Ukraine

Jearlpam0925

Let's remember in regards to the US:

1. Trump when it was finally written on the wall that he was the GOP nominee, that he demanded all platform-related issues in condemning Russia be removed
2. Trump wanted the US to leave NATO
3. Punched down on Ukraine in a made-up delusional scheme about servers
4. This isn't rocket science

Merkin Baller

Jearlpam0925 said:

Let's remember in regards to the US:

1. Trump when it was finally written on the wall that he was the GOP nominee, that he demanded all platform-related issues in condemning Russia be removed
2. Trump wanted the US to leave NATO
3. Punched down on Ukraine in a made-up delusional scheme about servers
4. This isn't rocket science

TFG was literally impeached for extorting the Ukraine by withholding congressional approved aid until they produced incriminating evidence against his opponent that didn't exist, but I'm sure that was just a coincidence. 

Proly. 

HughFreakingDillon

why did putin not invade when trump was prez? did he think that a second term was a no brainer?

mrussel1

HughFreakingDillon said:

why did putin not invade when trump was prez? did he think that a second term was a no brainer?

I think there could be a number of reasons for that.  

1. He wanted Nord stream to be completed
2. China may have stopped him
3. Military wasn't ready
4. Worried about a spread of Covid in troops in 2020.  Obviously diseases spread rampantly in war. 
5. Maybe something to do with Trump

Hard to say.  

Jearlpam0925

HughFreakingDillon said:

why did putin not invade when trump was prez? did he think that a second term was a no brainer?

I mean he preceded this action with something during Trump's tenure that I think was absolutely worse than this, and that was his sweeping amendments he put in place. This got like zero play at the time and I'd say is pretty integral to the actions being taken now.

Additionally, I'm sure sowing division when a non-Russian sympathizer is the representation makes for better propaganda down the line. I mean the GOP's best position on this right now is to either dunk on themselves or to do a Fox News pivot to truckers in Canada.

Spiritual_Chaos

https://twitter.com/MattGertz/status/1496223722612666380?s=20&t=LrZiJwL7Iox_HpW5Yts6yQ

mickeyrat

Spiritual_Chaos said:

https://twitter.com/MattGertz/status/1496223722612666380?s=20&t=LrZiJwL7Iox_HpW5Yts6yQ

Umm Donny? Your fave Pres already did that once.....

Bentleyspop

Remember when RUssia was the enemy?

Now the QtRUmplicans led by the likes of the former guy and tuQer Qarlson are tripping all over themselves to defend RUssia and denigrate President Joe Biden.

RoleModelsinBlood31

mrussel1 said:

Merkin Baller said:

Gern Blansten said:

RoleModelsinBlood31 said:

mrussel1 said:

RoleModelsinBlood31 said:

mrussel1 said:

static111 said:

HughFreakingDillon said:

static111 said:

HughFreakingDillon said:

static111 said:

The defense industry doesn't pay itself.

I'm not entirely sure what is meant by this comment. 

After pulling out of Afghanistan our defense sector is a little adrift. Hopefully the sanctions work.  If not I see the machine trying to whip up the usual patriotic freedom talk fervor until we get to an acceptable level of public opinion to get our armed forces involved and get that defense cash machine cranking back up. 

but this isn't the US inventing a conflict to further their own agenda. this is all russia. should the world just stand idly by and let putin do whatever he wants?

from letter from an american
 "Putin and his fellow oligarchs have amassed power thanks to the financial laxness of western democracies, which their money has helped to destabilize. With Putin’s attack on the international rule of law today, challenging western nations to stop him, Edward Luce of the Financial Times identified the larger picture: “Cannot be stated strongly enough,” he wrote. “If the west—chiefly America, but also Britain—doesn't burn its financial ties to Russia's oligarchy then Putin will prevail. This means taking on Wall Street, the City, law firms[,] realtors, the prep schools and western laundering outfits.”"

This is one of the reasons I don't think anything will happen.  Regarding your question, should we stand Idly by?  I don't know, which action will cause more longterm worldwide harm for the greater part of humanity?  I wish I was a fortune teller.

The FT is right here, in that heavy sanctions against individuals is solution that harms Russia severely while keeping our troops off the front line.  Don't forget that Ukraine has a 450k person army that is fully mobilized.  Add that with teh NATO and US support, and Russia trying to take central and West Ukraine will be bloody business.  They may be able to penetrate, but they cannot hold it.  

Regarding the broader point, today:

1. Germany declared it will halt certification of Nord 2.  I said this a month ago, this was a genius play by Biden to mollify the Germans in letting it continue over the summer, and keeping the card in his pocket.  Now we have Germany united with us.  This is huge. 

2. EU council sanctioned 193 persons and 48 entities, including member of the Duma.  Their assets are frozen and cannot travel anywhere in the EU

3. And from the FT regarding sanctions being discussed and likely voted upon today by the EU:

The package discussed in a meeting of EU ambassadors was wider than some officials had expected. The proposals encompass restrictions on the refinancing of Russian government debt and on its central bank, as well as on about 350 members of the Russian Duma, and on individuals and businesses linked to Russian actions in the separatist regions, according to people familiar with the discussions.

I always love to read what you post, it’s super insightful.

I disagree though and feel that one of the big reasons we’ve gotten to where we are now with Russia and Ukraine was that Germany and Joe Biden indicated that they were just not serious when it came to Nord Stream 2.  

When Joe Biden waived sanctions on it back in May and Germany indicated they were willing to make themselves beholden to Russia for their energy, Vladimir Putin knew that he was being given a green light. He saw weakness and lack of resolve all over the place. 

Had Germany taken this move a week ago, it might have had an effect; it’s questionable what effect it will have now, with Putin’s action already underway and military vehicles and weaponry in place. This all started sliding because Joe Biden waived sanctions on the pipeline in May 2021 despite the U.S.’s long-term opposition to the pipeline. 

Biden made a succession of moves and remarks that emboldened Putin. But Putin also knew based on Barack Obama-Joe Biden’s prior response in 2014, that he would face weakness from Biden. The Democrats had the opportunity to cut the pipeline off once again when Sen. Ted Cruz (R-TX) called for a vote on sanctions last month.  

Instead of standing with U.S. interests and Ukraine, the Democrats not only stood with Putin but they went full-on hypocrite, using the filibuster rule, to kill Cruz’s bill.

I’m hoping this will have an affect, but I really think this is all too late.  Our discussed US sanctions so far have been to impose sanctions on the two territories, but not Russia?  Why is Biden so lax on laying down the hammer on Putin?  Why is he so content on waiting for other powers to do something g and then jump on board, instead of paving the way for serious sanctions?  I hope he blasts Putin where it hurts personally, and we’ll wait to see.

I disagree, here's why.  

Sanctioning or stopping the pipeline before Russia even made a move towards Ukraine would have been seen as an intrusion on the economic sovereignty of Germany.  This would have walked directly into Putin's trap of splitting the West.  Fundamentally, he needs that to be the case to continue his march west.  

And to what end?  Would Russia have not moved on the border?  Why wouldn't they?  You already played your card and sanctioned them.  Biden played this exactly right.  He allowed the Nord to move forward in the cert process (remember, the pipeline isn't on, and has never been on), so keeping Germany happy.  But as soon as Russia moved the troops, Germany announced with Biden that the cert would stop if they enter Ukraine.  Russia did last night and the certification has stopped.  

I've said this several times.. Russia needs to divide the west.  What he has done, because Biden played the cards right, is to unite the West.  

Agree somewhat.  I agree we didn’t want to mix things up with us and Getmany.  

 I think Biden got punked though. This is not a win in any way shape
or form.  A win would have been no invasion.  Biden didn’t know what to do, he had no plan and still doesn’t- it worked out the way it did because of his indecision. Putin didn’t even have to fire off a warning shot and he is now firmly in those two territories, simply by recognizing regions of Eastern Ukraine as autonomous, setting up the pretext to move troops over the border as a “peacekeeping force.”  That’s a big win for Putin, and pretty cunning for the KGB man we know and hate who got what he wanted in exchange for the cost nothing more than mobilizing his forces.  

Russia invaded Ukraine when Biden was VP and again once he was Pres.  Strange how someone over in Russia knows when the chances are high for success.

Once Putin takes a third of Ukraine Biden will take credit that it’s only a third.  Hey, at least they didn’t take the whole thing, right?!

meanwhile Taiwan better be getting its funds in order and buying arms and making plans for Japan to aid

How could Biden have prevented an invasion?

You would criticize him if he put troops on the border and also if he gave in to some demand from Putin that kept his troops out.

It's *almost* as if he's going to be criticized no matter what he does. 

Well the right wing is tripping over themselves to come up with a coherent criticism.  

1. Biden is too weak to stop Putin
2. Biden is a war monger
3. He should have cut off oil/gas sales
4. The price of gas is going to skyrocket
5. He should defend our borders 
6. Why do we care about Ukraine
7. China is going to take Taiwan now

Personally I’m annoyed that we aren’t more energy independent.  We should never have slashed the keystone xl.  

Gern Blansten

RoleModelsinBlood31 said:

mrussel1 said:

Merkin Baller said:

Gern Blansten said:

RoleModelsinBlood31 said:

mrussel1 said:

RoleModelsinBlood31 said:

mrussel1 said:

static111 said:

HughFreakingDillon said:

static111 said:

HughFreakingDillon said:

static111 said:

The defense industry doesn't pay itself.

I'm not entirely sure what is meant by this comment. 

After pulling out of Afghanistan our defense sector is a little adrift. Hopefully the sanctions work.  If not I see the machine trying to whip up the usual patriotic freedom talk fervor until we get to an acceptable level of public opinion to get our armed forces involved and get that defense cash machine cranking back up. 

but this isn't the US inventing a conflict to further their own agenda. this is all russia. should the world just stand idly by and let putin do whatever he wants?

from letter from an american
 "Putin and his fellow oligarchs have amassed power thanks to the financial laxness of western democracies, which their money has helped to destabilize. With Putin’s attack on the international rule of law today, challenging western nations to stop him, Edward Luce of the Financial Times identified the larger picture: “Cannot be stated strongly enough,” he wrote. “If the west—chiefly America, but also Britain—doesn't burn its financial ties to Russia's oligarchy then Putin will prevail. This means taking on Wall Street, the City, law firms[,] realtors, the prep schools and western laundering outfits.”"

This is one of the reasons I don't think anything will happen.  Regarding your question, should we stand Idly by?  I don't know, which action will cause more longterm worldwide harm for the greater part of humanity?  I wish I was a fortune teller.

The FT is right here, in that heavy sanctions against individuals is solution that harms Russia severely while keeping our troops off the front line.  Don't forget that Ukraine has a 450k person army that is fully mobilized.  Add that with teh NATO and US support, and Russia trying to take central and West Ukraine will be bloody business.  They may be able to penetrate, but they cannot hold it.  

Regarding the broader point, today:

1. Germany declared it will halt certification of Nord 2.  I said this a month ago, this was a genius play by Biden to mollify the Germans in letting it continue over the summer, and keeping the card in his pocket.  Now we have Germany united with us.  This is huge. 

2. EU council sanctioned 193 persons and 48 entities, including member of the Duma.  Their assets are frozen and cannot travel anywhere in the EU

3. And from the FT regarding sanctions being discussed and likely voted upon today by the EU:

The package discussed in a meeting of EU ambassadors was wider than some officials had expected. The proposals encompass restrictions on the refinancing of Russian government debt and on its central bank, as well as on about 350 members of the Russian Duma, and on individuals and businesses linked to Russian actions in the separatist regions, according to people familiar with the discussions.

I always love to read what you post, it’s super insightful.

I disagree though and feel that one of the big reasons we’ve gotten to where we are now with Russia and Ukraine was that Germany and Joe Biden indicated that they were just not serious when it came to Nord Stream 2.  

When Joe Biden waived sanctions on it back in May and Germany indicated they were willing to make themselves beholden to Russia for their energy, Vladimir Putin knew that he was being given a green light. He saw weakness and lack of resolve all over the place. 

Had Germany taken this move a week ago, it might have had an effect; it’s questionable what effect it will have now, with Putin’s action already underway and military vehicles and weaponry in place. This all started sliding because Joe Biden waived sanctions on the pipeline in May 2021 despite the U.S.’s long-term opposition to the pipeline. 

Biden made a succession of moves and remarks that emboldened Putin. But Putin also knew based on Barack Obama-Joe Biden’s prior response in 2014, that he would face weakness from Biden. The Democrats had the opportunity to cut the pipeline off once again when Sen. Ted Cruz (R-TX) called for a vote on sanctions last month.  

Instead of standing with U.S. interests and Ukraine, the Democrats not only stood with Putin but they went full-on hypocrite, using the filibuster rule, to kill Cruz’s bill.

I’m hoping this will have an affect, but I really think this is all too late.  Our discussed US sanctions so far have been to impose sanctions on the two territories, but not Russia?  Why is Biden so lax on laying down the hammer on Putin?  Why is he so content on waiting for other powers to do something g and then jump on board, instead of paving the way for serious sanctions?  I hope he blasts Putin where it hurts personally, and we’ll wait to see.

I disagree, here's why.  

Sanctioning or stopping the pipeline before Russia even made a move towards Ukraine would have been seen as an intrusion on the economic sovereignty of Germany.  This would have walked directly into Putin's trap of splitting the West.  Fundamentally, he needs that to be the case to continue his march west.  

And to what end?  Would Russia have not moved on the border?  Why wouldn't they?  You already played your card and sanctioned them.  Biden played this exactly right.  He allowed the Nord to move forward in the cert process (remember, the pipeline isn't on, and has never been on), so keeping Germany happy.  But as soon as Russia moved the troops, Germany announced with Biden that the cert would stop if they enter Ukraine.  Russia did last night and the certification has stopped.  

I've said this several times.. Russia needs to divide the west.  What he has done, because Biden played the cards right, is to unite the West.  

Agree somewhat.  I agree we didn’t want to mix things up with us and Getmany.  

 I think Biden got punked though. This is not a win in any way shape
or form.  A win would have been no invasion.  Biden didn’t know what to do, he had no plan and still doesn’t- it worked out the way it did because of his indecision. Putin didn’t even have to fire off a warning shot and he is now firmly in those two territories, simply by recognizing regions of Eastern Ukraine as autonomous, setting up the pretext to move troops over the border as a “peacekeeping force.”  That’s a big win for Putin, and pretty cunning for the KGB man we know and hate who got what he wanted in exchange for the cost nothing more than mobilizing his forces.  

Russia invaded Ukraine when Biden was VP and again once he was Pres.  Strange how someone over in Russia knows when the chances are high for success.

Once Putin takes a third of Ukraine Biden will take credit that it’s only a third.  Hey, at least they didn’t take the whole thing, right?!

meanwhile Taiwan better be getting its funds in order and buying arms and making plans for Japan to aid

How could Biden have prevented an invasion?

You would criticize him if he put troops on the border and also if he gave in to some demand from Putin that kept his troops out.

It's *almost* as if he's going to be criticized no matter what he does. 

Well the right wing is tripping over themselves to come up with a coherent criticism.  

1. Biden is too weak to stop Putin
2. Biden is a war monger
3. He should have cut off oil/gas sales
4. The price of gas is going to skyrocket
5. He should defend our borders 
6. Why do we care about Ukraine
7. China is going to take Taiwan now

Personally I’m annoyed that we aren’t more energy independent.  We should never have slashed the keystone xl.  

LOL...not our energy

mickeyrat

RoleModelsinBlood31 said:

mrussel1 said:

Merkin Baller said:

Gern Blansten said:

RoleModelsinBlood31 said:

mrussel1 said:

RoleModelsinBlood31 said:

mrussel1 said:

static111 said:

HughFreakingDillon said:

static111 said:

HughFreakingDillon said:

static111 said:

The defense industry doesn't pay itself.

I'm not entirely sure what is meant by this comment. 

After pulling out of Afghanistan our defense sector is a little adrift. Hopefully the sanctions work.  If not I see the machine trying to whip up the usual patriotic freedom talk fervor until we get to an acceptable level of public opinion to get our armed forces involved and get that defense cash machine cranking back up. 

but this isn't the US inventing a conflict to further their own agenda. this is all russia. should the world just stand idly by and let putin do whatever he wants?

from letter from an american
 "Putin and his fellow oligarchs have amassed power thanks to the financial laxness of western democracies, which their money has helped to destabilize. With Putin’s attack on the international rule of law today, challenging western nations to stop him, Edward Luce of the Financial Times identified the larger picture: “Cannot be stated strongly enough,” he wrote. “If the west—chiefly America, but also Britain—doesn't burn its financial ties to Russia's oligarchy then Putin will prevail. This means taking on Wall Street, the City, law firms[,] realtors, the prep schools and western laundering outfits.”"

This is one of the reasons I don't think anything will happen.  Regarding your question, should we stand Idly by?  I don't know, which action will cause more longterm worldwide harm for the greater part of humanity?  I wish I was a fortune teller.

The FT is right here, in that heavy sanctions against individuals is solution that harms Russia severely while keeping our troops off the front line.  Don't forget that Ukraine has a 450k person army that is fully mobilized.  Add that with teh NATO and US support, and Russia trying to take central and West Ukraine will be bloody business.  They may be able to penetrate, but they cannot hold it.  

Regarding the broader point, today:

1. Germany declared it will halt certification of Nord 2.  I said this a month ago, this was a genius play by Biden to mollify the Germans in letting it continue over the summer, and keeping the card in his pocket.  Now we have Germany united with us.  This is huge. 

2. EU council sanctioned 193 persons and 48 entities, including member of the Duma.  Their assets are frozen and cannot travel anywhere in the EU

3. And from the FT regarding sanctions being discussed and likely voted upon today by the EU:

The package discussed in a meeting of EU ambassadors was wider than some officials had expected. The proposals encompass restrictions on the refinancing of Russian government debt and on its central bank, as well as on about 350 members of the Russian Duma, and on individuals and businesses linked to Russian actions in the separatist regions, according to people familiar with the discussions.

I always love to read what you post, it’s super insightful.

I disagree though and feel that one of the big reasons we’ve gotten to where we are now with Russia and Ukraine was that Germany and Joe Biden indicated that they were just not serious when it came to Nord Stream 2.  

When Joe Biden waived sanctions on it back in May and Germany indicated they were willing to make themselves beholden to Russia for their energy, Vladimir Putin knew that he was being given a green light. He saw weakness and lack of resolve all over the place. 

Had Germany taken this move a week ago, it might have had an effect; it’s questionable what effect it will have now, with Putin’s action already underway and military vehicles and weaponry in place. This all started sliding because Joe Biden waived sanctions on the pipeline in May 2021 despite the U.S.’s long-term opposition to the pipeline. 

Biden made a succession of moves and remarks that emboldened Putin. But Putin also knew based on Barack Obama-Joe Biden’s prior response in 2014, that he would face weakness from Biden. The Democrats had the opportunity to cut the pipeline off once again when Sen. Ted Cruz (R-TX) called for a vote on sanctions last month.  

Instead of standing with U.S. interests and Ukraine, the Democrats not only stood with Putin but they went full-on hypocrite, using the filibuster rule, to kill Cruz’s bill.

I’m hoping this will have an affect, but I really think this is all too late.  Our discussed US sanctions so far have been to impose sanctions on the two territories, but not Russia?  Why is Biden so lax on laying down the hammer on Putin?  Why is he so content on waiting for other powers to do something g and then jump on board, instead of paving the way for serious sanctions?  I hope he blasts Putin where it hurts personally, and we’ll wait to see.

I disagree, here's why.  

Sanctioning or stopping the pipeline before Russia even made a move towards Ukraine would have been seen as an intrusion on the economic sovereignty of Germany.  This would have walked directly into Putin's trap of splitting the West.  Fundamentally, he needs that to be the case to continue his march west.  

And to what end?  Would Russia have not moved on the border?  Why wouldn't they?  You already played your card and sanctioned them.  Biden played this exactly right.  He allowed the Nord to move forward in the cert process (remember, the pipeline isn't on, and has never been on), so keeping Germany happy.  But as soon as Russia moved the troops, Germany announced with Biden that the cert would stop if they enter Ukraine.  Russia did last night and the certification has stopped.  

I've said this several times.. Russia needs to divide the west.  What he has done, because Biden played the cards right, is to unite the West.  

Agree somewhat.  I agree we didn’t want to mix things up with us and Getmany.  

 I think Biden got punked though. This is not a win in any way shape
or form.  A win would have been no invasion.  Biden didn’t know what to do, he had no plan and still doesn’t- it worked out the way it did because of his indecision. Putin didn’t even have to fire off a warning shot and he is now firmly in those two territories, simply by recognizing regions of Eastern Ukraine as autonomous, setting up the pretext to move troops over the border as a “peacekeeping force.”  That’s a big win for Putin, and pretty cunning for the KGB man we know and hate who got what he wanted in exchange for the cost nothing more than mobilizing his forces.  

Russia invaded Ukraine when Biden was VP and again once he was Pres.  Strange how someone over in Russia knows when the chances are high for success.

Once Putin takes a third of Ukraine Biden will take credit that it’s only a third.  Hey, at least they didn’t take the whole thing, right?!

meanwhile Taiwan better be getting its funds in order and buying arms and making plans for Japan to aid

How could Biden have prevented an invasion?

You would criticize him if he put troops on the border and also if he gave in to some demand from Putin that kept his troops out.

It's *almost* as if he's going to be criticized no matter what he does. 

Well the right wing is tripping over themselves to come up with a coherent criticism.  

1. Biden is too weak to stop Putin
2. Biden is a war monger
3. He should have cut off oil/gas sales
4. The price of gas is going to skyrocket
5. He should defend our borders 
6. Why do we care about Ukraine
7. China is going to take Taiwan now

Personally I’m annoyed that we aren’t more energy independent.  We should never have slashed the keystone xl.  

not our oil.

Spiritual_Chaos

RoleModelsinBlood31 said:

mrussel1 said:

Merkin Baller said:

Gern Blansten said:

RoleModelsinBlood31 said:

mrussel1 said:

RoleModelsinBlood31 said:

mrussel1 said:

static111 said:

HughFreakingDillon said:

static111 said:

HughFreakingDillon said:

static111 said:

The defense industry doesn't pay itself.

I'm not entirely sure what is meant by this comment. 

After pulling out of Afghanistan our defense sector is a little adrift. Hopefully the sanctions work.  If not I see the machine trying to whip up the usual patriotic freedom talk fervor until we get to an acceptable level of public opinion to get our armed forces involved and get that defense cash machine cranking back up. 

but this isn't the US inventing a conflict to further their own agenda. this is all russia. should the world just stand idly by and let putin do whatever he wants?

from letter from an american
 "Putin and his fellow oligarchs have amassed power thanks to the financial laxness of western democracies, which their money has helped to destabilize. With Putin’s attack on the international rule of law today, challenging western nations to stop him, Edward Luce of the Financial Times identified the larger picture: “Cannot be stated strongly enough,” he wrote. “If the west—chiefly America, but also Britain—doesn't burn its financial ties to Russia's oligarchy then Putin will prevail. This means taking on Wall Street, the City, law firms[,] realtors, the prep schools and western laundering outfits.”"

This is one of the reasons I don't think anything will happen.  Regarding your question, should we stand Idly by?  I don't know, which action will cause more longterm worldwide harm for the greater part of humanity?  I wish I was a fortune teller.

The FT is right here, in that heavy sanctions against individuals is solution that harms Russia severely while keeping our troops off the front line.  Don't forget that Ukraine has a 450k person army that is fully mobilized.  Add that with teh NATO and US support, and Russia trying to take central and West Ukraine will be bloody business.  They may be able to penetrate, but they cannot hold it.  

Regarding the broader point, today:

1. Germany declared it will halt certification of Nord 2.  I said this a month ago, this was a genius play by Biden to mollify the Germans in letting it continue over the summer, and keeping the card in his pocket.  Now we have Germany united with us.  This is huge. 

2. EU council sanctioned 193 persons and 48 entities, including member of the Duma.  Their assets are frozen and cannot travel anywhere in the EU

3. And from the FT regarding sanctions being discussed and likely voted upon today by the EU:

The package discussed in a meeting of EU ambassadors was wider than some officials had expected. The proposals encompass restrictions on the refinancing of Russian government debt and on its central bank, as well as on about 350 members of the Russian Duma, and on individuals and businesses linked to Russian actions in the separatist regions, according to people familiar with the discussions.

I always love to read what you post, it’s super insightful.

I disagree though and feel that one of the big reasons we’ve gotten to where we are now with Russia and Ukraine was that Germany and Joe Biden indicated that they were just not serious when it came to Nord Stream 2.  

When Joe Biden waived sanctions on it back in May and Germany indicated they were willing to make themselves beholden to Russia for their energy, Vladimir Putin knew that he was being given a green light. He saw weakness and lack of resolve all over the place. 

Had Germany taken this move a week ago, it might have had an effect; it’s questionable what effect it will have now, with Putin’s action already underway and military vehicles and weaponry in place. This all started sliding because Joe Biden waived sanctions on the pipeline in May 2021 despite the U.S.’s long-term opposition to the pipeline. 

Biden made a succession of moves and remarks that emboldened Putin. But Putin also knew based on Barack Obama-Joe Biden’s prior response in 2014, that he would face weakness from Biden. The Democrats had the opportunity to cut the pipeline off once again when Sen. Ted Cruz (R-TX) called for a vote on sanctions last month.  

Instead of standing with U.S. interests and Ukraine, the Democrats not only stood with Putin but they went full-on hypocrite, using the filibuster rule, to kill Cruz’s bill.

I’m hoping this will have an affect, but I really think this is all too late.  Our discussed US sanctions so far have been to impose sanctions on the two territories, but not Russia?  Why is Biden so lax on laying down the hammer on Putin?  Why is he so content on waiting for other powers to do something g and then jump on board, instead of paving the way for serious sanctions?  I hope he blasts Putin where it hurts personally, and we’ll wait to see.

I disagree, here's why.  

Sanctioning or stopping the pipeline before Russia even made a move towards Ukraine would have been seen as an intrusion on the economic sovereignty of Germany.  This would have walked directly into Putin's trap of splitting the West.  Fundamentally, he needs that to be the case to continue his march west.  

And to what end?  Would Russia have not moved on the border?  Why wouldn't they?  You already played your card and sanctioned them.  Biden played this exactly right.  He allowed the Nord to move forward in the cert process (remember, the pipeline isn't on, and has never been on), so keeping Germany happy.  But as soon as Russia moved the troops, Germany announced with Biden that the cert would stop if they enter Ukraine.  Russia did last night and the certification has stopped.  

I've said this several times.. Russia needs to divide the west.  What he has done, because Biden played the cards right, is to unite the West.  

Agree somewhat.  I agree we didn’t want to mix things up with us and Getmany.  

 I think Biden got punked though. This is not a win in any way shape
or form.  A win would have been no invasion.  Biden didn’t know what to do, he had no plan and still doesn’t- it worked out the way it did because of his indecision. Putin didn’t even have to fire off a warning shot and he is now firmly in those two territories, simply by recognizing regions of Eastern Ukraine as autonomous, setting up the pretext to move troops over the border as a “peacekeeping force.”  That’s a big win for Putin, and pretty cunning for the KGB man we know and hate who got what he wanted in exchange for the cost nothing more than mobilizing his forces.  

Russia invaded Ukraine when Biden was VP and again once he was Pres.  Strange how someone over in Russia knows when the chances are high for success.

Once Putin takes a third of Ukraine Biden will take credit that it’s only a third.  Hey, at least they didn’t take the whole thing, right?!

meanwhile Taiwan better be getting its funds in order and buying arms and making plans for Japan to aid

How could Biden have prevented an invasion?

You would criticize him if he put troops on the border and also if he gave in to some demand from Putin that kept his troops out.

It's *almost* as if he's going to be criticized no matter what he does. 

Well the right wing is tripping over themselves to come up with a coherent criticism.  

1. Biden is too weak to stop Putin
2. Biden is a war monger
3. He should have cut off oil/gas sales
4. The price of gas is going to skyrocket
5. He should defend our borders 
6. Why do we care about Ukraine
7. China is going to take Taiwan now

Personally I’m annoyed that we aren’t more energy independent.  We should never have slashed the keystone xl.  

Yikes

Jearlpam0925

lol ooof geez

mrussel1

RoleModelsinBlood31 said:

mrussel1 said:

Merkin Baller said:

Gern Blansten said:

RoleModelsinBlood31 said:

mrussel1 said:

RoleModelsinBlood31 said:

mrussel1 said:

static111 said:

HughFreakingDillon said:

static111 said:

HughFreakingDillon said:

static111 said:

The defense industry doesn't pay itself.

I'm not entirely sure what is meant by this comment. 

After pulling out of Afghanistan our defense sector is a little adrift. Hopefully the sanctions work.  If not I see the machine trying to whip up the usual patriotic freedom talk fervor until we get to an acceptable level of public opinion to get our armed forces involved and get that defense cash machine cranking back up. 

but this isn't the US inventing a conflict to further their own agenda. this is all russia. should the world just stand idly by and let putin do whatever he wants?

from letter from an american
 "Putin and his fellow oligarchs have amassed power thanks to the financial laxness of western democracies, which their money has helped to destabilize. With Putin’s attack on the international rule of law today, challenging western nations to stop him, Edward Luce of the Financial Times identified the larger picture: “Cannot be stated strongly enough,” he wrote. “If the west—chiefly America, but also Britain—doesn't burn its financial ties to Russia's oligarchy then Putin will prevail. This means taking on Wall Street, the City, law firms[,] realtors, the prep schools and western laundering outfits.”"

This is one of the reasons I don't think anything will happen.  Regarding your question, should we stand Idly by?  I don't know, which action will cause more longterm worldwide harm for the greater part of humanity?  I wish I was a fortune teller.

The FT is right here, in that heavy sanctions against individuals is solution that harms Russia severely while keeping our troops off the front line.  Don't forget that Ukraine has a 450k person army that is fully mobilized.  Add that with teh NATO and US support, and Russia trying to take central and West Ukraine will be bloody business.  They may be able to penetrate, but they cannot hold it.  

Regarding the broader point, today:

1. Germany declared it will halt certification of Nord 2.  I said this a month ago, this was a genius play by Biden to mollify the Germans in letting it continue over the summer, and keeping the card in his pocket.  Now we have Germany united with us.  This is huge. 

2. EU council sanctioned 193 persons and 48 entities, including member of the Duma.  Their assets are frozen and cannot travel anywhere in the EU

3. And from the FT regarding sanctions being discussed and likely voted upon today by the EU:

The package discussed in a meeting of EU ambassadors was wider than some officials had expected. The proposals encompass restrictions on the refinancing of Russian government debt and on its central bank, as well as on about 350 members of the Russian Duma, and on individuals and businesses linked to Russian actions in the separatist regions, according to people familiar with the discussions.

I always love to read what you post, it’s super insightful.

I disagree though and feel that one of the big reasons we’ve gotten to where we are now with Russia and Ukraine was that Germany and Joe Biden indicated that they were just not serious when it came to Nord Stream 2.  

When Joe Biden waived sanctions on it back in May and Germany indicated they were willing to make themselves beholden to Russia for their energy, Vladimir Putin knew that he was being given a green light. He saw weakness and lack of resolve all over the place. 

Had Germany taken this move a week ago, it might have had an effect; it’s questionable what effect it will have now, with Putin’s action already underway and military vehicles and weaponry in place. This all started sliding because Joe Biden waived sanctions on the pipeline in May 2021 despite the U.S.’s long-term opposition to the pipeline. 

Biden made a succession of moves and remarks that emboldened Putin. But Putin also knew based on Barack Obama-Joe Biden’s prior response in 2014, that he would face weakness from Biden. The Democrats had the opportunity to cut the pipeline off once again when Sen. Ted Cruz (R-TX) called for a vote on sanctions last month.  

Instead of standing with U.S. interests and Ukraine, the Democrats not only stood with Putin but they went full-on hypocrite, using the filibuster rule, to kill Cruz’s bill.

I’m hoping this will have an affect, but I really think this is all too late.  Our discussed US sanctions so far have been to impose sanctions on the two territories, but not Russia?  Why is Biden so lax on laying down the hammer on Putin?  Why is he so content on waiting for other powers to do something g and then jump on board, instead of paving the way for serious sanctions?  I hope he blasts Putin where it hurts personally, and we’ll wait to see.

I disagree, here's why.  

Sanctioning or stopping the pipeline before Russia even made a move towards Ukraine would have been seen as an intrusion on the economic sovereignty of Germany.  This would have walked directly into Putin's trap of splitting the West.  Fundamentally, he needs that to be the case to continue his march west.  

And to what end?  Would Russia have not moved on the border?  Why wouldn't they?  You already played your card and sanctioned them.  Biden played this exactly right.  He allowed the Nord to move forward in the cert process (remember, the pipeline isn't on, and has never been on), so keeping Germany happy.  But as soon as Russia moved the troops, Germany announced with Biden that the cert would stop if they enter Ukraine.  Russia did last night and the certification has stopped.  

I've said this several times.. Russia needs to divide the west.  What he has done, because Biden played the cards right, is to unite the West.  

Agree somewhat.  I agree we didn’t want to mix things up with us and Getmany.  

 I think Biden got punked though. This is not a win in any way shape
or form.  A win would have been no invasion.  Biden didn’t know what to do, he had no plan and still doesn’t- it worked out the way it did because of his indecision. Putin didn’t even have to fire off a warning shot and he is now firmly in those two territories, simply by recognizing regions of Eastern Ukraine as autonomous, setting up the pretext to move troops over the border as a “peacekeeping force.”  That’s a big win for Putin, and pretty cunning for the KGB man we know and hate who got what he wanted in exchange for the cost nothing more than mobilizing his forces.  

Russia invaded Ukraine when Biden was VP and again once he was Pres.  Strange how someone over in Russia knows when the chances are high for success.

Once Putin takes a third of Ukraine Biden will take credit that it’s only a third.  Hey, at least they didn’t take the whole thing, right?!

meanwhile Taiwan better be getting its funds in order and buying arms and making plans for Japan to aid

How could Biden have prevented an invasion?

You would criticize him if he put troops on the border and also if he gave in to some demand from Putin that kept his troops out.

It's *almost* as if he's going to be criticized no matter what he does. 

Well the right wing is tripping over themselves to come up with a coherent criticism.  

1. Biden is too weak to stop Putin
2. Biden is a war monger
3. He should have cut off oil/gas sales
4. The price of gas is going to skyrocket
5. He should defend our borders 
6. Why do we care about Ukraine
7. China is going to take Taiwan now

Personally I’m annoyed that we aren’t more energy independent.  We should never have slashed the keystone xl.  

These are red herrings.  There is absolutely nothing stopping US based oil producers from producing more oil.  Our wells aren't dry.  They chose to shut production down throughout 2020 because oil demand plummeted.  And they have not fully restarted all of these rigs and wells.  Keystone is a political issue, it has zero effect on our ability to produce oil today.  

Jearlpam0925

If anyone had earnest intentions to want a nation to be energy-independent then that person - and nation - should be going above and beyond in terms of source and infrastructure imo.

RoleModelsinBlood31

mickeyrat said:

RoleModelsinBlood31 said:

mrussel1 said:

Merkin Baller said:

Gern Blansten said:

RoleModelsinBlood31 said:

mrussel1 said:

RoleModelsinBlood31 said:

mrussel1 said:

static111 said:

HughFreakingDillon said:

static111 said:

HughFreakingDillon said:

static111 said:

The defense industry doesn't pay itself.

I'm not entirely sure what is meant by this comment. 

After pulling out of Afghanistan our defense sector is a little adrift. Hopefully the sanctions work.  If not I see the machine trying to whip up the usual patriotic freedom talk fervor until we get to an acceptable level of public opinion to get our armed forces involved and get that defense cash machine cranking back up. 

but this isn't the US inventing a conflict to further their own agenda. this is all russia. should the world just stand idly by and let putin do whatever he wants?

from letter from an american
 "Putin and his fellow oligarchs have amassed power thanks to the financial laxness of western democracies, which their money has helped to destabilize. With Putin’s attack on the international rule of law today, challenging western nations to stop him, Edward Luce of the Financial Times identified the larger picture: “Cannot be stated strongly enough,” he wrote. “If the west—chiefly America, but also Britain—doesn't burn its financial ties to Russia's oligarchy then Putin will prevail. This means taking on Wall Street, the City, law firms[,] realtors, the prep schools and western laundering outfits.”"

This is one of the reasons I don't think anything will happen.  Regarding your question, should we stand Idly by?  I don't know, which action will cause more longterm worldwide harm for the greater part of humanity?  I wish I was a fortune teller.

The FT is right here, in that heavy sanctions against individuals is solution that harms Russia severely while keeping our troops off the front line.  Don't forget that Ukraine has a 450k person army that is fully mobilized.  Add that with teh NATO and US support, and Russia trying to take central and West Ukraine will be bloody business.  They may be able to penetrate, but they cannot hold it.  

Regarding the broader point, today:

1. Germany declared it will halt certification of Nord 2.  I said this a month ago, this was a genius play by Biden to mollify the Germans in letting it continue over the summer, and keeping the card in his pocket.  Now we have Germany united with us.  This is huge. 

2. EU council sanctioned 193 persons and 48 entities, including member of the Duma.  Their assets are frozen and cannot travel anywhere in the EU

3. And from the FT regarding sanctions being discussed and likely voted upon today by the EU:

The package discussed in a meeting of EU ambassadors was wider than some officials had expected. The proposals encompass restrictions on the refinancing of Russian government debt and on its central bank, as well as on about 350 members of the Russian Duma, and on individuals and businesses linked to Russian actions in the separatist regions, according to people familiar with the discussions.

I always love to read what you post, it’s super insightful.

I disagree though and feel that one of the big reasons we’ve gotten to where we are now with Russia and Ukraine was that Germany and Joe Biden indicated that they were just not serious when it came to Nord Stream 2.  

When Joe Biden waived sanctions on it back in May and Germany indicated they were willing to make themselves beholden to Russia for their energy, Vladimir Putin knew that he was being given a green light. He saw weakness and lack of resolve all over the place. 

Had Germany taken this move a week ago, it might have had an effect; it’s questionable what effect it will have now, with Putin’s action already underway and military vehicles and weaponry in place. This all started sliding because Joe Biden waived sanctions on the pipeline in May 2021 despite the U.S.’s long-term opposition to the pipeline. 

Biden made a succession of moves and remarks that emboldened Putin. But Putin also knew based on Barack Obama-Joe Biden’s prior response in 2014, that he would face weakness from Biden. The Democrats had the opportunity to cut the pipeline off once again when Sen. Ted Cruz (R-TX) called for a vote on sanctions last month.  

Instead of standing with U.S. interests and Ukraine, the Democrats not only stood with Putin but they went full-on hypocrite, using the filibuster rule, to kill Cruz’s bill.

I’m hoping this will have an affect, but I really think this is all too late.  Our discussed US sanctions so far have been to impose sanctions on the two territories, but not Russia?  Why is Biden so lax on laying down the hammer on Putin?  Why is he so content on waiting for other powers to do something g and then jump on board, instead of paving the way for serious sanctions?  I hope he blasts Putin where it hurts personally, and we’ll wait to see.

I disagree, here's why.  

Sanctioning or stopping the pipeline before Russia even made a move towards Ukraine would have been seen as an intrusion on the economic sovereignty of Germany.  This would have walked directly into Putin's trap of splitting the West.  Fundamentally, he needs that to be the case to continue his march west.  

And to what end?  Would Russia have not moved on the border?  Why wouldn't they?  You already played your card and sanctioned them.  Biden played this exactly right.  He allowed the Nord to move forward in the cert process (remember, the pipeline isn't on, and has never been on), so keeping Germany happy.  But as soon as Russia moved the troops, Germany announced with Biden that the cert would stop if they enter Ukraine.  Russia did last night and the certification has stopped.  

I've said this several times.. Russia needs to divide the west.  What he has done, because Biden played the cards right, is to unite the West.  

Agree somewhat.  I agree we didn’t want to mix things up with us and Getmany.  

 I think Biden got punked though. This is not a win in any way shape
or form.  A win would have been no invasion.  Biden didn’t know what to do, he had no plan and still doesn’t- it worked out the way it did because of his indecision. Putin didn’t even have to fire off a warning shot and he is now firmly in those two territories, simply by recognizing regions of Eastern Ukraine as autonomous, setting up the pretext to move troops over the border as a “peacekeeping force.”  That’s a big win for Putin, and pretty cunning for the KGB man we know and hate who got what he wanted in exchange for the cost nothing more than mobilizing his forces.  

Russia invaded Ukraine when Biden was VP and again once he was Pres.  Strange how someone over in Russia knows when the chances are high for success.

Once Putin takes a third of Ukraine Biden will take credit that it’s only a third.  Hey, at least they didn’t take the whole thing, right?!

meanwhile Taiwan better be getting its funds in order and buying arms and making plans for Japan to aid

How could Biden have prevented an invasion?

You would criticize him if he put troops on the border and also if he gave in to some demand from Putin that kept his troops out.

It's *almost* as if he's going to be criticized no matter what he does. 

Well the right wing is tripping over themselves to come up with a coherent criticism.  

1. Biden is too weak to stop Putin
2. Biden is a war monger
3. He should have cut off oil/gas sales
4. The price of gas is going to skyrocket
5. He should defend our borders 
6. Why do we care about Ukraine
7. China is going to take Taiwan now

Personally I’m annoyed that we aren’t more energy independent.  We should never have slashed the keystone xl.  

not our oil.

Obviously and that’s not what I had said (not sure why that matters, it ran from Alberta I think? To Texas) but it would have seriously contributed to our energy supplies

RoleModelsinBlood31

Gern Blansten said:

RoleModelsinBlood31 said:

mrussel1 said:

Merkin Baller said:

Gern Blansten said:

RoleModelsinBlood31 said:

mrussel1 said:

RoleModelsinBlood31 said:

mrussel1 said:

static111 said:

HughFreakingDillon said:

static111 said:

HughFreakingDillon said:

static111 said:

The defense industry doesn't pay itself.

I'm not entirely sure what is meant by this comment. 

After pulling out of Afghanistan our defense sector is a little adrift. Hopefully the sanctions work.  If not I see the machine trying to whip up the usual patriotic freedom talk fervor until we get to an acceptable level of public opinion to get our armed forces involved and get that defense cash machine cranking back up. 

but this isn't the US inventing a conflict to further their own agenda. this is all russia. should the world just stand idly by and let putin do whatever he wants?

from letter from an american
 "Putin and his fellow oligarchs have amassed power thanks to the financial laxness of western democracies, which their money has helped to destabilize. With Putin’s attack on the international rule of law today, challenging western nations to stop him, Edward Luce of the Financial Times identified the larger picture: “Cannot be stated strongly enough,” he wrote. “If the west—chiefly America, but also Britain—doesn't burn its financial ties to Russia's oligarchy then Putin will prevail. This means taking on Wall Street, the City, law firms[,] realtors, the prep schools and western laundering outfits.”"

This is one of the reasons I don't think anything will happen.  Regarding your question, should we stand Idly by?  I don't know, which action will cause more longterm worldwide harm for the greater part of humanity?  I wish I was a fortune teller.

The FT is right here, in that heavy sanctions against individuals is solution that harms Russia severely while keeping our troops off the front line.  Don't forget that Ukraine has a 450k person army that is fully mobilized.  Add that with teh NATO and US support, and Russia trying to take central and West Ukraine will be bloody business.  They may be able to penetrate, but they cannot hold it.  

Regarding the broader point, today:

1. Germany declared it will halt certification of Nord 2.  I said this a month ago, this was a genius play by Biden to mollify the Germans in letting it continue over the summer, and keeping the card in his pocket.  Now we have Germany united with us.  This is huge. 

2. EU council sanctioned 193 persons and 48 entities, including member of the Duma.  Their assets are frozen and cannot travel anywhere in the EU

3. And from the FT regarding sanctions being discussed and likely voted upon today by the EU:

The package discussed in a meeting of EU ambassadors was wider than some officials had expected. The proposals encompass restrictions on the refinancing of Russian government debt and on its central bank, as well as on about 350 members of the Russian Duma, and on individuals and businesses linked to Russian actions in the separatist regions, according to people familiar with the discussions.

I always love to read what you post, it’s super insightful.

I disagree though and feel that one of the big reasons we’ve gotten to where we are now with Russia and Ukraine was that Germany and Joe Biden indicated that they were just not serious when it came to Nord Stream 2.  

When Joe Biden waived sanctions on it back in May and Germany indicated they were willing to make themselves beholden to Russia for their energy, Vladimir Putin knew that he was being given a green light. He saw weakness and lack of resolve all over the place. 

Had Germany taken this move a week ago, it might have had an effect; it’s questionable what effect it will have now, with Putin’s action already underway and military vehicles and weaponry in place. This all started sliding because Joe Biden waived sanctions on the pipeline in May 2021 despite the U.S.’s long-term opposition to the pipeline. 

Biden made a succession of moves and remarks that emboldened Putin. But Putin also knew based on Barack Obama-Joe Biden’s prior response in 2014, that he would face weakness from Biden. The Democrats had the opportunity to cut the pipeline off once again when Sen. Ted Cruz (R-TX) called for a vote on sanctions last month.  

Instead of standing with U.S. interests and Ukraine, the Democrats not only stood with Putin but they went full-on hypocrite, using the filibuster rule, to kill Cruz’s bill.

I’m hoping this will have an affect, but I really think this is all too late.  Our discussed US sanctions so far have been to impose sanctions on the two territories, but not Russia?  Why is Biden so lax on laying down the hammer on Putin?  Why is he so content on waiting for other powers to do something g and then jump on board, instead of paving the way for serious sanctions?  I hope he blasts Putin where it hurts personally, and we’ll wait to see.

I disagree, here's why.  

Sanctioning or stopping the pipeline before Russia even made a move towards Ukraine would have been seen as an intrusion on the economic sovereignty of Germany.  This would have walked directly into Putin's trap of splitting the West.  Fundamentally, he needs that to be the case to continue his march west.  

And to what end?  Would Russia have not moved on the border?  Why wouldn't they?  You already played your card and sanctioned them.  Biden played this exactly right.  He allowed the Nord to move forward in the cert process (remember, the pipeline isn't on, and has never been on), so keeping Germany happy.  But as soon as Russia moved the troops, Germany announced with Biden that the cert would stop if they enter Ukraine.  Russia did last night and the certification has stopped.  

I've said this several times.. Russia needs to divide the west.  What he has done, because Biden played the cards right, is to unite the West.  

Agree somewhat.  I agree we didn’t want to mix things up with us and Getmany.  

 I think Biden got punked though. This is not a win in any way shape
or form.  A win would have been no invasion.  Biden didn’t know what to do, he had no plan and still doesn’t- it worked out the way it did because of his indecision. Putin didn’t even have to fire off a warning shot and he is now firmly in those two territories, simply by recognizing regions of Eastern Ukraine as autonomous, setting up the pretext to move troops over the border as a “peacekeeping force.”  That’s a big win for Putin, and pretty cunning for the KGB man we know and hate who got what he wanted in exchange for the cost nothing more than mobilizing his forces.  

Russia invaded Ukraine when Biden was VP and again once he was Pres.  Strange how someone over in Russia knows when the chances are high for success.

Once Putin takes a third of Ukraine Biden will take credit that it’s only a third.  Hey, at least they didn’t take the whole thing, right?!

meanwhile Taiwan better be getting its funds in order and buying arms and making plans for Japan to aid

How could Biden have prevented an invasion?

You would criticize him if he put troops on the border and also if he gave in to some demand from Putin that kept his troops out.

It's *almost* as if he's going to be criticized no matter what he does. 

Well the right wing is tripping over themselves to come up with a coherent criticism.  

1. Biden is too weak to stop Putin
2. Biden is a war monger
3. He should have cut off oil/gas sales
4. The price of gas is going to skyrocket
5. He should defend our borders 
6. Why do we care about Ukraine
7. China is going to take Taiwan now

Personally I’m annoyed that we aren’t more energy independent.  We should never have slashed the keystone xl.  

LOL...not our energy

Lol? Why? 

mrussel1

RoleModelsinBlood31 said:

mickeyrat said:

RoleModelsinBlood31 said:

mrussel1 said:

Merkin Baller said:

Gern Blansten said:

RoleModelsinBlood31 said:

mrussel1 said:

RoleModelsinBlood31 said:

mrussel1 said:

static111 said:

HughFreakingDillon said:

static111 said:

HughFreakingDillon said:

static111 said:

The defense industry doesn't pay itself.

I'm not entirely sure what is meant by this comment. 

After pulling out of Afghanistan our defense sector is a little adrift. Hopefully the sanctions work.  If not I see the machine trying to whip up the usual patriotic freedom talk fervor until we get to an acceptable level of public opinion to get our armed forces involved and get that defense cash machine cranking back up. 

but this isn't the US inventing a conflict to further their own agenda. this is all russia. should the world just stand idly by and let putin do whatever he wants?

from letter from an american
 "Putin and his fellow oligarchs have amassed power thanks to the financial laxness of western democracies, which their money has helped to destabilize. With Putin’s attack on the international rule of law today, challenging western nations to stop him, Edward Luce of the Financial Times identified the larger picture: “Cannot be stated strongly enough,” he wrote. “If the west—chiefly America, but also Britain—doesn't burn its financial ties to Russia's oligarchy then Putin will prevail. This means taking on Wall Street, the City, law firms[,] realtors, the prep schools and western laundering outfits.”"

This is one of the reasons I don't think anything will happen.  Regarding your question, should we stand Idly by?  I don't know, which action will cause more longterm worldwide harm for the greater part of humanity?  I wish I was a fortune teller.

The FT is right here, in that heavy sanctions against individuals is solution that harms Russia severely while keeping our troops off the front line.  Don't forget that Ukraine has a 450k person army that is fully mobilized.  Add that with teh NATO and US support, and Russia trying to take central and West Ukraine will be bloody business.  They may be able to penetrate, but they cannot hold it.  

Regarding the broader point, today:

1. Germany declared it will halt certification of Nord 2.  I said this a month ago, this was a genius play by Biden to mollify the Germans in letting it continue over the summer, and keeping the card in his pocket.  Now we have Germany united with us.  This is huge. 

2. EU council sanctioned 193 persons and 48 entities, including member of the Duma.  Their assets are frozen and cannot travel anywhere in the EU

3. And from the FT regarding sanctions being discussed and likely voted upon today by the EU:

The package discussed in a meeting of EU ambassadors was wider than some officials had expected. The proposals encompass restrictions on the refinancing of Russian government debt and on its central bank, as well as on about 350 members of the Russian Duma, and on individuals and businesses linked to Russian actions in the separatist regions, according to people familiar with the discussions.

I always love to read what you post, it’s super insightful.

I disagree though and feel that one of the big reasons we’ve gotten to where we are now with Russia and Ukraine was that Germany and Joe Biden indicated that they were just not serious when it came to Nord Stream 2.  

When Joe Biden waived sanctions on it back in May and Germany indicated they were willing to make themselves beholden to Russia for their energy, Vladimir Putin knew that he was being given a green light. He saw weakness and lack of resolve all over the place. 

Had Germany taken this move a week ago, it might have had an effect; it’s questionable what effect it will have now, with Putin’s action already underway and military vehicles and weaponry in place. This all started sliding because Joe Biden waived sanctions on the pipeline in May 2021 despite the U.S.’s long-term opposition to the pipeline. 

Biden made a succession of moves and remarks that emboldened Putin. But Putin also knew based on Barack Obama-Joe Biden’s prior response in 2014, that he would face weakness from Biden. The Democrats had the opportunity to cut the pipeline off once again when Sen. Ted Cruz (R-TX) called for a vote on sanctions last month.  

Instead of standing with U.S. interests and Ukraine, the Democrats not only stood with Putin but they went full-on hypocrite, using the filibuster rule, to kill Cruz’s bill.

I’m hoping this will have an affect, but I really think this is all too late.  Our discussed US sanctions so far have been to impose sanctions on the two territories, but not Russia?  Why is Biden so lax on laying down the hammer on Putin?  Why is he so content on waiting for other powers to do something g and then jump on board, instead of paving the way for serious sanctions?  I hope he blasts Putin where it hurts personally, and we’ll wait to see.

I disagree, here's why.  

Sanctioning or stopping the pipeline before Russia even made a move towards Ukraine would have been seen as an intrusion on the economic sovereignty of Germany.  This would have walked directly into Putin's trap of splitting the West.  Fundamentally, he needs that to be the case to continue his march west.  

And to what end?  Would Russia have not moved on the border?  Why wouldn't they?  You already played your card and sanctioned them.  Biden played this exactly right.  He allowed the Nord to move forward in the cert process (remember, the pipeline isn't on, and has never been on), so keeping Germany happy.  But as soon as Russia moved the troops, Germany announced with Biden that the cert would stop if they enter Ukraine.  Russia did last night and the certification has stopped.  

I've said this several times.. Russia needs to divide the west.  What he has done, because Biden played the cards right, is to unite the West.  

Agree somewhat.  I agree we didn’t want to mix things up with us and Getmany.  

 I think Biden got punked though. This is not a win in any way shape
or form.  A win would have been no invasion.  Biden didn’t know what to do, he had no plan and still doesn’t- it worked out the way it did because of his indecision. Putin didn’t even have to fire off a warning shot and he is now firmly in those two territories, simply by recognizing regions of Eastern Ukraine as autonomous, setting up the pretext to move troops over the border as a “peacekeeping force.”  That’s a big win for Putin, and pretty cunning for the KGB man we know and hate who got what he wanted in exchange for the cost nothing more than mobilizing his forces.  

Russia invaded Ukraine when Biden was VP and again once he was Pres.  Strange how someone over in Russia knows when the chances are high for success.

Once Putin takes a third of Ukraine Biden will take credit that it’s only a third.  Hey, at least they didn’t take the whole thing, right?!

meanwhile Taiwan better be getting its funds in order and buying arms and making plans for Japan to aid

How could Biden have prevented an invasion?

You would criticize him if he put troops on the border and also if he gave in to some demand from Putin that kept his troops out.

It's *almost* as if he's going to be criticized no matter what he does. 

Well the right wing is tripping over themselves to come up with a coherent criticism.  

1. Biden is too weak to stop Putin
2. Biden is a war monger
3. He should have cut off oil/gas sales
4. The price of gas is going to skyrocket
5. He should defend our borders 
6. Why do we care about Ukraine
7. China is going to take Taiwan now

Personally I’m annoyed that we aren’t more energy independent.  We should never have slashed the keystone xl.  

not our oil.

Obviously and that’s not what I had said (not sure why that matters, it ran from Alberta I think? To Texas) but it would have seriously contributed to our energy supplies

I typed above, but you probably missed it.  There is nothing stopping US oil producers from producing more oil.  They shut down rigs and wells throughout 20/21 because the demand plummeted.  The supply issue is not governmental. 

mace1229

Bentleyspop said:

Remember when RUssia was the enemy?

Now the QtRUmplicans led by the likes of the former guy and tuQer Qarlson are tripping all over themselves to defend RUssia and denigrate President Joe Biden.

ZWho is defending Russia in this? I haven’t heard a single person anywhere, outside of Russia, defend Russia

RoleModelsinBlood31

mrussel1 said:

RoleModelsinBlood31 said:

mrussel1 said:

Merkin Baller said:

Gern Blansten said:

RoleModelsinBlood31 said:

mrussel1 said:

RoleModelsinBlood31 said:

mrussel1 said:

static111 said:

HughFreakingDillon said:

static111 said:

HughFreakingDillon said:

static111 said:

The defense industry doesn't pay itself.

I'm not entirely sure what is meant by this comment. 

After pulling out of Afghanistan our defense sector is a little adrift. Hopefully the sanctions work.  If not I see the machine trying to whip up the usual patriotic freedom talk fervor until we get to an acceptable level of public opinion to get our armed forces involved and get that defense cash machine cranking back up. 

but this isn't the US inventing a conflict to further their own agenda. this is all russia. should the world just stand idly by and let putin do whatever he wants?

from letter from an american
 "Putin and his fellow oligarchs have amassed power thanks to the financial laxness of western democracies, which their money has helped to destabilize. With Putin’s attack on the international rule of law today, challenging western nations to stop him, Edward Luce of the Financial Times identified the larger picture: “Cannot be stated strongly enough,” he wrote. “If the west—chiefly America, but also Britain—doesn't burn its financial ties to Russia's oligarchy then Putin will prevail. This means taking on Wall Street, the City, law firms[,] realtors, the prep schools and western laundering outfits.”"

This is one of the reasons I don't think anything will happen.  Regarding your question, should we stand Idly by?  I don't know, which action will cause more longterm worldwide harm for the greater part of humanity?  I wish I was a fortune teller.

The FT is right here, in that heavy sanctions against individuals is solution that harms Russia severely while keeping our troops off the front line.  Don't forget that Ukraine has a 450k person army that is fully mobilized.  Add that with teh NATO and US support, and Russia trying to take central and West Ukraine will be bloody business.  They may be able to penetrate, but they cannot hold it.  

Regarding the broader point, today:

1. Germany declared it will halt certification of Nord 2.  I said this a month ago, this was a genius play by Biden to mollify the Germans in letting it continue over the summer, and keeping the card in his pocket.  Now we have Germany united with us.  This is huge. 

2. EU council sanctioned 193 persons and 48 entities, including member of the Duma.  Their assets are frozen and cannot travel anywhere in the EU

3. And from the FT regarding sanctions being discussed and likely voted upon today by the EU:

The package discussed in a meeting of EU ambassadors was wider than some officials had expected. The proposals encompass restrictions on the refinancing of Russian government debt and on its central bank, as well as on about 350 members of the Russian Duma, and on individuals and businesses linked to Russian actions in the separatist regions, according to people familiar with the discussions.

I always love to read what you post, it’s super insightful.

I disagree though and feel that one of the big reasons we’ve gotten to where we are now with Russia and Ukraine was that Germany and Joe Biden indicated that they were just not serious when it came to Nord Stream 2.  

When Joe Biden waived sanctions on it back in May and Germany indicated they were willing to make themselves beholden to Russia for their energy, Vladimir Putin knew that he was being given a green light. He saw weakness and lack of resolve all over the place. 

Had Germany taken this move a week ago, it might have had an effect; it’s questionable what effect it will have now, with Putin’s action already underway and military vehicles and weaponry in place. This all started sliding because Joe Biden waived sanctions on the pipeline in May 2021 despite the U.S.’s long-term opposition to the pipeline. 

Biden made a succession of moves and remarks that emboldened Putin. But Putin also knew based on Barack Obama-Joe Biden’s prior response in 2014, that he would face weakness from Biden. The Democrats had the opportunity to cut the pipeline off once again when Sen. Ted Cruz (R-TX) called for a vote on sanctions last month.  

Instead of standing with U.S. interests and Ukraine, the Democrats not only stood with Putin but they went full-on hypocrite, using the filibuster rule, to kill Cruz’s bill.

I’m hoping this will have an affect, but I really think this is all too late.  Our discussed US sanctions so far have been to impose sanctions on the two territories, but not Russia?  Why is Biden so lax on laying down the hammer on Putin?  Why is he so content on waiting for other powers to do something g and then jump on board, instead of paving the way for serious sanctions?  I hope he blasts Putin where it hurts personally, and we’ll wait to see.

I disagree, here's why.  

Sanctioning or stopping the pipeline before Russia even made a move towards Ukraine would have been seen as an intrusion on the economic sovereignty of Germany.  This would have walked directly into Putin's trap of splitting the West.  Fundamentally, he needs that to be the case to continue his march west.  

And to what end?  Would Russia have not moved on the border?  Why wouldn't they?  You already played your card and sanctioned them.  Biden played this exactly right.  He allowed the Nord to move forward in the cert process (remember, the pipeline isn't on, and has never been on), so keeping Germany happy.  But as soon as Russia moved the troops, Germany announced with Biden that the cert would stop if they enter Ukraine.  Russia did last night and the certification has stopped.  

I've said this several times.. Russia needs to divide the west.  What he has done, because Biden played the cards right, is to unite the West.  

Agree somewhat.  I agree we didn’t want to mix things up with us and Getmany.  

 I think Biden got punked though. This is not a win in any way shape
or form.  A win would have been no invasion.  Biden didn’t know what to do, he had no plan and still doesn’t- it worked out the way it did because of his indecision. Putin didn’t even have to fire off a warning shot and he is now firmly in those two territories, simply by recognizing regions of Eastern Ukraine as autonomous, setting up the pretext to move troops over the border as a “peacekeeping force.”  That’s a big win for Putin, and pretty cunning for the KGB man we know and hate who got what he wanted in exchange for the cost nothing more than mobilizing his forces.  

Russia invaded Ukraine when Biden was VP and again once he was Pres.  Strange how someone over in Russia knows when the chances are high for success.

Once Putin takes a third of Ukraine Biden will take credit that it’s only a third.  Hey, at least they didn’t take the whole thing, right?!

meanwhile Taiwan better be getting its funds in order and buying arms and making plans for Japan to aid

How could Biden have prevented an invasion?

You would criticize him if he put troops on the border and also if he gave in to some demand from Putin that kept his troops out.

It's *almost* as if he's going to be criticized no matter what he does. 

Well the right wing is tripping over themselves to come up with a coherent criticism.  

1. Biden is too weak to stop Putin
2. Biden is a war monger
3. He should have cut off oil/gas sales
4. The price of gas is going to skyrocket
5. He should defend our borders 
6. Why do we care about Ukraine
7. China is going to take Taiwan now

Personally I’m annoyed that we aren’t more energy independent.  We should never have slashed the keystone xl.  

These are red herrings.  There is absolutely nothing stopping US based oil producers from producing more oil.  Our wells aren't dry.  They chose to shut production down throughout 2020 because oil demand plummeted.  And they have not fully restarted all of these rigs and wells.  Keystone is a political issue, it has zero effect on our ability to produce oil today.  

Sure it does, aren’t they all
political? You don’t think the left would shut down attempts (by the right of course because the left won’t do it) to dig?