Forgive me, as it’s hard to stay current on this thread, but (given that the Seattle dates at end of May seem uncertain and that there was some discussion about possible Gorge dates)….has there been any discussion of Saturday June 1 at the Gorge? Just thought it might be fun for the band as RCHP are playing the night before. Anyways, I know nothing, just curious and restless…
1992-07-21 Vancouver
1993-9-4 Vancouver
1996-9-16 Seattle
1998-7-19 Vancouver, 7-21 Seattle, Memorial Stadium
2000-11-6 Seattle
2001-10-22 Seattle
2002 -12-09 Seattle
2009-8-17 Manchester, 9-25 Vancouver
2011-6-16 Seattle (EV), 9-3/4 PJ20, 9-25 Vancouver
2012-6-27 Amsterdam (#2!)
2013-11-29 Portland, 12-4 Vancouver, 12-6 Seattle
2014-AUS - 1-26 Sydney, 1-31 Adelaide, 2-11/12 EV Sydney State Theatre, 2-13 EV Opera House
2014 - USA - Memphis, Detroit, MOLINE, St. Paul, MILWAUKEE, Denver, 25/26 Bridge School
2016 - Lexington, Philly x 2, MSG x 2, Quebec City, Ottawa, Toronto x 2, Pemberton, Fenway x 2, Wrigley x 2 2018 - Seattle x 2, Missoula, Fenway x 2
I’d betting on a Pearl Jam appearance at Ohana. Pearl Jam’s Instagram is advertising it, which it would anyways for Eddie but I’m pretty sure there is further meaning behind that considering the “world tour and new album”.
Soon to be 28 and counting:
1998: Mansfield, MA (9/15) 2000: Virginia Beach, VA (8/3), Saratoga Springs, NY (8/27), Mansfield, MA (8/29 and 8/30) 2003: Albany, NY (4/29), Mansfield, MA (7/2 and 7/3), New York, NY (7/8 and 7/9) 2006: Hartford, CT (5/23), Boston, MA (5/24 and 5/25) 2009: Chicago, IL (8/23 and 8/24) 2010: Boston, MA (5/17) 2011: East Troy, WI (9/3 and 9/4) 2013: Worcester, MA (10/15 and 10/16), Hartford, CT (10/25) 2016: Boston, MA (8/5 and 8/7) 2018: Boston, MA (9/2 and 9/4) 2022: Camden, NJ (9/14) 2024: Boston, MA (9/15 and 9/17)
I’d betting on a Pearl Jam appearance at Ohana. Pearl Jam’s Instagram is advertising it, which it would anyways for Eddie but I’m pretty sure there is further meaning behind that considering the “world tour and new album”.
I’d be surprised if PJ played Ohana this year since based on the rumored dates, it sounds like PJ is already playing about 40 shows this year, including a number of west coast dates. I’m predicting Ed solo, Neil Young, and RHCP as the headliners (which would also be great).
I’d betting on a Pearl Jam appearance at Ohana. Pearl Jam’s Instagram is advertising it, which it would anyways for Eddie but I’m pretty sure there is further meaning behind that considering the “world tour and new album”.
I’d be surprised if PJ played Ohana this year since based on the rumored dates, it sounds like PJ is already playing about 40 shows this year, including a number of west coast dates. I’m predicting Ed solo, Neil Young, and RHCP as the headliners (which would also be great).
Eh I’m thinking it’s definitely possible. Also to raise you one they posted a video from global citizen 2015. I think that is in NY and typically in September? Someone correct me if I’m wrong. Could be after Fenway depending on timing. Anyone with real info please prove me wrong hahahah
Soon to be 28 and counting:
1998: Mansfield, MA (9/15) 2000: Virginia Beach, VA (8/3), Saratoga Springs, NY (8/27), Mansfield, MA (8/29 and 8/30) 2003: Albany, NY (4/29), Mansfield, MA (7/2 and 7/3), New York, NY (7/8 and 7/9) 2006: Hartford, CT (5/23), Boston, MA (5/24 and 5/25) 2009: Chicago, IL (8/23 and 8/24) 2010: Boston, MA (5/17) 2011: East Troy, WI (9/3 and 9/4) 2013: Worcester, MA (10/15 and 10/16), Hartford, CT (10/25) 2016: Boston, MA (8/5 and 8/7) 2018: Boston, MA (9/2 and 9/4) 2022: Camden, NJ (9/14) 2024: Boston, MA (9/15 and 9/17)
I’d betting on a Pearl Jam appearance at Ohana. Pearl Jam’s Instagram is advertising it, which it would anyways for Eddie but I’m pretty sure there is further meaning behind that considering the “world tour and new album”.
I’d be surprised if PJ played Ohana this year since based on the rumored dates, it sounds like PJ is already playing about 40 shows this year, including a number of west coast dates. I’m predicting Ed solo, Neil Young, and RHCP as the headliners (which would also be great).
Eh I’m thinking it’s definitely possible. Also to raise you one they posted a video from global citizen 2015. I think that is in NY and typically in September? Someone correct me if I’m wrong. Could be after Fenway depending on timing. Anyone with real info please prove me wrong hahahah
Oh no I really hope they’re not playing global citizen again. That’s my least favorite festival I’ve ever been to. Only an hour set, no alcohol, and very little food. I live close, but I might just have to pass.
Maybe sept 21st is global citizens. Then they go back to Seattle for one of the split Seattle dates then hit Ohana? Then take October off.
Seems like a lot but the Ohana story on insta and the global citizens video make it suspect.
Facemeltor? Dimi?
Soon to be 28 and counting:
1998: Mansfield, MA (9/15) 2000: Virginia Beach, VA (8/3), Saratoga Springs, NY (8/27), Mansfield, MA (8/29 and 8/30) 2003: Albany, NY (4/29), Mansfield, MA (7/2 and 7/3), New York, NY (7/8 and 7/9) 2006: Hartford, CT (5/23), Boston, MA (5/24 and 5/25) 2009: Chicago, IL (8/23 and 8/24) 2010: Boston, MA (5/17) 2011: East Troy, WI (9/3 and 9/4) 2013: Worcester, MA (10/15 and 10/16), Hartford, CT (10/25) 2016: Boston, MA (8/5 and 8/7) 2018: Boston, MA (9/2 and 9/4) 2022: Camden, NJ (9/14) 2024: Boston, MA (9/15 and 9/17)
I’d betting on a Pearl Jam appearance at Ohana. Pearl Jam’s Instagram is advertising it, which it would anyways for Eddie but I’m pretty sure there is further meaning behind that considering the “world tour and new album”.
I’d be surprised if PJ played Ohana this year since based on the rumored dates, it sounds like PJ is already playing about 40 shows this year, including a number of west coast dates. I’m predicting Ed solo, Neil Young, and RHCP as the headliners (which would also be great).
As much as I would love all members of PJ & RHCP on stage all at once (if Jack showed up, people would pass out), there's still one guy who keeps that from happening: John F.
Josh has made peace with Chad, Flea & even Anthony, but the bad feelings between John & Josh still persist.
But... wouldn't it be sweet if Ohana was where they all buried the hatchet?🤔
PJ - 09/23/98: West Palm Beach II, 08/12/00: Tampa, 04/12/03: Orlando, 04/13/03: Tampa, 06/12/08: Tampa, 06/27/08: Hartford, 09/22/09: Seattle II, 04/11/16: Tampa, 05/01 &05/02/16: MSG I & II, 09/18/21: Sea Hear Now, 10/01& 10/02/21: Ohana Encore I & II, 05/06 & 05/07/22: Los Angeles I & II, 09/11/22: MSG, 09/16/22: Nashville, 09/02/23: St. Paul II, 09/07/23: Chicago II, 09/18& 09/19/23: Austin I & II, 05/16& 05/18/24: Las Vegas I & II, 08/29& 08/31/24: Wrigley Field I & II, 09/03& 09/04/24: MSG I & II
EV - 08/04 & 08/05/08: (Eddie solo, w/Liam Finn) NYC I & II, 11/27 & 11/28/12: (Eddie solo, w/Glen Hansard) Orlando I & II, 02/09 & 02/10/22: (Eddie & the Earthlings) Chicago I & II, 09/30/23: (Eddie & the Earthlings) Ohana Festival
Song Wishlist: Oceans, Brother, Alone, Let Me Sleep, full W.M.A., Hold On, Bugs/all of Vitalogy, Gremmie Out Of Control, Mankind, Around The Bend (full band), The Long Road, Don't Gimme No Lip, Pilate, Push Me Pull Me, All Those Yesterdays, Rival, Parting Ways, Ghost, Bu$hleaguer, WWS, Parachutes, Army Reserve, low octave Driftin', Strangest Tribe, Other Side, Undone, Fatal, Hitchhiker, Education, Black Red Yellow, Of the Earth, Love Reign O'er Me, Gonna See My Friend, Amongst the Waves, Santa Cruz, Infallible, Yellow Moon, Alright, Comes Then Goes, Got to Give, and the Mamasan Trilogy.
Wanted Posters: WPB '98, Tampa/WPB '00, Tampa '03, EV Batmobile '08 ISO: any picks, or setlists from any of my shows!
I’d betting on a Pearl Jam appearance at Ohana. Pearl Jam’s Instagram is advertising it, which it would anyways for Eddie but I’m pretty sure there is further meaning behind that considering the “world tour and new album”.
I’d be surprised if PJ played Ohana this year since based on the rumored dates, it sounds like PJ is already playing about 40 shows this year, including a number of west coast dates. I’m predicting Ed solo, Neil Young, and RHCP as the headliners (which would also be great).
As much as I would love all members of PJ & RHCP on stage all at once (if Jack showed up, people would pass out), there's still one guy who keeps that from happening: John F.
Josh has made peace with Chad, Flea & even Anthony, but the bad feelings between John & Josh still persist.
But... wouldn't it be sweet if Ohana was where they all buried the hatchet?🤔
Didn’t Jack handle keyboard when they covered the Cars at Ohana ‘19? He was a Tiki stage act that weekend with Josh and Eddie helping on Crazy Diamond.
Doesn't PJ usually post about Ohana, even if they're not playing?
Yes and I admitted that. Just think it interesting this time around and I think it would make sense to play it the year an album comes out. I would think they would skip it next year though.
Anyways I really know nothing, just think both that and the global citizen thing right before tour announcement to be interesting.
Soon to be 28 and counting:
1998: Mansfield, MA (9/15) 2000: Virginia Beach, VA (8/3), Saratoga Springs, NY (8/27), Mansfield, MA (8/29 and 8/30) 2003: Albany, NY (4/29), Mansfield, MA (7/2 and 7/3), New York, NY (7/8 and 7/9) 2006: Hartford, CT (5/23), Boston, MA (5/24 and 5/25) 2009: Chicago, IL (8/23 and 8/24) 2010: Boston, MA (5/17) 2011: East Troy, WI (9/3 and 9/4) 2013: Worcester, MA (10/15 and 10/16), Hartford, CT (10/25) 2016: Boston, MA (8/5 and 8/7) 2018: Boston, MA (9/2 and 9/4) 2022: Camden, NJ (9/14) 2024: Boston, MA (9/15 and 9/17)
A guy called Matt Ortloff just told me on Facebook that tour announcement is February 13th I book marked the page just to see if he's full of shit or not.
A guy called Matt Ortloff just told me on Facebook that tour announcement is February 13th I book marked the page just to see if he's full of shit or not.
That date has been mentioned in this thread a few times as well. Hopefully there's some validity to it.
"I got memories, I got shit"
ISO 2016 Greenville shirt. Size medium. PM me if you have one for sale/trade.
A guy called Matt Ortloff just told me on Facebook that tour announcement is February 13th I book marked the page just to see if he's full of shit or not.
That date has been mentioned in this thread a few times as well. Hopefully there's some validity to it.
Cool thanks for the update. I've been away from the thread since Christmas
I’d betting on a Pearl Jam appearance at Ohana. Pearl Jam’s Instagram is advertising it, which it would anyways for Eddie but I’m pretty sure there is further meaning behind that considering the “world tour and new album”.
I’d be surprised if PJ played Ohana this year since based on the rumored dates, it sounds like PJ is already playing about 40 shows this year, including a number of west coast dates. I’m predicting Ed solo, Neil Young, and RHCP as the headliners (which would also be great).
As much as I would love all members of PJ & RHCP on stage all at once (if Jack showed up, people would pass out), there's still one guy who keeps that from happening: John F.
Josh has made peace with Chad, Flea & even Anthony, but the bad feelings between John & Josh still persist.
But... wouldn't it be sweet if Ohana was where they all buried the hatchet?🤔
Didn’t Jack handle keyboard when they covered the Cars at Ohana ‘19? He was a Tiki stage act that weekend with Josh and Eddie helping on Crazy Diamond.
Yes! But Josh was still in RHCP that Sept. They fired him about 3 months later😮💨
PJ - 09/23/98: West Palm Beach II, 08/12/00: Tampa, 04/12/03: Orlando, 04/13/03: Tampa, 06/12/08: Tampa, 06/27/08: Hartford, 09/22/09: Seattle II, 04/11/16: Tampa, 05/01 &05/02/16: MSG I & II, 09/18/21: Sea Hear Now, 10/01& 10/02/21: Ohana Encore I & II, 05/06 & 05/07/22: Los Angeles I & II, 09/11/22: MSG, 09/16/22: Nashville, 09/02/23: St. Paul II, 09/07/23: Chicago II, 09/18& 09/19/23: Austin I & II, 05/16& 05/18/24: Las Vegas I & II, 08/29& 08/31/24: Wrigley Field I & II, 09/03& 09/04/24: MSG I & II
EV - 08/04 & 08/05/08: (Eddie solo, w/Liam Finn) NYC I & II, 11/27 & 11/28/12: (Eddie solo, w/Glen Hansard) Orlando I & II, 02/09 & 02/10/22: (Eddie & the Earthlings) Chicago I & II, 09/30/23: (Eddie & the Earthlings) Ohana Festival
Song Wishlist: Oceans, Brother, Alone, Let Me Sleep, full W.M.A., Hold On, Bugs/all of Vitalogy, Gremmie Out Of Control, Mankind, Around The Bend (full band), The Long Road, Don't Gimme No Lip, Pilate, Push Me Pull Me, All Those Yesterdays, Rival, Parting Ways, Ghost, Bu$hleaguer, WWS, Parachutes, Army Reserve, low octave Driftin', Strangest Tribe, Other Side, Undone, Fatal, Hitchhiker, Education, Black Red Yellow, Of the Earth, Love Reign O'er Me, Gonna See My Friend, Amongst the Waves, Santa Cruz, Infallible, Yellow Moon, Alright, Comes Then Goes, Got to Give, and the Mamasan Trilogy.
Wanted Posters: WPB '98, Tampa/WPB '00, Tampa '03, EV Batmobile '08 ISO: any picks, or setlists from any of my shows!
The 2/13 date has been circulating for a while and was indirectly confirmed by Mr Meltor (“remember when no one believed last years dates would drop 4/20?” or very similar phrasing to that effect.) If the rumors of album in April & tour starting in May are true it couldn’t be too much later than that anyway.
I’d betting on a Pearl Jam appearance at Ohana. Pearl Jam’s Instagram is advertising it, which it would anyways for Eddie but I’m pretty sure there is further meaning behind that considering the “world tour and new album”.
I’d be surprised if PJ played Ohana this year since based on the rumored dates, it sounds like PJ is already playing about 40 shows this year, including a number of west coast dates. I’m predicting Ed solo, Neil Young, and RHCP as the headliners (which would also be great).
As much as I would love all members of PJ & RHCP on stage all at once (if Jack showed up, people would pass out), there's still one guy who keeps that from happening: John F.
Josh has made peace with Chad, Flea & even Anthony, but the bad feelings between John & Josh still persist.
But... wouldn't it be sweet if Ohana was where they all buried the hatchet?🤔
Didn’t Jack handle keyboard when they covered the Cars at Ohana ‘19? He was a Tiki stage act that weekend with Josh and Eddie helping on Crazy Diamond.
Yes! But Josh was still in RHCP that Sept. They fired him about 3 months later😮💨
I remember that part. The guy behind me in the crowd must have known someone because he was wondering out loud why the switch back to John hadn’t already happened.
I’ve seen every msg show. They all sucked. You definitely should not waste your time trying to get tickets. Fresno is the new msg.
Per capita, Fresno is pretty high up for sheer novelty.
Agree...one of those shows that I made a last minute decision to drive three hours with a friend to see...in retrospect I am really pleased that we did that
Mansfield 6/30/08 - Wrigley Field 7/14/13 - Worcester I 10/15/13 - Global Citizen 9/26/15 - MSG II 5/2/16 - Fenway I 8/5/16 - Fenway II 8/7/16 - Fenway II 9/4/18 - LA I 5/6/22 - LA II 5/7/22 - MSG 9/11/22 - Nashville 9/16/22 - St. Paul I and II 8/31/23-9/2/23
1998: Mansfield, MA (9/15) 2000: Virginia Beach, VA (8/3), Saratoga Springs, NY (8/27), Mansfield, MA (8/29 and 8/30) 2003: Albany, NY (4/29), Mansfield, MA (7/2 and 7/3), New York, NY (7/8 and 7/9) 2006: Hartford, CT (5/23), Boston, MA (5/24 and 5/25) 2009: Chicago, IL (8/23 and 8/24) 2010: Boston, MA (5/17) 2011: East Troy, WI (9/3 and 9/4) 2013: Worcester, MA (10/15 and 10/16), Hartford, CT (10/25) 2016: Boston, MA (8/5 and 8/7) 2018: Boston, MA (9/2 and 9/4) 2022: Camden, NJ (9/14) 2024: Boston, MA (9/15 and 9/17)
A guy called Matt Ortloff just told me on Facebook that tour announcement is February 13th I book marked the page just to see if he's full of shit or not.
That was the guy who alluded to the Seattle dates changing which Facemeltor then confirmed
Comments
I always refer to it as being by "Guns N' Roses," with the quote marks-- or "Axl Rose's Guns N' Roses Tribute Band." But it's good.
1993-9-4 Vancouver
1996-9-16 Seattle
1998-7-19 Vancouver, 7-21 Seattle, Memorial Stadium
2000-11-6 Seattle
2001-10-22 Seattle
2002 -12-09 Seattle
2009-8-17 Manchester, 9-25 Vancouver
2011-6-16 Seattle (EV), 9-3/4 PJ20, 9-25 Vancouver
2012-6-27 Amsterdam (#2!)
2013-11-29 Portland, 12-4 Vancouver, 12-6 Seattle
2014-AUS - 1-26 Sydney, 1-31 Adelaide, 2-11/12 EV Sydney State Theatre, 2-13 EV Opera House
2014 - USA - Memphis, Detroit, MOLINE, St. Paul, MILWAUKEE, Denver, 25/26 Bridge School
2016 - Lexington, Philly x 2, MSG x 2, Quebec City, Ottawa, Toronto x 2, Pemberton, Fenway x 2, Wrigley x 2
2018 - Seattle x 2, Missoula, Fenway x 2
1998: Mansfield, MA (9/15)
2000: Virginia Beach, VA (8/3), Saratoga Springs, NY (8/27), Mansfield, MA (8/29 and 8/30)
2003: Albany, NY (4/29), Mansfield, MA (7/2 and 7/3), New York, NY (7/8 and 7/9)
2006: Hartford, CT (5/23), Boston, MA (5/24 and 5/25)
2009: Chicago, IL (8/23 and 8/24)
2010: Boston, MA (5/17)
2011: East Troy, WI (9/3 and 9/4)
2013: Worcester, MA (10/15 and 10/16), Hartford, CT (10/25)
2016: Boston, MA (8/5 and 8/7)
2018: Boston, MA (9/2 and 9/4)
2022: Camden, NJ (9/14)
2024: Boston, MA (9/15 and 9/17)
1998: Mansfield, MA (9/15)
2000: Virginia Beach, VA (8/3), Saratoga Springs, NY (8/27), Mansfield, MA (8/29 and 8/30)
2003: Albany, NY (4/29), Mansfield, MA (7/2 and 7/3), New York, NY (7/8 and 7/9)
2006: Hartford, CT (5/23), Boston, MA (5/24 and 5/25)
2009: Chicago, IL (8/23 and 8/24)
2010: Boston, MA (5/17)
2011: East Troy, WI (9/3 and 9/4)
2013: Worcester, MA (10/15 and 10/16), Hartford, CT (10/25)
2016: Boston, MA (8/5 and 8/7)
2018: Boston, MA (9/2 and 9/4)
2022: Camden, NJ (9/14)
2024: Boston, MA (9/15 and 9/17)
1998: Mansfield, MA (9/15)
2000: Virginia Beach, VA (8/3), Saratoga Springs, NY (8/27), Mansfield, MA (8/29 and 8/30)
2003: Albany, NY (4/29), Mansfield, MA (7/2 and 7/3), New York, NY (7/8 and 7/9)
2006: Hartford, CT (5/23), Boston, MA (5/24 and 5/25)
2009: Chicago, IL (8/23 and 8/24)
2010: Boston, MA (5/17)
2011: East Troy, WI (9/3 and 9/4)
2013: Worcester, MA (10/15 and 10/16), Hartford, CT (10/25)
2016: Boston, MA (8/5 and 8/7)
2018: Boston, MA (9/2 and 9/4)
2022: Camden, NJ (9/14)
2024: Boston, MA (9/15 and 9/17)
Ed Solo: 17-Louisville
"...I changed by not changing at all..."
Josh has made peace with Chad, Flea & even Anthony, but the bad feelings between John & Josh still persist.
But... wouldn't it be sweet if Ohana was where they all buried the hatchet?🤔
Song Wishlist: Oceans, Brother, Alone, Let Me Sleep, full W.M.A., Hold On, Bugs/all of Vitalogy, Gremmie Out Of Control, Mankind, Around The Bend (full band), The Long Road, Don't Gimme No Lip, Pilate, Push Me Pull Me, All Those Yesterdays, Rival, Parting Ways, Ghost, Bu$hleaguer, WWS, Parachutes, Army Reserve, low octave Driftin', Strangest Tribe, Other Side, Undone, Fatal, Hitchhiker, Education, Black Red Yellow, Of the Earth, Love Reign O'er Me, Gonna See My Friend, Amongst the Waves, Santa Cruz, Infallible, Yellow Moon, Alright, Comes Then Goes, Got to Give, and the Mamasan Trilogy.
1998: Mansfield, MA (9/15)
2000: Virginia Beach, VA (8/3), Saratoga Springs, NY (8/27), Mansfield, MA (8/29 and 8/30)
2003: Albany, NY (4/29), Mansfield, MA (7/2 and 7/3), New York, NY (7/8 and 7/9)
2006: Hartford, CT (5/23), Boston, MA (5/24 and 5/25)
2009: Chicago, IL (8/23 and 8/24)
2010: Boston, MA (5/17)
2011: East Troy, WI (9/3 and 9/4)
2013: Worcester, MA (10/15 and 10/16), Hartford, CT (10/25)
2016: Boston, MA (8/5 and 8/7)
2018: Boston, MA (9/2 and 9/4)
2022: Camden, NJ (9/14)
2024: Boston, MA (9/15 and 9/17)
I book marked the page just to see if he's full of shit or not.
ISO 2016 Greenville shirt. Size medium. PM me if you have one for sale/trade.
I've been away from the thread since Christmas
Song Wishlist: Oceans, Brother, Alone, Let Me Sleep, full W.M.A., Hold On, Bugs/all of Vitalogy, Gremmie Out Of Control, Mankind, Around The Bend (full band), The Long Road, Don't Gimme No Lip, Pilate, Push Me Pull Me, All Those Yesterdays, Rival, Parting Ways, Ghost, Bu$hleaguer, WWS, Parachutes, Army Reserve, low octave Driftin', Strangest Tribe, Other Side, Undone, Fatal, Hitchhiker, Education, Black Red Yellow, Of the Earth, Love Reign O'er Me, Gonna See My Friend, Amongst the Waves, Santa Cruz, Infallible, Yellow Moon, Alright, Comes Then Goes, Got to Give, and the Mamasan Trilogy.
If the rumors of album in April & tour starting in May are true it couldn’t be too much later than that anyway.
1998: Mansfield, MA (9/15)
2000: Virginia Beach, VA (8/3), Saratoga Springs, NY (8/27), Mansfield, MA (8/29 and 8/30)
2003: Albany, NY (4/29), Mansfield, MA (7/2 and 7/3), New York, NY (7/8 and 7/9)
2006: Hartford, CT (5/23), Boston, MA (5/24 and 5/25)
2009: Chicago, IL (8/23 and 8/24)
2010: Boston, MA (5/17)
2011: East Troy, WI (9/3 and 9/4)
2013: Worcester, MA (10/15 and 10/16), Hartford, CT (10/25)
2016: Boston, MA (8/5 and 8/7)
2018: Boston, MA (9/2 and 9/4)
2022: Camden, NJ (9/14)
2024: Boston, MA (9/15 and 9/17)