Ukraine

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  • Merkin Baller
    Merkin Baller Posts: 12,773
    myoung321 said:
    mrussel1 said:
    myoung321 said:
    Merkin Baller said:
    myoung321 said:
    Merkin Baller said:
    myoung321 said:
    Merkin Baller said:

    If you told me this many American's would show so much tacit support for Putin & Russia 20 years ago, I never would have believed it. 

    We are living in some strange times. 
    You know you can be against the war and still not be a supporter of Putin... mixing the two together is like saying if you were against the wars in Iraq and Afghanistan you were Pro-Terrorist.. 
    & there's no shortage of American conservatives showing support / making excuses for / giving cover to Putin. 
    I agree... but most Conservatives were always Pro-War... not War Protestors.. 

    and I must say again... simply saying we should have peace talks and acknowledging this didn't start by Putin waking up one day out of the blue and attacking Ukraine does not make you a supporter or one giving cover...
    No, it didn't happen out of the blue. They built up their forces on the border over time and then invaded.

    Saying this war didn't start with the invasion is 100% giving cover to Russia for invading Ukraine. 
    No it's not giving cover to them.....it's stating facts: They've been fighting in the Eastern provinces since the 2014. Those areas did not go along with the 2014 takeover of the government and fighting has been going on there ever since.. It did not happen out of the blue after the Russian built forces up ... There was a treaty (The Minsk Accords) that both Ukraine and the separatists agreed upon. Ukraine broke it by increasing hostilities and aggression towards those areas.

    What Are the Minsk Accords?


    Thinking Putin just woke ups one day and said go, after building forces for no reason what so ever is propaganda sold to the those that don't bother doing a little research... 


     
    So a violation of the Minsk accords gives Russia the right for a full scale invasion of Ukraine, destroying cities and civilians.  

    And Euromaiden was the absolute right reaction to the criminal Yanukoyvch's duplicitous turn to the East when he promised the Ukrainian people that he was aligning in the west. 
    Did I say it gave them the right? No, I said it didn't start with the invasion,,, This has been going on since 2014.. regardless of which is side is right or wrong,,, They both need to talk peace... period.. 
    Why does the Ukraine need to talk peace with an invading army?

    Why don't they have the right to protect their land? 
  • mrussel1
    mrussel1 Posts: 30,879
    myoung321 said:
    mrussel1 said:
    myoung321 said:
    Merkin Baller said:
    myoung321 said:
    Merkin Baller said:
    myoung321 said:
    Merkin Baller said:

    If you told me this many American's would show so much tacit support for Putin & Russia 20 years ago, I never would have believed it. 

    We are living in some strange times. 
    You know you can be against the war and still not be a supporter of Putin... mixing the two together is like saying if you were against the wars in Iraq and Afghanistan you were Pro-Terrorist.. 
    & there's no shortage of American conservatives showing support / making excuses for / giving cover to Putin. 
    I agree... but most Conservatives were always Pro-War... not War Protestors.. 

    and I must say again... simply saying we should have peace talks and acknowledging this didn't start by Putin waking up one day out of the blue and attacking Ukraine does not make you a supporter or one giving cover...
    No, it didn't happen out of the blue. They built up their forces on the border over time and then invaded.

    Saying this war didn't start with the invasion is 100% giving cover to Russia for invading Ukraine. 
    No it's not giving cover to them.....it's stating facts: They've been fighting in the Eastern provinces since the 2014. Those areas did not go along with the 2014 takeover of the government and fighting has been going on there ever since.. It did not happen out of the blue after the Russian built forces up ... There was a treaty (The Minsk Accords) that both Ukraine and the separatists agreed upon. Ukraine broke it by increasing hostilities and aggression towards those areas.

    What Are the Minsk Accords?


    Thinking Putin just woke ups one day and said go, after building forces for no reason what so ever is propaganda sold to the those that don't bother doing a little research... 


     
    So a violation of the Minsk accords gives Russia the right for a full scale invasion of Ukraine, destroying cities and civilians.  

    And Euromaiden was the absolute right reaction to the criminal Yanukoyvch's duplicitous turn to the East when he promised the Ukrainian people that he was aligning in the west. 
    Did I say it gave them the right? No, I said it didn't start with the invasion,,, This has been going on since 2014.. regardless of which is side is right or wrong,,, They both need to talk peace... period.. 
    The onus for peace does not reside with the county defending their lives and freedoms.  It's that simple. 
  • myoung321
    myoung321 Posts: 2,855
    mrussel1 said:
    myoung321 said:
    mrussel1 said:
    myoung321 said:
    mrussel1 said:
    myoung321 said:
    PJ_Soul said:
    Poland is sending the Ukraine some fighter jets. It's about time somebody did! I hope more countries follow their lead.
    I'd preferred we send people for peace talks... more weapons is only helping the weapons manufacturers, but not helping end the war... People need to come to terms, Ukraine cannot win this war...but we will flood them with weapons as long as they're useful for making money for the defense industry. When they aren't useful any longer we will turn our backs and walk away....

      I know I will get hate for that, but the truth is the truth.. The sooner peace talks begin the better for everyone involved.. 
    Peace talks are great. Most think Ukraine is resigned to losing Crimea and far eastern oblasts that they lost in 2014. But that wasn't enough for Putin.  War are you suggesting each side should give?
    Exactly....Yes both sides will give in any peace talks... First Ukraine will never get Crimea or the Eastern provinces back. Hell their government has been at war with the eastern provinces since 2014.. Those areas really haven't been part of Ukraine since the overthrow (Coup) of the government. Russia will give in the peace talks by stopping aggressive maneuvers further into Ukraine and will probably pull back to an agreed line. 
    Ukraine will also have to not become part of NATO... if none of this can be agreed upon then over time Russia will take all of Ukraine and the only thing we can do is start WW3 to stop them. i'm guessing most clear thinking people would not want that... so Ukraine would be sacrificed. 

    IMHO this peace would probably have already been agreed upon without the meddling and weapons from us.. 
      But Ukraine will not and should (nor should we agree to) promise to never join NATO.  That is a total infringement on another country's sovereignty.  
     

     
    So then you'd be okay with Mexico and Canada and Central American countries joining a military alliance with China and Russia?

    Ask the Cubans how the US would react....

    Your comment of  ("nor should we agree to")...first who is this "WE" are you Ukrainian?  If you believe this then you think that's worth starting WW3, so Ukraine can be in NATO? if so, WOW.... You do realize that If WW3 started Ukraine will be the first thing wiped off the map...  
    You are drawing moral equivalency between NATO and Russian interests.  They are not equal in my book.  NATO countries are democratic, generally egalitarian and respect human rights.  Russia is a cesspool of corruption and everywhere that Putin touches, misery and poverty follows.  Do a little research into the state of the Donbas between 2014 and invasion.  

    If you were asking who I think was wrong in the Franco-British wars of the early 19th centrury, then yeah we could have a spirited debate of moral equivalency.  But anything that tries to justify Russian aggression is fucking despicable.  
    Not sure where you get this... Hell in WW2 the Western Ukrainians fought with Nazi Germany and the Russian speaking Eastern Provinces fought with the Red Army... This is historical fact.. 

    Who the hell has justified Russian aggression? See if anyone doesn't follow the script they are instantly labeled Putin supporters... and if they are in the public eye they are put on a List by right wing fanatics in Ukraine... are you going to deny that? 
    "The heart and mind are the true lens of the camera." - Yusuf Karsh
     


  • Halifax2TheMax
    Halifax2TheMax Posts: 42,160
    myoung321 said:
    mrussel1 said:
    myoung321 said:
    Merkin Baller said:
    myoung321 said:
    Merkin Baller said:
    myoung321 said:
    Merkin Baller said:

    If you told me this many American's would show so much tacit support for Putin & Russia 20 years ago, I never would have believed it. 

    We are living in some strange times. 
    You know you can be against the war and still not be a supporter of Putin... mixing the two together is like saying if you were against the wars in Iraq and Afghanistan you were Pro-Terrorist.. 
    & there's no shortage of American conservatives showing support / making excuses for / giving cover to Putin. 
    I agree... but most Conservatives were always Pro-War... not War Protestors.. 

    and I must say again... simply saying we should have peace talks and acknowledging this didn't start by Putin waking up one day out of the blue and attacking Ukraine does not make you a supporter or one giving cover...
    No, it didn't happen out of the blue. They built up their forces on the border over time and then invaded.

    Saying this war didn't start with the invasion is 100% giving cover to Russia for invading Ukraine. 
    No it's not giving cover to them.....it's stating facts: They've been fighting in the Eastern provinces since the 2014. Those areas did not go along with the 2014 takeover of the government and fighting has been going on there ever since.. It did not happen out of the blue after the Russian built forces up ... There was a treaty (The Minsk Accords) that both Ukraine and the separatists agreed upon. Ukraine broke it by increasing hostilities and aggression towards those areas.

    What Are the Minsk Accords?


    Thinking Putin just woke ups one day and said go, after building forces for no reason what so ever is propaganda sold to the those that don't bother doing a little research... 


     
    So a violation of the Minsk accords gives Russia the right for a full scale invasion of Ukraine, destroying cities and civilians.  

    And Euromaiden was the absolute right reaction to the criminal Yanukoyvch's duplicitous turn to the East when he promised the Ukrainian people that he was aligning in the west. 
    Did I say it gave them the right? No, I said it didn't start with the invasion,,, This has been going on since 2014.. regardless of which is side is right or wrong,,, They both need to talk peace... period.. 
    Who should broker the "peace" and what should the settlement or "peace" consist of?
    09/15/1998 & 09/16/1998, Mansfield, MA; 08/29/00 08/30/00, Mansfield, MA; 07/02/03, 07/03/03, Mansfield, MA; 09/28/04, 09/29/04, Boston, MA; 09/22/05, Halifax, NS; 05/24/06, 05/25/06, Boston, MA; 07/22/06, 07/23/06, Gorge, WA; 06/27/2008, Hartford; 06/28/08, 06/30/08, Mansfield; 08/18/2009, O2, London, UK; 10/30/09, 10/31/09, Philadelphia, PA; 05/15/10, Hartford, CT; 05/17/10, Boston, MA; 05/20/10, 05/21/10, NY, NY; 06/22/10, Dublin, IRE; 06/23/10, Northern Ireland; 09/03/11, 09/04/11, Alpine Valley, WI; 09/11/11, 09/12/11, Toronto, Ont; 09/14/11, Ottawa, Ont; 09/15/11, Hamilton, Ont; 07/02/2012, Prague, Czech Republic; 07/04/2012 & 07/05/2012, Berlin, Germany; 07/07/2012, Stockholm, Sweden; 09/30/2012, Missoula, MT; 07/16/2013, London, Ont; 07/19/2013, Chicago, IL; 10/15/2013 & 10/16/2013, Worcester, MA; 10/21/2013 & 10/22/2013, Philadelphia, PA; 10/25/2013, Hartford, CT; 11/29/2013, Portland, OR; 11/30/2013, Spokane, WA; 12/04/2013, Vancouver, BC; 12/06/2013, Seattle, WA; 10/03/2014, St. Louis. MO; 10/22/2014, Denver, CO; 10/26/2015, New York, NY; 04/23/2016, New Orleans, LA; 04/28/2016 & 04/29/2016, Philadelphia, PA; 05/01/2016 & 05/02/2016, New York, NY; 05/08/2016, Ottawa, Ont.; 05/10/2016 & 05/12/2016, Toronto, Ont.; 08/05/2016 & 08/07/2016, Boston, MA; 08/20/2016 & 08/22/2016, Chicago, IL; 07/01/2018, Prague, Czech Republic; 07/03/2018, Krakow, Poland; 07/05/2018, Berlin, Germany; 09/02/2018 & 09/04/2018, Boston, MA; 09/08/2022, Toronto, Ont; 09/11/2022, New York, NY; 09/14/2022, Camden, NJ; 09/02/2023, St. Paul, MN; 05/04/2024 & 05/06/2024, Vancouver, BC; 05/10/2024, Portland, OR;

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  • myoung321
    myoung321 Posts: 2,855
     Halifax2TheMax said:
    myoung321 said:
    mrussel1 said:
    myoung321 said:
    Merkin Baller said:
    myoung321 said:
    Merkin Baller said:
    myoung321 said:
    Merkin Baller said:

    If you told me this many American's would show so much tacit support for Putin & Russia 20 years ago, I never would have believed it. 

    We are living in some strange times. 
    You know you can be against the war and still not be a supporter of Putin... mixing the two together is like saying if you were against the wars in Iraq and Afghanistan you were Pro-Terrorist.. 
    & there's no shortage of American conservatives showing support / making excuses for / giving cover to Putin. 
    I agree... but most Conservatives were always Pro-War... not War Protestors.. 

    and I must say again... simply saying we should have peace talks and acknowledging this didn't start by Putin waking up one day out of the blue and attacking Ukraine does not make you a supporter or one giving cover...
    No, it didn't happen out of the blue. They built up their forces on the border over time and then invaded.

    Saying this war didn't start with the invasion is 100% giving cover to Russia for invading Ukraine. 
    No it's not giving cover to them.....it's stating facts: They've been fighting in the Eastern provinces since the 2014. Those areas did not go along with the 2014 takeover of the government and fighting has been going on there ever since.. It did not happen out of the blue after the Russian built forces up ... There was a treaty (The Minsk Accords) that both Ukraine and the separatists agreed upon. Ukraine broke it by increasing hostilities and aggression towards those areas.

    What Are the Minsk Accords?


    Thinking Putin just woke ups one day and said go, after building forces for no reason what so ever is propaganda sold to the those that don't bother doing a little research... 


     
    So a violation of the Minsk accords gives Russia the right for a full scale invasion of Ukraine, destroying cities and civilians.  

    And Euromaiden was the absolute right reaction to the criminal Yanukoyvch's duplicitous turn to the East when he promised the Ukrainian people that he was aligning in the west. 
    Did I say it gave them the right? No, I said it didn't start with the invasion,,, This has been going on since 2014.. regardless of which is side is right or wrong,,, They both need to talk peace... period.. 
    Who should broker the "peace" and what should the settlement or "peace" consist of?
    Answered that earlier... 
    "The heart and mind are the true lens of the camera." - Yusuf Karsh
     


  • myoung321
    myoung321 Posts: 2,855
      yeah yeah yeah I'm a Putin supporter and okay with aggression because I have a different opinion. :s ..... thats fine..

    Guess we'll have to agree to disagree....Have a Nice Day! 
    "The heart and mind are the true lens of the camera." - Yusuf Karsh
     


  • myoung321
    myoung321 Posts: 2,855
    mrussel1 said:
    myoung321 said:
    mrussel1 said:
    myoung321 said:
    Merkin Baller said:
    myoung321 said:
    Merkin Baller said:
    myoung321 said:
    Merkin Baller said:

    If you told me this many American's would show so much tacit support for Putin & Russia 20 years ago, I never would have believed it. 

    We are living in some strange times. 
    You know you can be against the war and still not be a supporter of Putin... mixing the two together is like saying if you were against the wars in Iraq and Afghanistan you were Pro-Terrorist.. 
    & there's no shortage of American conservatives showing support / making excuses for / giving cover to Putin. 
    I agree... but most Conservatives were always Pro-War... not War Protestors.. 

    and I must say again... simply saying we should have peace talks and acknowledging this didn't start by Putin waking up one day out of the blue and attacking Ukraine does not make you a supporter or one giving cover...
    No, it didn't happen out of the blue. They built up their forces on the border over time and then invaded.

    Saying this war didn't start with the invasion is 100% giving cover to Russia for invading Ukraine. 
    No it's not giving cover to them.....it's stating facts: They've been fighting in the Eastern provinces since the 2014. Those areas did not go along with the 2014 takeover of the government and fighting has been going on there ever since.. It did not happen out of the blue after the Russian built forces up ... There was a treaty (The Minsk Accords) that both Ukraine and the separatists agreed upon. Ukraine broke it by increasing hostilities and aggression towards those areas.

    What Are the Minsk Accords?


    Thinking Putin just woke ups one day and said go, after building forces for no reason what so ever is propaganda sold to the those that don't bother doing a little research... 


     
    So a violation of the Minsk accords gives Russia the right for a full scale invasion of Ukraine, destroying cities and civilians.  

    And Euromaiden was the absolute right reaction to the criminal Yanukoyvch's duplicitous turn to the East when he promised the Ukrainian people that he was aligning in the west. 
    Did I say it gave them the right? No, I said it didn't start with the invasion,,, This has been going on since 2014.. regardless of which is side is right or wrong,,, They both need to talk peace... period.. 
    The onus for peace does not reside with the county defending their lives and freedoms.  It's that simple. 
    The onus is on both sides to have peace... 
    "The heart and mind are the true lens of the camera." - Yusuf Karsh
     


  • Merkin Baller
    Merkin Baller Posts: 12,773
    myoung321 said:
    mrussel1 said:
    myoung321 said:
    mrussel1 said:
    myoung321 said:
    Merkin Baller said:
    myoung321 said:
    Merkin Baller said:
    myoung321 said:
    Merkin Baller said:

    If you told me this many American's would show so much tacit support for Putin & Russia 20 years ago, I never would have believed it. 

    We are living in some strange times. 
    You know you can be against the war and still not be a supporter of Putin... mixing the two together is like saying if you were against the wars in Iraq and Afghanistan you were Pro-Terrorist.. 
    & there's no shortage of American conservatives showing support / making excuses for / giving cover to Putin. 
    I agree... but most Conservatives were always Pro-War... not War Protestors.. 

    and I must say again... simply saying we should have peace talks and acknowledging this didn't start by Putin waking up one day out of the blue and attacking Ukraine does not make you a supporter or one giving cover...
    No, it didn't happen out of the blue. They built up their forces on the border over time and then invaded.

    Saying this war didn't start with the invasion is 100% giving cover to Russia for invading Ukraine. 
    No it's not giving cover to them.....it's stating facts: They've been fighting in the Eastern provinces since the 2014. Those areas did not go along with the 2014 takeover of the government and fighting has been going on there ever since.. It did not happen out of the blue after the Russian built forces up ... There was a treaty (The Minsk Accords) that both Ukraine and the separatists agreed upon. Ukraine broke it by increasing hostilities and aggression towards those areas.

    What Are the Minsk Accords?


    Thinking Putin just woke ups one day and said go, after building forces for no reason what so ever is propaganda sold to the those that don't bother doing a little research... 


     
    So a violation of the Minsk accords gives Russia the right for a full scale invasion of Ukraine, destroying cities and civilians.  

    And Euromaiden was the absolute right reaction to the criminal Yanukoyvch's duplicitous turn to the East when he promised the Ukrainian people that he was aligning in the west. 
    Did I say it gave them the right? No, I said it didn't start with the invasion,,, This has been going on since 2014.. regardless of which is side is right or wrong,,, They both need to talk peace... period.. 
    The onus for peace does not reside with the county defending their lives and freedoms.  It's that simple. 
    The onus is on both sides to have peace... 
    Why should the Ukraine talk peace with an invading army?

    Why don't they have the right to protect their land? 
  • gimmesometruth27
    gimmesometruth27 St. Fuckin Louis Posts: 24,071
    KP_McMinn said:
    How do you piss off a Conservative?  Lie to them.

    How do you piss off a Liberal?  Tell them the truth. 
     
    i had to do a spit take.

    are all you conservatives so angry now that trump has lied to you over 50,000 times? which lie was the breaking point?
    "You can tell the greatness of a man by what makes him angry."  - Lincoln

    "Well, you tell him that I don't talk to suckas."
  • Halifax2TheMax
    Halifax2TheMax Posts: 42,160
    myoung321 said:
     Halifax2TheMax said:
    myoung321 said:
    mrussel1 said:
    myoung321 said:
    Merkin Baller said:
    myoung321 said:
    Merkin Baller said:
    myoung321 said:
    Merkin Baller said:

    If you told me this many American's would show so much tacit support for Putin & Russia 20 years ago, I never would have believed it. 

    We are living in some strange times. 
    You know you can be against the war and still not be a supporter of Putin... mixing the two together is like saying if you were against the wars in Iraq and Afghanistan you were Pro-Terrorist.. 
    & there's no shortage of American conservatives showing support / making excuses for / giving cover to Putin. 
    I agree... but most Conservatives were always Pro-War... not War Protestors.. 

    and I must say again... simply saying we should have peace talks and acknowledging this didn't start by Putin waking up one day out of the blue and attacking Ukraine does not make you a supporter or one giving cover...
    No, it didn't happen out of the blue. They built up their forces on the border over time and then invaded.

    Saying this war didn't start with the invasion is 100% giving cover to Russia for invading Ukraine. 
    No it's not giving cover to them.....it's stating facts: They've been fighting in the Eastern provinces since the 2014. Those areas did not go along with the 2014 takeover of the government and fighting has been going on there ever since.. It did not happen out of the blue after the Russian built forces up ... There was a treaty (The Minsk Accords) that both Ukraine and the separatists agreed upon. Ukraine broke it by increasing hostilities and aggression towards those areas.

    What Are the Minsk Accords?


    Thinking Putin just woke ups one day and said go, after building forces for no reason what so ever is propaganda sold to the those that don't bother doing a little research... 


     
    So a violation of the Minsk accords gives Russia the right for a full scale invasion of Ukraine, destroying cities and civilians.  

    And Euromaiden was the absolute right reaction to the criminal Yanukoyvch's duplicitous turn to the East when he promised the Ukrainian people that he was aligning in the west. 
    Did I say it gave them the right? No, I said it didn't start with the invasion,,, This has been going on since 2014.. regardless of which is side is right or wrong,,, They both need to talk peace... period.. 
    Who should broker the "peace" and what should the settlement or "peace" consist of?
    Answered that earlier... 
    Well then, I find your answer, if this is it, lacking:

    Exactly....Yes both sides will give in any peace talks... First Ukraine will never get Crimea or the Eastern provinces back. Hell their government has been at war with the eastern provinces since 2014.. Those areas really haven't been part of Ukraine since the overthrow (Coup) of the government. Russia will give in the peace talks by stopping aggressive maneuvers further into Ukraine and will probably pull back to an agreed line. 
    Ukraine will also have to not become part of NATO... if none of this can be agreed upon then over time Russia will take all of Ukraine and the only thing we can do is start WW3 to stop them. i'm guessing most clear thinking people would not want that... so Ukraine would be sacrificed. 

    IMHO this peace would probably have already been agreed upon without the meddling and weapons from us.. 

    Are you referring to the popular uprising against a corrupt leader as a Coup? The same corrupt government that was pilfering the country putin on the ritz style? So, I guess you'd say the American Revolution was a "coup?"

    Asking/requiring Ukraine to not become a part of NATO is a total violation of their sovereignty and is not a threat based on NATO's posture. If, in the example you previously gave, should the US demand that Mexico, Canada and SA countries not join a defensive military alliance with putin on the ritz and Xi? And if they did or threatened or suggested that they would, should the US invade them?

    Peace is not enforced or demanded from the barrel of a gun. For there to be peace in Ukraine, putin on the ritz needs to withdraw his forces, pay reparations, return the Ukranian children taken and enter into dialog about the political future/governance of the eastern regions. Anything less than that is selling the Ukrainians and western democracy out. Don't forget that Ukraine willingly gave up its nuclear weapons to Russia upon the collapse of the Soviet Union and in doing so was granted particular guarantees. Guess they should have kept those nukes, eh?

    Now, who should broker the "peace?"
    09/15/1998 & 09/16/1998, Mansfield, MA; 08/29/00 08/30/00, Mansfield, MA; 07/02/03, 07/03/03, Mansfield, MA; 09/28/04, 09/29/04, Boston, MA; 09/22/05, Halifax, NS; 05/24/06, 05/25/06, Boston, MA; 07/22/06, 07/23/06, Gorge, WA; 06/27/2008, Hartford; 06/28/08, 06/30/08, Mansfield; 08/18/2009, O2, London, UK; 10/30/09, 10/31/09, Philadelphia, PA; 05/15/10, Hartford, CT; 05/17/10, Boston, MA; 05/20/10, 05/21/10, NY, NY; 06/22/10, Dublin, IRE; 06/23/10, Northern Ireland; 09/03/11, 09/04/11, Alpine Valley, WI; 09/11/11, 09/12/11, Toronto, Ont; 09/14/11, Ottawa, Ont; 09/15/11, Hamilton, Ont; 07/02/2012, Prague, Czech Republic; 07/04/2012 & 07/05/2012, Berlin, Germany; 07/07/2012, Stockholm, Sweden; 09/30/2012, Missoula, MT; 07/16/2013, London, Ont; 07/19/2013, Chicago, IL; 10/15/2013 & 10/16/2013, Worcester, MA; 10/21/2013 & 10/22/2013, Philadelphia, PA; 10/25/2013, Hartford, CT; 11/29/2013, Portland, OR; 11/30/2013, Spokane, WA; 12/04/2013, Vancouver, BC; 12/06/2013, Seattle, WA; 10/03/2014, St. Louis. MO; 10/22/2014, Denver, CO; 10/26/2015, New York, NY; 04/23/2016, New Orleans, LA; 04/28/2016 & 04/29/2016, Philadelphia, PA; 05/01/2016 & 05/02/2016, New York, NY; 05/08/2016, Ottawa, Ont.; 05/10/2016 & 05/12/2016, Toronto, Ont.; 08/05/2016 & 08/07/2016, Boston, MA; 08/20/2016 & 08/22/2016, Chicago, IL; 07/01/2018, Prague, Czech Republic; 07/03/2018, Krakow, Poland; 07/05/2018, Berlin, Germany; 09/02/2018 & 09/04/2018, Boston, MA; 09/08/2022, Toronto, Ont; 09/11/2022, New York, NY; 09/14/2022, Camden, NJ; 09/02/2023, St. Paul, MN; 05/04/2024 & 05/06/2024, Vancouver, BC; 05/10/2024, Portland, OR;

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  • Merkin Baller
    Merkin Baller Posts: 12,773
    Merkin Baller said:
    myoung321 said:
    mrussel1 said:
    myoung321 said:
    mrussel1 said:
    myoung321 said:
    Merkin Baller said:
    myoung321 said:
    Merkin Baller said:
    myoung321 said:
    Merkin Baller said:

    If you told me this many American's would show so much tacit support for Putin & Russia 20 years ago, I never would have believed it. 

    We are living in some strange times. 
    You know you can be against the war and still not be a supporter of Putin... mixing the two together is like saying if you were against the wars in Iraq and Afghanistan you were Pro-Terrorist.. 
    & there's no shortage of American conservatives showing support / making excuses for / giving cover to Putin. 
    I agree... but most Conservatives were always Pro-War... not War Protestors.. 

    and I must say again... simply saying we should have peace talks and acknowledging this didn't start by Putin waking up one day out of the blue and attacking Ukraine does not make you a supporter or one giving cover...
    No, it didn't happen out of the blue. They built up their forces on the border over time and then invaded.

    Saying this war didn't start with the invasion is 100% giving cover to Russia for invading Ukraine. 
    No it's not giving cover to them.....it's stating facts: They've been fighting in the Eastern provinces since the 2014. Those areas did not go along with the 2014 takeover of the government and fighting has been going on there ever since.. It did not happen out of the blue after the Russian built forces up ... There was a treaty (The Minsk Accords) that both Ukraine and the separatists agreed upon. Ukraine broke it by increasing hostilities and aggression towards those areas.

    What Are the Minsk Accords?


    Thinking Putin just woke ups one day and said go, after building forces for no reason what so ever is propaganda sold to the those that don't bother doing a little research... 


     
    So a violation of the Minsk accords gives Russia the right for a full scale invasion of Ukraine, destroying cities and civilians.  

    And Euromaiden was the absolute right reaction to the criminal Yanukoyvch's duplicitous turn to the East when he promised the Ukrainian people that he was aligning in the west. 
    Did I say it gave them the right? No, I said it didn't start with the invasion,,, This has been going on since 2014.. regardless of which is side is right or wrong,,, They both need to talk peace... period.. 
    The onus for peace does not reside with the county defending their lives and freedoms.  It's that simple. 
    The onus is on both sides to have peace... 
    Why should the Ukraine talk peace with an invading army?

    Why don't they have the right to protect their land? 

  • mrussel1
    mrussel1 Posts: 30,879
    myoung321 said:
    mrussel1 said:
    myoung321 said:
    mrussel1 said:
    myoung321 said:
    Merkin Baller said:
    myoung321 said:
    Merkin Baller said:
    myoung321 said:
    Merkin Baller said:

    If you told me this many American's would show so much tacit support for Putin & Russia 20 years ago, I never would have believed it. 

    We are living in some strange times. 
    You know you can be against the war and still not be a supporter of Putin... mixing the two together is like saying if you were against the wars in Iraq and Afghanistan you were Pro-Terrorist.. 
    & there's no shortage of American conservatives showing support / making excuses for / giving cover to Putin. 
    I agree... but most Conservatives were always Pro-War... not War Protestors.. 

    and I must say again... simply saying we should have peace talks and acknowledging this didn't start by Putin waking up one day out of the blue and attacking Ukraine does not make you a supporter or one giving cover...
    No, it didn't happen out of the blue. They built up their forces on the border over time and then invaded.

    Saying this war didn't start with the invasion is 100% giving cover to Russia for invading Ukraine. 
    No it's not giving cover to them.....it's stating facts: They've been fighting in the Eastern provinces since the 2014. Those areas did not go along with the 2014 takeover of the government and fighting has been going on there ever since.. It did not happen out of the blue after the Russian built forces up ... There was a treaty (The Minsk Accords) that both Ukraine and the separatists agreed upon. Ukraine broke it by increasing hostilities and aggression towards those areas.

    What Are the Minsk Accords?


    Thinking Putin just woke ups one day and said go, after building forces for no reason what so ever is propaganda sold to the those that don't bother doing a little research... 


     
    So a violation of the Minsk accords gives Russia the right for a full scale invasion of Ukraine, destroying cities and civilians.  

    And Euromaiden was the absolute right reaction to the criminal Yanukoyvch's duplicitous turn to the East when he promised the Ukrainian people that he was aligning in the west. 
    Did I say it gave them the right? No, I said it didn't start with the invasion,,, This has been going on since 2014.. regardless of which is side is right or wrong,,, They both need to talk peace... period.. 
    The onus for peace does not reside with the county defending their lives and freedoms.  It's that simple. 
    The onus is on both sides to have peace... 
    Since you like to use WWII as a reference (as do I), what part of the British empire should they have given Germany to prevent the Battle of Britain? 
  • mrussel1
    mrussel1 Posts: 30,879
    @myoung321 The fact that you called 2014 a "coup" is instructive as to where you are getting your information.  A "coup d'etat" is customarily used when a political faction, military or rebel group illegally seizes power.  That is not what the Revolution of Dignity was.  It was a popular, people's uprising that was overwhelmingly supported by the people.  If it was not, if the people wanted to be aligned with Russia rather than joining the EU, then we would have a Ukrainian civil war right now.  But we don't.  The country is united to fight the Russians because they do not see themselves as "Little Rus" as Putin would have you believe.  
  • mickeyrat
    mickeyrat Posts: 44,388

     
    By SARAH EL DEEB, ANASTASIIA SHVETS and ELIZAVETA TILNA
    32 mins ago

    Olga Lopatkina paced around her basement in circles like a trapped animal. For more than a week, the Ukrainian mother had heard nothing from her six adopted children stranded in Mariupol, and she was going out of her mind with worry.

    The kids had spent their vacation at a resort in the port city, as usual. But this time war with Russia had broken out, and her little ones — always terrified of the dark — were abandoned in a besieged city with no light and no hope. All they had now was her oldest son, Timofey, who was still himself just 17.

    The questions looped endlessly in her head: Should she try to rescue the children herself — and risk being killed, making them orphans yet again? Or should she campaign to get them out from afar — and risk them being killed or falling into the hands of the Russians?

    She had no idea her dilemma would lead her straight into a battle against Russia, with the highest stakes of her life.


    continues.....


    _____________________________________SIGNATURE________________________________________________

    Not today Sir, Probably not tomorrow.............................................. bayfront arena st. pete '94
    you're finally here and I'm a mess................................................... nationwide arena columbus '10
    memories like fingerprints are slowly raising.................................... first niagara center buffalo '13
    another man ..... moved by sleight of hand...................................... joe louis arena detroit '14
  • 23scidoo
    23scidoo Thessaloniki,Greece Posts: 19,962
    myoung321 said:
      yeah yeah yeah I'm a Putin supporter and okay with aggression because I have a different opinion. :s ..... thats fine..

    Guess we'll have to agree to disagree....Have a Nice Day! 
    you don't know who you're messing with??..
    Athens 2006. Dusseldorf 2007. Berlin 2009. Venice 2010. Amsterdam 1 2012. Amsterdam 1+2 2014. Buenos Aires 2015.
    Prague Krakow Berlin 2018. Berlin 2022
    EV, Taormina 1+2 2017.

    I wish i was the souvenir you kept your house key on..
  • josevolution
    josevolution Posts: 31,589
    Fuck Russia they should not get one concession from Ukraine zero nada zilch! 
    jesus greets me looks just like me ....
  • mickeyrat
    mickeyrat Posts: 44,388

    _____________________________________SIGNATURE________________________________________________

    Not today Sir, Probably not tomorrow.............................................. bayfront arena st. pete '94
    you're finally here and I'm a mess................................................... nationwide arena columbus '10
    memories like fingerprints are slowly raising.................................... first niagara center buffalo '13
    another man ..... moved by sleight of hand...................................... joe louis arena detroit '14
  • lastexitlondon
    lastexitlondon Posts: 14,895
    Im just  watching  the  bbc news and it says putin"visits" mariapol. 
    How can it be a fuckin  visit. Disgusting.  
    He is going round meeting  residents  that he fuckin blew up. 
    Not invited . Just going on tour of the  places he killed innocent  people.  
    Hate is not enough for this guy. He is insane.


    this song is meant to be called i got shit,itshould be called i got shit tickets-hartford 06 -
  • mickeyrat
    mickeyrat Posts: 44,388

     
    Japanese leader arrives in Kyiv as China's Xi visits Russia
    By KARL RITTER
    9 mins ago

    KYIV, Ukraine (AP) — Japanese Prime Minister Fumio Kishida arrived in Kyiv for a surprise visit Tuesday, hours after Chinese President Xi Jinping arrived in neighboring Russia on a three-day trip. Moscow's invasion of Ukraine will be in the spotlight at both meetings.

    Footage shown on Japanese national broadcaster NHK showed Kishida walking on the platform of Kyiv Central Station, escorted by a few people who appeared to be Ukrainian officials. The Ukrainian capital has not felt the brunt of the war, which has become bogged down eastern Ukraine.

    It was uncertain whether either of the Asian leaders' visits to Kyiv and Moscow would change the course of the almost 13-month war in Ukraine, but the talks about 800 kilometers (500 miles) apart highlighted the war’s repercussions for international diplomacy as countries line up behind rival parties.

    The meetings came after a week in which China and Japan both enjoyed diplomatic successes that have emboldened their foreign policy.

    Kishida, who is to chair the Group of Seven summit in May, will meet President Volodymyr Zelenskyy in the Ukrainian capital, coinciding with Xi's talks with President Vladimir Putin in Moscow.

    Other details of Kishida's visit were kept under wraps, though he was also due in Poland to meet with President Andrzej Duda before returning to Tokyo on Thursday morning.

    Kishida will “show respect to the courage and patience of the Ukrainian people who are standing up to defend their homeland under President Zelenskyy’s leadership, and show solidarity and unwavering support for Ukraine as head of Japan and chairman of G-7,” during his visit to Ukraine, the Japanese Foreign Ministry said in announcing his trip to Kyiv.

    At the talks, Kishida will show his “absolute rejection of Russia’s one-sided change to the status quo by invasion and force, and to affirm his commitment to defend the rules-based international order,” the ministry’s statement said.

    Putin warmly welcomed Xi to the Kremlin on Monday, starting a three-day visit the two major powers described as an opportunity to deepen their “no-limits friendship.”

    At a meeting with Russian Prime Minister Mikhail Mishustin on Tuesday, Xi said that he invited Putin to visit China at some point this year to attend a top-level meeting of China’s One Belt, One Road regional initiative, which seeks to extend Beijing's influence through economic cooperation projects.

    The invitation comes days after the International Criminal Court issued an arrest warrant for Putin, staining his international reputation. Neither Russia nor China recognize the court’s jurisdiction. Nor do the United States or Ukraine.

    Moscow and Beijing have both weathered international condemnation of their human rights record. The Chinese government has been widely condemned for alleged atrocities against Uighur Muslims in its far western Xinjiang region. The allegations include genocide, forced sterilization and the mass detention of nearly 1 million Uighurs. Beijing has denied the allegations.

    Japanese public television channel NTV showed Kishida riding a train from Poland heading to Kyiv. His surprise trip to Ukraine comes just hours after he met with Indian Prime Minister Narendra Modi in New Delhi, and the week after a breakthrough summit with South Korean President Yoon Suk Yoel.

    In New Delhi, Kishida called for developing and Global South countries to raise their voices to defend the rules-based international order and help stop Russia’s war.

    Japan, which has territorial disputes over islands with both China and Russia, is particularly concerned about the close relationship between Beijing and Moscow, which have conducted joint military exercises near Japan’s coasts.

    Meanwhile, Beijing’s foray into the debate over a war in Europe follows its recent success in brokering a deal between Iran and its chief Middle Eastern rival, Saudi Arabia. Iran and Saudi Arabia agreed to restore diplomatic ties after years of tensions, showing China's influence in a region where Washington has long been the major foreign player.

    Following that success, Xi said China should play a bigger role in managing global affairs.

    China looks to Russia as a source of oil and gas for its energy-hungry economy, and as a partner in standing up to what both see as U.S. aggression, domination of global affairs and unfair criticism of their human rights records.

    Kyiv's Western allies have expressed concern that China might help Russia's war effort, though Beijing insists it is a neutral broker in peace efforts.

    Ukraine’s military intelligence spokesman late on Monday said that Kyiv is not aware of any Chinese arms transfers to Russia so far. Andriy Yusov said on Ukrainian TV that while Beijing has provided some dual-use technology to Moscow, such as semiconductor chips, “there is no talk about weapons so far, and no such (supplies) have been recorded.”

    Kishida is the only G-7 leader who hasn’t visited Ukraine and was under pressure to do so at home. U.S. President Joe Biden took a similar route to visit Kyiv last month, just before the first anniversary of Russia’s invasion of Ukraine.

    Due to limitations of Japan’s pacifist constitution, his trip was arranged secretly. Kishida is Japan’s first postwar leader to enter a war zone. Kishida, invited by Zelenskyy in January to visit Kyiv, was also asked before his trip to India about a rumor of his possible trip at the end of March, denied it and said nothing concrete has been decided.

    Japan has joined the United States and European nations in sanctioning Russia over its invasion and providing humanitarian and economic support for Ukraine. In contrast, China has refused to condemn Moscow’s aggression and criticized Western sanctions against Moscow, while accusing NATO and the United States of provoking Putin’s military action.

    Japan was quick to react because it fears the possible impact of a war in East Asia, where China’s military has grown increasingly assertive and has escalated tensions around self-ruled Taiwan, which Beijing claims as its territory.

    In Beijing, foreign ministry spokesperson Wang Wenbin said that Beijing’s contacts with Russia will help to bring about peace. “President Putin said that Russia appreciates China’s consistent position of upholding fairness, objectivity and balance on major international issues," he said. "Russia has carefully studied China’s position paper on the political settlement of the Ukrainian issue, and is open to peace talks.”

    Asked about Kishida’s trip to Kyiv, he added, “We hope Japan could do more things to deescalate the situation instead of the opposite.”

    Television footage on NTV showed Kishida getting on a train from the Polish station of Przemysl near the border with Ukraine, with a number of officials.

    Due to its pacifist principles, Japan’s support for Ukraine has also been limited to non-combative military equipment such as helmets, bulletproof vests and drones, and humanitarian supplies including generators.

    Japan has contributed more than $7 billion to Ukraine, and accepted more than 2,000 displaced Ukrainians and helped them with housing assistance and support for jobs and education, a rare move in a country that is known for its strict immigration policy.

    __

    AP reporter Mari Yamaguchi in Tokyo contributed to this report.

    ___

    Follow the AP’s coverage of Ukraine at https://apnews.com/hub/russia-ukraine


    _____________________________________SIGNATURE________________________________________________

    Not today Sir, Probably not tomorrow.............................................. bayfront arena st. pete '94
    you're finally here and I'm a mess................................................... nationwide arena columbus '10
    memories like fingerprints are slowly raising.................................... first niagara center buffalo '13
    another man ..... moved by sleight of hand...................................... joe louis arena detroit '14
  • mickeyrat
    mickeyrat Posts: 44,388

    _____________________________________SIGNATURE________________________________________________

    Not today Sir, Probably not tomorrow.............................................. bayfront arena st. pete '94
    you're finally here and I'm a mess................................................... nationwide arena columbus '10
    memories like fingerprints are slowly raising.................................... first niagara center buffalo '13
    another man ..... moved by sleight of hand...................................... joe louis arena detroit '14

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