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  • HughFreakingDillon
    HughFreakingDillon Winnipeg Posts: 39,758
    pjl44 said:
    If your own hypothetical is using human shields as a given, it's giving up the game
    So the actions of the terrorist excuse the murder of innocents. Seems to me the “terrorist” label could be applied to several players here. 

    Which is my entire point. 

    As I stated before, 9/11 doesn’t happen without years of US government sanctioned murder on foreign soil. Oct 7 doesn’t happen without decades of Israeli government policy. Am I excusing those events? Of course not. You can analyze cause and effect without it being an excuse. 

    Israel’s actions now are just going to have dire consequences in the future. Likely more innocent people. Because those are the real casualties of war. The collateral damage that both sides are so quick to dismiss as “necessary”. It won’t end until someone stops it. And I personally don’t believe Israel has any interest in stopping it. It gave them the green light. 
    By The Time They Figure Out What Went Wrong, We'll Be Sitting On A Beach, Earning Twenty Percent.




  • pjl44
    pjl44 Posts: 10,581
    HughFreakingDillon said:
    pjl44 said:
    If your own hypothetical is using human shields as a given, it's giving up the game
    So the actions of the terrorist excuse the murder of innocents. Seems to me the “terrorist” label could be applied to several players here. 

    Which is my entire point. 

    As I stated before, 9/11 doesn’t happen without years of US government sanctioned murder on foreign soil. Oct 7 doesn’t happen without decades of Israeli government policy. Am I excusing those events? Of course not. You can analyze cause and effect without it being an excuse. 

    Israel’s actions now are just going to have dire consequences in the future. Likely more innocent people. Because those are the real casualties of war. The collateral damage that both sides are so quick to dismiss as “necessary”. It won’t end until someone stops it. And I personally don’t believe Israel has any interest in stopping it. It gave them the green light. 
    I often suspect that this completely western-centric view of the situation that also ignores the explicitly stated goals of Hamas (amongst others) drives a decent amount of anti-Israel furor. That being the most generous interpretation anyway.
  • pjl44
    pjl44 Posts: 10,581
    When you proclaim to understand how "decades of policy" lead to a 10/7 massacre but tut-tut what a 10/7 massacre leads to....again, giving up the game
  • Halifax2TheMax
    Halifax2TheMax Posts: 42,644
    pjl44 said:
    HughFreakingDillon said:
    pjl44 said:
    If your own hypothetical is using human shields as a given, it's giving up the game
    So the actions of the terrorist excuse the murder of innocents. Seems to me the “terrorist” label could be applied to several players here. 

    Which is my entire point. 

    As I stated before, 9/11 doesn’t happen without years of US government sanctioned murder on foreign soil. Oct 7 doesn’t happen without decades of Israeli government policy. Am I excusing those events? Of course not. You can analyze cause and effect without it being an excuse. 

    Israel’s actions now are just going to have dire consequences in the future. Likely more innocent people. Because those are the real casualties of war. The collateral damage that both sides are so quick to dismiss as “necessary”. It won’t end until someone stops it. And I personally don’t believe Israel has any interest in stopping it. It gave them the green light. 
    I often suspect that this completely western-centric view of the situation that also ignores the explicitly stated goals of Hamas (amongst others) drives a decent amount of anti-Israel furor. That being the most generous interpretation anyway.
    Maybe it’s the Likud Party’s original party platform? From 1977. That “wasteland” contains millions of Palestinians and it wouldn’t appear that Israel took care “not to dispossess anyone.” Seems pretty “west-centric” to think all the fault lies with Hamas.

    The Right of the Jewish People to the Land of Israel(Eretz Israel)

    a. The right of the Jewish peopleto the land of Israel is eternal and indisputable and is linked with the right to security and peace; therefore, Judea and Samaria will not be handed to any foreign administration; between the Sea and the Jordan there will only be Israeli sovereignty.

    b. A plan which relinquishes parts of western Eretz Israel, undermines our right to the country, unavoidably leads to the establishment of a "Palestinian State," jeopardizes the security of the Jewish population, endangers the existence of the State of Israel. and frustrates any prospect of peace.

    Settlement

    Settlement. both urban and rural. in all parts of the Land of Israel is the focal point of the Zionist effort to redeem the country, to maintain vital security areas and serves as a reservoir of strength and inspiration for the renewal of the pioneering spirit. The Likud government will call on the younger generation in Israel and the dispersions to settle and help every group and individual in the task of inhabiting and cultivating the wasteland, while taking care not to dispossess anyone.

    https://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/original-party-platform-of-the-likud-party

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  • Halifax2TheMax
    Halifax2TheMax Posts: 42,644
    edited May 2024
    .
    Post edited by Halifax2TheMax on
    09/15/1998 & 09/16/1998, Mansfield, MA; 08/29/00 08/30/00, Mansfield, MA; 07/02/03, 07/03/03, Mansfield, MA; 09/28/04, 09/29/04, Boston, MA; 09/22/05, Halifax, NS; 05/24/06, 05/25/06, Boston, MA; 07/22/06, 07/23/06, Gorge, WA; 06/27/2008, Hartford; 06/28/08, 06/30/08, Mansfield; 08/18/2009, O2, London, UK; 10/30/09, 10/31/09, Philadelphia, PA; 05/15/10, Hartford, CT; 05/17/10, Boston, MA; 05/20/10, 05/21/10, NY, NY; 06/22/10, Dublin, IRE; 06/23/10, Northern Ireland; 09/03/11, 09/04/11, Alpine Valley, WI; 09/11/11, 09/12/11, Toronto, Ont; 09/14/11, Ottawa, Ont; 09/15/11, Hamilton, Ont; 07/02/2012, Prague, Czech Republic; 07/04/2012 & 07/05/2012, Berlin, Germany; 07/07/2012, Stockholm, Sweden; 09/30/2012, Missoula, MT; 07/16/2013, London, Ont; 07/19/2013, Chicago, IL; 10/15/2013 & 10/16/2013, Worcester, MA; 10/21/2013 & 10/22/2013, Philadelphia, PA; 10/25/2013, Hartford, CT; 11/29/2013, Portland, OR; 11/30/2013, Spokane, WA; 12/04/2013, Vancouver, BC; 12/06/2013, Seattle, WA; 10/03/2014, St. Louis. MO; 10/22/2014, Denver, CO; 10/26/2015, New York, NY; 04/23/2016, New Orleans, LA; 04/28/2016 & 04/29/2016, Philadelphia, PA; 05/01/2016 & 05/02/2016, New York, NY; 05/08/2016, Ottawa, Ont.; 05/10/2016 & 05/12/2016, Toronto, Ont.; 08/05/2016 & 08/07/2016, Boston, MA; 08/20/2016 & 08/22/2016, Chicago, IL; 07/01/2018, Prague, Czech Republic; 07/03/2018, Krakow, Poland; 07/05/2018, Berlin, Germany; 09/02/2018 & 09/04/2018, Boston, MA; 09/08/2022, Toronto, Ont; 09/11/2022, New York, NY; 09/14/2022, Camden, NJ; 09/02/2023, St. Paul, MN; 05/04/2024 & 05/06/2024, Vancouver, BC; 05/10/2024, Portland, OR;

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  • Lerxst1992
    Lerxst1992 Posts: 8,088
    HughFreakingDillon said:
    Lerxst1992 said:
    pjl44 said:
    mickeyrat said:
    flaw in the premise about harboring. as if the general population has any power over those with the guns. 

    second unmentioned thing is since a plurality voted them in, there has been no other election to vote them out.
    For the record, I don't like the "voted them in" argument because it's typically used as a way to imply or outright accuse the Palestinian people of being complicit. Don't like it for the exact reason you stated and several others.

    My point was if this involved the United States any country initiating the original battle would have been leveled and destroyed by now. Not in any way comparable to what israel is now doing

    If the palestinian people wanted to turn on hamas, we would have seen some evidence of that

     if any country tried anything close to this, to what hamas did to Israel on October 7th, the United States of America military would completely level and decimate any country that tried to do this to them.

    But in this case the Palestinians have come up with the nonsensical genocide argument (to get the woke support) which people have to realize that's an insulting thing to say to an Israeli

     If you want to discuss genocide let's read Geddy Lee's book together and we can discuss genocide. That was genocide.
    Why is your benchmark “well it’s not as bad as what the US would do”?. That’s a pretty terrible benchmark, and not the standard we should be employing. As the “wars” in the mid east since 9/11 have shown us. 


    My point was when you take military action against a force far superior to yours, and murder their women and children,, you should plan for and expect a horrible war that you will lose.
  • HughFreakingDillon
    HughFreakingDillon Winnipeg Posts: 39,758
    pjl44 said:
    When you proclaim to understand how "decades of policy" lead to a 10/7 massacre but tut-tut what a 10/7 massacre leads to....again, giving up the game
    I’m not tut-tutting anything. It was horrific. Hamas is evil. They need to be defeated. But not giving a fuck about thousands of innocent people isn’t just a slight problem. 

    Again, I fully believe that Netanyahu was thrilled with 10/7, just as many of the American war hawks were about 9/11. A means to an end. A green light for unmitigated slaughter. 
    By The Time They Figure Out What Went Wrong, We'll Be Sitting On A Beach, Earning Twenty Percent.




  • mickeyrat
    mickeyrat Posts: 44,762
    https://apnews.com/article/biden-israel-hamas-58169a607d4a7c4d7fc34f43160076b8   Biden details a 3-phase hostage deal aimed at winding down the Israel-Hamas war


     
    Biden details a 3-phase hostage deal aimed at winding down the Israel-Hamas war
    By AAMER MADHANI, CHRIS MEGERIAN and DARLENE SUPERVILLE
    14 mins ago

    WASHINGTON (AP) — President Joe Biden on Friday detailed a three-phase deal proposed by Israel to Hamas militants that he says would lead to the release of the remaining hostages in Gaza and could end the grinding, nearly 8-month-old Mideast war.

    Biden added that Hamas is “no longer capable” of carrying out another large-scale attack on Israel as he urged Israelis and Hamas to come to a deal to release the remaining hostages for an extended cease-fire.

    The Democratic president in remarks from the White House called the proposal “a road map to an enduring cease-fire and the release of all hostages.”

    Biden said the first phase of the proposed deal would would last for six weeks and would include a “full and complete cease-fire,” a withdrawal of Israeli forces from all populated areas of Gaza and the release of a number of hostages, including women, the elderly and the wounded, in exchange for the release of hundreds of Palestinian prisoners.

    American hostages would be released at this stage, and remains of hostages who have been killed would be returned to their families. Humanitarian assistance would surge during the first phase, with 600 trucks being allowed into Gaza each day.

    The second phase would include the release of all remaining living hostages, including male soldiers, and Israeli forces would withdraw from Gaza.

    “And as long as Hamas lives up to its commitments, the temporary cease-fire would become, in the words of the Israeli proposal, ‘the cessation of hostilities permanently,’” Biden said.

    The third phase calls for the start of a major reconstruction of Gaza, which faces decades of rebuilding from devastation caused by the war. The 4-1/2 page Israeli proposal was transmitted to Hamas on Thursday.

    But Biden acknowledged that keeping the deal on track would be difficult, saying there are a number of "details to negotiate” to move from the first phase to the second.

    One roadblock to overcome during the first phase would involve the two sides agreeing on the ratio of hostages to prisoners to be released during the next phase, according to a senior Biden administration official who briefed reporters on the condition of anonymity.

    Biden's remarks came as the Israeli military confirmed that its forces are now operating in central parts of Rafah in its expanding offensive in the southern Gaza city. Biden called it “a truly a decisive moment." He added that Hamas said it wants a cease-fire and that an Israeli-phased deal is an opportunity to prove “whether they really mean it.”

    But even as Biden pressed for the "war to end and for the day after to begin,” Israeli officials have made clear they remain committed to a military defeat of Hamas. The Democrat is in the midst of a tough reelection battle and has faced backlash from some on the political left who want to see him put greater pressure on Israeli Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu's government to end the war.

    Netanyahu's office in a statement said that he authorized the Israel's hostage negotiating team to find a way to release the remaining hostages. But the Israelis maintain “the war will not end until all of its goals are achieved, including the return of all our abductees and the elimination of Hamas’ military and governmental capabilities.”

    Israel’s national security adviser, Tzachi Hanegbi, said earlier this week he was “expecting another seven months of fighting” to destroy the military and governing capabilities of Hamas and the smaller Islamic Jihad militant group.

    Hamas political bureau member Bassim Naim described the proposal outlined by Biden as “positive progress,” but did not elaborate.

    Israel has faced growing international criticism for its strategy of systematic destruction in Gaza, at a huge cost in civilian lives. Israeli bombardments and ground offensives in the besieged territory have killed more than 36,000 Palestinians, according to Gaza’s Health Ministry, which does not distinguish between combatants and civilians.

    Biden also addressed some in Israel who resist ending the war. Some members of Netanyahu's far-right coalition have opposed any deal that falls short of eradicating Hamas and they have called for an enduring occupation of Gaza.

    “I ask you to take a step back and think about what will happen if this moment is lost," Biden said. "You can’t lose this moment. Indefinite war in pursuit of an unidentified notion of total victory will only bog down Israel in Gaza, draining the economic, military and human resources, and furthering Israel’s isolation in the world.”

    Biden in his remarks made no mention of establishing Palestinian statehood, something that he has repeatedly said is key to achieving long-term peace in the region. The U.S. administration has also been working to forge normalization between Israel and Saudi Arabia, the region's two biggest powers. But the Saudis are opposed to any agreement that does not include concrete steps toward creation of a Palestinian state.

    Israel launched its war in Gaza after Hamas’ Oct. 7 attack in which militants stormed into southern Israel, killed some 1,200 people — mostly civilians — and abducted about 250. Israel says around 100 hostages are still captive in Gaza, along with the bodies of around 30 more.

    Ceasefire talks ground to a halt at the beginning of the month after a major push by the U.S. and other mediators to secure a deal, in hopes of averting a planned Israeli invasion of the southern city of Rafah.

    The talks were stymied by a central sticking point: Hamas demands guarantees that the war will end and Israeli troops will withdraw from Gaza completely in return for a release of all the hostages, a demand Israel rejects.

    The outline of the new Israeli proposal is "nearly identical to Hamas’s own proposals of only a few weeks ago," according to the Biden administration official.

    ___

    Associated Press writer Abby Sewell in Beirut contributed to this report.


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  • mickeyrat
    mickeyrat Posts: 44,762
    https://apnews.com/article/israel-palestinians-rafah-2f603675195f80c73c593020398ed72a   Israel confirms its forces are in central Rafah in expanding offensive in the southern Gaza city


     
    Israel confirms its forces are in central Rafah in expanding offensive in the southern Gaza city
    JULIA FRANKEL
    Today

    JERUSALEM (AP) — The Israeli military confirmed Friday that its forces are operating in central parts of Rafah in its expanding offensive in the southern Gaza city.

    Israel launched its ground assault into the city on May 6, triggering an exodus of around 1 million Palestinians out of the city and throwing U.N. humanitarian operations based in the area into turmoil. Still, it has yet to amount to a “major operation” in the eyes of U.S. President Joe Biden's administration, according to the State Department.

    Biden said Friday that Hamas is “no longer capable” of carrying out another large-scale attack on Israel and urged the Israelis and Hamas to come to a deal to release remaining hostages for an extended cease-fire. He said Israeli officials have offered a three-phase deal to Hamas, adding, “Israel has made their proposal. Hamas says it wants a cease-fire. This deal is an opportunity to prove whether they really mean it.”

    Cease-fire talks ground to a halt at the beginning of the month after a major push by the U.S. and other mediators to secure a deal, in hopes of averting a full Israeli invasion of Rafah.

    Friday's statement by the Israeli military suggested its forces have been operating in most parts of the city. For its first weeks, the Israeli assault focused on Rafah's eastern districts and in areas close to the border with Egypt. Israeli troops seized the Rafah crossing into Egypt on the first day of the offensive and have since claimed control over the Philadelphi Corridor, a road running the length of the Gaza-Egypt border on the Gazan side.

    Earlier this week, Israeli troops also moved into Rafah's western district of Tel al-Sultan, where heavy clashes with Hamas fighters have been reported by witnesses.

    In its statement Friday, the military said its troops in central Rafah had uncovered Hamas rocket launchers and tunnels and dismantled a weapons storage facility of the group. It did not specify where in central Rafah the operations were taking place, but previous statements and witness reports have pointed to raids in the Shaboura refugee camp and other sites near the city center.

    The White House declined to comment Friday on the Israeli operations in central Rafah.

    Israel has said an offensive in Rafah is vital to uprooting Hamas fighters in its military's campaign to destroy the group after its Oct. 7 attack on southern Israel. The military has said it found dozens of tunnels in eastern Rafah, including at least 20 along the Philadelphi Corridor.

    Up to around 300,000 people are believed to remain in the Rafah area, with an unknown number still in the city itself. Most have flocked to rural areas on the Mediterranean coastline west of the city, said Shaina Low, a spokesperson for the Norwegian Refugee Council, a humanitarian group that operates in the area. That area has seen deadly Israeli strikes the past week.

    Palestinians who fled the city have scattered around southern and central Gaza, most of them living in squalid tent camps.

    More than 36,170 Palestinians have been killed in Gaza by Israel's campaign of bombardment and offensives over the past eight months, according to Gaza's Health Ministry. Its count does not differentiate between civilians and combatants. Israel has vowed to eliminate Hamas to ensure it cannot repeat its Oct. 7 attack, in which militants stormed into southern Israel, killing around 1,200 people and abducting around 250 others. Around 100 hostages are believed to remain in captivity in Gaza along with the bodies of some 30 others.

    ——

    Associated Press correspondent Aamer Madhani in Washington contributed to this report.


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  • mickeyrat
    mickeyrat Posts: 44,762
    edited June 2024

    https://apnews.com/article/israel-gaza-war-hamas-palestinians-sde-teiman-3ca025f6ca412ce07c0c41cf11c52c6f   Israel maintains a shadowy hospital in the desert for Gaza detainees. Critics allege mistreatment


     
    Israel maintains a shadowy hospital in the desert for Gaza detainees. Critics allege mistreatment
    By JULIA FRANKEL
    Today

    JERUSALEM (AP) — Patients lying shackled and blindfolded on more than a dozen beds inside a white tent in the desert. Surgeries performed without adequate painkillers. Doctors who remain anonymous.

    These are some of the conditions at Israel's only hospital dedicated to treating Palestinians detained by the military in the Gaza Strip, three people who have worked there told The Associated Press, confirming similar accounts from human rights groups.

    While Israel says it detains only suspected militants, many patients have turned out to be non-combatants taken during raids, held without trial and eventually returned to war-torn Gaza.

    Eight months into the Israel-Hamas war, accusations of inhumane treatment at the Sde Teiman military field hospital are on the rise, and the Israeli government is under growing pressure to shut it down. Rights groups and other critics say what began as a temporary place to hold and treat militants after Oct. 7 has morphed into a harsh detention center with too little accountability.

    The military denies the allegations of inhumane treatment and says all detainees needing medical attention receive it.

    The hospital is near the city of Beersheba in southern Israel. It opened beside a detention center on a military base after the Oct. 7 Hamas attack on Israel because some civilian hospitals refused to treat wounded militants. Of the three workers interviewed by AP, two spoke on condition of anonymity because they feared government retribution and public rebuke.

    “We are condemned by the left because we are not fulfilling ethical issues,” said Dr. Yoel Donchin, an anesthesiologist who has worked at Sde Teiman hospital since its earliest days and still works there. “We are condemned from the right because they think we are criminals for treating terrorists.”

    The military this week said it formed a committee to investigate detention center conditions, but it was unclear if that included the hospital. Next week Israel's highest court is set to hear arguments from human rights groups seeking to shut it down.

    Israel has not granted journalists or the International Committee of the Red Cross access to the Sde Teiman facilities.

    Israel has detained some 4,000 Palestinians since Oct. 7, according to official figures, though roughly 1,500 were released after the military determined they were not affiliated with Hamas. Israeli human rights groups say the majority of detainees have at some point passed through Sde Teiman, the country's largest detention center.

    Doctors there say they have treated many who appeared to be non-combatants.

    “Now we have patients that are not so young, sick patients with diabetes and high blood pressure,” said Donchin, the anesthesiologist.

    A soldier who worked at the hospital recounted an elderly man who underwent surgery on his leg without pain medication. “He was screaming and shaking,” said the soldier.

    Between medical treatments, the soldier said patients were housed in the detention center, where they were exposed to squalid conditions and their wounds often developed infections. There was a separate area where older people slept on thin mattresses under floodlights, and a putrid smell hung in the air, he said.

    The military said in a statement that all detainees are “reasonably suspected of being involved in terrorist activity.” It said they receive check-ups upon arrival and are transferred to the hospital when they require more serious treatment.

    A medical worker who saw patients at the facility in the winter recounted teaching hospital workers how to wash wounds.

    Donchin, who largely defended the facility against allegations of mistreatment but was critical of some of its practices, said most patients are diapered and not allowed to use the bathroom, shackled around their arms and legs and blindfolded.

    “Their eyes are covered all the time. I don't know what the security reason for this is,” he said.

    The military disputed the accounts provided to AP, saying patients were handcuffed “in cases where the security risk requires it” and removed when they caused injury. Patients are rarely diapered, it said.

    Dr. Michael Barilan, a professor at the Tel Aviv University Medical School who said he has spoken with over 15 hospital staff, disputed accounts of medical negligence. He said doctors are doing their best under difficult circumstances, and that the blindfolds originated out of a “fear (patients) would retaliate against those taking care of them."

    Days after Oct. 7, roughly 100 Israelis clashed with police outside one of the country's main hospitals in response to false rumors it was treating a militant.

    In the aftermath, some hospitals refused to treat detainees, fearful that doing so could endanger staff and disrupt operations. They were already overwhelmed by people wounded during the Hamas attack and expecting casualties to rise from an impending ground invasion.

    As Israel pulled in scores of wounded Palestinians to Sde Teiman, it became clear the facility's infirmary was not large enough, according to Barilan. An adjacent field hospital was built from scratch.

    Israel's Health Ministry laid out plans for the hospital in a December memo obtained by AP.

    It said patients would be treated while handcuffed and blindfolded. Doctors, drafted into service by the military, would be kept anonymous to protect their "safety, lives and well-being." The ministry referred all questions to the military when reached for comment.

    Still, an April report from Physicians for Human Rights-Israel, drawing on interviews with hospital workers, said doctors at the facility faced “ethical, professional and even emotional distress.” Barilan said turnover has been high.

    Patients with more complicated injuries have been transferred from the field hospital to civilian hospitals, but it has been done covertly to avoid arousing the public's attention, Barilan said. And the process is fraught: The medical worker who spoke with AP said one detainee with a gunshot wound was discharged prematurely from a civilian hospital to Sde Teiman within hours of being treated, endangering his life.

    The field hospital is overseen by military and health officials, but Donchin said parts of its operations are managed by KLP, a private logistics and security company whose website says it specializes in “high-risk environments.” The company did not respond to a request for comment.

    Because it’s not under the same command as the military’s medical corps, the field hospital is not subject to Israel’s Patients Rights Act, according to Physicians for Human Rights-Israel.

    A group from the Israeli Medical Association visited the hospital earlier this year but kept its findings private. The association did not respond to requests for comment.

    The military told AP that 36 people from Gaza have died in Israel’s detention centers since Oct. 7, some of them because of illnesses or wounds sustained in the war. Physicians for Human Rights-Israel has alleged that some died from medical negligence.

    Khaled Hammouda, a surgeon from Gaza, spent 22 days at one of Israel's detention centers. He does not know where he was taken because he was blindfolded while he was transported. But he said he recognized a picture of Sde Teiman and said he saw at least one detainee, a prominent Gaza doctor who is believed to have been there.

    Hammouda recalled asking a soldier if a pale 18-year-old who appeared to be suffering from internal bleeding could be taken to a doctor. The soldier took the teenager away, gave him intravenous fluids for a few hours, and then returned him.

    “I told them, ‘He could die,'" Hammouda said. “‘They told me this is the limit.'”

    ___

    AP writer Sarah El Deeb in Beirut contributed to this report.


    Post edited by mickeyrat on
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  • mickeyrat
    mickeyrat Posts: 44,762
    total victory or nothing. in other words fuck the hostages


    https://apnews.com/article/israel-hamas-war-news-01-06-2024-8c06dda3a8e20491b5a34377c60bb827   Hostage families call for a cease-fire deal pushed by Biden. Israel says conditions must be met

    Hostage families call for a cease-fire deal pushed by Biden. Israel says conditions must be met
    By SAM MEDNICK
    2 hours ago

    TEL AVIV, Israel (AP) — Families of Israeli hostages held by Hamas called for all parties to immediately accept a proposal detailed by U.S. President Joe Biden to end the nearly 8-month-long war and bring their relatives home, but Israel's government said conditions for a cease-fire still must be met.

    Biden outlined a three-phase deal Friday proposed by Israel to Hamas, saying the militant group is “no longer capable” of carrying out another large-scale attack on Israel. He urged the Israelis and Hamas to come to an agreement to release some 100 remaining hostages, along with the bodies of around 30 more, for an extended cease-fire in Gaza.

    Cease-fire talks ground to a halt last month after a major push by the U.S. and other mediators to secure a deal in hopes of averting a full Israeli invasion of Gaza's southern city of Rafah. Israel says the Rafah operation is vital to uprooting Hamas fighters responsible for the Oct. 7 attack on southern Israel that triggered the war.

    Israel on Friday confirmed its troops were operating in central parts of the city. The ground assault has led to an exodus of around 1 million Palestinians out of the city and has thrown U.N. humanitarian operations based in the area into turmoil.

    Following Biden's speech, hostage families said Saturday time was running out with the onus on both Israel and Hamas to accept the deal.

    “We want to see people coming back from Gaza alive and soon," Gili Roman told The Associated Press. His sister, Yarden Roman-Gat, was taken hostage and freed during a weeklong ceasefire in November, but Yarden's sister-in-law, Carmel, is still being held.

    “This might be the last chance to save lives. Therefore, the current state must be changed and we expect all to adhere to Biden’s call for accepting the deal on the table, immediately. There is no other way towards a better situation for all. Our leadership must not disappoint us. But mostly, all eyes should be on Hamas,” he said.

    The proposal came after what hostage families said was an aggressive meeting Thursday with Israel’s national security adviser, Tzachi Hanegbi, who told them that the government wasn’t ready to sign a deal to bring all of the hostages home and that there was no plan B.

    Hanegbi said this week he expects the war to drag on for another seven months, in order to destroy the military and governing capabilities of Hamas and the smaller Islamic Jihad militant group.

    Netanyahu has promised a “total victory” that would remove Hamas from power, dismantle its military structure and return the hostages, and on Saturday, the government said its conditions for ending the war had not changed. Putting a permanent cease-fire in place before the conditions are fulfilled is a “non-starter," it said.

    Many hostage families blame the government’s lack of will to secure a deal for the deaths of many of the hostages in captivity.

    “We know that the government of Israel has done an awful lot to delay reaching a deal and that has cost the lives of many people who survived in captivity for weeks and weeks and months and months. Our hearts are broken by the amount of people we will receive that are no longer alive,” Sharone Lifschitz, told AP. Her mother Yocheved was freed in the November cease-fire, and her father Oded is still in captivity.

    The first phase of the deal announced by Biden would would last for six weeks and include a “full and complete cease-fire,” a withdrawal of Israeli forces from all densely populated areas of Gaza and the release of a number of hostages, including women, the elderly and the wounded, in exchange for the release of hundreds of Palestinian prisoners.

    The second phase would include the release of all remaining living hostages, including male soldiers, and Israeli forces would withdraw from Gaza. The third phase calls for the start of a major reconstruction of Gaza, which faces decades of rebuilding from devastation caused by the war.

    Biden acknowledged that keeping the Israeli proposal on track would be difficult, saying there were a number of “details to negotiate” to move from the first phase to the second. Biden said that if Hamas fails to fulfil its commitment under the deal, Israel can resume military operations.

    Hamas said in a statement Friday it viewed the proposal presented by Biden “positively” and called on the Israelis to declare explicit commitment to an agreement that includes a permanent cease-fire, a complete withdrawal of Israeli troops from Gaza, a prisoner exchange and other conditions.

    While the proposal is similar to previous ones, the main difference is the readiness to stop the war for an undefined period, according to analysts. It still leaves Israel the option the renew the war and diminish Hamas' ability to govern, but over time, said Michael Milshtein, head of the Palestinian Studies Forum in Dayan Center at Tel Aviv University.

    Still, experts say Biden's speech was one of the first times in the war that provided hope that it might end and bring the hostages home.

    “It was a very good speech ... it seems that Biden is trying to force it on the Israeli government, he was clearly speaking directly to the Israeli people,” said Gershon Baskin, director for the Middle East at the International Communities Organization. Israelis must take to the streets to demand that the government of Israel accept it, he said.

    German Foreign Minister Annalena Baerbock called it an “urgent hope” for lasting peace. She said Saturday it was up to Hamas to show they want to end the conflict.

    Meanwhile fighting continued in Gaza.

    On Saturday, Israel's army said it killed a Hamas fighter responsible for directing attacks in Israel and the West Bank and earlier this week, it said its aircraft killed a Hamas fighter in central Gaza who was head of the technology department for its internal security forces.

    Also on Saturday, Egypt’s state-run Al-Qahera News said officials from Egypt, the United States and Israel would meet in Cairo over the weekend for talks about the Rafah crossing, which has been closed since Israel took over the Palestinian side of it in early May. The meeting comes a week after Biden discussed the closure of the crossing in a call with Egyptian President Abdel-Fattah el-Sissi.

    The crossing is one of the main ways for aid to enter Gaza. Egypt has refused to open its side of the border, fearing the Israeli hold will remain permanent. Egypt has demanded that Palestinians be put back in charge of the facility. The White House has been pressing Egypt to resume the flow of trucks.

    Israel launched its war in Gaza after Hamas’ Oct. 7 attack in which militants stormed into southern Israel, killed some 1,200 people — mostly civilians — and abducted about 250. More than 36,170 Palestinians have been killed in Gaza by Israel's campaign of bombardment and offensives, according to Gaza's Health Ministry. Its count does not differentiate between civilians and combatants.

    ___

    Associated Press writers David McHugh in Frankfurt, Germany and Samy Magdy in Cairo, Egypt, contributed to this report.

    ___

    Follow AP’s coverage of the war at https://apnews.com/hub/israel-hamas-war


    _____________________________________SIGNATURE________________________________________________

    Not today Sir, Probably not tomorrow.............................................. bayfront arena st. pete '94
    you're finally here and I'm a mess................................................... nationwide arena columbus '10
    memories like fingerprints are slowly raising.................................... first niagara center buffalo '13
    another man ..... moved by sleight of hand...................................... joe louis arena detroit '14
  • Halifax2TheMax
    Halifax2TheMax Posts: 42,644
    mickeyrat said:

    https://apnews.com/article/israel-gaza-war-hamas-palestinians-sde-teiman-3ca025f6ca412ce07c0c41cf11c52c6f   Israel maintains a shadowy hospital in the desert for Gaza detainees. Critics allege mistreatment


     
    Israel maintains a shadowy hospital in the desert for Gaza detainees. Critics allege mistreatment
    By JULIA FRANKEL
    Today

    JERUSALEM (AP) — Patients lying shackled and blindfolded on more than a dozen beds inside a white tent in the desert. Surgeries performed without adequate painkillers. Doctors who remain anonymous.

    These are some of the conditions at Israel's only hospital dedicated to treating Palestinians detained by the military in the Gaza Strip, three people who have worked there told The Associated Press, confirming similar accounts from human rights groups.

    While Israel says it detains only suspected militants, many patients have turned out to be non-combatants taken during raids, held without trial and eventually returned to war-torn Gaza.

    Eight months into the Israel-Hamas war, accusations of inhumane treatment at the Sde Teiman military field hospital are on the rise, and the Israeli government is under growing pressure to shut it down. Rights groups and other critics say what began as a temporary place to hold and treat militants after Oct. 7 has morphed into a harsh detention center with too little accountability.

    The military denies the allegations of inhumane treatment and says all detainees needing medical attention receive it.

    The hospital is near the city of Beersheba in southern Israel. It opened beside a detention center on a military base after the Oct. 7 Hamas attack on Israel because some civilian hospitals refused to treat wounded militants. Of the three workers interviewed by AP, two spoke on condition of anonymity because they feared government retribution and public rebuke.

    “We are condemned by the left because we are not fulfilling ethical issues,” said Dr. Yoel Donchin, an anesthesiologist who has worked at Sde Teiman hospital since its earliest days and still works there. “We are condemned from the right because they think we are criminals for treating terrorists.”

    The military this week said it formed a committee to investigate detention center conditions, but it was unclear if that included the hospital. Next week Israel's highest court is set to hear arguments from human rights groups seeking to shut it down.

    Israel has not granted journalists or the International Committee of the Red Cross access to the Sde Teiman facilities.

    Israel has detained some 4,000 Palestinians since Oct. 7, according to official figures, though roughly 1,500 were released after the military determined they were not affiliated with Hamas. Israeli human rights groups say the majority of detainees have at some point passed through Sde Teiman, the country's largest detention center.

    Doctors there say they have treated many who appeared to be non-combatants.

    “Now we have patients that are not so young, sick patients with diabetes and high blood pressure,” said Donchin, the anesthesiologist.

    A soldier who worked at the hospital recounted an elderly man who underwent surgery on his leg without pain medication. “He was screaming and shaking,” said the soldier.

    Between medical treatments, the soldier said patients were housed in the detention center, where they were exposed to squalid conditions and their wounds often developed infections. There was a separate area where older people slept on thin mattresses under floodlights, and a putrid smell hung in the air, he said.

    The military said in a statement that all detainees are “reasonably suspected of being involved in terrorist activity.” It said they receive check-ups upon arrival and are transferred to the hospital when they require more serious treatment.

    A medical worker who saw patients at the facility in the winter recounted teaching hospital workers how to wash wounds.

    Donchin, who largely defended the facility against allegations of mistreatment but was critical of some of its practices, said most patients are diapered and not allowed to use the bathroom, shackled around their arms and legs and blindfolded.

    “Their eyes are covered all the time. I don't know what the security reason for this is,” he said.

    The military disputed the accounts provided to AP, saying patients were handcuffed “in cases where the security risk requires it” and removed when they caused injury. Patients are rarely diapered, it said.

    Dr. Michael Barilan, a professor at the Tel Aviv University Medical School who said he has spoken with over 15 hospital staff, disputed accounts of medical negligence. He said doctors are doing their best under difficult circumstances, and that the blindfolds originated out of a “fear (patients) would retaliate against those taking care of them."

    Days after Oct. 7, roughly 100 Israelis clashed with police outside one of the country's main hospitals in response to false rumors it was treating a militant.

    In the aftermath, some hospitals refused to treat detainees, fearful that doing so could endanger staff and disrupt operations. They were already overwhelmed by people wounded during the Hamas attack and expecting casualties to rise from an impending ground invasion.

    As Israel pulled in scores of wounded Palestinians to Sde Teiman, it became clear the facility's infirmary was not large enough, according to Barilan. An adjacent field hospital was built from scratch.

    Israel's Health Ministry laid out plans for the hospital in a December memo obtained by AP.

    It said patients would be treated while handcuffed and blindfolded. Doctors, drafted into service by the military, would be kept anonymous to protect their "safety, lives and well-being." The ministry referred all questions to the military when reached for comment.

    Still, an April report from Physicians for Human Rights-Israel, drawing on interviews with hospital workers, said doctors at the facility faced “ethical, professional and even emotional distress.” Barilan said turnover has been high.

    Patients with more complicated injuries have been transferred from the field hospital to civilian hospitals, but it has been done covertly to avoid arousing the public's attention, Barilan said. And the process is fraught: The medical worker who spoke with AP said one detainee with a gunshot wound was discharged prematurely from a civilian hospital to Sde Teiman within hours of being treated, endangering his life.

    The field hospital is overseen by military and health officials, but Donchin said parts of its operations are managed by KLP, a private logistics and security company whose website says it specializes in “high-risk environments.” The company did not respond to a request for comment.

    Because it’s not under the same command as the military’s medical corps, the field hospital is not subject to Israel’s Patients Rights Act, according to Physicians for Human Rights-Israel.

    A group from the Israeli Medical Association visited the hospital earlier this year but kept its findings private. The association did not respond to requests for comment.

    The military told AP that 36 people from Gaza have died in Israel’s detention centers since Oct. 7, some of them because of illnesses or wounds sustained in the war. Physicians for Human Rights-Israel has alleged that some died from medical negligence.

    Khaled Hammouda, a surgeon from Gaza, spent 22 days at one of Israel's detention centers. He does not know where he was taken because he was blindfolded while he was transported. But he said he recognized a picture of Sde Teiman and said he saw at least one detainee, a prominent Gaza doctor who is believed to have been there.

    Hammouda recalled asking a soldier if a pale 18-year-old who appeared to be suffering from internal bleeding could be taken to a doctor. The soldier took the teenager away, gave him intravenous fluids for a few hours, and then returned him.

    “I told them, ‘He could die,'" Hammouda said. “‘They told me this is the limit.'”

    ___

    AP writer Sarah El Deeb in Beirut contributed to this report.


    Reminds me of a certain someone. Hmmmmm, who could it be? Hmmmmmmm, oh yea! But I can’t say it because you know, something about something or something or other.
    09/15/1998 & 09/16/1998, Mansfield, MA; 08/29/00 08/30/00, Mansfield, MA; 07/02/03, 07/03/03, Mansfield, MA; 09/28/04, 09/29/04, Boston, MA; 09/22/05, Halifax, NS; 05/24/06, 05/25/06, Boston, MA; 07/22/06, 07/23/06, Gorge, WA; 06/27/2008, Hartford; 06/28/08, 06/30/08, Mansfield; 08/18/2009, O2, London, UK; 10/30/09, 10/31/09, Philadelphia, PA; 05/15/10, Hartford, CT; 05/17/10, Boston, MA; 05/20/10, 05/21/10, NY, NY; 06/22/10, Dublin, IRE; 06/23/10, Northern Ireland; 09/03/11, 09/04/11, Alpine Valley, WI; 09/11/11, 09/12/11, Toronto, Ont; 09/14/11, Ottawa, Ont; 09/15/11, Hamilton, Ont; 07/02/2012, Prague, Czech Republic; 07/04/2012 & 07/05/2012, Berlin, Germany; 07/07/2012, Stockholm, Sweden; 09/30/2012, Missoula, MT; 07/16/2013, London, Ont; 07/19/2013, Chicago, IL; 10/15/2013 & 10/16/2013, Worcester, MA; 10/21/2013 & 10/22/2013, Philadelphia, PA; 10/25/2013, Hartford, CT; 11/29/2013, Portland, OR; 11/30/2013, Spokane, WA; 12/04/2013, Vancouver, BC; 12/06/2013, Seattle, WA; 10/03/2014, St. Louis. MO; 10/22/2014, Denver, CO; 10/26/2015, New York, NY; 04/23/2016, New Orleans, LA; 04/28/2016 & 04/29/2016, Philadelphia, PA; 05/01/2016 & 05/02/2016, New York, NY; 05/08/2016, Ottawa, Ont.; 05/10/2016 & 05/12/2016, Toronto, Ont.; 08/05/2016 & 08/07/2016, Boston, MA; 08/20/2016 & 08/22/2016, Chicago, IL; 07/01/2018, Prague, Czech Republic; 07/03/2018, Krakow, Poland; 07/05/2018, Berlin, Germany; 09/02/2018 & 09/04/2018, Boston, MA; 09/08/2022, Toronto, Ont; 09/11/2022, New York, NY; 09/14/2022, Camden, NJ; 09/02/2023, St. Paul, MN; 05/04/2024 & 05/06/2024, Vancouver, BC; 05/10/2024, Portland, OR;

    Libtardaplorable©. And proud of it.

    Brilliantati©
  • Halifax2TheMax
    Halifax2TheMax Posts: 42,644
    “Reasonably suspected.”

    ”Reasonably suspected.” Let that sink in. From “the only ‘democracy’ in the Middle East.”

    ”Reasonably suspected.”
    09/15/1998 & 09/16/1998, Mansfield, MA; 08/29/00 08/30/00, Mansfield, MA; 07/02/03, 07/03/03, Mansfield, MA; 09/28/04, 09/29/04, Boston, MA; 09/22/05, Halifax, NS; 05/24/06, 05/25/06, Boston, MA; 07/22/06, 07/23/06, Gorge, WA; 06/27/2008, Hartford; 06/28/08, 06/30/08, Mansfield; 08/18/2009, O2, London, UK; 10/30/09, 10/31/09, Philadelphia, PA; 05/15/10, Hartford, CT; 05/17/10, Boston, MA; 05/20/10, 05/21/10, NY, NY; 06/22/10, Dublin, IRE; 06/23/10, Northern Ireland; 09/03/11, 09/04/11, Alpine Valley, WI; 09/11/11, 09/12/11, Toronto, Ont; 09/14/11, Ottawa, Ont; 09/15/11, Hamilton, Ont; 07/02/2012, Prague, Czech Republic; 07/04/2012 & 07/05/2012, Berlin, Germany; 07/07/2012, Stockholm, Sweden; 09/30/2012, Missoula, MT; 07/16/2013, London, Ont; 07/19/2013, Chicago, IL; 10/15/2013 & 10/16/2013, Worcester, MA; 10/21/2013 & 10/22/2013, Philadelphia, PA; 10/25/2013, Hartford, CT; 11/29/2013, Portland, OR; 11/30/2013, Spokane, WA; 12/04/2013, Vancouver, BC; 12/06/2013, Seattle, WA; 10/03/2014, St. Louis. MO; 10/22/2014, Denver, CO; 10/26/2015, New York, NY; 04/23/2016, New Orleans, LA; 04/28/2016 & 04/29/2016, Philadelphia, PA; 05/01/2016 & 05/02/2016, New York, NY; 05/08/2016, Ottawa, Ont.; 05/10/2016 & 05/12/2016, Toronto, Ont.; 08/05/2016 & 08/07/2016, Boston, MA; 08/20/2016 & 08/22/2016, Chicago, IL; 07/01/2018, Prague, Czech Republic; 07/03/2018, Krakow, Poland; 07/05/2018, Berlin, Germany; 09/02/2018 & 09/04/2018, Boston, MA; 09/08/2022, Toronto, Ont; 09/11/2022, New York, NY; 09/14/2022, Camden, NJ; 09/02/2023, St. Paul, MN; 05/04/2024 & 05/06/2024, Vancouver, BC; 05/10/2024, Portland, OR;

    Libtardaplorable©. And proud of it.

    Brilliantati©
  • mickeyrat
    mickeyrat Posts: 44,762
    because fuck the hostages

    https://apnews.com/article/israel-hamas-war-news-01-06-2024-8c06dda3a8e20491b5a34377c60bb827   Israel describes a permanent cease-fire in Gaza as a 'nonstarter,' undermining Biden's proposal


     
    Israel describes a permanent cease-fire in Gaza as a 'nonstarter,' undermining Biden's proposal
    By SAM MEDNICK and WAFAA SHURAFA
    2 hours ago

    TEL AVIV, Israel (AP) — Israel’s prime minister on Saturday called a permanent cease-fire in Gaza a “nonstarter” until long-standing conditions for ending the war are met, appearing to undermine a proposal that U.S. President Joe Biden had announced as an Israeli one.

    The statement from Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu's office came a day after Biden outlined the plan, and as families of Israeli hostages held by Hamas called for all parties to immediately accept the proposal. A major demonstration in Israel on Saturday night urged the government to act now.

    And a joint statement by mediators the U.S., Egypt and Qatar pressed Israel and Hamas, saying the proposed deal “offers a road map for a permanent cease-fire and ending the crisis” and gives immediate relief to both the hostages and Gaza residents.

    But Netanyahu's statement said that “Israel’s conditions for ending the war have not changed: the destruction of Hamas’ military and governing capabilities, the freeing of all hostages and ensuring that Gaza no longer poses a threat to Israel. Under the proposal, Israel will continue to insist these conditions are met before a permanent cease-fire is put in place."

    In a separate statement, Netanyahu accepted an invitation from U.S. congressional leaders to deliver an address at the Capitol, a show of wartime support for Israel. No date has been set.

    Biden on Friday asserted that Hamas is “no longer capable” of carrying out a large-scale attack on Israel like the one by the militant group in October that started the war. He urged Israel and Hamas to reach an agreement to release about 100 remaining hostages, along with the bodies of around 30 more, for an extended cease-fire.

    Cease-fire talks halted last month after a push by the U.S. and other mediators to secure a deal in hopes of averting a full-scale Israeli invasion of Gaza's southern city of Rafah. Israel says the Rafah operation is key to uprooting Hamas fighters responsible for the Oct. 7 attack.

    Israel on Friday confirmed its troops were operating in central parts of the city. The ground assault has led around 1 million Palestinians to leave Rafah and thrown humanitarian operations into turmoil. The World Food Program has called living conditions “horrific and apocalyptic" as hunger grows.

    Families of hostages said that time was running out.

    “This might be the last chance to save lives," Gili Roman told The Associated Press. His sister, Yarden Roman-Gat, was freed during a weeklong cease-fire in November, but sister-in-law Carmel is still held. “Our leadership must not disappoint us. But mostly, all eyes should be on Hamas," Roman said.

    Families described an aggressive meeting Thursday with Israel’s national security adviser, Tzachi Hanegbi, who told them the government wasn’t ready to sign a deal to bring all hostages home and there was no plan B.

    Hanegbi said this week he expects the war to continue another seven months to destroy Hamas' military and governing capabilities.

    Many hostages' families accuse the government of a lack of will.

    “We know that the government of Israel has done an awful lot to delay reaching a deal, and that has cost the lives of many people who survived in captivity for weeks and weeks and months and months,” Sharone Lifschitz said. Her mother, Yocheved, was freed in November but her father, Oded, is still held.

    The first phase of the deal proposed by Biden would last for six weeks and include a “full and complete cease-fire,” a withdrawal of Israeli forces from all densely populated areas of Gaza and the release of a number of hostages, including women, older people and the wounded, in exchange for the release of hundreds of Palestinian prisoners.

    The second phase would include the release of all remaining living hostages, including male soldiers, and the withdrawal of Israeli forces from Gaza. The third phase calls for the start of a major reconstruction of Gaza, which faces decades of rebuilding from the war's devastation.

    Biden acknowledged that keeping the proposal on track would be difficult, with “details to negotiate” to move from the first phase to the second. Biden said if Hamas fails to fulfil its commitment under the deal, Israel can resume military operations.

    Hamas has said it viewed the proposal “positively” and called on Israel to declare an explicit commitment to an agreement that includes a permanent cease-fire, a complete withdrawal of Israeli troops from Gaza, a prisoner exchange and other conditions.

    In Deir al-Balah, where many Palestinians have fled following Israel’s assault on Rafah, there was some hope.

    “This proposal came late, but better late than never,” said Akram Abu Al-Hasan.

    The main difference from previous proposals is the readiness to stop the war for an undefined period, according to analysts. It leaves Israel the option to renew the war and diminish Hamas' ability to govern, but over time, said Michael Milshtein, head of the Palestinian Studies Forum in Dayan Center at Tel Aviv University.

    “It was a very good speech ... it seems that Biden is trying to force it on the Israeli government. He was clearly speaking directly to the Israeli people,” said Gershon Baskin, director for the Middle East at the International Communities Organization.

    Also on Saturday, Egypt’s state-run Al-Qahera News said officials from Egypt, the United States and Israel would meet in Cairo over the weekend about the Rafah crossing, which has been closed since Israel took over the Palestinian side in May.

    The crossing is a main way for aid to enter Gaza. Egypt has refused to open its side, fearing the Israeli control will remain permanent. Egypt wants Palestinians to be in charge again.

    Hamas’ attack on Oct. 7 killed around 1,200 people — mostly civilians — and abducted about 250. More than 36,370 Palestinians have been killed in Gaza by Israel's campaign of bombardment and offensives, according to Gaza's Health Ministry. Its count doesn't differentiate between civilians and combatants.

    ___

    Shurafa reported from Deir al-Balah, Gaza Strip. David McHugh in Frankfurt, Germany, and Samy Magdy in Cairo, Egypt, contributed to this report.

    ___

    Follow AP’s coverage of the war at https://apnews.com/hub/israel-hamas-war


    _____________________________________SIGNATURE________________________________________________

    Not today Sir, Probably not tomorrow.............................................. bayfront arena st. pete '94
    you're finally here and I'm a mess................................................... nationwide arena columbus '10
    memories like fingerprints are slowly raising.................................... first niagara center buffalo '13
    another man ..... moved by sleight of hand...................................... joe louis arena detroit '14
  • gimmesometruth27
    gimmesometruth27 St. Fuckin Louis Posts: 24,402
    mickeyrat said:
    because fuck the hostages

    https://apnews.com/article/israel-hamas-war-news-01-06-2024-8c06dda3a8e20491b5a34377c60bb827   Israel describes a permanent cease-fire in Gaza as a 'nonstarter,' undermining Biden's proposal


     
    Israel describes a permanent cease-fire in Gaza as a 'nonstarter,' undermining Biden's proposal
    By SAM MEDNICK and WAFAA SHURAFA
    2 hours ago

    TEL AVIV, Israel (AP) — Israel’s prime minister on Saturday called a permanent cease-fire in Gaza a “nonstarter” until long-standing conditions for ending the war are met, appearing to undermine a proposal that U.S. President Joe Biden had announced as an Israeli one.

    The statement from Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu's office came a day after Biden outlined the plan, and as families of Israeli hostages held by Hamas called for all parties to immediately accept the proposal. A major demonstration in Israel on Saturday night urged the government to act now.

    And a joint statement by mediators the U.S., Egypt and Qatar pressed Israel and Hamas, saying the proposed deal “offers a road map for a permanent cease-fire and ending the crisis” and gives immediate relief to both the hostages and Gaza residents.

    But Netanyahu's statement said that “Israel’s conditions for ending the war have not changed: the destruction of Hamas’ military and governing capabilities, the freeing of all hostages and ensuring that Gaza no longer poses a threat to Israel. Under the proposal, Israel will continue to insist these conditions are met before a permanent cease-fire is put in place."

    In a separate statement, Netanyahu accepted an invitation from U.S. congressional leaders to deliver an address at the Capitol, a show of wartime support for Israel. No date has been set.

    Biden on Friday asserted that Hamas is “no longer capable” of carrying out a large-scale attack on Israel like the one by the militant group in October that started the war. He urged Israel and Hamas to reach an agreement to release about 100 remaining hostages, along with the bodies of around 30 more, for an extended cease-fire.

    Cease-fire talks halted last month after a push by the U.S. and other mediators to secure a deal in hopes of averting a full-scale Israeli invasion of Gaza's southern city of Rafah. Israel says the Rafah operation is key to uprooting Hamas fighters responsible for the Oct. 7 attack.

    Israel on Friday confirmed its troops were operating in central parts of the city. The ground assault has led around 1 million Palestinians to leave Rafah and thrown humanitarian operations into turmoil. The World Food Program has called living conditions “horrific and apocalyptic" as hunger grows.

    Families of hostages said that time was running out.

    “This might be the last chance to save lives," Gili Roman told The Associated Press. His sister, Yarden Roman-Gat, was freed during a weeklong cease-fire in November, but sister-in-law Carmel is still held. “Our leadership must not disappoint us. But mostly, all eyes should be on Hamas," Roman said.

    Families described an aggressive meeting Thursday with Israel’s national security adviser, Tzachi Hanegbi, who told them the government wasn’t ready to sign a deal to bring all hostages home and there was no plan B.

    Hanegbi said this week he expects the war to continue another seven months to destroy Hamas' military and governing capabilities.

    Many hostages' families accuse the government of a lack of will.

    “We know that the government of Israel has done an awful lot to delay reaching a deal, and that has cost the lives of many people who survived in captivity for weeks and weeks and months and months,” Sharone Lifschitz said. Her mother, Yocheved, was freed in November but her father, Oded, is still held.

    The first phase of the deal proposed by Biden would last for six weeks and include a “full and complete cease-fire,” a withdrawal of Israeli forces from all densely populated areas of Gaza and the release of a number of hostages, including women, older people and the wounded, in exchange for the release of hundreds of Palestinian prisoners.

    The second phase would include the release of all remaining living hostages, including male soldiers, and the withdrawal of Israeli forces from Gaza. The third phase calls for the start of a major reconstruction of Gaza, which faces decades of rebuilding from the war's devastation.

    Biden acknowledged that keeping the proposal on track would be difficult, with “details to negotiate” to move from the first phase to the second. Biden said if Hamas fails to fulfil its commitment under the deal, Israel can resume military operations.

    Hamas has said it viewed the proposal “positively” and called on Israel to declare an explicit commitment to an agreement that includes a permanent cease-fire, a complete withdrawal of Israeli troops from Gaza, a prisoner exchange and other conditions.

    In Deir al-Balah, where many Palestinians have fled following Israel’s assault on Rafah, there was some hope.

    “This proposal came late, but better late than never,” said Akram Abu Al-Hasan.

    The main difference from previous proposals is the readiness to stop the war for an undefined period, according to analysts. It leaves Israel the option to renew the war and diminish Hamas' ability to govern, but over time, said Michael Milshtein, head of the Palestinian Studies Forum in Dayan Center at Tel Aviv University.

    “It was a very good speech ... it seems that Biden is trying to force it on the Israeli government. He was clearly speaking directly to the Israeli people,” said Gershon Baskin, director for the Middle East at the International Communities Organization.

    Also on Saturday, Egypt’s state-run Al-Qahera News said officials from Egypt, the United States and Israel would meet in Cairo over the weekend about the Rafah crossing, which has been closed since Israel took over the Palestinian side in May.

    The crossing is a main way for aid to enter Gaza. Egypt has refused to open its side, fearing the Israeli control will remain permanent. Egypt wants Palestinians to be in charge again.

    Hamas’ attack on Oct. 7 killed around 1,200 people — mostly civilians — and abducted about 250. More than 36,370 Palestinians have been killed in Gaza by Israel's campaign of bombardment and offensives, according to Gaza's Health Ministry. Its count doesn't differentiate between civilians and combatants.

    ___

    Shurafa reported from Deir al-Balah, Gaza Strip. David McHugh in Frankfurt, Germany, and Samy Magdy in Cairo, Egypt, contributed to this report.

    ___

    Follow AP’s coverage of the war at https://apnews.com/hub/israel-hamas-war


    because of course.
    "You can tell the greatness of a man by what makes him angry."  - Lincoln

    "Well, you tell him that I don't talk to suckas."
  • mickeyrat
    mickeyrat Posts: 44,762
    https://apnews.com/article/israel-hamas-war-investigations-gaza-military-wck-b0b6107d449ca4e6d6a1b59749f15814   The Israeli army says it investigates itself. Where do those investigations stand?

     
    The Israeli army says it investigates itself. Where do those investigations stand?
    By JULIA FRANKEL and JACK JEFFERY
    Today

    JERUSALEM (AP) — Throughout its grinding seven-month war against Hamas, Israel has pledged to investigate a series of deadly events in which its military forces are suspected of wrongdoing. The commitment comes in the face of mounting claims — from human rights groups and the International Criminal Court 's chief prosecutor — that the country's leaders are committing war crimes in Hamas-ruled Gaza.

    In one of the highest-profile cases, an attack on a World Central Kitchen convoy that killed five foreign aid workers, the Israeli army promptly published its findings, acknowledged misconduct by its forces and dismissed two soldiers. But other investigations remain open, and admissions of guilt are rare.

    Israel’s Military Advocate General, Maj. Gen. Yifat Tomer-Yerushalmi, said this week that the military is investigating about 70 cases of alleged wrongdoing. She gave few details. The military refused to disclose the full list of investigations and told The Associated Press it could only respond to queries about specific probes.

    A look at some of the investigations that have been publicly announced:

    A DEADLY STRIKE ON A TENT CAMP KILLS DISPLACED FAMILIES

    On Tuesday, Israel revealed the preliminary results of an investigation into a deadly strike on a tent camp sheltering displaced families in the southern Gaza city of Rafah.

    Sunday's strike killed at least 45 people and caused widespread destruction. Most of the victims were women and children, according to Gaza’s Health Ministry, which doesn't distinguish between the deaths of civilians and Hamas militants.

    The military's chief spokesman, Rear Adm. Daniel Hagari, said a preliminary investigation found that the Israeli munitions used that day in efforts to eliminate two Hamas militants were too small to be the source of a fire that broke out.

    Hagari said the destruction may have been caused by secondary explosions, possibly from Palestinian militants’ weapons in the area. Hamas did not respond to that explanation, but a member of the militants' political bureau remarked Tuesday that Israel “believes that it is deceiving the world, with its false claim that it did not intend to kill and burn children and women, and its claim to investigate its crimes.”

    The Israeli military said in a statement that the investigation had been turned over to a fact-finding group that operates independently outside the army’s chain of command. Those findings are then handed to the military advocate general, who decides if there should be disciplinary measures. It's not clear how long the probe will last.

    SCORES OF CIVILIANS ARE SHOT DEAD AROUND A FLOUR CONVOY

    In February, witnesses said Israeli troops fired on a crowd of Palestinians waiting for aid in Gaza City. At least 104 people were killed and 760 were wounded, according to Gaza’s Health Ministry, which described it as a massacre.

    Army officials initially said that dozens of Palestinians were killed in a stampede when huge crowds tried to grab supplies off the pre-dawn convoy of 30 army trucks carrying flour toward hard-hit northern Gaza. But the military’s preliminary investigation, released a week later, appeared to back off that, saying only that the stampede caused “incidents of significant harm to civilians.”

    The investigation found that troops opened fire at some who approached them and posed a threat to them and that a tank also fired warning shots to disperse “suspects.” But it did not directly address how the people were killed.

    The military said the case is also being investigated by the fact-finding group.

    AL-AHLI HOSPITAL EXPLOSION SETS OFF DEADLY INFERNO

    An explosion in October in the courtyard of the Al-Ahli hospital, where thousands of Palestinians had sought shelter or medical treatment, set off an inferno that burned men, women and children alive.

    There are still conflicting claims over what happened.

    Officials in Gaza quickly said an Israeli airstrike had hit the hospital, killing at least 500 people. Images of the aftermath ignited protests across the region.

    Within hours, Israeli officials said they had conducted an investigation and determined that they had not been involved. They released live video, audio and other evidence that it said showed the blast was caused by a rocket misfired by Islamic Jihad, another Palestinian militant group.

    Islamic Jihad denied responsibility.

    An AP investigation, along with U.S. and French intelligence assessments, concluded a misfired rocket likely caused the explosion.

    A PALESTINIAN MAN IS SHOT WHILE WALKING WITH OTHERS

    In January, the Israeli government announced it was investigating the death of a Palestinian man who was fatally shot while walking with four others.

    Video footage shows one of the men holding a white flag — the international symbol of surrender — and the others behind him holding their hands in the air. They then scramble backward as several shots ring out.

    In a second clip, one of the men is lying on the ground. The shooter is not visible in the video but before the shots are fired, the camera pans, showing what looks to be an Israeli tank positioned nearby. Ahmed Hijazi, a citizen journalist who filmed the episode, told The Associated Press that an Israeli tank fired on the group.

    The army said it conducted an in-depth investigation and found the tank did not fire at the men. It also said it was “not possible to determine with certainty” whether the man was killed by Israeli fire.

    FOUR PALESTINIANS ARE SHOT ON A DIRT ROAD

    On March 22, Israel’s military launched an investigation after footage emerged appearing to show the bombing of five Palestinians near the southern Gaza city of Khan Younis.

    Aerial footage circulating on social media shows four men walking along a dirt road before a strike hits them, killing all four instantly. Another man farther along the road tries to run away before he is hit and killed. The origin of the footage remains unclear.

    The military said the investigation had been turned over to the independent fact-finding group.

    A GAZA SURGEON DIES IN AN ISRAELI PRISON

    Famed Gaza surgeon Adnan al-Bursh died in an Israeli prison after he was rounded up in an arrest raid on Al Awda hospital in mid-April, according to the United Nations.

    Bursh led the orthopedic department at Al-Shifa Hospital. At the time of his arrest in December, he was reportedly in good health and operating on patients, the U.N. said.

    But those who saw Bursh in detention reported that he looked depleted and bore signs of violence, according to Physicians for Human Rights-Israel. Israel's military and police did not respond to requests for comment.

    Palestinian detainees who have returned from Israeli detention have reported beatings, harsh interrogations and neglect while in Israeli custody. Israel has denied the reports. Bursh was transferred to Israel's Ofer military prison in the West Bank, where he died.

    Israeli police will conduct an autopsy of Bursh’s body with a doctor from Physicians for Human Rights-Israel present, the group said, noting it had filed a petition on behalf of Bursh’s family. It's unclear when the autopsy will be conducted.

    Authorities have released no information on the cause of death and it is unclear who is investigating. Israel's military and police referred questions to Israel's Prison Service, which referred questions back to the military.


    _____________________________________SIGNATURE________________________________________________

    Not today Sir, Probably not tomorrow.............................................. bayfront arena st. pete '94
    you're finally here and I'm a mess................................................... nationwide arena columbus '10
    memories like fingerprints are slowly raising.................................... first niagara center buffalo '13
    another man ..... moved by sleight of hand...................................... joe louis arena detroit '14
  • pjl44
    pjl44 Posts: 10,581
    "No Pride in Genocide." Could be an interesting month!

    https://www.tmz.com/2024/06/02/pro-palestine-protesters-block-philadelphia-pride-parade-wild-video-shows/
  • mickeyrat
    mickeyrat Posts: 44,762
    https://apnews.com/article/israel-hamas-rafah-latest-06-03-2024-4531e5bc3af4b808352a48f5cbe68f60   The Latest | Israeli strikes in central Gaza kill at least 11 as the US pushes a cease-fire plan

    The Latest | Israeli strikes in central Gaza kill at least 11 as the US pushes a cease-fire plan
    By The Associated Press
    49 mins ago

    Palestinian health officials said Israeli strikes killed 11 people overnight into Monday, including a woman and three children, in central Gaza.

    A strike on a home in the built-up Bureij refugee camp late Sunday killed four people, including the three children. The second strike, early Monday, killed seven people, including a woman, in the Nuseirat refugee camp.

    Earlier Monday, the Israeli military said that the body of a man presumed to be a hostage was found in a community near the Gaza border that Hamas militants attacked on Oct. 7.

    U.S. President Joe Biden said Friday that Israel has offered Hamas a three-phase cease-fire and hostage release deal, declaring it was time to end the fighting in Gaza and that Hamas is “no longer capable” of carrying out another large-scale attack on Israel.

    Israel is expanding its offensive in the southern Gaza city of Rafah, once the main hub of humanitarian aid operations. The Israeli invasion has largely cut off the flow of food, medicine and other supplies to Palestinians facing widespread hunger. Israel faces growing international criticism over the huge cost in civilian lives and the widespread destruction caused by its nearly 8-month war with Hamas.

    Israeli bombardments and ground operations in the besieged territory have killed more than 36,000 Palestinians, according to Gaza's Health Ministry, which does not distinguish between combatants and civilians.

    Israel launched its war in Gaza after Hamas’ Oct. 7 attack, in which militants stormed into southern Israel, killed some 1,200 people — mostly civilians — and abducted about 250. Israel says around 100 hostages are still captive in Gaza, along with the bodies of around 30 more.

    Currently:

    — Israeli leader Netanyahu faces growing pressure at home after Biden’s Gaza proposal

    — Israel seeks a ‘ governing alternative ’ to Hamas in Gaza. It’s been tried and failed before

    — Israel maintains a shadowy hospital in the desert for Gaza detainees. Critics allege mistreatment

    — Two Lebanese shepherds killed amid ongoing escalation along Lebanon-Israel border

    — Maldives will ban Israelis from entering the country over the war in Gaza

    — Condemnations mount over Israeli proposal to label UN aid agency a terrorist group

    — Ultra-Orthodox protesters block Jerusalem roads ahead of Israeli court decision on draft exemptions

    — Parade for Israel in NYC focuses on solidarity this year as Gaza war casts a grim shadow

    — Michael Douglas pays solidarity visit to southern Israel

    Follow AP’s coverage of the war in Gaza at https://apnews.com/hub/israel-hamas-war

    Here's the latest:

    ISRAELI STRIKES KILL 11 IN GAZA

    DEIR AL-BALAH, Gaza Strip — Palestinian health officials said Israeli strikes killed 11 people overnight into Monday, including a woman and three children, in central Gaza.

    A strike on a home in the built-up Bureij refugee camp late Sunday killed four people, including the three children. The second strike, early Monday, killed seven people, including a woman, in the Nuseirat refugee camp.

    Both camps date back to the 1948 war surrounding Israel’s creation, when hundreds of thousands of Palestinians fled or were driven out of areas that became part of the new state. The refugees and their descendants make up most of Gaza’s population.

    An Associated Press reporter counted the bodies as they arrived at the Al-Aqsa Martyrs Hospital in the central town of Deir al-Balah on Monday and confirmed the details with hospital records.

    Israel says it tries to avoid harming civilians and blames Hamas for their deaths because the militant group places fighters, tunnels and rocket launchers in dense, residential areas. The military rarely comments on individual strikes, which often kill women and children.

    IRAN'S TOP LEADER SAYS ISRAEL IS ‘MELTING DOWN’

    Iran’s Supreme Leader Ayatollah Ali Khamenei Monday said Israel is melting down due to its war against Hamas in Gaza.

    Speaking in a ceremony marking 35th anniversary of late leader of the county Ayatollah Ruhollah Khomeini, Khamenei said “Today, the Zionist regime gradually melts down before eyes of the world’s people.” State television broadcast his speech live.

    In a nearly 55-minute speech, the leader said that Israel's response to the Oct. 7th attack by Hamas that began the war placed it in a “dead-end corridor.”

    Khamenei also said that the war had derailed Israel's U.S.-backed efforts to reach accomodations with regional neighbors, which he characterized as part of an Israeli plot to dominate the region.

    ISRAELI MILITARY REPORTS SHOOTING DOWN MISSILE OVER RED SEA

    TEL AVIV, Israel — The Israeli military says it shot down a surface-to-surface missile fired toward southern Israel from the Red Sea.

    There were no reports of casualties or damage in Monday’s incident, which set off air raid sirens in the southernmost Israeli city of Eilat.

    The military did not specify the missile’s origin, but it was likely fired by Yemen’s Houthi rebels, who have claimed several drone and missile strikes on Israel in recent months. Nearly all the projectiles have been intercepted.

    The Iran-backed Houthis have also repeatedly attacked international shipping in the Red Sea, portraying their actions as a blockade of Israel in support of the Palestinians. But most of the ships that have been targeted have no known ties to Israel.

    ISRAEL FINDS BODY OF MAN THOUGHT TO BE HOSTAGE

    TEL AVIV, Israel — The Israeli military says the body of a presumed hostage was found in a community near the Gaza border that Hamas militants had attacked on Oct. 7.

    Dolev Yehud, 35, was thought to be among scores of hostages held in Gaza until Monday, when the military announced the discovery of his body and said he had been killed in the initial attack.

    His remains were found at Kibbutz Nir Oz, where he lived and worked as a paramedic. Dolev’s wife, Sigal, who was nine months pregnant on Oct. 7, gave birth to their fourth child nine days after the attack, according to Israeli media.

    Medical professionals and scientists, including archaeologists, have spent months trying to identify remains found in communities attacked by Palestinian militants in the wide-ranging assault that ignited the war in Gaza.

    The surprise attack into Israel killed some 1,200 people, mostly civilians. The militants abducted around 250 people, more than 100 of whom were released during a cease-fire last year.

    The Israeli government says militants in Gaza are still holding around 85 hostages and the remains of 39 others.

    Israel launched a massive offensive in response to the attack that has killed over 36,000 Palestinians, according to local health officials who do not distinguish between civilians and combatants in their count.

     

    _____________________________________SIGNATURE________________________________________________

    Not today Sir, Probably not tomorrow.............................................. bayfront arena st. pete '94
    you're finally here and I'm a mess................................................... nationwide arena columbus '10
    memories like fingerprints are slowly raising.................................... first niagara center buffalo '13
    another man ..... moved by sleight of hand...................................... joe louis arena detroit '14
  • pjl44
    pjl44 Posts: 10,581
    Right on, Jonny Greenwood 

    https://x.com/JnnyG/status/1798028883553554677
  • mickeyrat
    mickeyrat Posts: 44,762
    https://apnews.com/article/international-criminal-court-netanyahu-congress-war-crimes-1114b8fd0c6b9f3a83c3ed5919da3836   House passes proposal sanctioning top war-crimes court after it sought Netanyahu arrest warrant


     
    House passes proposal sanctioning top war-crimes court after it sought Netanyahu arrest warrant
    By FARNOUSH AMIRI
    34 mins ago

    WASHINGTON (AP) — The House passed legislation Tuesday that would sanction the International Criminal Court for requesting arrest warrants for Israeli Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu and other Israeli officials.

    The 247-155 vote amounts to Congress’ first legislative rebuke of the war crimes court since its stunning decision last month to seek arrest warrants for the leaders of Israel and Hamas. The move was widely denounced in Washington, creating a rare moment of unity on Israel even as partisan divisions over the war with Hamas intensified.

    While the House bill was expected to pass Tuesday, it managed to attract only modest Democratic support, despite an outpouring of outrage at the court's decision, dulling its chances in the Senate. The White House opposes the legislation, calling it overreach.

    Both the Republican and Democratic leaders of the House Foreign Affairs Committee acknowledged the bill in question is unlikely to become law and left the door open to further negotiation with the White House. They said it would be better for Congress to be united against the Hague-based court.

    “We’re always strongest, particularly on this committee, when we speak with one voice as one nation, in this case to the ICC and to the judges,” GOP Rep. Mike McCaul, chair of the Foreign Affairs Committee, said during House debate. "A partisan messaging bill was not my intention here but that is where we are.”

    State Department spokesperson Matt Miller reiterated the administration's opposition to the sanctions bill.

    “We have made clear that while we oppose the decision taken by the prosecutor of the ICC, we don’t think it is appropriate, especially while there are ongoing investigations inside Israel looking at somebody’s very same questions, and we were willing to work with Congress on what a response might look like but we don’t support sanctions," Miller said.

    The House bill would apply sweeping economic sanctions and visa restrictions to individuals and judges associated with the ICC, including their family members. Democrats labeled the approach as “overly broad,” warning it could ensnare Americans and U.S. companies that do important work with the court.

    “This bill would have a chilling effect on the ICC as an institution which could hamper the court’s efforts to prosecute the dubious atrocities that have been perpetrated in many places around the world, from Ukraine to Uganda," said Rep. Gregory Meeks, the top Democrat on the Foreign Affairs Committee.

    The legislation reprimanding the ICC was just the latest show of support from House Republicans for Israel since the Oct. 7 attack by Hamas that ignited the war. Republicans have held several votes related to Israel in recent months, highlighting divisions among Democrats over support for the U.S. ally.

    Congressional leaders have invited Netanyahu to address a joint meeting of Congress this summer, which is likely to further inflame tensions over Israel's handling of the war. Many Democrats are expected to boycott the speech.

    Both the ICC and the United Nations’ highest court, the International Court of Justice, have begun to investigate allegations that both Israel and Hamas have committed genocide during the seven-month war.

    Last month, ICC's prosecutor, Karim Khan, accused Netanyahu, his defense minister Yoav Gallant, and three Hamas leaders — Yahya Sinwar, Mohammed Deif and Ismail Haniyeh — of war crimes and crimes against humanity in the Gaza Strip and Israel.

    Netanyahu and other Israeli leaders condemned the ICC's move as disgraceful and antisemitic. President Joe Biden and members of Congress also lambasted the prosecutor and supported Israel’s right to defend itself.

    Israel is not a member of the court, so even if the arrest warrants are issued, Netanyahu and Gallant do not face any immediate risk of prosecution. But the threat of arrest could make it difficult for Israeli leaders to travel abroad.

    “Failing to act here in the Congress would make us complicit with the ICC’s illegitimate actions and we must not stay silent,” McCaul said. “We must stand with our allies.”


    _____________________________________SIGNATURE________________________________________________

    Not today Sir, Probably not tomorrow.............................................. bayfront arena st. pete '94
    you're finally here and I'm a mess................................................... nationwide arena columbus '10
    memories like fingerprints are slowly raising.................................... first niagara center buffalo '13
    another man ..... moved by sleight of hand...................................... joe louis arena detroit '14

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