Ed and God

timsinclair

Ok so who is 'he' for you? is he someone hounded by the media?
What about the key to the locks on the chains he saw everywhere?

anarchist_grunger

TheBeach wrote:

Because there is no way that man and the universe could have come from nothing. We had to have a Creator. I can't imagine going through life thinking there is nothing guiding you. We all have this journey and lessons to learn so that we are ready for the next life. It doesn't make sense that when you die your spirit would just die with your outer shell. There have been people who have set out to prove there is no God and have come back as believers. If you pray you'll see there is a God

as funny as it gets )

Jeanie

Tim?

See that little button marked quote on the bottom right of each post?

Well if you want to reply to someone's post you just hit that button and what they've said will appear and you can write your reply underneath it.
When you submit the post their text will appear with your reply underneath in the same post.

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I'd just like to add, it never even occurred to me until I started coming here that anyone would consider Given to Fly or any of Pearl Jam's music as being about god or Jesus. Perhaps because I have always been aware that Ed is an athiest or maybe because I filter his words through my own belief system, I'm just not buying that these songs are religious or that he stopped being religious because I've never considered that he was in the first place.
If you take from them that they are religious so be it, what works for you works for you, the bottom line is that we'll all have our own interpretation of these songs based on how we view the world. So they mean many different things to many different people.

anarchist_grunger

grazman wrote:

wasnt Given To Fly written about Mike anyway..........i could be wrong........probably am wrong............taxi for grazman!

i'll advance anoher conjecture...it's about Plato's "allegory of the cave"

timsinclair

Jeanie wrote:

Tim?

See that little button marked quote on the bottom right of each post?

Well if you want to reply to someone's post you just hit that button and what they've said will appear and you can write your reply underneath it.
When you submit the post their text will appear with your reply underneath in the same post.

Just in case you're interested.

I'd just like to add, it never even occurred to me until I started coming here that anyone would consider Given to Fly or any of Pearl Jam's music as being about god or Jesus. Perhaps because I have always been aware that Ed is an athiest or maybe because I filter his words through my own belief system, I'm just not buying that these songs are religious or that he stopped being religious because I've never considered that he was in the first place.
If you take from them that they are religious so be it, what works for you works for you, the bottom line is that we'll all have our own interpretation of these songs based on how we view the world. So they mean many different things to many different people.

Oh yeah. I wondered how people did that.
Thanks Jeanie

timsinclair

anarchist_grunger wrote:

i'll advance anoher conjecture...it's about Plato's "allegory of the cave"

Ok Mr Anarchist Grunger. How is it about Plato's allegory of the cave?

Jeanie

timsinclair wrote:

Oh yeah. I wondered how people did that.
Thanks Jeanie

You're welcome.

timsinclair

timsinclair wrote:

it has just occured to me that the last few post about lightyears illustrate my point about meaning. Of course, we could create our own subjective meanings for the song, but that doesn't change the fact that it has a meaning intended by the author - an expression of loss over a friend who has died. Now that we know this, I doubt anyone (except maybe that cheeky anarchist grunger) will suggest that it means anything different. I think the same is true for all songs, its just that we usually dont have the vital key of the songwriter's circumstances and thought when he wrote the song.

Wow, I can even quote myself.
I do this in response to the last post about subjective meaning. The other posts around that time are relevant too.

Jeanie

timsinclair wrote:

Wow, I can even quote myself.
I do this in response to the last post about subjective meaning. The other posts around that time are relevant too.

I've created a monster!! haha!

I see what you're saying but again it is interpretive.

I can recall a rather large discussion going on here about the song Come Back which was written about the death of someone, but for a lot of people who didn't know the writer's intention, they had come up with very different interpretations. It didn't resonate as a song about death to me until I heard it AFTER someone close to me had died, till then it was about mental connection and a lover coming and going. Now it covers both for me.

Or Animal, there was a really long discussion about what it all meant. Some of us had read that it was about gang rape and others completely disagreed.
It never occurred to me that it was about anything other than gang rape and whilst I've taken on board the interpretations that others have of that song, it will always be about gang rape to me.

So even providing evidence to someone about the writer's intention doesn't set in concrete someone's interpretation. That's the beauty of this music. There is no meaning other than that which you place upon it. And even better, repeatedly Eddie has said that these songs mean different things to different people, it's a re-occurring comment from him. It's like he's saying, "Yeah, I wrote this and it's a part of me but it belongs to you too, to understand as you will."

timsinclair

Jeanie wrote:

I've created a monster!! haha!

I see what you're saying but again it is interpretive.

I can recall a rather large discussion going on here about the song Come Back which was written about the death of someone, but for a lot of people who didn't know the writer's intention, they had come up with very different interpretations. It didn't resonate as a song about death to me until I heard it AFTER someone close to me had died, till then it was about mental connection and a lover coming and going. Now it covers both for me.

Or Animal, there was a really long discussion about what it all meant. Some of us had read that it was about gang rape and others completely disagreed.
It never occurred to me that it was about anything other than gang rape and whilst I've taken on board the interpretations that others have of that song, it will always be about gang rape to me.

So even providing evidence to someone about the writer's intention doesn't set in concrete someone's interpretation. That's the beauty of this music. There is no meaning other than that which you place upon it. And even better, repeatedly Eddie has said that these songs mean different things to different people, it's a re-occurring comment from him. It's like he's saying, "Yeah, I wrote this and it's a part of me but it belongs to you too, to understand as you will."

I agree that you can place your own meaning on songs and that most song writers are cool with this unless we decide that it is instructing us to kill someone or something, as has been done with the U2 song exit, as well as Beatles songs. However, I think that the author's intended meaning is still important, and can illuminate the song for us.

Jeanie

timsinclair wrote:

I agree that you can place your own meaning on songs and that most song writers are cool with this unless we decide that it is instructing us to kill someone or something, as has been done with the U2 song exit, as well as Beatles songs. However, I think that the author's intended meaning is still important, and can illuminate the song for us.

Sure.

I don't think writers should be overly concerned by any meaning that someone else derives from their words, regardless of the actions or excuses people use to justify their actions.
Absolutely the author's intended meaning is still important but even that is an ongoing process. There are things that one can write based on where they're at in a particular time in their life that has no bearing on where they might be today. Some writers are able to see that as part of their life story and continue to embrace it but there are others that simply do not feel the same way about what they wrote and will no longer play or read or even acknowledge works from particular times in their lives. We all evolve and change as life continues. What holds meaning now and is relevant to us today may not be tomorrow, or we could feel entirely different about it.

Case in point Peter Garrett of Midnight Oil wrote and performed in one of the greatest activist bands of this generation but you'd never know it now that he's gone off to join the suits that he rallied so passionately against for such a long time.

Hinny

Jeanie wrote:

Tim?

See that little button marked quote on the bottom right of each post?

Well if you want to reply to someone's post you just hit that button and what they've said will appear and you can write your reply underneath it.
When you submit the post their text will appear with your reply underneath in the same post.

Just in case you're interested.

I'd just like to add, it never even occurred to me until I started coming here that anyone would consider Given to Fly or any of Pearl Jam's music as being about god or Jesus. Perhaps because I have always been aware that Ed is an athiest or maybe because I filter his words through my own belief system, I'm just not buying that these songs are religious or that he stopped being religious because I've never considered that he was in the first place.
If you take from them that they are religious so be it, what works for you works for you, the bottom line is that we'll all have our own interpretation of these songs based on how we view the world. So they mean many different things to many different people.

This is precisely what i meant about meaning being always derived from personal interpretation, which is based on their socialisation, rather than any inherent meaning behind the words.

A red light doesn't 'naturally' mean stop. It works that way cos that's what has been imposed onto our perceptions by what is around us. The same goes for any book, any song, any poem, any sign.

Hence ends sociology 101.

Jeanie

Hinny wrote:

This is precisely what i meant about meaning being always derived from personal interpretation, which is based on their socialisation, rather than any inherent meaning behind the words.

A red light doesn't 'naturally' mean stop. It works that way cos that's what has been imposed onto our perceptions by what is around us. The same goes for any book, any song, any poem, any sign.

Hence ends sociology 101.

I understood what you meant Hinny and I agree.

catefrances

timsinclair wrote:

Ok so who is 'he' for you? is he someone hounded by the media?
What about the key to the locks on the chains he saw everywhere?

basically, He is you.

and the key is the freedom he allows himself to just be and find what works for him to acquire what it is he is looking for. whether that be solace or peace or equilibrium or whatever it is you want to call it that gives one inner strength and a sense of oneself. if one can step back and see the big picture (and i feel the big picture may well differ from person to person) and arrive at a place where they can contemplate all it is they need to and derive from it all they need to live their lives then thats the ultimate goal isnt it?

MrFadedGlory

timsinclair wrote:

No I dont dig! I have not expressed any animosity towards Ed or PJ, just sadness. From your point of view, people can hold whatever belifs they like and it doesn't really matter. But if you took the Bible seriously, as I do, then you would want to 'share the key to the locks on the chains' that you see everywhere. For this reason, it is always sad when someone rejects the only key that can free them and decides that they are not chained. If your wife is a believer, I expect she is sad that you are not going to the same place, think about it next time you sing along to Hail Hail 'are we going to the same place? so can I come?' peace.

If God is your key to freedom then I am completely glad that you discovered It and broke the chains. You should embrace those of us that do not feel chained and can experience freedom without Him. "...you underestimate me."

timsinclair

Hinny wrote:

This is precisely what i meant about meaning being always derived from personal interpretation, which is based on their socialisation, rather than any inherent meaning behind the words.

A red light doesn't 'naturally' mean stop. It works that way cos that's what has been imposed onto our perceptions by what is around us. The same goes for any book, any song, any poem, any sign.

Hence ends sociology 101.

Yes Hinny. I agree that the words convey their meaning through culturally conditioned symbols but if we are part of that same culture, we are abe to discern the intended meaning.

timsinclair

MrFadedGlory wrote:

If God is your key to freedom then I am completely glad that you discovered It and broke the chains. You should embrace those of us that do not feel chained and can experience freedom without Him. "...you underestimate me."

I find this 'whats true for you is different to whats true for me' attitude frustrating. Truth is not subjective. If you are an atheist and you believe in evolution, your belief necesarily requires that my faith is based on a very big lie, conversly If I am right that God created the world as is recorded in genesis 1 & 2, this requires that your belief is based on a very big lie. Only one can be true!, stop hiding behind this 'i'm so tolerant I would never criticise your faith so dont criticise mine' facade. Epistemological relativism is philosophical suicide, if you are an atheist, its ok if you think I am deluded, I wont be offended, this is the only basis for honest discussion. Peace

slightofjeff

MrFadedGlory wrote:

If God is your key to freedom then I am completely glad that you discovered It and broke the chains. You should embrace those of us that do not feel chained and can experience freedom without Him. "...you underestimate me."

What's funny to me, since we're talking about GTF, is that the "others" who are chained in the song don't even realize they are chained.

It almost fits exactly with what we are talking about here. I'm starting to freak out. Maybe GTF really IS just a retelling of the gospel of John

timsinclair

slightofjeff wrote:

What's funny to me, since we're talking about GTF, is that the "others" who are chained in the song don't even realize they are chained.

It almost fits exactly with what we are talking about here. I'm starting to freak out. Maybe GTF really IS just a retelling of the gospel of John

Hey slight.
welcome back, it sounds like you've had a revelation since you were last here. what have you been up to?

slightofjeff

timsinclair wrote:

Hey slight.
welcome back, it sounds like you've had a revelation since you were last here. what have you been up to?

Lighting candles and listening to GTF