Transgendered/Trans-Identifying Athletes

lastexitlondon

Yeah we get that here too it's just pathetic to me. I guess I'm old

Gern Blansten

If you were to ask someone "did you hear back from him yet?"

should that really be "did you hear back from them yet?"....even though you are referring to a singular person?

lastexitlondon

It's like "got ya" you said it wrong 

lastexitlondon

Exactly I'm 49 I don't need stupid games  to make out I'm trying to offend. Out of nothing 

HughFreakingDillon

Gern Blansten said:

pjl44 said:

The pronoun thing is tricky. You see the exercise get co-opted by narcissists which leaves many people cynical. I worked with someone in HR who requested you use "she/they/elle." You get hit with some boutique blends and the threat of a scolding if you don't get it right. It's a shame that the upshot is the cynicism winds up extending to trans women who would just like to be she and trans men who would just like to be he.

I'm surprised at the number of emails I receive where pronouns are listed in peoples signature lines. We really need this now?

my company instituted, well, maybe I'll say "strongly encouraged" a policy of your pronouns in your signature. Funny, a few years back they told people it was against company policy to alter your company signature at all. No more designations, like CGA, etc, but now they want everyone to add how they identify themselves. 

I'm not anti trans by an stretch, but I guess part of me wonders why I have to participate in such things to make the 0.01% feel comfortable. We're now in a situation where people are openly wondering "why doesn't Jim have his pronouns in his signature? he must be a BIGOT". 

like when kramer wouldn't wear the AIDS ribbon during the AIDS walk. that was years ahead of its time. 

Gern Blansten

HughFreakingDillon

Joe Rogan is a meathead on many many subjects. But I have to agree with him on this one (and most of you in this thread). Pro trans pro what you do with your own life. But when it starts to affect, or even potentially affect others' safety, that's where I draw the line. 

brianlux

What next?  Add species?

Dear They,

Nice to year from you,

Love,

Brian, he, Human, homo sapien, former Neanderthal

lastexitlondon

Even that will probably offend some being somewhere 

FiveBelow

If biological females/males were only allowed to compete with others of the same biology, none of this would exist. The waters are being muddied for no reason. Identify however you choose, but default to science when competition is involved. If hormone therapy is being used, that could easily be outlined in PEDs and regulated if deemed advantageous. Seems pretty straightforward to me. Sorry this happened, hopefully your daughter makes a full recovery, and common sense makes a comeback. 

curmudgeoness

brianlux said:

Right!  Same here.  I don't want to offend anyone.  

But what concerns me is that I think a lot of (especially) younger people are making rash decisions about sexuality based on emotion, without a balance of clear thinking.  

I don't think there is anything at all wrong with questioning.  Paul Westerberg said in a song called "Sixteen Blue" this:  "You're wondering to yourself that you might be gay."  Nothing wrong with that.  I asked myself that very question- probably because I've had gay friends I really care for.  But, sorry guys, I don't want to sleep with you.  I'm not attracted to you that way. 

I'm far from an expert in the rise of genderqueer/ trans people. I'll just share here what I've observed.

1) There is some thought that a growing number of young females are identifying as transmen as a reaction against the extreme pressures they are subjected to via social media (impossible beauty norms, gross sexualization, etc.); I present this without comment or judgment.

2) There is a particular variant of OCD that looks like gender dysphoria (the feeling that one's gender does not correspond to one's biological sex). I have a child with pretty debilitating OCD and other anxiety issues; as part of this, they say that they have "gender issues," even though, in this case, the simplest and most obvious explanation is a galloping case of OCD. 

3) Related to the above, I think that, for some young people, manifesting a trans identity or asserting nonbinary status is a way to attempt to exert control over their lives, their stresses, their personal issues. I am *not at all* being dismissive of these struggles when I say that it reminds me of when I developed an eating disorder in my late teens; that was my way of having a tiny bit of control over one corner of my messy life. 

4) I think there is a certain amount of peer pressure/ trying on new identities that is happening. My child's entire peer group in college was queer/trans/poly/asexual -- sometimes, it seemed, all at once. My kid has a laundry basket full of disabilities but felt ashamed of their "privilege" amongst their LGBTQIA+ friends. And I think they felt that they ought to be questioning their own identity as a result. This isn't the first time in history that young people have gone through experimental phases or asked themselves who they really are.

5) None of the above is meant to dismiss the reality of gender dysphoria. I believe that it's real, and, as a woman of a certain age, I'm all too aware of the power of hormones, so I have empathy for people who seek hormone therapy to live more authentic lives. 

That said, I earnestly believe that people who think they are trans ought to first address any other psychological challenges they face. Meaning: I've met happy, healthy, well-adjusted trans people, and I've met people who transitioned and continued to have real struggles. Personal example: I've struggled with depression for years. I thought that moving from a place I loathed to a much more desirable place would make me feel better -- so I moved and was disappointed to find that I was still depressed, even though I was glad I had moved.

If someone thinks they have gender dysphoria when they actually have OCD, they could put their bodies through some tough changes only to find that they're still struggling and unhappy. 

cblock4life

mace1229 said:

mickeyrat said:

Let me back up here I'm sorry your daughter got injured I'm not a parent so I can't imagine the fear you must have experienced watching your child injured on the field but having played the sport myself I know that a fact is that the force applied is only relative to the velocity of the ball that was punched,  so it sounds to me like your daughter got a really good boot on the ball . that the same or similar injury could have occurred had that same ball hit the post or the crossbar . so I think honestly this has less to do with the fact that the genetic male punched the ball then it was just a freak play

So a bunt is the same as a swing? I’ve never seen a home run off a bunt before, but if only the velocity of the ball matters and not the force of the object hitting it, then we should be seeing HR bunts.
Of course a male with more mass and more muscles is going to head a ball back harder than a smaller, lighter female and increase the likelihood of injury. You don’t need a physics degree to understand that. But good effort to blame her daughter and lack of technique. 

First, I’ve seen a bunt turn into an in the park Homer based on errors, so never say never.  I understand what you meant, I just don't understand why you’re so mean and defensive to so many on here who don’t deserve it.  But hey, good effort making people feel like crap while they’re apologizing. 

Spunkie

DarthMaeglin said:

Gern Blansten said:

brianlux said:

Spunkie said:

I wouldn't want to see her because of the general neutral category whatever that's called again 

No one has explained that to me to my satisfaction.  A human being is either a male, a female, a hermaphrodite, or has been surgically and chemically altered to become the opposite sex they were born as (a practice that to me sounds like mutilation, but if someone wants to do that, that's their business and their right).  Is there really such a thing as a gender neutral human?  I doubt it.

Yeah I don't get it either. I don't want to intentionally ever insult someone or make them feel like a lesser being but I don't get the they/them stuff.

Sounds schizophrenic to me. Like there is a male and female being existing in the same body which isn't the case.

He or her...that's it. If you are a he that is now a her that's fine. But you are one or the other. 

Part of why I’ve incorporated they/them is as a potential compromise for those who have difficulty referring to trans people with their identified gender pronouns. I strongly feel that people should be allowed to be uncomfortable with this whole concept and not be labeled transphobic or something. We need patience and openness on both sides.

 I can’t truly conceive it but it has to be an awkward and strange place to exist when one genuinely feels out of sync with their own body in this way and can’t feel anything but sympathy for them.

However I do think that when it comes to sport, regardless of where someone is in the transitioning process they should compete in their birth gender until a third (actually there should be 2 new divisions for each transition, male-to-female and female-to-male) division is established. And on some levels I still feel badly making that statement but the facts of biology are already well established here.

I agree. Well said.

eeriepadave

I'm very LDBTQ+ but I don't think it should be allowed.

mace1229

Spunkie said:

I mean can a 14-year-old genetic male even legally be a female in BC? I don't know man.

Depends what you mean by that. Can they undergo surgery? Probably not. Can they say they identify as the other sex and require others to respect that? Probably. 

That doesn’t mean they should get to play in whatever sports league though.

mace1229

Gern Blansten said:

pjl44 said:

The pronoun thing is tricky. You see the exercise get co-opted by narcissists which leaves many people cynical. I worked with someone in HR who requested you use "she/they/elle." You get hit with some boutique blends and the threat of a scolding if you don't get it right. It's a shame that the upshot is the cynicism winds up extending to trans women who would just like to be she and trans men who would just like to be he.

I'm surprised at the number of emails I receive where pronouns are listed in peoples signature lines. We really need this now?

I found it kinda funny reading these comments. Because it’s exactly how I felt, I was surprised I wasn’t alone here. Guess being confused by the gender neutral is more common than I thought.
What really gets me is those half trans. What I mean, are those who make the half attempt at it. There’s this “guy” at a store I regularly go to. I don’t know how he identifies, but you can clearly see he’s a biological male. But he wears a skirt, sloppy make up, and has breast implants. But then sports a 1/8 inch beard. 

Do whatever you want when you’re an adult, but some things I just don’t understand.

HughFreakingDillon

mace1229 said:

Gern Blansten said:

pjl44 said:

The pronoun thing is tricky. You see the exercise get co-opted by narcissists which leaves many people cynical. I worked with someone in HR who requested you use "she/they/elle." You get hit with some boutique blends and the threat of a scolding if you don't get it right. It's a shame that the upshot is the cynicism winds up extending to trans women who would just like to be she and trans men who would just like to be he.

I'm surprised at the number of emails I receive where pronouns are listed in peoples signature lines. We really need this now?

I found it kinda funny reading these comments. Because it’s exactly how I felt, I was surprised I wasn’t alone here. Guess being confused by the gender neutral is more common than I thought.
What really gets me is those half trans. What I mean, are those who make the half attempt at it. There’s this “guy” at a store I regularly go to. I don’t know how he identifies, but you can clearly see he’s a biological male. But he wears a skirt, sloppy make up, and has breast implants. But then sports a 1/8 inch beard. 

Do whatever you want when you’re an adult, but some things I just don’t understand.

that's nothing more than an expression of one's self. It doesn't necessarily need to be labelled, and not everyone will understand mine, not everyone will understand theirs. 

Spunkie

Well if children self identify as whatever they pleasea, they're allowed on the field in that gender category, so I can challenge it, or not.

brianlux

curmudgeoness said:

brianlux said:

Right!  Same here.  I don't want to offend anyone.  

But what concerns me is that I think a lot of (especially) younger people are making rash decisions about sexuality based on emotion, without a balance of clear thinking.  

I don't think there is anything at all wrong with questioning.  Paul Westerberg said in a song called "Sixteen Blue" this:  "You're wondering to yourself that you might be gay."  Nothing wrong with that.  I asked myself that very question- probably because I've had gay friends I really care for.  But, sorry guys, I don't want to sleep with you.  I'm not attracted to you that way. 

I'm far from an expert in the rise of genderqueer/ trans people. I'll just share here what I've observed.

1) There is some thought that a growing number of young females are identifying as transmen as a reaction against the extreme pressures they are subjected to via social media (impossible beauty norms, gross sexualization, etc.); I present this without comment or judgment.

2) There is a particular variant of OCD that looks like gender dysphoria (the feeling that one's gender does not correspond to one's biological sex). I have a child with pretty debilitating OCD and other anxiety issues; as part of this, they say that they have "gender issues," even though, in this case, the simplest and most obvious explanation is a galloping case of OCD. 

3) Related to the above, I think that, for some young people, manifesting a trans identity or asserting nonbinary status is a way to attempt to exert control over their lives, their stresses, their personal issues. I am *not at all* being dismissive of these struggles when I say that it reminds me of when I developed an eating disorder in my late teens; that was my way of having a tiny bit of control over one corner of my messy life. 

4) I think there is a certain amount of peer pressure/ trying on new identities that is happening. My child's entire peer group in college was queer/trans/poly/asexual -- sometimes, it seemed, all at once. My kid has a laundry basket full of disabilities but felt ashamed of their "privilege" amongst their LGBTQIA+ friends. And I think they felt that they ought to be questioning their own identity as a result. This isn't the first time in history that young people have gone through experimental phases or asked themselves who they really are.

5) None of the above is meant to dismiss the reality of gender dysphoria. I believe that it's real, and, as a woman of a certain age, I'm all too aware of the power of hormones, so I have empathy for people who seek hormone therapy to live more authentic lives. 

That said, I earnestly believe that people who think they are trans ought to first address any other psychological challenges they face. Meaning: I've met happy, healthy, well-adjusted trans people, and I've met people who transitioned and continued to have real struggles. Personal example: I've struggled with depression for years. I thought that moving from a place I loathed to a much more desirable place would make me feel better -- so I moved and was disappointed to find that I was still depressed, even though I was glad I had moved.

If someone thinks they have gender dysphoria when they actually have OCD, they could put their bodies through some tough changes only to find that they're still struggling and unhappy. 

Interesting thoughts worthy of a thoughtful reply.

1.   I can see to some degree that, yes, media places pressure on females are identifying as transmen.   FB especially with all of it soft porn "reels"  (more like, really?).  The whole image all that stuff projected on (and often by) women, especially young women, has got to be a major turn off for girls who are not into being internet sluts.  It's all very sad, really.

2.  Interesting thoughts about OCD.  I have a number of little rituals I have to go through just to leave the house, so I can understand how that could be a factor because OCD is all about trying to rid oneself of unwanted thoughts.

3.  Yeah, I get that as well.  Also know that it's really smart to be aware of ones issues (I have plenty, doesn't everyone?) and learn/find good coping methods that move one forward.  If being trans really does do that, great.  Why not?  But I'm not convinced every young person who has gone that rout (and I personally know a few who I am close to who have do so completely) has really found what they're looking for.  I really can't go into more detail than that, but I've seen what I'm trying to get at here.  And I'm not saying I'm against trans (I'm not).  What I'm not in favor of is making rash decisions or engaging in avoidance.

4.  Peer pressure.  Yeah, heck yeah.  Even withput that peer pressure, I don't think it's unusual at all to at least wonder what being a different sex would be like or to have a different sexual orientation.  I've certainly gone through that contemplative process and it did not leave me feeling ashamed or guilty- no, not at all.  But if I had a young adult kid in my life who was considering something more permanent, I would say, "Hey, question, that's cool.  Just look before you leap." 

5.  Yes, I absolutely agree.  I would never question the reality of anyone going through gender questioning.  

My general response to any of these kinds of issues is formed around a sincere hope for people to find what works best for them- not just in the short run, but in a way that is lasting.  At least to what ever degree.  Finding one's way in this world is a huge struggle.  I've done that work for years, and I still find myself hanging by a thread at times.  It's really tough!

Thanks for taking time to bring well thought out ideas here, C.  You know I always wish you the best!

HughFreakingDillon

Spunkie said:

Well if children self identify as whatever they pleasea, they're allowed on the field in that gender category, so I can challenge it, or not.

would be a rough road. I think these things need to be challenged. But I certainly wouldn't judge you for not taking it up. 

Spiritual_Chaos

Does miss Pipsqueek feel better? 

Spiritual_Chaos

Gern Blansten said:

If you were to ask someone "did you hear back from him yet?"

should that really be "did you hear back from them yet?"....even though you are referring to a singular person?

Isn't that how you do it when you are unsure or the gender is irrelevant in some context? 

In Swedish we have an old word, that has become popular and established again in this modern world of ours, for it:

Han = He
Hon = She
Hen = They (unspecific gender)

mickeyrat

provencial championship.  define that please.  like a single league tournament or mutilple leagues?

how many games in the season and how many more leading up to this and for this tournament?

Gern Blansten

mace1229 said:

Gern Blansten said:

pjl44 said:

The pronoun thing is tricky. You see the exercise get co-opted by narcissists which leaves many people cynical. I worked with someone in HR who requested you use "she/they/elle." You get hit with some boutique blends and the threat of a scolding if you don't get it right. It's a shame that the upshot is the cynicism winds up extending to trans women who would just like to be she and trans men who would just like to be he.

I'm surprised at the number of emails I receive where pronouns are listed in peoples signature lines. We really need this now?

I found it kinda funny reading these comments. Because it’s exactly how I felt, I was surprised I wasn’t alone here. Guess being confused by the gender neutral is more common than I thought.
What really gets me is those half trans. What I mean, are those who make the half attempt at it. There’s this “guy” at a store I regularly go to. I don’t know how he identifies, but you can clearly see he’s a biological male. But he wears a skirt, sloppy make up, and has breast implants. But then sports a 1/8 inch beard. 

Do whatever you want when you’re an adult, but some things I just don’t understand.

Yeah I hate to make fun but some of it is really ridiculous. You described perfectly a guy that I encountered at Kroger a few years ago. He was a worker there and I'm sure Kroger was hiring anyone they could because it was likely in 2020/2021 when covid was fucking everything up.

If I would have decided to go to goodwill and buy the most ridiculous frumpy dress and wear it I would have looked just like him. I didn't stare or laugh in his face but it was shocking in a really funny way to me.

Gern Blansten

Spiritual_Chaos said:

Gern Blansten said:

If you were to ask someone "did you hear back from him yet?"

should that really be "did you hear back from them yet?"....even though you are referring to a singular person?

Isn't that how you do it when you are unsure or the gender is irrelevant in some context? 

In Swedish we have an old word, that has become popular and established again in this modern world of ours, for it:

Han = He
Hon = She
Hen = They (unspecific gender)

I honestly don't know. I'm not surprised that Sweden would have a better way to handle it then the good old intolerant USA.

Gern Blansten

Again...not to make fun, I just observe some things as this world evolves that I find funny.

My wife has a facebook friend who we've known for several years. Her daughter has always been a bit tomboyish but she recently "came out" as they/them (new to me still but whatever...aren't you really just coming out as bisexual or homosexual?...no idea) and she felt like she had to make a big production on facebook about it. She posted a picture with her and the kid (maybe 15-16?) looked like she was dressed up for Halloween. Hair dyed black, nose ring, very odd clothing, etc. 

I was mainly laughing at the mom for feeling like she had to publish that on FB for everyone to see.

You look back on her timeline and there are fairly recent family vacation photos where everyone is dressed normal, smiling for the camera, posing in front of landmarks, etc, then all of a sudden cousin IT appears with the announcement.

My guess is that she'll be back to normal in a year or so.

curmudgeoness

Gern Blansten said:

My wife has a facebook friend who we've known for several years. Her daughter has always been a bit tomboyish but she recently "came out" as they/them (new to me still but whatever...aren't you really just coming out as bisexual or homosexual?...no idea)

Gender identity and sexual preference are two different things. 

Gender identity = regardless of your chromosomes, do you feel more like a man? a woman? neither?

Bisexual = you are attracted to both males and females, regardless of your own gender. (Some people now prefer "pansexual," which means attracted to any gender identity.)

Gern Blansten

curmudgeoness said:

Gern Blansten said:

My wife has a facebook friend who we've known for several years. Her daughter has always been a bit tomboyish but she recently "came out" as they/them (new to me still but whatever...aren't you really just coming out as bisexual or homosexual?...no idea)

Gender identity and sexual preference are two different things. 

Gender identity = regardless of your chromosomes, do you feel more like a man? a woman? neither?

Bisexual = you are attracted to both males and females, regardless of your own gender. (Some people now prefer "pansexual," which means attracted to any gender identity.)

Ok but for a 15/16 year old (I have four adult children now) I would think that it is more likely a confused young adult that is likely attracted to females. I'm no expert by any stretch though.

OnWis97

Regarding email signatures, I was on board with that immediately before I even thought of gender identity because if someone was named Chris, Blair, etc., I didn't know whether to say Mr. or Ms. when writing a formal letter or something. Given recent trends, even if someone is named Jonathan or Bonnie, I do what I can to avoid Mr/Ms. The world's changing and I think we'll get used to it. But I am noticing that this generally left-leaning group is struggling with it.

Funny story: in 2008, I'd just started a job and was in an internal meeting that left me with several tasks including contacting someone named Jack. At some point I said "blah blah blah, so I'll get in touch with Jack and after I talk to him..." and everyone laughed. Turns out Jack was just how a woman named Jacqueline shortened her name. When the email signatures started popping up, I thought of that moment at times. 

Gern Blansten

OnWis97 said:

Regarding email signatures, I was on board with that immediately before I even thought of gender identity because if someone was named Chris, Blair, etc., I didn't know whether to say Mr. or Ms. when writing a formal letter or something. Given recent trends, even if someone is named Jonathan or Bonnie, I do what I can to avoid Mr/Ms. The world's changing and I think we'll get used to it. But I am noticing that this generally left-leaning group is struggling with it.

Funny story: in 2008, I'd just started a job and was in an internal meeting that left me with several tasks including contacting someone named Jack. At some point I said "blah blah blah, so I'll get in touch with Jack and after I talk to him..." and everyone laughed. Turns out Jack was just how a woman named Jacqueline shortened her name. When the email signatures started popping up, I thought of that moment at times. 

That's a situation that people laugh off though. If you innocently confuse a man (named Chris/Pat, etc.) and refer to him as "her" it gets laughed off instead of everyone getting offended and pissed off.