Ukraine

mrussel1

Spiritual_Chaos said:

mrussel1 said:

He has, however, come out against Russia's invasion, 

I do wonder if that was more about sticking a finger up in the air and see how the wind blows just before the election. Let's see how he acts now when he is safe for a few years. 

But having a strong European cooperation, would be important for Hungary too.

But I do not know Orban or Hungarian politics. So, that might be completely baseless. 

I've heard Budapest is beautiful though.

There's no doubt what you say about Orban with the finger, is what happened.  HIs politics are conservative, Christian and nationalistic.  

Lerxst1992

 yes the Bush invasion of Iraq was horrible any many innocents were killed. A case can be made that Saddam was a war criminal, and it wasn’t absurd to believe he had WMDs considering his history. And he supported terrorism. Iraq was also not a democracy.

As much as I disliked  congress for approving that war, it’s hardly comparable to Putins invasion of a peaceful democracy. Zelenskyy has done nothing at all similar to what Saddam did.

Spiritual_Chaos

Lerxst1992 said:

 yes the Bush invasion of Iraq was horrible any many innocents were killed. A case can be made that Saddam was a war criminal, and it wasn’t absurd to believe he had WMDs considering his history. And he supported terrorism. Iraq was also not a democracy.

As much as I disliked  congress for approving that war, it’s hardly comparable to Putins invasion of a peaceful democracy. Zelenskyy has done nothing at all similar to what Saddam did.

It is very much comparable. 

A case can also be made that Saddam beat his wife, wore a mustache or had the gall to refuse McDonalds. Build up your pile of arguments for an unjust invasion against the UN and the Global community's opinion all you want. 

Shitty-US and shitty-Russia both invaded another country "just because" and didn't give two fuck about doing it, because of their bully-status in the world. And they both slaughtered civilians enough that they both should have been, or should be sanctioned and stand trial at the Hauge for their shittiness.

Be of the the opinion that Russia is more of a shitty country. Fine. Who wouldn't agree with that? Doesn't matter --  It is still comparable. Maybe not for some Americans still wanting in 2022 to shoehorn WMD:s into the argument-pile on a rockbands message board: 

"There were about 700 inspections, and in no case did we find weapons of mass destruction," said Hans Blix, the Swedish diplomat called out of retirement to serve as the United Nations' chief weapons inspector from 2000 to 2003; from 1981 to 1997 he headed the International Atomic Energy Agency.

Notice Hans Blix being swedish.

mrussel1

Spiritual_Chaos said:

Lerxst1992 said:

 yes the Bush invasion of Iraq was horrible any many innocents were killed. A case can be made that Saddam was a war criminal, and it wasn’t absurd to believe he had WMDs considering his history. And he supported terrorism. Iraq was also not a democracy.

As much as I disliked  congress for approving that war, it’s hardly comparable to Putins invasion of a peaceful democracy. Zelenskyy has done nothing at all similar to what Saddam did.

It is very much comparable. 

A case can also be made that Saddam beat his wife, wore a mustache or had the gall to refuse McDonalds. Build up your pile of arguments for an unjust invasion against the UN and the Global community's opinion all you want. 

Shitty-US and shitty-Russia both invaded another country "just because" and didn't give two fuck about doing it, because of their bully-status in the world. And they both slaughtered civilians enough that they both should have been, or should be sanctioned and stand trial at the Hauge for their shittiness.

Be of the the opinion that Russia is more of a shitty country. Fine. Who wouldn't agree with that? Doesn't matter --  It is still comparable. Maybe not for some Americans still wanting in 2022 to shoehorn WMD:s into the argument-pile on a rockbands message board: 

"There were about 700 inspections, and in no case did we find weapons of mass destruction," said Hans Blix, the Swedish diplomat called out of retirement to serve as the United Nations' chief weapons inspector from 2000 to 2003; from 1981 to 1997 he headed the International Atomic Energy Agency.

Notice Hans Blix being swedish.

There's zero doubt that the US Gov't, under Bush/Cheney, manipulated the intelligence to find what they wanted to believe.  Hans Blix and Ritter were emphatic leading up to the invasion that there were no active WMD development. Now some people say that was was about oil, first and foremost.  I don't know if that's true or not.  In 1998, the Project for a New American Century penned an open letter to Clinton advocating for the invasion of Iraq, to make the region safe for Israel, secure resources, and stop containment policies.  If you look at who signed the letter, it's full of future Bush admin senior people:  Abrams, Woolsey, Wolfowitz, Pearl, Rumsfeld, Kristol, even Jeb Bush.  They understood that 9/11 made Americans vengeful and were more likely to support this war.  They were right.

https://www.noi.org/wp-content/uploads/2016/01/iraqclintonletter1998-01-26-Copy.pdf

Halifax2TheMax

For anyone who wants to wade through the arguments for a first time or again.

My biggest peeve regarding Obama was that he didn’t appoint a bi-partisan committee or a special counsel to investigate whether any US laws were broken on the run up and “selling” of the war to the US population. Before there was buh, buh, buh her emails there were 44 million emails that went “poof” into the night. And I would argue that this lack of accountability and a reckoning contributed to 1/6 and a further erosion of ‘Murican Democracy.

https://community.pearljam.com/discussion/244580/knowing-what-you-know-now-would-you-still-support-the-withdrawal-of-troops-from-iraq/p22

HughFreakingDillon

Halifax2TheMax said:

For anyone who wants to wade through the arguments for a first time or again.

My biggest peeve regarding Obama was that he didn’t appoint a bi-partisan committee or a special counsel to investigate whether any US laws were broken on the run up and “selling” of the war to the US population. Before there was buh, buh, buh her emails there were 44 million emails that went “poof” into the night. And I would argue that this lack of accountability and a reckoning contributed to 1/6 and a further erosion of ‘Murican Democracy.

https://community.pearljam.com/discussion/244580/knowing-what-you-know-now-would-you-still-support-the-withdrawal-of-troops-from-iraq/p22

how could he justify a committee to investigate a war he was actively engaged in? isn't that something you do once the war is over?

Halifax2TheMax

HughFreakingDillon said:

Halifax2TheMax said:

For anyone who wants to wade through the arguments for a first time or again.

My biggest peeve regarding Obama was that he didn’t appoint a bi-partisan committee or a special counsel to investigate whether any US laws were broken on the run up and “selling” of the war to the US population. Before there was buh, buh, buh her emails there were 44 million emails that went “poof” into the night. And I would argue that this lack of accountability and a reckoning contributed to 1/6 and a further erosion of ‘Murican Democracy.

https://community.pearljam.com/discussion/244580/knowing-what-you-know-now-would-you-still-support-the-withdrawal-of-troops-from-iraq/p22

how could he justify a committee to investigate a war he was actively engaged in? isn't that something you do once the war is over?

Obama didn’t start it and voted against it as a senator. He could have appointed a bipartisan blue ribbon commission to investigate the run up to the war, of which he had no involvement. The commission could have taken testimony, under oath, been granted subpoena power for documents, issued a report and made criminal referrals if the body of evidence indicated laws were broken. That he just said, “we need to move on,” indicated there are no consequences for those at the highest pinnacle of power. Darth Cheney, Rummy, wolfowitz and Turd Blossom should have been held to account.

HughFreakingDillon

Halifax2TheMax said:

HughFreakingDillon said:

Halifax2TheMax said:

For anyone who wants to wade through the arguments for a first time or again.

My biggest peeve regarding Obama was that he didn’t appoint a bi-partisan committee or a special counsel to investigate whether any US laws were broken on the run up and “selling” of the war to the US population. Before there was buh, buh, buh her emails there were 44 million emails that went “poof” into the night. And I would argue that this lack of accountability and a reckoning contributed to 1/6 and a further erosion of ‘Murican Democracy.

https://community.pearljam.com/discussion/244580/knowing-what-you-know-now-would-you-still-support-the-withdrawal-of-troops-from-iraq/p22

how could he justify a committee to investigate a war he was actively engaged in? isn't that something you do once the war is over?

Obama didn’t start it and voted against it as a senator. He could have appointed a bipartisan blue ribbon commission to investigate the run up to the war, of which he had no involvement. The commission could have taken testimony, under oath, been granted subpoena power for documents, issued a report and made criminal referrals if the body of evidence indicated laws were broken. That he just said, “we need to move on,” indicated there are no consequences for those at the highest pinnacle of power. Darth Cheney, Rummy, wolfowitz and Turd Blossom should have been held to account.

but what does that do to morale on the ground where you have lives at stake, but your CIC is back home asking people if it was even legal? that timing would never be accepted by the public or the military. 

Halifax2TheMax

And he withdrew troops by the end of 2011 and upon re-election in 2012, appointed the commission shortly after taking office in 2013. No worry of re-election and either a POOTWH or Hillary administration to deal with the fallout. Doing nothing was not an option if you wanted to maintain credibility or the moral high ground going forward. The US has neither.

JB16057

Halifax2TheMax said:

And he withdrew troops by the end of 2011 and upon re-election in 2012, appointed the commission shortly after taking office in 2013. No worry of re-election and either a POOTWH or Hillary administration to deal with the fallout. Doing nothing was not an option if you wanted to maintain credibility or the moral high ground going forward. The US has neither.

or maybe they are all in on it and we are just the pawns.

mrussel1

JB16057 said:

Halifax2TheMax said:

And he withdrew troops by the end of 2011 and upon re-election in 2012, appointed the commission shortly after taking office in 2013. No worry of re-election and either a POOTWH or Hillary administration to deal with the fallout. Doing nothing was not an option if you wanted to maintain credibility or the moral high ground going forward. The US has neither.

or maybe they are all in on it and we are just the pawns.

yes, state senator (and community organizer) Barack Obama was in on the Iraq invasion in 2002.

gimmesometruth27

mrussel1 said:

JB16057 said:

Halifax2TheMax said:

And he withdrew troops by the end of 2011 and upon re-election in 2012, appointed the commission shortly after taking office in 2013. No worry of re-election and either a POOTWH or Hillary administration to deal with the fallout. Doing nothing was not an option if you wanted to maintain credibility or the moral high ground going forward. The US has neither.

or maybe they are all in on it and we are just the pawns.

yes, state senator (and community organizer) Barack Obama was in on the Iraq invasion in 2002.

i think he was also preoccupied with being an ultra secret muslim back at that time.

brianlux

mickeyrat said:

brianlux said:

mrussel1 said:

gimmesometruth27 said:

anybody keeping up with the atrocities committed by retreating russian soldiers? killing civilians. over 400 bodies found with hands tied, gunshots to the head, and mutilated children's bodies. also killed all the pets. fuck russia.

Yes.  Fuck Russia.  They have committed atrocities against Ukrainians for generations.  This is why Uke will never submit,  not matter how much Putin deludes himself into thinking they want to be part of Russia. 

Yes, second that, fuck Russia.  And now both Serbia and  Hungary have re-elected pro-Putin incumbents.  And according to the NY Times, it is possible France could go the same way.  The Times said, "A bigger test will occur this month in France, which will hold its own presidential election — and where a victory by the far-right candidate would be a geopolitical earthquake." 

So no wonder some times I just want to say, "Fuck the world." 

Will democracy survive?  I don't know.  I just don't know.

If you can read it:  https://messaging-custom-newsletters.nytimes.com/template/oakv2?campaign_id=9&emc=edit_nn_20220404&instance_id=57547&nl=the-morning&productCode=NN&regi_id=184825161&segment_id=87447&te=1&uri=nyt://newsletter/433be088-11d8-5e85-885a-63ec072f4bc9&user_id=6b7dc0622ac2e3522867b427d4960ea8

brian, look for the gift box icon next to the share icon. subscribers can gift up to 10 articles a month.

Cool, thanks M.

mrussel1 said:

brianlux said:

mrussel1 said:

gimmesometruth27 said:

anybody keeping up with the atrocities committed by retreating russian soldiers? killing civilians. over 400 bodies found with hands tied, gunshots to the head, and mutilated children's bodies. also killed all the pets. fuck russia.

Yes.  Fuck Russia.  They have committed atrocities against Ukrainians for generations.  This is why Uke will never submit,  not matter how much Putin deludes himself into thinking they want to be part of Russia. 

Yes, second that, fuck Russia.  And now both Serbia and  Hungary have re-elected pro-Putin incumbents.  And according to the NY Times, it is possible France could go the same way.  The Times said, "A bigger test will occur this month in France, which will hold its own presidential election — and where a victory by the far-right candidate would be a geopolitical earthquake." 

So no wonder some times I just want to say, "Fuck the world." 

Will democracy survive?  I don't know.  I just don't know.

If you can read it:  https://messaging-custom-newsletters.nytimes.com/template/oakv2?campaign_id=9&emc=edit_nn_20220404&instance_id=57547&nl=the-morning&productCode=NN&regi_id=184825161&segment_id=87447&te=1&uri=nyt://newsletter/433be088-11d8-5e85-885a-63ec072f4bc9&user_id=6b7dc0622ac2e3522867b427d4960ea8

So yes, it appears Orban won.  He has been limiting democracy for several years now.  He has, however, come out against Russia's invasion, although there is no doubt that his politics are closer to Putin's than Biden's.  The difference is though, that Hungary is not going to expand their borders.  They are focused on closing them. 

And agreed on Serbia too, but this is no surprise.  They have been closely aligned to Russia for hundreds of years, directly leading to WWI.  The risk with them, of course, is a repeat of 1997 where someone like Milosevic starts a genocidal war again.

I would be shocked SHOCKED if Macron loses Le Pen.  That would be an unmitigated disaster for liberal democracies.  I don't see it happening, but we didn't see Trump either. 

It would be a shock.  That it is even a possibility is deeply disturbing to me.  I don't understand what the fuck is happening to this world.

mrussel1

gimmesometruth27 said:

mrussel1 said:

JB16057 said:

Halifax2TheMax said:

And he withdrew troops by the end of 2011 and upon re-election in 2012, appointed the commission shortly after taking office in 2013. No worry of re-election and either a POOTWH or Hillary administration to deal with the fallout. Doing nothing was not an option if you wanted to maintain credibility or the moral high ground going forward. The US has neither.

or maybe they are all in on it and we are just the pawns.

yes, state senator (and community organizer) Barack Obama was in on the Iraq invasion in 2002.

i think he was also preoccupied with being an ultra secret muslim back at that time.

While moonlighting at the church of Jeremiah Wright.  He was somehow a Muslim and radical Christian at the same time. 

The greatest trick the devil ever pulled was making us think he didn't exist..

Halifax2TheMax

mrussel1 said:

gimmesometruth27 said:

mrussel1 said:

JB16057 said:

Halifax2TheMax said:

And he withdrew troops by the end of 2011 and upon re-election in 2012, appointed the commission shortly after taking office in 2013. No worry of re-election and either a POOTWH or Hillary administration to deal with the fallout. Doing nothing was not an option if you wanted to maintain credibility or the moral high ground going forward. The US has neither.

or maybe they are all in on it and we are just the pawns.

yes, state senator (and community organizer) Barack Obama was in on the Iraq invasion in 2002.

i think he was also preoccupied with being an ultra secret muslim back at that time.

While moonlighting at the church of Jeremiah Wright.  He was somehow a Muslim and radical Christian at the same time. 

The greatest trick the devil ever pulled was making us think he didn't exist..

With a Kenyan birth certificate to boot. The devil is crafty and wicked.

Bentleyspop

mrussel1 said:

gimmesometruth27 said:

mrussel1 said:

JB16057 said:

Halifax2TheMax said:

And he withdrew troops by the end of 2011 and upon re-election in 2012, appointed the commission shortly after taking office in 2013. No worry of re-election and either a POOTWH or Hillary administration to deal with the fallout. Doing nothing was not an option if you wanted to maintain credibility or the moral high ground going forward. The US has neither.

or maybe they are all in on it and we are just the pawns.

yes, state senator (and community organizer) Barack Obama was in on the Iraq invasion in 2002.

i think he was also preoccupied with being an ultra secret muslim back at that time.

While moonlighting at the church of Jeremiah Wright.  He was somehow a Muslim and radical Christian at the same time. 

The greatest trick the devil ever pulled was making us think he didn't exist..

But we all know he exists because we all know that President Obama is the devil.

Or is it she and Hillary is the devil.

It gets so confusing 

gimmesometruth27

which one is the super devil? does one of them carry a jar of marmalade?

https://youtu.be/RZCl5xgfrk4

Spiritual_Chaos

In the event of a NATO application, Sweden and Finland would not have to worry about security during the application period. This is what the Secretary General of the Defense Alliance, Jens Stoltenberg, says ahead of Wednesday's meeting of foreign ministers, reports TT.

 He states that no "other countries are closer to NATO than Sweden and Finland"

 In the event of an application, Stoltenberg expects to be able to provide some form of security guarantees before entering.

 - I'm sure we can find ways to resolve any concerns they may have, (...) It does not help if I start speculating publicly about how we will do it, but I'm sure that if they seek so we can sit down and solve that question, says Stoltenberg.

bootlegger10

It is crazy the world is just standing by and watching this all happen.  Because Russia has nukes…. Sad.

mrussel1

bootlegger10 said:

It is crazy the world is just standing by and watching this all happen.  Because Russia has nukes…. Sad.

I wouldn't say the world is just watching, unless you believe the only action that counts is actually boots on the ground by NATO and the western powers.