Native american Indians try to reclaim land

Byrnzie

Ahnimus wrote:

Because natives don't want to live with the white man.

Some do, and some want to live in the traditional way and hold onto the ancestral ways. So what? Why are you so bothered by this?

Byrnzie

deadnothingbetter wrote:

exactly, hell, i ain't giving them my land. as far as i'm concerned they never lived in my house. maybe their great great great great great great great grandfathers did but not them.

Admire me, admire my home
Admire my song, admire my clothes
An appetite for a nightly feast
Those ignorant Indians got nothin' on me
Nothin', why?
Because, it's evolution, baby!

Byrnzie

MLC2006 wrote:

what's the evidence that they, in general, don't want to live amongst white men? the evidence is called "history". it cost an enormous loss of life on both sides.

It's not called history when it concerns the present. Native Americans aren't a thing of the past, despite all efforts to make them that way. Try doing your homework.

Here's a book you may wanna read for starters. It concerns a Native American political prisoner who is still being held unjustly in Leavenworth prison for a crime he didn't commit, having already spent 35 years behind bars. It also discusses the attempt to steal the mineral-rich land by the local authorities, with the backing of the FBI, and Government sponsored Indian militias, which resulted in the deaths of hundreds of Indians during the 1970's.
http://www.amazon.co.uk/Spirit-Crazy-Horse-Peter-Matthiessen/dp/0140144560/ref=sr_1_3/202-6523891-7288668?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1178670791&sr=1-3


http://outside.away.com/magazine/0795/7f_leo1.html

MLC2006

Byrnzie wrote:

It's not called history when it concerns the present. Native Americans aren't a thing of the past, despite all efforts to make them that way. Try doing your homework.

Here's a book you may wanna read for starters. It concerns a Native American political prisoner who is still being held unjustly in Leavenworth prison for a crime he didn't commit, having already spent 35 years behind bars. It also discusses the attempt to steal the mineral-rich land by the local authorities, with the backing of the FBI, and Government sponsored Indian militias, which resulted in the deaths of hundreds of Indians during the 1970's.
http://www.amazon.co.uk/Spirit-Crazy-Horse-Peter-Matthiessen/dp/0140144560/ref=sr_1_3/202-6523891-7288668?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1178670791&sr=1-3


http://outside.away.com/magazine/0795/7f_leo1.html

ok, if you say "let's forget the past and talk about the present", then let's FORGET about the past. by that token, they absolutely have no right or claim to any land. thanks for agreeing with me.

the linked article of this topic has nothing to do with the US, but all the anti-American nitwits have made it about the US. so, history is written by the victors, and history says the Native Americans have no claim to this land. they have reservations if they want to live there, or if they want to assimilate into American society, they can do that. but nothing in America is free and they are OWED nothing.

Byrnzie

MLC2006 wrote:

ok, if you say "let's forget the past and talk about the present", then let's FORGET about the past. by that token, they absolutely have no right or claim to any land. thanks for agreeing with me.

the linked article of this topic has nothing to do with the US, but all the anti-American nitwits have made it about the US. so, history is written by the victors, and history says the Native Americans have no claim to this land. they have reservations if they want to live there, or if they want to assimilate into American society, they can do that. but nothing in America is free and they are OWED nothing.

Please quote me when I said "forget about the past". You can't. So your first sentence can be dismissed as irrelevant gibberish.

So the linked article has nothing to do with the U.S, but the original poster asked the question...

Restless Soul wrote:

I wonder if it could happen in the states?

Still, nevermind that. You obviously prefer to ignore certain facts about your country which are deemed unpalatable, and believe that anyone who mentions them is being 'anti-American'.
So you believe that 'history says the Native Americans have no claim to this land.' I think you'll find if you do your homework that Native Americans have every right to the land which was signed to them in the hundreds of legal treaties whose authority persists to this day.

mookie blaylock 10

Byrnzie wrote:

Admire me, admire my home
Admire my song, admire my clothes
An appetite for a nightly feast
Those ignorant Indians got nothin' on me
Nothin', why?
Because, it's evolution, baby!

well said, my friend.

some of the opinions and posts in this thread are simply very sad. so wrong. :(

Byrnzie

mookie blaylock 10 wrote:

well said, my friend.

some of the opinions and posts in this thread are simply very sad. so wrong. :(

Thanks. Seems that the John Wayne notion of Native Americans sadly still persists to this day for many people.

jeffbr

Byrnzie wrote:

So you believe that 'history says the Native Americans have no claim to this land.' I think you'll find if you do your homework that Native Americans have every right to the land which was signed to them in the hundreds of legal treaties whose authority persists to this day.

I definitely think both sides should honor treaties. But what is your proposal to ultimately move past this issue? Reparations? Deeding of more land? Deeding of all land? And who pays? Remember when the natives were first exploited "we Americans" were actually "you Brits". Shouldn't you guys pay?

Honestly, I have no idea how things could be "made right" so that everyone is happy. It is a very tough and emotional issue.

Byrnzie

jeffbr wrote:

I definitely think both sides should honor treaties. But what is your proposal to ultimately move past this issue? Reparations? Deeding of more land? Deeding of all land? And who pays? Remember when the natives were first exploited "we Americans" were actually "you Brits". Shouldn't you guys pay?

Honestly, I have no idea how things could be "made right" so that everyone is happy. It is a very tough and emotional issue.

I'm with you on this one. I don't know enough about the minutia regarding all of the individual claims, and treaties e.t.c. I do think, however, that the wider issues of land continuing to be stolen, and of the various other abuses which continue to this day should be made public. Too much about the Native American struggle has been, and continues to be, swept under the carpet.

RolandTD20Kdrummer

damn hippie Indians...

jeffbr

Byrnzie wrote:

I'm with you on this one. I don't know enough about the minutia regarding all of the individual claims, and treaties e.t.c. I do think, however, that the wider issues of land continuing to be stolen, and of the various other abuses which continue to this day should be made public. Too much about the Native American struggle has been, and continues to be, swept under the carpet.

As much as I enjoy arguing with you I can't here. I agree with what you've said. I'm from Washington State, and we have a large Native American population (relatively) and lots of reservation land. There have been battles here over land rights, fishing rights, gambling & tobacco sales, you name it. It is sad when the sides become so polarized. Things "feel" a bit better now than they did 20 years ago, but I don't live on a reservation, can't imagine daily life there and I know they still have many issues. Casinos are bringing money to tribes and many of the tribes are reinvesting that money into buying more land, and improving reservation services and infrastructure. The stereotypical "drunken indian" image is thankfully changing here to an extent. BUT now many white people seem to fear the "shrewed native american casino owners" and the Feds and State are always trying to find new ways to regulate them. Personally I'm happy to see their success and have only had good experiences when visiting local venues like Emerald Queen Casino and the White River Amphitheater for concerts. And Boom City for my illegal fireworks!

Ahnimus

Byrnzie wrote:

Some do, and some want to live in the traditional way and hold onto the ancestral ways. So what? Why are you so bothered by this?

I'm not. They are the ones bothered by life.

Byrnzie

jeffbr wrote:

And Boom City for my illegal fireworks!

Illegal fireworks? I like the sound of that!

Byrnzie

Ahnimus wrote:

I'm not. They are the ones bothered by life.

Que?

You lost me there Ryan.

Ahnimus

Byrnzie wrote:

Que?

You lost me there Ryan.

I think you lost me before you asked the quesiton

MLC2006

Byrnzie wrote:

Still, nevermind that. You obviously prefer to ignore certain facts about your country which are deemed unpalatable, and believe that anyone who mentions them is being 'anti-American'.
So you believe that 'history says the Native Americans have no claim to this land.' I think you'll find if you do your homework that Native Americans have every right to the land which was signed to them in the hundreds of legal treaties whose authority persists to this day.

yes, they do have the land that was signed to them, and from all the reservations I've been on, they seem to be doing pretty well with it too. and if land is illegally being taken from them now, sure it's wrong. so if you've got any proof of that happening, bring it out. and not some book on a cop killer fugitive that has absolutely nothing to do with the subject at hand.

Byrnzie

MLC2006 wrote:

yes, they do have the land that was signed to them, and from all the reservations I've been on, they seem to be doing pretty well with it too. and if land is illegally being taken from them now, sure it's wrong. so if you've got any proof of that happening, bring it out. and not some book on a cop killer fugitive that has absolutely nothing to do with the subject at hand.

The book I quoted has everything to do with it. But then you've not read it, so you wouldn't know.

Byrnzie

MLC2006 wrote:

so if you've got any proof of that happening, bring it out.

http://academic.udayton.edu/race/02rights/s98blak2.htm

http://www.cr.nps.gov/nagpra/DOCUMENTS/ClaimsMAP.htm

http://www.sacredland.org/historical_sites_pages/black_hills.html

surferdude

jeffbr wrote:

As much as I enjoy arguing with you I can't here. I agree with what you've said. I'm from Washington State, and we have a large Native American population (relatively) and lots of reservation land. There have been battles here over land rights, fishing rights, gambling & tobacco sales, you name it. It is sad when the sides become so polarized. Things "feel" a bit better now than they did 20 years ago, but I don't live on a reservation, can't imagine daily life there and I know they still have many issues. Casinos are bringing money to tribes and many of the tribes are reinvesting that money into buying more land, and improving reservation services and infrastructure. The stereotypical "drunken indian" image is thankfully changing here to an extent. BUT now many white people seem to fear the "shrewed native american casino owners" and the Feds and State are always trying to find new ways to regulate them. Personally I'm happy to see their success and have only had good experiences when visiting local venues like Emerald Queen Casino and the White River Amphitheater for concerts. And Boom City for my illegal fireworks!

So you are not at all bothered the racist laws that allow an Indian to open a caino on his/her land, but does not allow you? Race based laws bother and they should bother everyone. You cannot be for human rights and equality while backing race based laws.

hippiemom

surferdude wrote:

So you are not at all bothered the racist laws that allow an Indian to open a caino on his/her land, but does not allow you? Race based laws bother and they should bother everyone. You cannot be for human rights and equality while backing race based laws.

I support them being able to govern themselves on their own land and decide for themselves whether gambling is something that they want to have in their society. A race-based law would be one that said we can have a casino in downtown Cleveland, but only native Americans could run it and profit from it. What they do on their own territory should of course be up to them.