70 a.d. (or was it david's?) by the roman empire. then went to the muslims. then went back to the israelites in the 40's. so now there's this huge battle going on back and forth. i think this land can be shared equally between us all without anyone "owning" it, really.

    "this land is my land. this land is your land. from california to new york city... this land was made for you and me."
    This isn't the land of opportunity, it's the land of competition.
  • Scubascott
    Scubascott Posts: 815
    deadnothingbetter wrote:
    isn't it similar to what's happening in the middle-east? the land was originally israels then solomon's temple was destroyed in 70 a.d. (or was it david's?) by the roman empire. then went to the muslims. then went back to the israelites in the 40's. so now there's this huge battle going on back and forth. i think this land can be shared equally between us all without anyone "owning" it, really.

    That is a whole different kettle of fish and far more complicated than your description here. I don't think its really similar to the issue of aboriginal or native american land rights.
    It doesn't matter if you're male, female, or confused; black, white, brown, red, green, yellow; gay, lesbian; redneck cop, stoned; ugly; military style, doggy style; fat, rich or poor; vegetarian or cannibal; bum, hippie, virgin; famous or drunk-you're either an asshole or you're not!

    -C Addison
  • deadnothingbetter
    deadnothingbetter Posts: 2,202
    Byrnzie wrote:
    When Carlito de Oliveira returned to the ancestral lands he was forced to abandon 50 years ago in southwestern Brazil, he found the forest had been turned to pasture land.

    But the Kaiowa Indian refused to give in. He invaded the ranch with his family in 2001, and has held on despite repeated clashes with police and gunmen.

    "This is where my grandfather is buried; I give my life for this land," Oliveira said at the camp outside the farming frontier town of Dourados.

    Like Oliveira and his family, more and more of the some 40,000 Indians in this area are abandoning overcrowded reserves where alcohol and drug abuse are widespread to reclaim the land they once inhabited.

    Facing overt racism and with little or no political power to improve their plight, their traditional submissiveness is giving way to growing anger.

    "They're not going to die like some endangered species without putting up a fight," says Zelik Trajber, chief physician in the nearby Dourados reservation. "If they could organize, they'd be a serious problem."

    You may be 'just a dude living in a one bedroom apartment, scraping by' but this dude above sounds like he's got more of a struggle on his hands. He's not talking about his ancestors getting burnt. It was he himself who was driven from his land 50 years ago.
    No one here's asking you or anyone else to give a shit. Most people are content to go through life not giving a second thought to the plight of others, or of the wider world. But this is a message board where we come to get some strange kick out of debating various topics, and where hopefully something resembling the truth can emerge. Some people here may be inspired to go on to try and effect change in some way or other. If you're not interested in anything other than being able to scrape by in your one bedroom apartment then great. But why bother contributing nothing but negativity to a thread such as this one, regarding the plight of people about whom you don't know anything?
    well, putting it that way... i can agree. hell, i'd even fight with those natives.
    This isn't the land of opportunity, it's the land of competition.
  • deadnothingbetter
    deadnothingbetter Posts: 2,202
    Scubascott wrote:
    That is a whole different kettle of fish and far more complicated than your description here. I don't think its really similar to the issue of aboriginal or native american land rights.
    well, maybe not. but still... it's similar. cause the question is still the same on both sides. "who's land is it?"
    This isn't the land of opportunity, it's the land of competition.
  • sicnevol
    sicnevol Posts: 180
    deadnothingbetter wrote:
    oh nevermind then

    but by all means, if this happens, isn't it similar to what's happening in the middle-east? the land was originally israels then solomon's temple was destroyed in 70 a.d. (or was it david's?) by the roman empire. then went to the muslims. then went back to the israelites in the 40's. so now there's this huge battle going on back and forth. i think this land can be shared equally between us all without anyone "owning" it, really.

    "this land is my land. this land is your land. from california to new york city... this land was made for you and me."
    The reason thats such a big fucking deal is because its a Holy Land for 3 diffrent churches. The only reason they fight over who owns, is so they can fight over who gets the revenue.
    That's two things we've got, Tape and Time.
  • deadnothingbetter
    deadnothingbetter Posts: 2,202
    sicnevol wrote:
    The reason thats such a big fucking deal is because its a Holy Land for 3 diffrent churches. The only reason they fight over who owns, is so they can fight over who gets the revenue.
    put it this way, in the 1940's when Israel was made a nation, all the muslims were practically kicked out of their homes. Let's say this happens here in america as well, all because of what happened hundreds of years ago. Let's say that all americans are kicked out of their homes. If the muslims had every right to retaliate then americans would to. Give the natives all that they'd like but please don't give them my home. that's what i'm saying.
    This isn't the land of opportunity, it's the land of competition.
  • Byrnzie
    Byrnzie Posts: 21,037
    deadnothingbetter wrote:
    oh nevermind then

    but by all means, if this happens, isn't it similar to what's happening in the middle-east? the land was originally israels then solomon's temple was destroyed in 70 a.d. (or was it david's?) by the roman empire. then went to the muslims. then went back to the israelites in the 40's. so now there's this huge battle going on back and forth. i think this land can be shared equally between us all without anyone "owning" it, really.

    "this land is my land. this land is your land. from california to new york city... this land was made for you and me."

    Don't get me started on the Middle East! ;)
  • deadnothingbetter
    deadnothingbetter Posts: 2,202
    Byrnzie wrote:
    Don't get me started on the Middle East! ;)
    well, i'm sure you're a much more informed person than i am on that subject. but, still. i ain't giving my house away all because of what happened a hundred years ago.
    This isn't the land of opportunity, it's the land of competition.
  • sicnevol
    sicnevol Posts: 180
    deadnothingbetter wrote:
    put it this way, in the 1940's when Israel was made a nation, all the muslims were practically kicked out of their homes. Let's say this happens here in america as well, all because of what happened hundreds of years ago. Let's say that all americans are kicked out of their homes. If the muslims had every right to retaliate then americans would to. Give the natives all that they'd like but please don't give them my home. that's what i'm saying.
    yeah yeah, I get ya.


    i'm just saying that the only reason its still an issue is the money.

    otherwise everyone could come to a happy compromise. sadly its all "you started it, no you started it, an infinim.
    That's two things we've got, Tape and Time.
  • deadnothingbetter
    deadnothingbetter Posts: 2,202
    sicnevol wrote:
    yeah yeah, I get ya.


    i'm just saying that the only reason its still an issue is the money.

    otherwise everyone could come to a happy compromise. sadly its all "you started it, no you started it, an infinim.
    what's an infinim? by the way, have you noticed that i'm the biggest dumbass on this thread. :(
    This isn't the land of opportunity, it's the land of competition.
  • sicnevol
    sicnevol Posts: 180
    deadnothingbetter wrote:
    what's an infinim? by the way, have you noticed that i'm the biggest dumbass on this thread. :(
    Ad infinitum is a Latin phrase meaning "to infinity."

    i spelled it wrong LOL!
    That's two things we've got, Tape and Time.
  • deadnothingbetter
    deadnothingbetter Posts: 2,202
    sicnevol wrote:
    Ad infinitum is a Latin phrase meaning "to infinity."

    i spelled it wrong LOL!
    so i guess i'm not the biggest dumbass! :D
    This isn't the land of opportunity, it's the land of competition.
  • sicnevol
    sicnevol Posts: 180
    deadnothingbetter wrote:
    so i guess i'm not the biggest dumbass! :D
    nope. thats what i get for taking latin as a minor.
    That's two things we've got, Tape and Time.
  • Byrnzie
    Byrnzie Posts: 21,037
    deadnothingbetter wrote:
    well, i'm sure you're a much more informed person than i am on that subject. but, still. i ain't giving my house away all because of what happened a hundred years ago.

    If your house in Austin wasn't built upon stolen land entrusted to a Native American tribe by way of a lawful treaty, then you've nothing to worry about.
  • 69charger
    69charger Posts: 1,045
    Restless Soul wrote:
    Why the need for the reservations in the first place?!

    To get into popular dining establishments?
  • tobbac
    tobbac Posts: 234
    Ahnimus wrote:
    Because natives don't want to live with the white man.

    thats the stupidest thing ive read thus far...that and whoever said its the past let it go....if you think that the native people chose the crap land they live on so they could get away from whitey....i think you should learn your history....also about it being the past....im fairly certain if your entire family had their land taken from them and were sent to some crappy third rate piece of the country you wouldnt let it go either.....

    i dont know about the states...but round here we still had residential schools open until like the 80's....residential schools....ya fun....being raped, beaten and having your culture ripped away from you by the people who are supposed to be teaching and nurturing you....
    You ain't-never seen no one like me
    Prevail-regardless what the cost might be
    Power-flows inside of me, you can't bring me
    Never-fall as long as I try
    Refuse-to be a part of your lie
    Even-if it means I die, you can't bring me
    You...can't...bring...me...down!
  • tobbac
    tobbac Posts: 234
    surferdude wrote:
    It's race based because it makes "Indian" land different than mine or yours. I can't govern myself on my land and decide to open a casino based solely on my race. It's a race based law any way you want to slice it.


    thats because you being of different race doesnt make you a different nation....they are a nation onto themselves...theyre not americans...same as im not technically canadian...
    You ain't-never seen no one like me
    Prevail-regardless what the cost might be
    Power-flows inside of me, you can't bring me
    Never-fall as long as I try
    Refuse-to be a part of your lie
    Even-if it means I die, you can't bring me
    You...can't...bring...me...down!
  • surferdude
    surferdude Posts: 2,057
    hippiemom wrote:
    Europeans came over here, committed genocide and stole all the land that was once theirs. In return, what they finally got was to be "allowed" to govern themselves on patches of land that were deemed relatively worthless by the government. You don't really begrudge them that, do you?!
    I empathise with their plight but I don't think the way to deal with it is to legislate racism and race based laws.
    “One good thing about music,
    when it hits you, you feel to pain.
    So brutalize me with music.”
    ~ Bob Marley
  • hippiemom
    hippiemom Posts: 3,326
    surferdude wrote:
    I empathise with their plight but I don't think the way to deal with it is to legislate racism and race based laws.
    But it ISN'T a race-based law! There is no law that says only native Americans can operate casinos. They are self-governing, as we are. They decide what to do on their land, just as we do. We can have casinos if we vote to allow them. It was on the ballot in Ohio last year, and Ohio turned it down. Fine, that's the will of the people. If the will of the people on the reservation to have casinos, that's fine too.
    "Nothing in the world is more dangerous than sincere ignorance and conscientious stupidity." ~ MLK, 1963
  • surferdude
    surferdude Posts: 2,057
    tobbac wrote:
    thats because you being of different race doesnt make you a different nation....they are a nation onto themselves...theyre not americans...same as im not technically canadian...
    Well if you want to be your own nation start with your own currency and stop accepting money from Canada. Just decide what you want and live accordingly, same for Quebec. Canada is happy to have you as a part of it and better for it. But being part of Canada means accepting some rules and responsibilities that go along with your rights and priviledges. One of those responsibilities is living with Canada's commitment to the United Nations on Human Rights and not having race based laws. I'm all right if you don't want to live this way but it also means you don't want to be part of Canada and the priviledges and rights associated with being a part of Canada.
    “One good thing about music,
    when it hits you, you feel to pain.
    So brutalize me with music.”
    ~ Bob Marley

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