Native american Indians try to reclaim land

Restless SoulRestless Soul Posts: 805
edited May 2007 in A Moving Train
Don't know if this has been posted already but I thought this was interesting:

http://www.cnn.com/2007/WORLD/americas/05/08/indians.land.reut/index.html?eref=rss_latest

Don't know how you guys feel about this but I think they have every right to take back the land their forefathers owned - I'm surprised it hasn't happened sooner! I've never understood how people can think that being left to rot on a reservation is ok for one group of people, especially in this day and age.

I wonder if it could happen in the states?
"We have to change the concept of patriotism to one of “matriotism” — love of humanity that transcends war. A matriarch would never send her own children off to wars that kill other people’s children." Cindy Sheehan
---
London, Brixton, 14 July 1993
London, Wembley, 1996
London, Wembley, 18 June 2007
London, O2, 18 August 2009
London, Hammersmith Apollo (Ed solo), 31 July 2012
Milton Keynes Bowl, 11 July 2014
London, Hammersmith Apollo (Ed solo), 06 June 2017
London, O2, 18 June 2018
London, O2, 17 July 2018
Amsterdam, Afas Live (Ed solo), 09 June 2019
Amsterdam, Afas Live (Ed solo), 10 June 2019



Post edited by Unknown User on
«1345

Comments

  • rigneyclanrigneyclan Posts: 289
    Good to know. Reservations are prison camps. It's been long overdue.
    7/16/06 7/18/06
  • surferdudesurferdude Posts: 2,057
    Don't know if this has been posted already but I thought this was interesting:

    http://www.cnn.com/2007/WORLD/americas/05/08/indians.land.reut/index.html?eref=rss_latest

    Don't know how you guys feel about this but I think they have every right to take back the land their forefathers owned...
    I'm not that aware of customs of Brazil Indians but the concept of land ownership was a foreign concept to North American Indians. I know there area I live in has been claimed at a 275% rate by local tribes. So obviously the concept of ownership did not exist prior to about 1600. So I always find Indians now claiming ownership as a perverse catch-22 for them.
    “One good thing about music,
    when it hits you, you feel to pain.
    So brutalize me with music.”
    ~ Bob Marley
  • onelongsongonelongsong Posts: 3,517
    it'll be hard in america. past laws such as homesteading etc will make it hard to do.
  • Restless SoulRestless Soul Posts: 805
    surferdude wrote:
    I'm not that aware of customs of Brazil Indians but the concept of land ownership was a foreign concept to North American Indians. I know there area I live in has been claimed at a 275% rate by local tribes. So obviously the concept of ownership did not exist prior to about 1600. So I always find Indians now claiming ownership as a perverse catch-22 for them.

    So are you saying that mean North american indians would not be able to claim any land because of their own attitude towards land ownership? What about after 1600 - do they not have any rights then?
    "We have to change the concept of patriotism to one of “matriotism” — love of humanity that transcends war. A matriarch would never send her own children off to wars that kill other people’s children." Cindy Sheehan
    ---
    London, Brixton, 14 July 1993
    London, Wembley, 1996
    London, Wembley, 18 June 2007
    London, O2, 18 August 2009
    London, Hammersmith Apollo (Ed solo), 31 July 2012
    Milton Keynes Bowl, 11 July 2014
    London, Hammersmith Apollo (Ed solo), 06 June 2017
    London, O2, 18 June 2018
    London, O2, 17 July 2018
    Amsterdam, Afas Live (Ed solo), 09 June 2019
    Amsterdam, Afas Live (Ed solo), 10 June 2019



  • sourdoughsourdough Posts: 579
    it'll be hard in america. past laws such as homesteading etc will make it hard to do.
    That said, the Royal Proclamation promised the entire Ohio River Valley to the FN exclusively and was never repealed.
  • surferdudesurferdude Posts: 2,057
    So are you saying that mean North american indians would not be able to claim any land because of their own attitude towards land ownership? What about after 1600 - do they not have any rights then?
    I'm not professing to have answers. But you can see that there is a problem when the same piece of land is being claimed by 5 tribes as their ancesteral land.

    I didn't create the mess and truthfully I'm not that interested in spending time or energy in trying to clean up the mess when the people you are dealing with had unresolved land issues to start with.
    “One good thing about music,
    when it hits you, you feel to pain.
    So brutalize me with music.”
    ~ Bob Marley
  • AhnimusAhnimus Posts: 10,560
    Natives can work and buy property just as well as anyone else can.

    Fuck the past, it's water under the bridge. If they want to make progress, they need to take a step forward and not back.
    I necessarily have the passion for writing this, and you have the passion for condemning me; both of us are equally fools, equally the toys of destiny. Your nature is to do harm, mine is to love truth, and to make it public in spite of you. - Voltaire
  • CollinCollin Posts: 4,931
    surferdude wrote:
    I'm not professing to have answers. But you can see that there is a problem when the same piece of land is being claimed by 5 tribes as their ancesteral land.

    I didn't create the mess and truthfully I'm not that interested in spending time or energy in trying to clean up the mess when the people you are dealing with had unresolved land issues to start with.

    I'm not sure where I got this but I heard or read somewhere that they believe their home is where their dead are buried.

    Does anyone know if there's in truth in this?
    THANK YOU, LOSTDAWG!


    naděje umírá poslední
  • surferdudesurferdude Posts: 2,057
    Collin wrote:
    I'm not sure where I got this but I heard or read somewhere that they believe their home is where their dead are buried.

    Does anyone know if there's in truth in this?
    That's how many try to define their ancesteral home. In general North American Indians believed they belonged to the land and not vice-versa. So it places them in a catch-22 when trying to make land claims.
    “One good thing about music,
    when it hits you, you feel to pain.
    So brutalize me with music.”
    ~ Bob Marley
  • onelongsongonelongsong Posts: 3,517
    Ahnimus wrote:
    Natives can work and buy property just as well as anyone else can.

    Fuck the past, it's water under the bridge. If they want to make progress, they need to take a step forward and not back.

    someone said that reservations are like prison camps but i live between several here in arizona. they have nice houses and drive nice vehicles. if they live on the reservation they get a monthly check. i'm not saying they have it good but deffinately better than a lot of americans living in campers because they can't find work.
    i don't know how they'd deal with all the money paid to the american indians over the last couple hundred years. surely it was enough to buy the country several times over.
  • AhnimusAhnimus Posts: 10,560
    someone said that reservations are like prison camps but i live between several here in arizona. they have nice houses and drive nice vehicles. if they live on the reservation they get a monthly check. i'm not saying they have it good but deffinately better than a lot of americans living in campers because they can't find work.
    i don't know how they'd deal with all the money paid to the american indians over the last couple hundred years. surely it was enough to buy the country several times over.

    Yup. It's pretty much up to the tyee/chief who gets what from the reparations and casino profits. So some reserves are like prisons, with the chief being the warden. It has nothing to do with the white man.
    I necessarily have the passion for writing this, and you have the passion for condemning me; both of us are equally fools, equally the toys of destiny. Your nature is to do harm, mine is to love truth, and to make it public in spite of you. - Voltaire
  • Restless SoulRestless Soul Posts: 805
    someone said that reservations are like prison camps but i live between several here in arizona. they have nice houses and drive nice vehicles. if they live on the reservation they get a monthly check. i'm not saying they have it good but deffinately better than a lot of americans living in campers because they can't find work.
    i don't know how they'd deal with all the money paid to the american indians over the last couple hundred years. surely it was enough to buy the country several times over.



    It sounds to me like they are on welfare or something. Do you know how much they get a month?
    "We have to change the concept of patriotism to one of “matriotism” — love of humanity that transcends war. A matriarch would never send her own children off to wars that kill other people’s children." Cindy Sheehan
    ---
    London, Brixton, 14 July 1993
    London, Wembley, 1996
    London, Wembley, 18 June 2007
    London, O2, 18 August 2009
    London, Hammersmith Apollo (Ed solo), 31 July 2012
    Milton Keynes Bowl, 11 July 2014
    London, Hammersmith Apollo (Ed solo), 06 June 2017
    London, O2, 18 June 2018
    London, O2, 17 July 2018
    Amsterdam, Afas Live (Ed solo), 09 June 2019
    Amsterdam, Afas Live (Ed solo), 10 June 2019



  • Restless SoulRestless Soul Posts: 805
    Ahnimus wrote:
    Yup. It's pretty much up to the tyee/chief who gets what from the reparations and casino profits. So some reserves are like prisons, with the chief being the warden. It has nothing to do with the white man.

    Nothing to do with the white man? Why the need for the reservations in the first place?!
    "We have to change the concept of patriotism to one of “matriotism” — love of humanity that transcends war. A matriarch would never send her own children off to wars that kill other people’s children." Cindy Sheehan
    ---
    London, Brixton, 14 July 1993
    London, Wembley, 1996
    London, Wembley, 18 June 2007
    London, O2, 18 August 2009
    London, Hammersmith Apollo (Ed solo), 31 July 2012
    Milton Keynes Bowl, 11 July 2014
    London, Hammersmith Apollo (Ed solo), 06 June 2017
    London, O2, 18 June 2018
    London, O2, 17 July 2018
    Amsterdam, Afas Live (Ed solo), 09 June 2019
    Amsterdam, Afas Live (Ed solo), 10 June 2019



  • AhnimusAhnimus Posts: 10,560
    Nothing to do with the white man? Why the need for the reservations in the first place?!

    Because natives don't want to live with the white man.
    I necessarily have the passion for writing this, and you have the passion for condemning me; both of us are equally fools, equally the toys of destiny. Your nature is to do harm, mine is to love truth, and to make it public in spite of you. - Voltaire
  • moeaholicmoeaholic Posts: 535
    this has been going on for a few years now around here (central ny). the native americans have actually been buying land left and right. matter of fact, they made an offer to one of my co-workers, but she said no. they were willing to give her quite a bit of money for some lakefront property, too. all that casino money is just pouring in. plus, they've got around 4 golf courses now, too, at the casino...one of them will be used for PGA events i think starting this year. they're public courses and probably the best ones around here, but the one that's being used for the PGA event is friggin' expensive. i just checked the paper the other day (they had a large 'golf' section) and they had the greens fees listed at $255, for 18 holes. that's more than a car payment for me.
    "PC Load Letter?! What the fuck does that mean?"
    ~Michael Bolton
  • Restless SoulRestless Soul Posts: 805
    Ahnimus wrote:
    Because natives don't want to live with the white man.

    What's your evidence?
    "We have to change the concept of patriotism to one of “matriotism” — love of humanity that transcends war. A matriarch would never send her own children off to wars that kill other people’s children." Cindy Sheehan
    ---
    London, Brixton, 14 July 1993
    London, Wembley, 1996
    London, Wembley, 18 June 2007
    London, O2, 18 August 2009
    London, Hammersmith Apollo (Ed solo), 31 July 2012
    Milton Keynes Bowl, 11 July 2014
    London, Hammersmith Apollo (Ed solo), 06 June 2017
    London, O2, 18 June 2018
    London, O2, 17 July 2018
    Amsterdam, Afas Live (Ed solo), 09 June 2019
    Amsterdam, Afas Live (Ed solo), 10 June 2019



  • AhnimusAhnimus Posts: 10,560
    What's your evidence?

    I've got none, subjective personal experience, television. Crapola.
    I necessarily have the passion for writing this, and you have the passion for condemning me; both of us are equally fools, equally the toys of destiny. Your nature is to do harm, mine is to love truth, and to make it public in spite of you. - Voltaire
  • Ahnimus wrote:
    Natives can work and buy property just as well as anyone else can.

    Fuck the past, it's water under the bridge. If they want to make progress, they need to take a step forward and not back.
    exactly, hell, i ain't giving them my land. as far as i'm concerned they never lived in my house. maybe their great great great great great great great grandfathers did but not them.
    This isn't the land of opportunity, it's the land of competition.
  • MLC2006MLC2006 Posts: 861
    What's your evidence?

    what's the evidence that they, in general, don't want to live amongst white men? the evidence is called "history". it cost an enormous loss of life on both sides.
  • ByrnzieByrnzie Posts: 21,037
    Ahnimus wrote:
    If they want to make progress, they need to take a step forward and not back.
    Ahnimus wrote:
    Yup. It's pretty much up to the tyee/chief who gets what from the reparations and casino profits. So some reserves are like prisons, with the chief being the warden. It has nothing to do with the white man.


    You sound like you think you're an authority on this subject Ahnimus. The fact is, you don't know what you're talking about. Try learning something about the subject before commenting on it and washing your hands of something about which you know nothing.
  • ByrnzieByrnzie Posts: 21,037
    Ahnimus wrote:
    Because natives don't want to live with the white man.

    Some do, and some want to live in the traditional way and hold onto the ancestral ways. So what? Why are you so bothered by this?
  • ByrnzieByrnzie Posts: 21,037
    exactly, hell, i ain't giving them my land. as far as i'm concerned they never lived in my house. maybe their great great great great great great great grandfathers did but not them.


    Admire me, admire my home
    Admire my song, admire my clothes
    An appetite for a nightly feast
    Those ignorant Indians got nothin' on me
    Nothin', why?
    Because, it's evolution, baby!
  • ByrnzieByrnzie Posts: 21,037
    MLC2006 wrote:
    what's the evidence that they, in general, don't want to live amongst white men? the evidence is called "history". it cost an enormous loss of life on both sides.

    It's not called history when it concerns the present. Native Americans aren't a thing of the past, despite all efforts to make them that way. Try doing your homework.

    Here's a book you may wanna read for starters. It concerns a Native American political prisoner who is still being held unjustly in Leavenworth prison for a crime he didn't commit, having already spent 35 years behind bars. It also discusses the attempt to steal the mineral-rich land by the local authorities, with the backing of the FBI, and Government sponsored Indian militias, which resulted in the deaths of hundreds of Indians during the 1970's.
    http://www.amazon.co.uk/Spirit-Crazy-Horse-Peter-Matthiessen/dp/0140144560/ref=sr_1_3/202-6523891-7288668?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1178670791&sr=1-3


    http://outside.away.com/magazine/0795/7f_leo1.html
  • MLC2006MLC2006 Posts: 861
    Byrnzie wrote:
    It's not called history when it concerns the present. Native Americans aren't a thing of the past, despite all efforts to make them that way. Try doing your homework.

    Here's a book you may wanna read for starters. It concerns a Native American political prisoner who is still being held unjustly in Leavenworth prison for a crime he didn't commit, having already spent 35 years behind bars. It also discusses the attempt to steal the mineral-rich land by the local authorities, with the backing of the FBI, and Government sponsored Indian militias, which resulted in the deaths of hundreds of Indians during the 1970's.
    http://www.amazon.co.uk/Spirit-Crazy-Horse-Peter-Matthiessen/dp/0140144560/ref=sr_1_3/202-6523891-7288668?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1178670791&sr=1-3


    http://outside.away.com/magazine/0795/7f_leo1.html

    ok, if you say "let's forget the past and talk about the present", then let's FORGET about the past. by that token, they absolutely have no right or claim to any land. thanks for agreeing with me.

    the linked article of this topic has nothing to do with the US, but all the anti-American nitwits have made it about the US. so, history is written by the victors, and history says the Native Americans have no claim to this land. they have reservations if they want to live there, or if they want to assimilate into American society, they can do that. but nothing in America is free and they are OWED nothing.
  • ByrnzieByrnzie Posts: 21,037
    MLC2006 wrote:
    ok, if you say "let's forget the past and talk about the present", then let's FORGET about the past. by that token, they absolutely have no right or claim to any land. thanks for agreeing with me.

    the linked article of this topic has nothing to do with the US, but all the anti-American nitwits have made it about the US. so, history is written by the victors, and history says the Native Americans have no claim to this land. they have reservations if they want to live there, or if they want to assimilate into American society, they can do that. but nothing in America is free and they are OWED nothing.

    Please quote me when I said "forget about the past". You can't. So your first sentence can be dismissed as irrelevant gibberish.

    So the linked article has nothing to do with the U.S, but the original poster asked the question...
    I wonder if it could happen in the states?

    Still, nevermind that. You obviously prefer to ignore certain facts about your country which are deemed unpalatable, and believe that anyone who mentions them is being 'anti-American'.
    So you believe that 'history says the Native Americans have no claim to this land.' I think you'll find if you do your homework that Native Americans have every right to the land which was signed to them in the hundreds of legal treaties whose authority persists to this day.
  • Byrnzie wrote:
    Admire me, admire my home
    Admire my song, admire my clothes
    An appetite for a nightly feast
    Those ignorant Indians got nothin' on me
    Nothin', why?
    Because, it's evolution, baby!

    well said, my friend.

    some of the opinions and posts in this thread are simply very sad. so wrong. :(
  • ByrnzieByrnzie Posts: 21,037
    well said, my friend.

    some of the opinions and posts in this thread are simply very sad. so wrong. :(

    Thanks. Seems that the John Wayne notion of Native Americans sadly still persists to this day for many people.
  • jeffbrjeffbr Seattle Posts: 7,177
    Byrnzie wrote:
    So you believe that 'history says the Native Americans have no claim to this land.' I think you'll find if you do your homework that Native Americans have every right to the land which was signed to them in the hundreds of legal treaties whose authority persists to this day.

    I definitely think both sides should honor treaties. But what is your proposal to ultimately move past this issue? Reparations? Deeding of more land? Deeding of all land? And who pays? Remember when the natives were first exploited "we Americans" were actually "you Brits". Shouldn't you guys pay?

    Honestly, I have no idea how things could be "made right" so that everyone is happy. It is a very tough and emotional issue.
    "I'll use the magic word - let's just shut the fuck up, please." EV, 04/13/08
  • ByrnzieByrnzie Posts: 21,037
    jeffbr wrote:
    I definitely think both sides should honor treaties. But what is your proposal to ultimately move past this issue? Reparations? Deeding of more land? Deeding of all land? And who pays? Remember when the natives were first exploited "we Americans" were actually "you Brits". Shouldn't you guys pay?

    Honestly, I have no idea how things could be "made right" so that everyone is happy. It is a very tough and emotional issue.

    I'm with you on this one. I don't know enough about the minutia regarding all of the individual claims, and treaties e.t.c. I do think, however, that the wider issues of land continuing to be stolen, and of the various other abuses which continue to this day should be made public. Too much about the Native American struggle has been, and continues to be, swept under the carpet.
  • damn hippie Indians...
    Progress is not made by everyone joining some new fad,
    and reveling in it's loyalty. It's made by forming coalitions
    over specific principles, goals, and policies.

    http://i36.tinypic.com/66j31x.jpg

    (\__/)
    ( o.O)
    (")_(")
Sign In or Register to comment.