Ukraine
Comments
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Was Bush and Cheney bothered with it?lastexitlondon said:War crimes for putin
Arrest warrant out for him. I wonder if he is bothered
"The heart and mind are the true lens of the camera." - Yusuf Karsh
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I don’t think Shrub has a warrant out for his arrest but I do believe Darth Cheney does. And as such, it’s restricted his travel, which he’s fine with, I’m sure. Both should be arrested and held and tried at The Hague.myoung321 said:
Was Bush and Cheney bothered with it?lastexitlondon said:War crimes for putin
Arrest warrant out for him. I wonder if he is bothered09/15/1998 & 09/16/1998, Mansfield, MA; 08/29/00 08/30/00, Mansfield, MA; 07/02/03, 07/03/03, Mansfield, MA; 09/28/04, 09/29/04, Boston, MA; 09/22/05, Halifax, NS; 05/24/06, 05/25/06, Boston, MA; 07/22/06, 07/23/06, Gorge, WA; 06/27/2008, Hartford; 06/28/08, 06/30/08, Mansfield; 08/18/2009, O2, London, UK; 10/30/09, 10/31/09, Philadelphia, PA; 05/15/10, Hartford, CT; 05/17/10, Boston, MA; 05/20/10, 05/21/10, NY, NY; 06/22/10, Dublin, IRE; 06/23/10, Northern Ireland; 09/03/11, 09/04/11, Alpine Valley, WI; 09/11/11, 09/12/11, Toronto, Ont; 09/14/11, Ottawa, Ont; 09/15/11, Hamilton, Ont; 07/02/2012, Prague, Czech Republic; 07/04/2012 & 07/05/2012, Berlin, Germany; 07/07/2012, Stockholm, Sweden; 09/30/2012, Missoula, MT; 07/16/2013, London, Ont; 07/19/2013, Chicago, IL; 10/15/2013 & 10/16/2013, Worcester, MA; 10/21/2013 & 10/22/2013, Philadelphia, PA; 10/25/2013, Hartford, CT; 11/29/2013, Portland, OR; 11/30/2013, Spokane, WA; 12/04/2013, Vancouver, BC; 12/06/2013, Seattle, WA; 10/03/2014, St. Louis. MO; 10/22/2014, Denver, CO; 10/26/2015, New York, NY; 04/23/2016, New Orleans, LA; 04/28/2016 & 04/29/2016, Philadelphia, PA; 05/01/2016 & 05/02/2016, New York, NY; 05/08/2016, Ottawa, Ont.; 05/10/2016 & 05/12/2016, Toronto, Ont.; 08/05/2016 & 08/07/2016, Boston, MA; 08/20/2016 & 08/22/2016, Chicago, IL; 07/01/2018, Prague, Czech Republic; 07/03/2018, Krakow, Poland; 07/05/2018, Berlin, Germany; 09/02/2018 & 09/04/2018, Boston, MA; 09/08/2022, Toronto, Ont; 09/11/2022, New York, NY; 09/14/2022, Camden, NJ; 09/02/2023, St. Paul, MN; 05/04/2024 & 05/06/2024, Vancouver, BC; 05/10/2024, Portland, OR;
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If you told me this many American's would show so much tacit support for Putin & Russia 20 years ago, I never would have believed it.
We are living in some strange times.0 -
You know you can be against the war and still not be a supporter of Putin... mixing the two together is like saying if you were against the wars in Iraq and Afghanistan you were Pro-Terrorist..Merkin Baller said:
If you told me this many American's would show so much tacit support for Putin & Russia 20 years ago, I never would have believed it.
We are living in some strange times."The heart and mind are the true lens of the camera." - Yusuf Karsh
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If you told me this many Democrats and people that called themselves progressives would be Pro-War and Pro-Censorship 20 years ago. I never would have believed it.Merkin Baller said:
If you told me this many American's would show so much tacit support for Putin & Russia 20 years ago, I never would have believed it.
We are living in some strange times.
We are living in some strange times.
"The heart and mind are the true lens of the camera." - Yusuf Karsh
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Are you against Ukraine's defense of their country against an invading army?myoung321 said:
You know you can be against the war and still not be a supporter of Putin... mixing the two together is like saying if you were against the wars in Iraq and Afghanistan you were Pro-Terrorist..Merkin Baller said:
If you told me this many American's would show so much tacit support for Putin & Russia 20 years ago, I never would have believed it.
We are living in some strange times.
I'm no expert on these things, but it seems pretty black & white to me.0 -
& there's no shortage of American conservatives showing support / making excuses for / giving cover to Putin.myoung321 said:
You know you can be against the war and still not be a supporter of Putin... mixing the two together is like saying if you were against the wars in Iraq and Afghanistan you were Pro-Terrorist..Merkin Baller said:
If you told me this many American's would show so much tacit support for Putin & Russia 20 years ago, I never would have believed it.
We are living in some strange times.0 -
I agree... but most Conservatives don't have a history of being War Protestors..Merkin Baller said:
& there's no shortage of American conservatives showing support / making excuses for / giving cover to Putin.myoung321 said:
You know you can be against the war and still not be a supporter of Putin... mixing the two together is like saying if you were against the wars in Iraq and Afghanistan you were Pro-Terrorist..Merkin Baller said:
If you told me this many American's would show so much tacit support for Putin & Russia 20 years ago, I never would have believed it.
We are living in some strange times.
and I must say again... simply saying we should have peace talks and acknowledging this didn't start by Putin waking up one day out of the blue and attacking Ukraine does not make you a supporter or one giving cover...Post edited by myoung321 on"The heart and mind are the true lens of the camera." - Yusuf Karsh
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ICC does not have a warrant out for either Shrub or Darth. However, nothing stops anyone from filing a criminal complaint upon entry to a country, which could potentially lead to a criminal case.Halifax2TheMax said:
I don’t think Shrub has a warrant out for his arrest but I do believe Darth Cheney does. And as such, it’s restricted his travel, which he’s fine with, I’m sure. Both should be arrested and held and tried at The Hague.myoung321 said:
Was Bush and Cheney bothered with it?lastexitlondon said:War crimes for putin
Arrest warrant out for him. I wonder if he is bothered09/15/1998 & 09/16/1998, Mansfield, MA; 08/29/00 08/30/00, Mansfield, MA; 07/02/03, 07/03/03, Mansfield, MA; 09/28/04, 09/29/04, Boston, MA; 09/22/05, Halifax, NS; 05/24/06, 05/25/06, Boston, MA; 07/22/06, 07/23/06, Gorge, WA; 06/27/2008, Hartford; 06/28/08, 06/30/08, Mansfield; 08/18/2009, O2, London, UK; 10/30/09, 10/31/09, Philadelphia, PA; 05/15/10, Hartford, CT; 05/17/10, Boston, MA; 05/20/10, 05/21/10, NY, NY; 06/22/10, Dublin, IRE; 06/23/10, Northern Ireland; 09/03/11, 09/04/11, Alpine Valley, WI; 09/11/11, 09/12/11, Toronto, Ont; 09/14/11, Ottawa, Ont; 09/15/11, Hamilton, Ont; 07/02/2012, Prague, Czech Republic; 07/04/2012 & 07/05/2012, Berlin, Germany; 07/07/2012, Stockholm, Sweden; 09/30/2012, Missoula, MT; 07/16/2013, London, Ont; 07/19/2013, Chicago, IL; 10/15/2013 & 10/16/2013, Worcester, MA; 10/21/2013 & 10/22/2013, Philadelphia, PA; 10/25/2013, Hartford, CT; 11/29/2013, Portland, OR; 11/30/2013, Spokane, WA; 12/04/2013, Vancouver, BC; 12/06/2013, Seattle, WA; 10/03/2014, St. Louis. MO; 10/22/2014, Denver, CO; 10/26/2015, New York, NY; 04/23/2016, New Orleans, LA; 04/28/2016 & 04/29/2016, Philadelphia, PA; 05/01/2016 & 05/02/2016, New York, NY; 05/08/2016, Ottawa, Ont.; 05/10/2016 & 05/12/2016, Toronto, Ont.; 08/05/2016 & 08/07/2016, Boston, MA; 08/20/2016 & 08/22/2016, Chicago, IL; 07/01/2018, Prague, Czech Republic; 07/03/2018, Krakow, Poland; 07/05/2018, Berlin, Germany; 09/02/2018 & 09/04/2018, Boston, MA; 09/08/2022, Toronto, Ont; 09/11/2022, New York, NY; 09/14/2022, Camden, NJ; 09/02/2023, St. Paul, MN; 05/04/2024 & 05/06/2024, Vancouver, BC; 05/10/2024, Portland, OR;
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No, it didn't happen out of the blue. They built up their forces on the border over time and then invaded.myoung321 said:
I agree... but most Conservatives were always Pro-War... not War Protestors..Merkin Baller said:
& there's no shortage of American conservatives showing support / making excuses for / giving cover to Putin.myoung321 said:
You know you can be against the war and still not be a supporter of Putin... mixing the two together is like saying if you were against the wars in Iraq and Afghanistan you were Pro-Terrorist..Merkin Baller said:
If you told me this many American's would show so much tacit support for Putin & Russia 20 years ago, I never would have believed it.
We are living in some strange times.
and I must say again... simply saying we should have peace talks and acknowledging this didn't start by Putin waking up one day out of the blue and attacking Ukraine does not make you a supporter or one giving cover...
Saying this war didn't start with the invasion is 100% giving cover to Russia for invading Ukraine.0 -
not the ICC...but,,Halifax2TheMax said:
ICC does not have a warrant out for either Shrub or Darth. However, nothing stops anyone from filing a criminal complaint upon entry to a country, which could potentially lead to a criminal case.Halifax2TheMax said:
I don’t think Shrub has a warrant out for his arrest but I do believe Darth Cheney does. And as such, it’s restricted his travel, which he’s fine with, I’m sure. Both should be arrested and held and tried at The Hague.myoung321 said:
Was Bush and Cheney bothered with it?lastexitlondon said:War crimes for putin
Arrest warrant out for him. I wonder if he is bothered
Post edited by myoung321 on"The heart and mind are the true lens of the camera." - Yusuf Karsh
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Plus we know the ISS, like NATO is controlled by the US and will never go against them"The heart and mind are the true lens of the camera." - Yusuf Karsh
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Were you okay with Iraq's invasion of Kuwait in 1991? That's the better comparison over Afghanistan, justified, and Iraq 2003, unjustified and criminal.myoung321 said:
So then you'd be okay with Mexico and Canada and Central American countries joining a military alliance with China and Russia?mrussel1 said:
But Ukraine will not and should (nor should we agree to) promise to never join NATO. That is a total infringement on another country's sovereignty.myoung321 said:
Exactly....Yes both sides will give in any peace talks... First Ukraine will never get Crimea or the Eastern provinces back. Hell their government has been at war with the eastern provinces since 2014.. Those areas really haven't been part of Ukraine since the overthrow (Coup) of the government. Russia will give in the peace talks by stopping aggressive maneuvers further into Ukraine and will probably pull back to an agreed line.mrussel1 said:
Peace talks are great. Most think Ukraine is resigned to losing Crimea and far eastern oblasts that they lost in 2014. But that wasn't enough for Putin. War are you suggesting each side should give?myoung321 said:
I'd preferred we send people for peace talks... more weapons is only helping the weapons manufacturers, but not helping end the war... People need to come to terms, Ukraine cannot win this war...but we will flood them with weapons as long as they're useful for making money for the defense industry. When they aren't useful any longer we will turn our backs and walk away....PJ_Soul said:Poland is sending the Ukraine some fighter jets. It's about time somebody did! I hope more countries follow their lead.
I know I will get hate for that, but the truth is the truth.. The sooner peace talks begin the better for everyone involved..
Ukraine will also have to not become part of NATO... if none of this can be agreed upon then over time Russia will take all of Ukraine and the only thing we can do is start WW3 to stop them. i'm guessing most clear thinking people would not want that... so Ukraine would be sacrificed.
IMHO this peace would probably have already been agreed upon without the meddling and weapons from us..
Ask the Cubans how the US would react....
Your comment of ("nor should we agree to")...first who is this "WE" are you Ukrainian? If you believe this then you think that's worth starting WW3, so Ukraine can be in NATO? if so, WOW.... You do realize that If WW3 started Ukraine will be the first thing wiped off the map...
The invasion of Ukraine was an unprovoked attack on a sovereign, democratic nation, and represents an attack on western democracy and ideals. If the west, democratic nations, allow this, then it opens the door for other authoritarian regimes to invade other democracies. Think China/Taiwan, NK/SK, Russia/Poland, etc. To compare Russia's invasion of Ukraine to the US's invasion of Afghanistan or Iraq in 2003 is a false comparison. Its more like Iraq/Kuwait 1991. And I'll add, it is mighty difficult for the US to condemn Russia for its invasion because of Iraq 2003, which was wrong and criminal, but that doesn't make what Russia is doing right or acceptable.
WW3 is hyperbole and aint happening over Ukraine. Mexico, Canada and Central American countries are not going to align in a defensive military alliance with Moscow. Hilarious you bring it up as its the Maggie Three Names, Ted Crud's and the MAGATs that have currently advocated for the US to invade their nations. If they did form a military alliance with putin on the ritz, would you blame them?09/15/1998 & 09/16/1998, Mansfield, MA; 08/29/00 08/30/00, Mansfield, MA; 07/02/03, 07/03/03, Mansfield, MA; 09/28/04, 09/29/04, Boston, MA; 09/22/05, Halifax, NS; 05/24/06, 05/25/06, Boston, MA; 07/22/06, 07/23/06, Gorge, WA; 06/27/2008, Hartford; 06/28/08, 06/30/08, Mansfield; 08/18/2009, O2, London, UK; 10/30/09, 10/31/09, Philadelphia, PA; 05/15/10, Hartford, CT; 05/17/10, Boston, MA; 05/20/10, 05/21/10, NY, NY; 06/22/10, Dublin, IRE; 06/23/10, Northern Ireland; 09/03/11, 09/04/11, Alpine Valley, WI; 09/11/11, 09/12/11, Toronto, Ont; 09/14/11, Ottawa, Ont; 09/15/11, Hamilton, Ont; 07/02/2012, Prague, Czech Republic; 07/04/2012 & 07/05/2012, Berlin, Germany; 07/07/2012, Stockholm, Sweden; 09/30/2012, Missoula, MT; 07/16/2013, London, Ont; 07/19/2013, Chicago, IL; 10/15/2013 & 10/16/2013, Worcester, MA; 10/21/2013 & 10/22/2013, Philadelphia, PA; 10/25/2013, Hartford, CT; 11/29/2013, Portland, OR; 11/30/2013, Spokane, WA; 12/04/2013, Vancouver, BC; 12/06/2013, Seattle, WA; 10/03/2014, St. Louis. MO; 10/22/2014, Denver, CO; 10/26/2015, New York, NY; 04/23/2016, New Orleans, LA; 04/28/2016 & 04/29/2016, Philadelphia, PA; 05/01/2016 & 05/02/2016, New York, NY; 05/08/2016, Ottawa, Ont.; 05/10/2016 & 05/12/2016, Toronto, Ont.; 08/05/2016 & 08/07/2016, Boston, MA; 08/20/2016 & 08/22/2016, Chicago, IL; 07/01/2018, Prague, Czech Republic; 07/03/2018, Krakow, Poland; 07/05/2018, Berlin, Germany; 09/02/2018 & 09/04/2018, Boston, MA; 09/08/2022, Toronto, Ont; 09/11/2022, New York, NY; 09/14/2022, Camden, NJ; 09/02/2023, St. Paul, MN; 05/04/2024 & 05/06/2024, Vancouver, BC; 05/10/2024, Portland, OR;
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How the fuck would Russia hold territory in Ukraine? Please explain to me how they would have the manpower to hold cities like Kherson, Kiev, and the like considering they are a hostile force. The analogy is dead on. The only reason they can hold the far east with the separatists is that they were pro-Russian emigrates. The main Ukraine is not.myoung321 said:
Vietnam, Afghanistan and Iraq,,, (and the Soviets in Afghanistan) all have one thing in common ... They did not capture territory.. we did not advance and capture areas. We ran hit and run get in and get out operations, then back tot he safe zones... and that is not sustainable.. we've proved that. Every day Russia is capturing territory. So comparing it is disingenuous at best.mrussel1 said:myoung321 said:
Exactly....Yes both sides will give in any peace talks... First Ukraine will never get Crimea or the Eastern provinces back. Hell their government has been at war with the eastern provinces since 2014.. Those areas really haven't been part of Ukraine since the overthrow (Coup) of the government. Russia will give in the peace talks by stopping aggressive maneuvers further into Ukraine and will probably pull back to an agreed line.mrussel1 said:
Peace talks are great. Most think Ukraine is resigned to losing Crimea and far eastern oblasts that they lost in 2014. But that wasn't enough for Putin. War are you suggesting each side should give?myoung321 said:
I'd preferred we send people for peace talks... more weapons is only helping the weapons manufacturers, but not helping end the war... People need to come to terms, Ukraine cannot win this war...but we will flood them with weapons as long as they're useful for making money for the defense industry. When they aren't useful any longer we will turn our backs and walk away....PJ_Soul said:Poland is sending the Ukraine some fighter jets. It's about time somebody did! I hope more countries follow their lead.
I know I will get hate for that, but the truth is the truth.. The sooner peace talks begin the better for everyone involved..
Ukraine will also have to not become part of NATO... if none of this can be agreed upon then over time Russia will take all of Ukraine and the only thing we can do is start WW3 to stop them. i'm guessing most clear thinking people would not want that... so Ukraine would be sacrificed.
IMHO this peace would probably have already been agreed upon without the meddling and weapons from us..
If you think Russia will eventually win, I would point you to Vietnam, Afghanistan circa 1980 and Afghanistan circa 2005 as evidence why that is not a foregone conclusion.
And yes, I say "we" as I am Ukrainian. My father was born there and his family was wiped out in Holodomor other than the few that were able to escape.0 -
No it's not giving cover to them.....it's stating facts: They've been fighting in the Eastern provinces since the 2014. Those areas did not go along with the 2014 takeover of the government and fighting has been going on there ever since.. It did not happen out of the blue after the Russian built forces up ... There was a treaty (The Minsk Accords) that both Ukraine and the separatists agreed upon. Ukraine broke it by increasing hostilities and aggression towards those areas.Merkin Baller said:
No, it didn't happen out of the blue. They built up their forces on the border over time and then invaded.myoung321 said:
I agree... but most Conservatives were always Pro-War... not War Protestors..Merkin Baller said:
& there's no shortage of American conservatives showing support / making excuses for / giving cover to Putin.myoung321 said:
You know you can be against the war and still not be a supporter of Putin... mixing the two together is like saying if you were against the wars in Iraq and Afghanistan you were Pro-Terrorist..Merkin Baller said:
If you told me this many American's would show so much tacit support for Putin & Russia 20 years ago, I never would have believed it.
We are living in some strange times.
and I must say again... simply saying we should have peace talks and acknowledging this didn't start by Putin waking up one day out of the blue and attacking Ukraine does not make you a supporter or one giving cover...
Saying this war didn't start with the invasion is 100% giving cover to Russia for invading Ukraine.What Are the Minsk Accords?
Saying the war started "100%" with the invasion and Thinking Putin just woke ups one day and said go, after building forces for no reason what so ever is propaganda sold to the those that don't bother doing a little research...
Post edited by myoung321 on"The heart and mind are the true lens of the camera." - Yusuf Karsh
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You are drawing moral equivalency between NATO and Russian interests. They are not equal in my book. NATO countries are democratic, generally egalitarian and respect human rights. Russia is a cesspool of corruption and everywhere that Putin touches, misery and poverty follows. Do a little research into the state of the Donbas between 2014 and invasion.myoung321 said:
So then you'd be okay with Mexico and Canada and Central American countries joining a military alliance with China and Russia?mrussel1 said:
But Ukraine will not and should (nor should we agree to) promise to never join NATO. That is a total infringement on another country's sovereignty.myoung321 said:
Exactly....Yes both sides will give in any peace talks... First Ukraine will never get Crimea or the Eastern provinces back. Hell their government has been at war with the eastern provinces since 2014.. Those areas really haven't been part of Ukraine since the overthrow (Coup) of the government. Russia will give in the peace talks by stopping aggressive maneuvers further into Ukraine and will probably pull back to an agreed line.mrussel1 said:
Peace talks are great. Most think Ukraine is resigned to losing Crimea and far eastern oblasts that they lost in 2014. But that wasn't enough for Putin. War are you suggesting each side should give?myoung321 said:
I'd preferred we send people for peace talks... more weapons is only helping the weapons manufacturers, but not helping end the war... People need to come to terms, Ukraine cannot win this war...but we will flood them with weapons as long as they're useful for making money for the defense industry. When they aren't useful any longer we will turn our backs and walk away....PJ_Soul said:Poland is sending the Ukraine some fighter jets. It's about time somebody did! I hope more countries follow their lead.
I know I will get hate for that, but the truth is the truth.. The sooner peace talks begin the better for everyone involved..
Ukraine will also have to not become part of NATO... if none of this can be agreed upon then over time Russia will take all of Ukraine and the only thing we can do is start WW3 to stop them. i'm guessing most clear thinking people would not want that... so Ukraine would be sacrificed.
IMHO this peace would probably have already been agreed upon without the meddling and weapons from us..
Ask the Cubans how the US would react....
Your comment of ("nor should we agree to")...first who is this "WE" are you Ukrainian? If you believe this then you think that's worth starting WW3, so Ukraine can be in NATO? if so, WOW.... You do realize that If WW3 started Ukraine will be the first thing wiped off the map...
If you were asking who I think was wrong in the Franco-British wars of the early 19th centrury, then yeah we could have a spirited debate of moral equivalency. But anything that tries to justify Russian aggression is fucking despicable.0 -
Jesus. Does / did your father talk much about it? I'm sure he was very young at the time... that's some heavy shit.mrussel1 said:
How the fuck would Russia hold territory in Ukraine? Please explain to me how they would have the manpower to hold cities like Kherson, Kiev, and the like considering they are a hostile force. The analogy is dead on. The only reason they can hold the far east with the separatists is that they were pro-Russian emigrates. The main Ukraine is not.myoung321 said:
Vietnam, Afghanistan and Iraq,,, (and the Soviets in Afghanistan) all have one thing in common ... They did not capture territory.. we did not advance and capture areas. We ran hit and run get in and get out operations, then back tot he safe zones... and that is not sustainable.. we've proved that. Every day Russia is capturing territory. So comparing it is disingenuous at best.mrussel1 said:myoung321 said:
Exactly....Yes both sides will give in any peace talks... First Ukraine will never get Crimea or the Eastern provinces back. Hell their government has been at war with the eastern provinces since 2014.. Those areas really haven't been part of Ukraine since the overthrow (Coup) of the government. Russia will give in the peace talks by stopping aggressive maneuvers further into Ukraine and will probably pull back to an agreed line.mrussel1 said:
Peace talks are great. Most think Ukraine is resigned to losing Crimea and far eastern oblasts that they lost in 2014. But that wasn't enough for Putin. War are you suggesting each side should give?myoung321 said:
I'd preferred we send people for peace talks... more weapons is only helping the weapons manufacturers, but not helping end the war... People need to come to terms, Ukraine cannot win this war...but we will flood them with weapons as long as they're useful for making money for the defense industry. When they aren't useful any longer we will turn our backs and walk away....PJ_Soul said:Poland is sending the Ukraine some fighter jets. It's about time somebody did! I hope more countries follow their lead.
I know I will get hate for that, but the truth is the truth.. The sooner peace talks begin the better for everyone involved..
Ukraine will also have to not become part of NATO... if none of this can be agreed upon then over time Russia will take all of Ukraine and the only thing we can do is start WW3 to stop them. i'm guessing most clear thinking people would not want that... so Ukraine would be sacrificed.
IMHO this peace would probably have already been agreed upon without the meddling and weapons from us..
If you think Russia will eventually win, I would point you to Vietnam, Afghanistan circa 1980 and Afghanistan circa 2005 as evidence why that is not a foregone conclusion.
And yes, I say "we" as I am Ukrainian. My father was born there and his family was wiped out in Holodomor other than the few that were able to escape.
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So a violation of the Minsk accords gives Russia the right for a full scale invasion of Ukraine, destroying cities and civilians.myoung321 said:
No it's not giving cover to them.....it's stating facts: They've been fighting in the Eastern provinces since the 2014. Those areas did not go along with the 2014 takeover of the government and fighting has been going on there ever since.. It did not happen out of the blue after the Russian built forces up ... There was a treaty (The Minsk Accords) that both Ukraine and the separatists agreed upon. Ukraine broke it by increasing hostilities and aggression towards those areas.Merkin Baller said:
No, it didn't happen out of the blue. They built up their forces on the border over time and then invaded.myoung321 said:
I agree... but most Conservatives were always Pro-War... not War Protestors..Merkin Baller said:
& there's no shortage of American conservatives showing support / making excuses for / giving cover to Putin.myoung321 said:
You know you can be against the war and still not be a supporter of Putin... mixing the two together is like saying if you were against the wars in Iraq and Afghanistan you were Pro-Terrorist..Merkin Baller said:
If you told me this many American's would show so much tacit support for Putin & Russia 20 years ago, I never would have believed it.
We are living in some strange times.
and I must say again... simply saying we should have peace talks and acknowledging this didn't start by Putin waking up one day out of the blue and attacking Ukraine does not make you a supporter or one giving cover...
Saying this war didn't start with the invasion is 100% giving cover to Russia for invading Ukraine.What Are the Minsk Accords?
Thinking Putin just woke ups one day and said go, after building forces for no reason what so ever is propaganda sold to the those that don't bother doing a little research...
And Euromaiden was the absolute right reaction to the criminal Yanukoyvch's duplicitous turn to the East when he promised the Ukrainian people that he was aligning in the west.0 -
My father died in 1993. He was 45 when he had me, so much older. I was only 19. But he was 3 when he came over, but warned us never to go back. Now remember, it was USSR until 1990, so when he died, it was still turmoil. But for better or worse, he taught us to never trust the Russians.Merkin Baller said:
Jesus. Does / did your father talk much about it? I'm sure he was very young at the time... that's some heavy shit.mrussel1 said:
How the fuck would Russia hold territory in Ukraine? Please explain to me how they would have the manpower to hold cities like Kherson, Kiev, and the like considering they are a hostile force. The analogy is dead on. The only reason they can hold the far east with the separatists is that they were pro-Russian emigrates. The main Ukraine is not.myoung321 said:
Vietnam, Afghanistan and Iraq,,, (and the Soviets in Afghanistan) all have one thing in common ... They did not capture territory.. we did not advance and capture areas. We ran hit and run get in and get out operations, then back tot he safe zones... and that is not sustainable.. we've proved that. Every day Russia is capturing territory. So comparing it is disingenuous at best.mrussel1 said:myoung321 said:
Exactly....Yes both sides will give in any peace talks... First Ukraine will never get Crimea or the Eastern provinces back. Hell their government has been at war with the eastern provinces since 2014.. Those areas really haven't been part of Ukraine since the overthrow (Coup) of the government. Russia will give in the peace talks by stopping aggressive maneuvers further into Ukraine and will probably pull back to an agreed line.mrussel1 said:
Peace talks are great. Most think Ukraine is resigned to losing Crimea and far eastern oblasts that they lost in 2014. But that wasn't enough for Putin. War are you suggesting each side should give?myoung321 said:
I'd preferred we send people for peace talks... more weapons is only helping the weapons manufacturers, but not helping end the war... People need to come to terms, Ukraine cannot win this war...but we will flood them with weapons as long as they're useful for making money for the defense industry. When they aren't useful any longer we will turn our backs and walk away....PJ_Soul said:Poland is sending the Ukraine some fighter jets. It's about time somebody did! I hope more countries follow their lead.
I know I will get hate for that, but the truth is the truth.. The sooner peace talks begin the better for everyone involved..
Ukraine will also have to not become part of NATO... if none of this can be agreed upon then over time Russia will take all of Ukraine and the only thing we can do is start WW3 to stop them. i'm guessing most clear thinking people would not want that... so Ukraine would be sacrificed.
IMHO this peace would probably have already been agreed upon without the meddling and weapons from us..
If you think Russia will eventually win, I would point you to Vietnam, Afghanistan circa 1980 and Afghanistan circa 2005 as evidence why that is not a foregone conclusion.
And yes, I say "we" as I am Ukrainian. My father was born there and his family was wiped out in Holodomor other than the few that were able to escape.0 -
Did I say it gave them the right? No, I said it didn't start with the invasion,,, This has been going on since 2014.. regardless of which is side is right or wrong,,, They both need to talk peace... period..mrussel1 said:
So a violation of the Minsk accords gives Russia the right for a full scale invasion of Ukraine, destroying cities and civilians.myoung321 said:
No it's not giving cover to them.....it's stating facts: They've been fighting in the Eastern provinces since the 2014. Those areas did not go along with the 2014 takeover of the government and fighting has been going on there ever since.. It did not happen out of the blue after the Russian built forces up ... There was a treaty (The Minsk Accords) that both Ukraine and the separatists agreed upon. Ukraine broke it by increasing hostilities and aggression towards those areas.Merkin Baller said:
No, it didn't happen out of the blue. They built up their forces on the border over time and then invaded.myoung321 said:
I agree... but most Conservatives were always Pro-War... not War Protestors..Merkin Baller said:
& there's no shortage of American conservatives showing support / making excuses for / giving cover to Putin.myoung321 said:
You know you can be against the war and still not be a supporter of Putin... mixing the two together is like saying if you were against the wars in Iraq and Afghanistan you were Pro-Terrorist..Merkin Baller said:
If you told me this many American's would show so much tacit support for Putin & Russia 20 years ago, I never would have believed it.
We are living in some strange times.
and I must say again... simply saying we should have peace talks and acknowledging this didn't start by Putin waking up one day out of the blue and attacking Ukraine does not make you a supporter or one giving cover...
Saying this war didn't start with the invasion is 100% giving cover to Russia for invading Ukraine.What Are the Minsk Accords?
Thinking Putin just woke ups one day and said go, after building forces for no reason what so ever is propaganda sold to the those that don't bother doing a little research...
And Euromaiden was the absolute right reaction to the criminal Yanukoyvch's duplicitous turn to the East when he promised the Ukrainian people that he was aligning in the west."The heart and mind are the true lens of the camera." - Yusuf Karsh
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