Led Zeppelin vs Pear Jam

laudenum

FinsburyParkCarrots wrote:

As a side note, I recently heard the 1966 song "I Must Be Mad" by the Birmingham band Craig (featuring Carl Palmer, later of ELP). Once you hear this, you'll never hear The Who's "I Can See For Miles" (1967) with the same reverence! The similarities are, let's say, a little too close to be co-incidental.

http://www.freakemporium.com/site/release/CR07002/releasepage.html

emerson lake and palmer
many a hazy eve listening to them

surferdude

FinsburyParkCarrots wrote:

I think they were at the centre of the the rock scene, particularly because after Hendrix died there was a gap in the US arena market and they were the obvious choice to fill it, but I don't think they were at the vanguard of music at the time. They weren't revolutionaries, in the early seventies, in the way that Can, Captain Beefheart or even Hawkwind were. That's not to discredit their influence on heavy rock (or even some punk), though. They consolidated a lot of disparate musical elements and sources, and they were fine musicians and entertainers.

They also influenced the whole business of rock music. Self produced, basically self managed, getting a big advance while unheard of, getting to that date the largest royalty rate, private label, completely changed the way touring was done and made it profitable for bands. They made advances in the recording studio and were always cutting edge for sight and sound live.

Led Zeppelin were pioneers on many, many levels. Plant ripped off lots of lyrics where he should given credit. But Page was pretty original, being much more influenced than ripping people off.

People still sample Bonham's drum sound some nearly 40 years later. No one will be sampling Matt C 40 years from now.

SLH916

FinsburyParkCarrots wrote:

As a side note, I recently heard the 1966 song "I Must Be Mad" by the Birmingham band Craig (featuring Carl Palmer, later of ELP). Once you hear this, you'll never hear The Who's "I Can See For Miles" (1967) with the same reverence! The similarities are, let's say, a little too close to be co-incidental.

http://www.freakemporium.com/site/release/CR07002/releasepage.html

I've never heard it, but I would love to. I can believe that Pete might have "borrowed" a bit. And jazz is still borrowing from Bach.

Led Zeppelin didn't start the revolution, they just made it popular, and I forgot about Captain Beefheart. There was nobody like Captain Beefheart before they were on the scene. I also forgot about the MC5. They brought it live every time. I think that late Zep maybe didn't bring it so much live.

Matty Boy

Led Zeppelin>Ten This was close but Zep 1 is still Better
Led Zeppelin 2> Vs Both great albums but I have to go with Zeppelin
Led Zeppelin 3> Vitalogy Not really close at all. Vitalogy has a lot of filler
Led Zeppelin 4> No Code Zeppeiln is just in another league

I could go on but I'm not going to bother. Pearl Jam just isn't in the same league as Zeppelin and you guys need to accept that.

Klumpie

Eddie: 'Theres no wrong or right, but Im sure theres good and bad'

Both bands are good, it's just personal taste which you will like more. So who likes Pearl Jam better isn't wrong and who likes Led Zeppelin better isn't right.

So all the discussion above me is useless.

hendrix78

SLH916 wrote:

I've never heard it, but I would love to. I can believe that Pete might have "borrowed" a bit. And jazz is still borrowing from Bach.

Led Zeppelin didn't start the revolution, they just made it popular, and I forgot about Captain Beefheart. There was nobody like Captain Beefheart before they were on the scene. I also forgot about the MC5. They brought it live every time. I think that late Zep maybe didn't bring it so much live.

Late Zep may have been a little too whacked out on heroin to brig it live, but early Zep kicks the shit out of any other live band I've ever heard. The BBC Sessions is the sound of a band that is truly badass and knows it.

FinsburyParkCarrots

surferdude wrote:

They also influenced the whole business of rock music. Self produced, basically self managed, getting a big advance while unheard of, getting to that date the largest royalty rate, private label, completely changed the way touring was done and made it profitable for bands. They made advances in the recording studio and were always cutting edge for sight and sound live.

Led Zeppelin were pioneers on many, many levels. Plant ripped off lots of lyrics where he should given credit. But Page was pretty original, being much more influenced than ripping people off.

People still sample Bonham's drum sound some nearly 40 years later. No one will be sampling Matt C 40 years from now.

Without a doubt, Peter Grant revolutionised the way bands were managed. He respected and worked with Zep, in their creative and business decisions. He was the antithesis of Mike Jeffrey, Hendrix's notorious co-manager.

I don't know if Zep, or their first incarnation as The New Yardbirds, were ever unheard of as such, though, to be fair. Jimmy Page, apart from being well-established in The post-Clapton era Yardbirds (a very high profile band), was a session man's session man with strong industry respect to his credit. He'd long planned a supergroup with Entwhistle and Moony, too. When Dreja dropped out of the initial New Yardbirds project, John Paul Jones was brought in, and he'd already made a good name for himself given his involvement on Their Satanic Majesties' Request, with the Stones. This was a band that was put together, a bit like The Cream, using the best of musicians.


As for advances in the studio, I think Eddie Kramer needs to take a bit of the credit, too. And we all know who he worked with, before Zep!

The Beatles founded Apple in 1968, The Stones founded Rolling Stones Records in 1970, and Zep finally founded Swan Song in 1974.

In terms of sight and sound live, I think that Zep were continuing the advancements in stage technology and endorsement of new PA and lighting systems that had begun with The Who and Hendrix, in late 1966. They were the big draw of the time, and their requirements would naturally be cutting edge. However, again, they weren't cutting edge on stage in the way that Hawkwind were, using their ring modulator to make the audience either fall over or actually shit themselves, according to what ways they turned the dials!

SLH916

Matty Boy wrote:

Led Zeppelin>Ten This was close but Zep 1 is still Better
Led Zeppelin 2> Vs Both great albums but I have to go with Zeppelin
Led Zeppelin 3> Vitalogy Not really close at all. Vitalogy has a lot of filler
Led Zeppelin 4> No Code Zeppeiln is just in another league

I could go on but I'm not going to bother. Pearl Jam just isn't in the same league as Zeppelin and you guys need to accept that.

You speak in such absolutes. Who do you think is in the same league as Zeppelin, and if Pearl Jam isn't even close, why do you like them?

My personal opinion, which obviously counts for nothing because it certainly isn't going to influence anyone, is that on the whole Eddie is a better songwriter than Plant/Page. That doesn't necessarily translate to better records because so much is in the delivery, but looking back from the perspective of more than 10 years, the songs on PJ 1-4 look pretty good when compared to Zep. And live, I would say that PJ, 16 years in, would win that one. Listen to some late period live Zep, and tell me what you think.

Now I'm a big Zep fan, but they don't walk on water, and who is better is a matter of opinion, but I can't really say that Zep blows Pearl Jam out of the water although are many days when I'll take Led Zeppelin IV over a Pearl Jam album.

SLH916

FinsburyParkCarrots wrote:

Without a doubt, Peter Grant revolutionised the way bands were managed. He respected and worked with Zep, in their creative and business decisions. He was the antithesis of Mike Jeffrey, Hendrix's notorious co-manager.

I don't know if Zep, or their first incarnation as The New Yardbirds, were ever unheard of as such, though, to be fair. Jimmy Page, apart from being well-established in The post-Clapton era Yardbirds (a very high profile band), was a session man's session man with strong industry respect to his credit. He'd long planned a supergroup with Entwhistle and Moony, too. When Dreja dropped out of the initial New Yardbirds project, John Paul Jones was brought in, and he'd already made a good name for himself given his involvement on Their Satanic Majesties' Request, with the Stones. This was a band that was put together, a bit like The Cream, using the best of musicians.


As for advances in the studio, I think Eddie Kramer needs to take a bit of the credit, too. And we all know who he worked with, before Zep!

The Beatles founded Apple in 1968, The Stones founded Rolling Stones Records in 1970, and Zep finally founded Swan Song in 1974.

In terms of sight and sound live, I think that Zep were continuing the advancements in stage technology and endorsement of new PA and lighting systems that had begun with The Who and Hendrix, in late 1966. They were the big draw of the time, and their requirements would naturally be cutting edge. However, again, they weren't cutting edge on stage in the way that Hawkwind were, using their ring modulator to make the audience either fall over or actually shit themselves, according to what ways they turned the dials!

You are very knowledgeable. Are you in the recording business or a rock critic?

FinsburyParkCarrots

SLH916 wrote:

You are very knowledgeable. Are you in the recording business or a rock critic?

Er, I just love music.

SLH916

FinsburyParkCarrots wrote:

Er, I just love music.

Good Enough.

UpSideDown

i dont think led zep is that good. ive never liked anything from them.

surferdude

FinsburyParkCarrots wrote:

I don't know if Zep, or their first incarnation as The New Yardbirds, were ever unheard of as such, though, to be fair. Jimmy Page, apart from being well-established in The post-Clapton era Yardbirds (a very high profile band), was a session man's session man with strong industry respect to his credit. He'd long planned a supergroup with Entwhistle and Moony, too. When Dreja dropped out of the initial New Yardbirds project, John Paul Jones was brought in, and he'd already made a good name for himself given his involvement on Their Satanic Majesties' Request, with the Stones. This was a band that was put together, a bit like The Cream, using the best of musicians.

They were unheard as a vehicle where Jimmy Page was the songwriter. Unlike Pearl Jam where the main songwriter was already established in mainstream music via Mother Love Bone.

I'd love to know the relationship between Eddie Kramer and Jimmy Page. I do know that Page has said he switched from kramer to make sure people realized that he was the man behind the sound and not Kramer. But that may be more ego than reality, who knows. But I've yet to see an interview with Kramer where he tries to take too much credit.

Led Zeppelin weren't the pioneers in inventing things but they were successful in bringing new ideas to the masses. The bands you mention are a bit like Tesla, he may have invented the radio but Marconi gets all the credit. He was just too far from the beaten track for people to take notice. Hawkwind is a bit of a "if a tree falls in a forest and no one is there does it make a sound" kind of band.

SLH916

surferdude wrote:

They were unheard as a vehicle where Jimmy Page was the songwriter. Unlike Pearl Jam where the main songwriter was already established in mainstream music via Mother Love Bone.

I'd love to know the relationship between Eddie Kramer and Jimmy Page. I do know that Page has said he switched from kramer to make sure people realized that he was the man behind the sound and not Kramer. But that may be more ego than reality, who knows. But I've yet to see an interview with Kramer where he tries to take too much credit.

Led Zeppelin weren't the pioneers in inventing things but they were successful in bringing new ideas to the masses. The bands you mention are a bit like Tesla, he may have invented the radio but Marconi gets all the credit. He was just too far from the beaten track for people to take notice. Hawkwind is a bit of a "if a tree falls in a forest and no one is there does it make a sound" kind of band.

Mother Love Bone was mainstream music? And the main songwriter as in Andy Wood/Stone Gossard?

FinsburyParkCarrots

surferdude wrote:

They were unheard as a vehicle where Jimmy Page was the songwriter. Unlike Pearl Jam where the main songwriter was already established in mainstream music via Mother Love Bone.

I'd love to know the relationship between Eddie Kramer and Jimmy Page. I do know that Page has said he switched from kramer to make sure people realized that he was the man behind the sound and not Kramer. But that may be more ego than reality, who knows. But I've yet to see an interview with Kramer where he tries to take too much credit.

Led Zeppelin weren't the pioneers in inventing things but they were successful in bringing new ideas to the masses. The bands you mention are a bit like Tesla, he may have invented the radio but Marconi gets all the credit. He was just too far from the beaten track for people to take notice. Hawkwind is a bit of a "if a tree falls in a forest and no one is there does it make a sound" kind of band.

Can, Beefheart and Hawkwind were very popular touring acts in Europe. In the early seventies, there was no Internet of course, and there was quite a divide between bands on both sides of the pond. Zep really made their bread in the States, whereas Beefheart was more appreciated here. Lots of people - musicians particularly - were influenced by these acts. I'd venture to argue that Hawkwind's influence is immeasurably larger than Zep's, in that they influenced Space Rock, punk, synth pop, contemporary electronic classical music, dance, rave, trip hop, garage and drum and bass, as well as the continuing evolution of folk rock. I'm not sure Zep's sphere of influence is that broad, outside of conventional rock.

FinsburyParkCarrots

Plus, Hawkwind had Miss Stacia. She left two huge impressions on rock.

surferdude

FinsburyParkCarrots wrote:

Plus, Hawkwind had Miss Stacia. She left two huge impressions on rock.

This side of the pond Hawkwind is pretty much unheard of, and Captain Beefheart may have been heard of (though unlikely) but I don't know a single person who could name a song by them.

SLH916

surferdude wrote:

This side of the pond Hawkwind is pretty much unheard of, and Captain Beefheart may have been heard of (though unlikely) but I don't know a single person who could name a song by them.

You've probably heard of them as Captain Beefheart and the Magic Band or just the Magic Band. They're best-known album was Trout Mask Replica. I'm from California, so when I was in college, listening to Captain Beefheart was cooler than listening to Pink Floyd and way cooler than listening to Led Zeppelin.

The White Stripes covered some of their tunes a while back.

I think that FinsburyParkCarrots would know this better than me, but I think that Captain Beefheart isn't better known because he dropped out of music to become an artist.

chadwick

im voting PJ on this one.
a hard choice tho really.
i guess im more in tune or flow with PJ music more so than LZ
although i have a intersting thought.
id like to hear PJ do a few zed leppelin tunes.
no quarter, immigrant song, kashmir, whole lotta love.
just to name a few.
songs like these totaly f'in rock.
PJ does a kickin ass job on that rain down on me tune from the who.
so yea, i wanna hear PJ do some zeppelin.
perhaps release a cd of nothing but cover tunes.

Twatay

surferdude wrote:

...Unlike Pearl Jam where the main songwriter was already established in mainstream music via Mother Love Bone...

when was mother love bone ever established in mainstream music????