Cobain was a wingeing prick!!

SlowFade

stargirl69 wrote:

Jamie

Pearl Jam always always had the edge and if Kurt hadnt done what he did to himself I truly doubt they would have had the career P.J have had.

ok, first of all, if nirvana had of continued, and grohl came in to his own as you said, they could have had some damn good records. Imagine the best of The colour and the Shape with some of kurt's material. Every nirvana record was great and different in it's own way, so i don't know how you could assume that pearl jam would have the longer/better career(even though binaural and riot act are both pretty weak offerings, and the S/T is a pretty bland attempt to bring the rock again).



Too many credit him with sole responsibility for the sea change that was 90's music.Where in reality it takes many many people to create change Kurt and Nirvana were only one of many bands most of whom were much finer that held testimony to rock music being about emotion and change rather than sunset strip make-up and trashy lyrics.Yes Nirvana changed the music world but they didnt do it alone and to think so is misguided.
Discuss?

Of course Nirvana didn't change it by itself, but they did manage to have the breakthough track and video to kill off the 80's shit, and lucky enough to have a record that backed it up. The media just focus on this because it needs a poster-boy to sell. Kurt was this poster-boy, and the fact that he killed himself only adds to this. It sucks that most people who bought into a trend forget that pearl jam are still putting out music, but who needs them? Pearl jam still have a devoted fan base, and I think the reason they give so much back is they respect the ones who stuck through with them, instead of buying into whatever the media shoves down their throats.

The one thing I will always respect kurt for was the fact he pushed a lot of great underground bands into the spotlight, and I know for myself, I wouldn't have heard so many great bands until much later in life. And I believe that Pearl Jam/Eddie have taken that from him as well, as they always seem to take great bands on tour with them, that they feel could use some exposure to a bigger audience. It's unfortunate that Kurt and Pearl Jam didn't have the chance to bury the hatchet, but I believe that they would have got along just fine now, and I think if kurt could see pearl jam now, surviving in a pretty shitty musical environment, he would have to be slightly jealous, as I think they have achieved what he would have wanted. sorry for the length......

MattCameronKicksButt

SlowFade wrote:

stargirl69 wrote:

Jamie



Too many credit him with sole responsibility for the sea change that was 90's music.Where in reality it takes many many people to create change Kurt and Nirvana were only one of many bands most of whom were much finer that held testimony to rock music being about emotion and change rather than sunset strip make-up and trashy lyrics.Yes Nirvana changed the music world but they didnt do it alone and to think so is misguided.
Discuss?

Of course Nirvana didn't change it by itself, but they did manage to have the breakthough track and video to kill off the 80's shit, and lucky enough to have a record that backed it up. The media just focus on this because it needs a poster-boy to sell. Kurt was this poster-boy, and the fact that he killed himself only adds to this. It sucks that most people who bought into a trend forget that pearl jam are still putting out music, but who needs them? Pearl jam still have a devoted fan base, and I think the reason they give so much back is they respect the ones who stuck through with them, instead of buying into whatever the media shoves down their throats.

The one thing I will always respect kurt for was the fact he pushed a lot of great underground bands into the spotlight, and I know for myself, I wouldn't have heard so many great bands until much later in life. And I believe that Pearl Jam/Eddie have taken that from him as well, as they always seem to take great bands on tour with them, that they feel could use some exposure to a bigger audience. It's unfortunate that Kurt and Pearl Jam didn't have the chance to bury the hatchet, but I believe that they would have got along just fine now, and I think if kurt could see pearl jam now, surviving in a pretty shitty musical environment, he would have to be slightly jealous, as I think they have achieved what he would have wanted. sorry for the length......

Discuss? You've just said it all for me.

releeseme

catefrances wrote:

fans? LMAO!!! oh no i can't end my miserable life because my fans will be so so sad. are you kidding me? pfft. :rolleyes:

you've got no idea whether he was thinking about his family or not. how the fuck could you? and i imagine, that his family took up a fair amount of his time whilst making up his mind whether to end his life. it's such a crock of shit to think people who commit suicide just do it blindly without any thought for those they leave behind. that somehow making such an absolute decision is easy.

and hey! don't feel sorry for me. i don't need to be thinking of your bullshit faux sincerity.

We'll just have to agree to disagree. I say he was a loser you say hero.

Its not faux sincerity, its just plain honesty...

I really don't give fuck what the guy was thinking. He was obvoiusly a very weak minded person. Alot of people who are hardcore drug addicts are. He had more than most people will never have a fraction of and he put a shotgun to his head and pulled the trigger. Put him on a pedastool all you want, but I think that is just fuckin pitiful.

catefrances

releeseme wrote:

We'll just have to agree to disagree. I say he was a loser you say hero.

Its not faux sincerity, its just plain honesty...

I really don't give fuck what the guy was thinking. He was obvoiusly a very weak minded person. Alot of people who are hardcore drug addicts are. He had more than most people will never have a fraction of and he put a shotgun to his head and pulled the trigger. Put him on a pedastool all you want, but I think that is just fuckin pitiful.

i've never said cobain was a hero. and never have i held kurt cobain up to be one. i have never put cobain on a pedestal. sure nirvana are my fave band but it's about the music not the tragic bullshit that went on behind the scenes. always has been, always will be.
and just so you know the only two people i vaguely put on a pedestal(for want of a better word) are MLK and henry rollins.

DriftingByTheStorm

FinsburyParkCarrots wrote:

My abiding memory of Kurt was him moaning in interviews, and pretending he liked Shonen Knife, who were as horrible as Clive James in stockings and suspenders.

Then he died, and shops in Sunderland that usually sold poor quality posters of East 17 and Take That had a couple of Kurts in their window.

Jeez, Fins.
???

Kurt was not a well balanced person. His suicide demonstrates that clearly.

If you recall, Eddie used to whine and moan a LOT in interviews too (mostly about how horrible being famous it... remember?) ... again, he wasn't exactly in the greatest frame of mind coming off a not-so-jolly child hood ... well, i reckon kurt had it a bit worse off, and probably suffered more imbalance because of it (and arguably by his inate being, his nature, as well) ...

kurt was a horrible addict, a rather immature person (as evidenced by a good few of his journal writings), a tortured soul, and as imperfect a being as one could find ...

... but you know what?

kurt was beautiful too.
he spoke so softly yet gave voice to so many...

and despite his antics, and his unfortunate musings about eddie, and his untimely demise ... despite all that, he really just wanted everyone to be well ... and it's a shame he couldn't achieve that himself, and its ashame he couldn't believe that the fans would let him just be well, and its ashame people still can't let him just be well ...

clearly people like eddie and michael stipe recognize that ... the idea that kurt could be a beautiful human, a flawed human, and a person that desperately needed help (though too late did they recognize this) ...

why can't people just accept these truths.
kurt was part of a movement that, even when it was at odds with itself, was a movement of hope joy and empowerment for a whole generation ... don't get so jaded that you can't remember how great it felt to see those bands on top of the world and leading a generation to question authority, the status quo, the mainstream media, and the politics of power.

remember that what became mainstream really never was meant to be as such, and only after the fact, once it had exploded in everyones face ... only then did it become so easy to criticize ...

kurt played because he had too.
it was in him. it is what woke him and what in the end put him to bed.

and, for the record, Rock Animals by Shonen Knife is pure musical bliss. Shonen Knife are a fun quirky band that take a nod from The Ramones and add their little japanese quirks and girlish ways to the fray. They are also a band that occasionaly write a song that can move you to the core ... listen to "Music Square" for example.

deadnothingbetter

jamie uk wrote:

OK, I said it 'out loud'. But I remember it like this... I heard Nirvana in 1991, thought they were very special. I heard PJ early 1992, instantly I preffered what they did-more rock than punk, but every bit as special. I still loved Nirvana, but Cobain went on that anti-PJ thing for ages, and he got right up my fuckin nose. I didn't even buy a ticket for the gig sheduled at Cardiff in 1994, I'd seen them allready and wasn't feeling the need to see the whingeing fucker again. He dissed Ed so much in the press, I ended up really disliking the tosser. I still loved his records, still do -even tho' they aint as good as PJ's- yet I thought he became a right fanny. I know Ed forgave him, but I wouldn't have-and indeeed I haven't really. I still think of him as a great artist who offered so much, yet counteracted his vision with his 'blinkered and judgemental' views and opinions of others. I couldn't stand the sight of the prick and his PJ moans by the time he did what he did! Sorry to Ed, I know you accepted his apology-but I didn't, and I thought in 92 as I do now, that Pearl Jam are a finer band than Nirvana-and it's been proven I reckon, so screw him!!.
juk
wHAT YOU RECKON?
RSVP.

i personally think eddie vedder is the coolest dude from all the 90's... kurt cobain did kinda annoy me with his flamboyant attitude... and everything was about doom ang gloom for him.

eddie wasn't like that... he was a lot cooler. but i don't know about the whole political side of eddie though, that kinda annoys me. i mean yeah sure, bush sucks. but i don't see why we'd have to listen to songs about bush.... that's why i'm not into pearl jam's new album. :(

Prioronfire22

I'll never get why people like Nirvana over the likes of PJ Soundgarden or AIC, it really blows my mind. The other three for me are on a level that is so far away from Nirvana.

DriftingByTheStorm

Junkhead Aic wrote:

I'll never get why people like Nirvana over the likes of PJ Soundgarden or AIC, it really blows my mind. The other three for me are on a level that is so far away from Nirvana.

Different strokes for different blokes, mate.

For arguments sake, at least Nirvana's last album didn't suck like AIC's last album.

jamie uk

Here's my last thoughts on this. A few have said positive stuff about Kurt, fair enough points, but I always say do whatever you like-and as long as it doesn't hurt others, it's not a problem.
That's where Kurt let himself down, he expressed his dissatisfaction with other people, and what they did. Unprovoked, he would pass judgement on individuals, and individual groups of people. There's no need, never a need for it, and he let himself down so much by doing so.Yes he was a moaning bastard, I even once saw an interview where he was moaning about taking heroin was really boring!!! Don't fuckin bother spending thousands of $$ on the stuff everyday then, I thought-I got the magazine interview where he's moaning he doesn't want fans of Guns and Roses to buy his records-I mean he signed to the same label as them for crying out loud.
And as a foot note, I get fed up with Ed's politics a bit, yes Bush is an arse, yes war is wrong, yes a lot of stuff...but when you're a rich rock star I reckon it's very easy to have idealist views, and very easy to take swipes at people in politics.Personally I wouldn't give any politician the time of day, whoever they may be, or whatever they profess to believe. They all lie, tell you what you want to hear just to get votes, career politicians the lot of them-not a noble soul to be found in their midst these days.
(judgemental, moi? surely not) juk

deadnothingbetter

Junkhead Aic wrote:

I'll never get why people like Nirvana over the likes of PJ Soundgarden or AIC, it really blows my mind. The other three for me are on a level that is so far away from Nirvana.

eeesh.... well, i don't know about that.

i think it's the other way around. sg, pj and aic all have the same... uhhhmmm... what do you call it... uhh, i dunno... i guess what i'm trying to say is that those three bands will actually put like a long solo somewhere in a song. as for nirvana, well, they're more punk... i really love that bleach album.... i think it's their best album and most beloved by the "indie" freaks. i think.... their songs are less "complicated" than the other 3 grunge bands. all that nirvana was in it for was just to put on a killer hard rock song and kick ass with it.... milk it, for instance, is probably my favorite nirvana song just cause it's so creative, fun and raw all at once.

nirvana is a great band indeed. i'd say their my favorite grunge band.... but i don't know, it's hard to tell.

catefrances

jamie uk wrote:

Here's my last thoughts on this. A few have said positive stuff about Kurt, fair enough points, but I always say do whatever you like-and as long as it doesn't hurt others, it's not a problem.
That's where Kurt let himself down, he expressed his dissatisfaction with other people, and what they did. Unprovoked, he would pass judgement on individuals, and individual groups of people. There's no need, never a need for it, and he let himself down so much by doing so.Yes he was a moaning bastard, I even once saw an interview where he was moaning about taking heroin was really boring!!! Don't fuckin bother spending thousands of $$ on the stuff everyday then, I thought-I got the magazine interview where he's moaning he doesn't want fans of Guns and Roses to buy his records-I mean he signed to the same label as them for crying out loud.
And as a foot note, I get fed up with Ed's politics a bit, yes Bush is an arse, yes war is wrong, yes a lot of stuff...but when you're a rich rock star I reckon it's very easy to have idealist views, and very easy to take swipes at people in politics.Personally I wouldn't give any politician the time of day, whoever they may be, or whatever they profess to believe. They all lie, tell you what you want to hear just to get votes, career politicians the lot of them-not a noble soul to be found in their midst these days.
(judgemental, moi? surely not) juk

OMG jamie, how much do you listen to ed that you get sick of hearing his politics?

jamie uk

catefrances wrote:

OMG jamie, how much do you listen to ed that you get sick of hearing his politics?

Hi Cate, look I'm off to work in a minute, but don't worry I'm not an Eddie groupie-but I love the band and now and again I'm listening to a bootleg, or something, and he goes off on one and I think "oh give it a rest man", I've thought the same thing whilst watching Robert Plant before now-he can be as bad. I'm not sure anyone who appears on the Times Rich List can hold realistic political views-or is that me being judgemental? I'll pm you an apology, I didn't realise Kurt was your top man. Right I'm off.juk

catefrances

jamie uk wrote:

Hi Cate, look I'm off to work in a minute, but don't worry I'm not an Eddie groupie-but I love the band and now and again I'm listening to a bootleg, or something, and he goes off on one and I think "oh give it a rest man", I've thought the same thing whilst watching Robert Plant before now-he can be as bad. I'm not sure anyone who appears on the Times Rich List can hold realistic political views-or is that me being judgemental? I'll pm you an apology, I didn't realise Kurt was your top man. Right I'm off.juk

you didn't read my posts at all did you?

nirvana are my fave band. that does not make kurt my top man. see post #45. no apology necessary jamie.

FinsburyParkCarrots

DriftingByTheStorm wrote:

Jeez, Fins.
???

Kurt was not a well balanced person. His suicide demonstrates that clearly.

If you recall, Eddie used to whine and moan a LOT in interviews too (mostly about how horrible being famous it... remember?) ... again, he wasn't exactly in the greatest frame of mind coming off a not-so-jolly child hood ... well, i reckon kurt had it a bit worse off, and probably suffered more imbalance because of it (and arguably by his inate being, his nature, as well) ...

kurt was a horrible addict, a rather immature person (as evidenced by a good few of his journal writings), a tortured soul, and as imperfect a being as one could find ...

... but you know what?

kurt was beautiful too.
he spoke so softly yet gave voice to so many...

and despite his antics, and his unfortunate musings about eddie, and his untimely demise ... despite all that, he really just wanted everyone to be well ... and it's a shame he couldn't achieve that himself, and its ashame he couldn't believe that the fans would let him just be well, and its ashame people still can't let him just be well ...

clearly people like eddie and michael stipe recognize that ... the idea that kurt could be a beautiful human, a flawed human, and a person that desperately needed help (though too late did they recognize this) ...

why can't people just accept these truths.
kurt was part of a movement that, even when it was at odds with itself, was a movement of hope joy and empowerment for a whole generation ... don't get so jaded that you can't remember how great it felt to see those bands on top of the world and leading a generation to question authority, the status quo, the mainstream media, and the politics of power.

remember that what became mainstream really never was meant to be as such, and only after the fact, once it had exploded in everyones face ... only then did it become so easy to criticize ...

kurt played because he had too.
it was in him. it is what woke him and what in the end put him to bed.

and, for the record, Rock Animals by Shonen Knife is pure musical bliss. Shonen Knife are a fun quirky band that take a nod from The Ramones and add their little japanese quirks and girlish ways to the fray. They are also a band that occasionaly write a song that can move you to the core ... listen to "Music Square" for example.

Yeah, but I hated his music too. I hate most heavy rock, bar Hendrix and PJ.

Evacuation Rules

Kurt was no different from John Lennon...

- married a bitch
- used heroin
- abondoned his child
- talked shit on other bands in interviews
- was a great songwriter but not a virtuoso at any instrument

So, what's the fucking difference?

Aw...Kurt made fun of Pearl Jam once. How dare he.

Whiney little babies...

wavescamecrashing

I could not give a toss about this thread.

I'm posting to ask the people who are shitting on Cobain for his suicide what makes them so sure?

There is no way a verdict of suicide could be called on that case if it were taken up by a competant police department.

It really gets to me because of how it affects Kurt's legacy and how some nirvana fans go down the road of copycat suicides because there is no conclusive evidence that it was suicide.

Dead men dont pull triggers.

12345AGNST1

i bought the nirvana box set awhile ago.....it really made me realize they are quite a shitty band. even the songs i liked i thought they were still shitty. i regret spending like 70 bucks on that.

releeseme

catefrances wrote:

i've never said cobain was a hero. and never have i held kurt cobain up to be one. i have never put cobain on a pedestal. sure nirvana are my fave band but it's about the music not the tragic bullshit that went on behind the scenes. always has been, always will be.
and just so you know the only two people i vaguely put on a pedestal(for want of a better word) are MLK and henry rollins.

Its all good. I really liked Nirvana back in the day. I guess I just hate how it all turned out. Such a waste of talent...

catefrances

releeseme wrote:

Its all good. I really liked Nirvana back in the day. I guess I just hate how it all turned out. Such a waste of talent...

i agree it couldn't have turned out worse and it was a waste of talent. but you know what? it wasn't my life. shit happens, people deal.

Cosmo

Well... if you were around in 1991 when 'Nevermind' broke through... you understand the reasons WHY it broke through. Regardless of what anyone feels about Kurt Cobain... personally or otherwise (put me down for 'otherwise' because I did not know Kurt Cobain, personally)... you cannot discount the effect that Nirvana had on kids in America (and other places in the world) in 1991.