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Transgendered/Trans-Identifying Athletes

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    lastexitlondonlastexitlondon Posts: 12,978
    I played football.  The real knid with the feet. For many years if I played against a female I would hurt them badly by my very size and bullishness. It's a different game . That's why there is womens football. Equal.
    Mens equal .
    There is no more to say on it.
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    nicknyr15nicknyr15 Posts: 7,983
    edited July 10
    The fact that this is even a thing is ridiculous. I just feel people are scared to speak out against it because some people just equate that with being trans phobic. Which is also ridiculous. 
    Post edited by nicknyr15 on
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    pjhawkspjhawks Posts: 12,332
    I think i'm fairly liberal (ok moderate liberal) but biological males should be nowhere near female sports.  It's just common sense.  And especially in the developing body years.  Those 12-18 years where some kids just grow faster than others.  Just no.


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    VitalogensiaVitalogensia Posts: 1,978

    I think it’s reasonable to have doubts about this story.  For starters, I do not know the OP nor am I trying to make accusations.  I am not accusing the OP or anyone else of being a liar, or a bigot, nor am I attempting to make any personal attacks.  The point is simply that the story as presented isn’t adding up, and I think there is reason to question the reliability of the post.

    First, the OP claims to have co-founded Vancouver’s Day of Remembrance, a day that GLAAD says is day “to honor all those transgender people whose lives were lost to anti-transgender violence”.  The OP claims to regret doing that, and later puts up a post that likens trans athletes to the Special Olympics.  That’s a confusing string of comments to me.

    There is also a claim that “my daughter interacted with the larger XY chromosomal goalie”.  First, this may very well be pedantic, but as someone that has lived a rather sports-centric life, I have never heard someone use the word “interacted with” to describe anything that happens in sports.  To me, it sounds like that word was intentionally used to obfuscate the situation, as if there was a direct body-to-body altercation.  The eventual description of what happened proves this in my opinion.

    But furthermore, how is it known that the goalie was XY?  Were there genetic tests performed? That would be against the BC Soccer 2023 Rules and Regulations (https://www.bcsoccer.net/media/yi4plx1e/2023-bc-soccer-rules-and-regulations.pdf) which states “For the purposes of registration on gender-based amateur clubs, a player may be assigned to the gender team with which the player identifies. All identifications of gender identity by athletes shall be considered to be made in good faith and shall not require further disclosure or documentation.”

    Assuming that the goalie does have X and Y chromosomes, the goalie could possibly have XXY, XYY, XXYY, or XXXXY combinations. Can we count any of those possibilities out, and what possible advantages or disadvantages any of these chromosome variations would affect athletic ability? https://www.childrenscolorado.org/conditions-and-advice/conditions-and-symptoms/conditions/x-y-chromosome-variations/

    Do we know if this goalie has been using any gender-affirming care? That is something which absolutely affects athletic performance: https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC10262668/

    The OP also references “My 12 year old striker” as well as “a thirteen year old female”.  Well, which is it?  And was the striker playing up a level, or the goalie down a level?  Going back to the organization’s Rules and Regulations, that is possible per the “BC Soccer Playing Down Policy”, but generally speaking, “A player’s age category is determined by the year in which the player was born and registers for”, and there are U-14, U-13, and U-12 levels. So, which level or league are we talking about here?

    I’m not claiming to know any of these answers, but I think too many people have jumped to conclusions about the facts without knowing much about the story.  This is a complex, topical, and important thing to debate, for sure, but to me there isn’t enough provided about the story to make determinations about if anyone was in the right or wrong, or what to do about the situation. 

    Finally, maybe this snippet of a speech from Professor Robert Sapolsky regarding the neuro-biology of trans-sexuality will be informative and interesting to some: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8QScpDGqwsQ

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    pjl44pjl44 Posts: 8,592
    Havin' a normal one as they say
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    Gern BlanstenGern Blansten Your Mom's Posts: 18,369
    I'm reminded of an incident on my oldest daughter's soccer team. This was probably 12 years ago.

    Our goalie clearly had identity issues meaning she looked like a boy, dressed like a boy, etc. After high school she transitioned and is now living life as a male.

    But a player's dad on an opposing team had accused her of being a boy during a soccer tournament. I can't say that she was too upset about it but her mother certainly was and I didn't blame her. I remember the mom yelling at the guy because he was suggesting/demanding that someone check her anatomy and he wasn't kidding.
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    nicknyr15nicknyr15 Posts: 7,983

    I think it’s reasonable to have doubts about this story.  For starters, I do not know the OP nor am I trying to make accusations.  I am not accusing the OP or anyone else of being a liar, or a bigot, nor am I attempting to make any personal attacks.  The point is simply that the story as presented isn’t adding up, and I think there is reason to question the reliability of the post.

    First, the OP claims to have co-founded Vancouver’s Day of Remembrance, a day that GLAAD says is day “to honor all those transgender people whose lives were lost to anti-transgender violence”.  The OP claims to regret doing that, and later puts up a post that likens trans athletes to the Special Olympics.  That’s a confusing string of comments to me.

    There is also a claim that “my daughter interacted with the larger XY chromosomal goalie”.  First, this may very well be pedantic, but as someone that has lived a rather sports-centric life, I have never heard someone use the word “interacted with” to describe anything that happens in sports.  To me, it sounds like that word was intentionally used to obfuscate the situation, as if there was a direct body-to-body altercation.  The eventual description of what happened proves this in my opinion.

    But furthermore, how is it known that the goalie was XY?  Were there genetic tests performed? That would be against the BC Soccer 2023 Rules and Regulations (https://www.bcsoccer.net/media/yi4plx1e/2023-bc-soccer-rules-and-regulations.pdf) which states “For the purposes of registration on gender-based amateur clubs, a player may be assigned to the gender team with which the player identifies. All identifications of gender identity by athletes shall be considered to be made in good faith and shall not require further disclosure or documentation.”

    Assuming that the goalie does have X and Y chromosomes, the goalie could possibly have XXY, XYY, XXYY, or XXXXY combinations. Can we count any of those possibilities out, and what possible advantages or disadvantages any of these chromosome variations would affect athletic ability? https://www.childrenscolorado.org/conditions-and-advice/conditions-and-symptoms/conditions/x-y-chromosome-variations/

    Do we know if this goalie has been using any gender-affirming care? That is something which absolutely affects athletic performance: https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC10262668/

    The OP also references “My 12 year old striker” as well as “a thirteen year old female”.  Well, which is it?  And was the striker playing up a level, or the goalie down a level?  Going back to the organization’s Rules and Regulations, that is possible per the “BC Soccer Playing Down Policy”, but generally speaking, “A player’s age category is determined by the year in which the player was born and registers for”, and there are U-14, U-13, and U-12 levels. So, which level or league are we talking about here?

    I’m not claiming to know any of these answers, but I think too many people have jumped to conclusions about the facts without knowing much about the story.  This is a complex, topical, and important thing to debate, for sure, but to me there isn’t enough provided about the story to make determinations about if anyone was in the right or wrong, or what to do about the situation. 

    Finally, maybe this snippet of a speech from Professor Robert Sapolsky regarding the neuro-biology of trans-sexuality will be informative and interesting to some: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8QScpDGqwsQ

    Jeez. 
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    OnWis97OnWis97 St. Paul, MN Posts: 4,878


    First, the OP claims to have co-founded Vancouver’s Day of Remembrance, a day that GLAAD says is day “to honor all those transgender people whose lives were lost to anti-transgender violence”.  The OP claims to regret doing that, and later puts up a post that likens trans athletes to the Special Olympics.  That’s a confusing string of comments to me.



    This is actually what I was getting at when I said that sports was a gateway...

    One could infer (and this may not be the full and only truth) from the first post that the OP went from an active trans ally to anti-trans because of this incident. Taking the story at face value, it directly impacted her and her family. Nevertheless, if it can move a trans ally to anti, imagine what sports (and sports anecdotes) can do to people that are otherwise neutral and just coming into their own on an issue that's relatively new to the spotlight.
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    brianluxbrianlux Moving through All Kinds of Terrain. Posts: 41,142
    nicknyr15 said:
    The fact that this is even a thing is ridiculous. I just feel people are scared to speak out against it because some people just equate that with being trans phobic. Which is also ridiculous. 

    pjhawks said:
    I think i'm fairly liberal (ok moderate liberal) but biological males should be nowhere near female sports.  It's just common sense.  And especially in the developing body years.  Those 12-18 years where some kids just grow faster than others.  Just no.



    Agreed both.  Very reasonable comments, both.
    “The fear of death follows from the fear of life. A man [or woman] who lives fully is prepared to die at any time.”
    Variously credited to Mark Twain or Edward Abbey.













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    SpunkieSpunkie I come from downtown. Posts: 6,043
    edited July 10

    I think it’s reasonable to have doubts about this story.  For starters, I do not know the OP nor am I trying to make accusations.  I am not accusing the OP or anyone else of being a liar, or a bigot, nor am I attempting to make any personal attacks.  The point is simply that the story as presented isn’t adding up, and I think there is reason to question the reliability of the post.

    First, the OP claims to have co-founded Vancouver’s Day of Remembrance, a day that GLAAD says is day “to honor all those transgender people whose lives were lost to anti-transgender violence”.  The OP claims to regret doing that, and later puts up a post that likens trans athletes to the Special Olympics.  That’s a confusing string of comments to me.

    There is also a claim that “my daughter interacted with the larger XY chromosomal goalie”.  First, this may very well be pedantic, but as someone that has lived a rather sports-centric life, I have never heard someone use the word “interacted with” to describe anything that happens in sports.  To me, it sounds like that word was intentionally used to obfuscate the situation, as if there was a direct body-to-body altercation.  The eventual description of what happened proves this in my opinion.

    But furthermore, how is it known that the goalie was XY?  Were there genetic tests performed? That would be against the BC Soccer 2023 Rules and Regulations (https://www.bcsoccer.net/media/yi4plx1e/2023-bc-soccer-rules-and-regulations.pdf) which states “For the purposes of registration on gender-based amateur clubs, a player may be assigned to the gender team with which the player identifies. All identifications of gender identity by athletes shall be considered to be made in good faith and shall not require further disclosure or documentation.”

    Assuming that the goalie does have X and Y chromosomes, the goalie could possibly have XXY, XYY, XXYY, or XXXXY combinations. Can we count any of those possibilities out, and what possible advantages or disadvantages any of these chromosome variations would affect athletic ability? https://www.childrenscolorado.org/conditions-and-advice/conditions-and-symptoms/conditions/x-y-chromosome-variations/

    Do we know if this goalie has been using any gender-affirming care? That is something which absolutely affects athletic performance: https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC10262668/

    The OP also references “My 12 year old striker” as well as “a thirteen year old female”.  Well, which is it?  And was the striker playing up a level, or the goalie down a level?  Going back to the organization’s Rules and Regulations, that is possible per the “BC Soccer Playing Down Policy”, but generally speaking, “A player’s age category is determined by the year in which the player was born and registers for”, and there are U-14, U-13, and U-12 levels. So, which level or league are we talking about here?

    I’m not claiming to know any of these answers, but I think too many people have jumped to conclusions about the facts without knowing much about the story.  This is a complex, topical, and important thing to debate, for sure, but to me there isn’t enough provided about the story to make determinations about if anyone was in the right or wrong, or what to do about the situation. 

    Finally, maybe this snippet of a speech from Professor Robert Sapolsky regarding the neuro-biology of trans-sexuality will be informative and interesting to some: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8QScpDGqwsQ

    12 year old kiddo playing up against goalie Under 14 by year end, hence 13.

     Edit: I mean 14 by year end, I suck at this Uage logic stuff. Plus I'm tired. Lost a good night sleep thinking of this. Whatever I don't know how old that other f****** kid is but mine's 12 maybe that was a 14-year-old genetic male. This isn't really the point though. Scratch my mathematical/logic error. 

     Yeah I hate when things don't make logical sense. I mean I've carried an EGALE  flag for a pride parade but I'm f****** pissed right off about this s***. That's a good point that I don't have to be transphobic to be pissed off about this. Ty.

    Having my coach speak to his head soccer guy (great coach) about the matter.

    I know Mickeyrat doesn't mean any harm. He's just factoring his own logic/experience into the equation and that's all right.

     and thanks for validating my general knowledge about physics. Damn I hated that c*********** physic teacher. I lost 20% of my grade and didn't get an A because of my attitude and attendance
    Post edited by Spunkie on
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    Go BeaversGo Beavers Posts: 8,762
    pjl44 said:
    One of the ways this can spiral out of control is cherry picking reactions and then arguing with those reactions vs. discussing the issue on its merits with the people in front of you having the discussion.
    You must be new to the internet. 
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    pjl44pjl44 Posts: 8,592
    pjl44 said:
    One of the ways this can spiral out of control is cherry picking reactions and then arguing with those reactions vs. discussing the issue on its merits with the people in front of you having the discussion.
    You must be new to the internet. 
    Just because it happens a lot don't make it any less fruitless
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    Spiritual_ChaosSpiritual_Chaos Posts: 29,785
    edited July 11
    Spunkie said:

    Having my coach speak to his head soccer guy (great coach) about the matter.
    Even with this subject of whether a person should be allowed in a certain sports team based on their physique, shouldn't you still be able to correctly call that person by their gender -- as in "her"?  Or did your belief in the phenomenon of transsexuality completely vaporize because of this, in this context removed, incident?
    Post edited by Spiritual_Chaos on
    "Mostly I think that people react sensitively because they know you’ve got a point"
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    Spiritual_ChaosSpiritual_Chaos Posts: 29,785
    But a player's dad on an opposing team had accused her of being a boy during a soccer tournament. I can't say that she was too upset about it but her mother certainly was and I didn't blame her. I remember the mom yelling at the guy because he was suggesting/demanding that someone check her anatomy and he wasn't kidding.
    This reminds me of a very, very sad scene from this book. 





    Which I think some in here should read.
    "Mostly I think that people react sensitively because they know you’ve got a point"
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    SpunkieSpunkie I come from downtown. Posts: 6,043
    Spunkie said:

    Having my coach speak to his head soccer guy (great coach) about the matter.
    Even with this subject of whether a person should be allowed in a certain sports team based on their physique, shouldn't you still be able to correctly call that person by their gender -- as in "her"?  Or did your belief in the phenomenon of transsexuality completely vaporize because of this, in this context removed, incident?
    Don't know their pronoun. They/them?
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    SpunkieSpunkie I come from downtown. Posts: 6,043
    If I call that person by their gender I'd call him a him but then why is he on a girl's team
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    SpunkieSpunkie I come from downtown. Posts: 6,043
    I mean can a 14-year-old genetic male even legally be a female in BC? I don't know man.
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    DarthMaeglinDarthMaeglin Toronto Posts: 2,527
    Spunkie said:
    Spunkie said:

    Having my coach speak to his head soccer guy (great coach) about the matter.
    Even with this subject of whether a person should be allowed in a certain sports team based on their physique, shouldn't you still be able to correctly call that person by their gender -- as in "her"?  Or did your belief in the phenomenon of transsexuality completely vaporize because of this, in this context removed, incident?
    Don't know their pronoun. They/them?
    When in doubt, they/them, I would think, although in this case she/her would be a safe assumption based on the league in which they play. Otherwise it’s basically deadnaming, isn’t it?

    That said I’m truly sorry your daughter got hurt and wish her a full recovery.
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    SpunkieSpunkie I come from downtown. Posts: 6,043
    Yeah all I know for sure is they must not be identifying us a male.
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    SpunkieSpunkie I come from downtown. Posts: 6,043
    I wouldn't want to see her because of the general neutral category whatever that's called again 


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    SpunkieSpunkie I come from downtown. Posts: 6,043
    edited July 11
    After UBC trained me as a scholar-practitioner not to use male and female terms, when I first started yelling "go girls" I would stop myself and think I made an error.

    When I was doing a lesson on the four food chiefs which is the local Sylix Indigenous people beliefs on the unceded territory on which I was practicing, the principal didn't want me to teach the male and female genders that correspond to the chiefs (along with young and old).


    Post edited by Spunkie on
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    brianluxbrianlux Moving through All Kinds of Terrain. Posts: 41,142
    Spunkie said:
    I wouldn't want to see her because of the general neutral category whatever that's called again 



    No one has explained that to me to my satisfaction.  A human being is either a male, a female, a hermaphrodite, or has been surgically and chemically altered to become the opposite sex they were born as (a practice that to me sounds like mutilation, but if someone wants to do that, that's their business and their right).  Is there really such a thing as a gender neutral human?  I doubt it.
    “The fear of death follows from the fear of life. A man [or woman] who lives fully is prepared to die at any time.”
    Variously credited to Mark Twain or Edward Abbey.













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    SpunkieSpunkie I come from downtown. Posts: 6,043
    Well we might as well add the complexity of  First Nation, Inuit, Metis belief systems into the mix if we're going to talk about gender identity in BC soccer that occurs on unceded territory.
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    brianluxbrianlux Moving through All Kinds of Terrain. Posts: 41,142
    Spunkie said:
    Well we might as well add the complexity of  First Nation, Inuit, Metis belief systems into the mix if we're going to talk about gender identity in BC soccer that occurs on unceded territory.

    What are their beliefs related to gender?
    “The fear of death follows from the fear of life. A man [or woman] who lives fully is prepared to die at any time.”
    Variously credited to Mark Twain or Edward Abbey.













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    SpunkieSpunkie I come from downtown. Posts: 6,043
    Make, female, old, young for the four directions on medicine wheel for Sylix. Siya)(Saskatoon berry) young, fish/male, bear/old, Bitterroot/female.

    Two-spirit revered.

    I have a hard to keep up with the  preferred term for the gender reassignment surgery. I think there's a new way to say it. I only knew transvestite 20 years ago before I learned transgendered bri.
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    Gern BlanstenGern Blansten Your Mom's Posts: 18,369
    brianlux said:
    Spunkie said:
    I wouldn't want to see her because of the general neutral category whatever that's called again 



    No one has explained that to me to my satisfaction.  A human being is either a male, a female, a hermaphrodite, or has been surgically and chemically altered to become the opposite sex they were born as (a practice that to me sounds like mutilation, but if someone wants to do that, that's their business and their right).  Is there really such a thing as a gender neutral human?  I doubt it.
    Yeah I don't get it either. I don't want to intentionally ever insult someone or make them feel like a lesser being but I don't get the they/them stuff.

    Sounds schizophrenic to me. Like there is a male and female being existing in the same body which isn't the case.

    He or her...that's it. If you are a he that is now a her that's fine. But you are one or the other. 
    Remember the Thomas Nine !! (10/02/2018)

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    2010: St Louis, Columbus, Noblesville; 2011: EV Chicago, East Troy, East Troy
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    DarthMaeglinDarthMaeglin Toronto Posts: 2,527
    brianlux said:
    Spunkie said:
    I wouldn't want to see her because of the general neutral category whatever that's called again 



    No one has explained that to me to my satisfaction.  A human being is either a male, a female, a hermaphrodite, or has been surgically and chemically altered to become the opposite sex they were born as (a practice that to me sounds like mutilation, but if someone wants to do that, that's their business and their right).  Is there really such a thing as a gender neutral human?  I doubt it.
    Yeah I don't get it either. I don't want to intentionally ever insult someone or make them feel like a lesser being but I don't get the they/them stuff.

    Sounds schizophrenic to me. Like there is a male and female being existing in the same body which isn't the case.

    He or her...that's it. If you are a he that is now a her that's fine. But you are one or the other. 
    Part of why I’ve incorporated they/them is as a potential compromise for those who have difficulty referring to trans people with their identified gender pronouns. I strongly feel that people should be allowed to be uncomfortable with this whole concept and not be labeled transphobic or something. We need patience and openness on both sides.

     I can’t truly conceive it but it has to be an awkward and strange place to exist when one genuinely feels out of sync with their own body in this way and can’t feel anything but sympathy for them.

    However I do think that when it comes to sport, regardless of where someone is in the transitioning process they should compete in their birth gender until a third (actually there should be 2 new divisions for each transition, male-to-female and female-to-male) division is established. And on some levels I still feel badly making that statement but the facts of biology are already well established here.
    "The world is full of idiots and I am but one of them."

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    pjl44pjl44 Posts: 8,592
    The pronoun thing is tricky. You see the exercise get co-opted by narcissists which leaves many people cynical. I worked with someone in HR who requested you use "she/they/elle." You get hit with some boutique blends and the threat of a scolding if you don't get it right. It's a shame that the upshot is the cynicism winds up extending to trans women who would just like to be she and trans men who would just like to be he.
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    brianluxbrianlux Moving through All Kinds of Terrain. Posts: 41,142
    Spunkie said:
    Make, female, old, young for the four directions on medicine wheel for Sylix. Siya)(Saskatoon berry) young, fish/male, bear/old, Bitterroot/female.

    Two-spirit revered.

    I have a hard to keep up with the  preferred term for the gender reassignment surgery. I think there's a new way to say it. I only knew transvestite 20 years ago before I learned transgendered bri.
    Interesting.  It's amazing how indigenous people are often seen as over-simplified.  Their beliefs can be very complex.  I also like something I read recently by a native writer (I wish I could remember who it is) who said, "I don't like our stories being called 'myths'.  Our stories explain our beliefs and should be given more respect."  Something like that.  It was great.
    brianlux said:
    Spunkie said:
    I wouldn't want to see her because of the general neutral category whatever that's called again 



    No one has explained that to me to my satisfaction.  A human being is either a male, a female, a hermaphrodite, or has been surgically and chemically altered to become the opposite sex they were born as (a practice that to me sounds like mutilation, but if someone wants to do that, that's their business and their right).  Is there really such a thing as a gender neutral human?  I doubt it.
    Yeah I don't get it either. I don't want to intentionally ever insult someone or make them feel like a lesser being but I don't get the they/them stuff.

    Sounds schizophrenic to me. Like there is a male and female being existing in the same body which isn't the case.

    He or her...that's it. If you are a he that is now a her that's fine. But you are one or the other. 

    Right!  Same here.  I don't want to offend anyone.  
    But what concerns me is that I think a lot of (especially) younger people are making rash decisions about sexuality based on emotion, without a balance of clear thinking.  
    I don't think there is anything at all wrong with questioning.  Paul Westerberg said in a song called "Sixteen Blue" this:  "You're wondering to yourself that you might be gay."  Nothing wrong with that.  I asked myself that very question- probably because I've had gay friends I really care for.  But, sorry guys, I don't want to sleep with you.  I'm not attracted to you that way. 
    “The fear of death follows from the fear of life. A man [or woman] who lives fully is prepared to die at any time.”
    Variously credited to Mark Twain or Edward Abbey.













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    Gern BlanstenGern Blansten Your Mom's Posts: 18,369
    pjl44 said:
    The pronoun thing is tricky. You see the exercise get co-opted by narcissists which leaves many people cynical. I worked with someone in HR who requested you use "she/they/elle." You get hit with some boutique blends and the threat of a scolding if you don't get it right. It's a shame that the upshot is the cynicism winds up extending to trans women who would just like to be she and trans men who would just like to be he.
    I'm surprised at the number of emails I receive where pronouns are listed in peoples signature lines. We really need this now?
    Remember the Thomas Nine !! (10/02/2018)

    1998: Noblesville; 2003: Noblesville; 2009: EV Nashville, Chicago, Chicago
    2010: St Louis, Columbus, Noblesville; 2011: EV Chicago, East Troy, East Troy
    2013: London ON, Chicago; 2014: Cincy, St Louis, Moline (NO CODE)
    2016: Lexington, Wrigley #1; 2018: Wrigley, Wrigley, Boston, Boston
    2020: Oakland, Oakland:  2021: EV Ohana, Ohana, Ohana, Ohana
    2022: Oakland, Oakland, Nashville, Louisville; 2023: Chicago, Chicago, Noblesville
    2024: Noblesville, Wrigley, Wrigley, Ohana, Ohana
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