Ed and God

grazman

and the animals went in two by two, hoooorah, hoooorah

timsinclair

grazman wrote:

and the animals went in two by two, hoooorah, hoooorah

Indeed Grazman! and the others went in seven by seven.

ajedigecko

grazman wrote:

and the animals went in two by two, hoooorah, hoooorah

why the condescending tone?

catefrances

timsinclair wrote:

Ok Cate. Since you have made a statement of faith, are you willing to have your belief scrutinized in the same way that you have scrutinized mine?
Is your energy/presence made of atoms and molecules or is it supernatural?
Is it a thing, or does it have a personality?

yes scrutinise away.

my energy/presence is a sense. it has no personality. it absorbs what is around it and projects that outward, bouncing it back to the person it is meant for. you could call it intuition, you could call it conscience. you can call it whatever you like. its just a primal sense. i dont see it as supernatural cause i feel it is a part of us.
i see it in the same way as i sense when one of my children is doing something they shouldnt be doing. the silence in the house has a different feel and sound about it than when they are quietly doing soemthing such as reading a book or some such thing.

grazman

timsinclair wrote:

Indeed Grazman! and the others went in seven by seven.

what happened to all the freshwater fish?

catefrances

grazman wrote:

what happened to all the freshwater fish?

they evolved.

timsinclair

grazman wrote:

what happened to all the freshwater fish?

Good Question!
However, no they did not evolve as cate suggests.

http://creationontheweb.com/content/view/4108

http://www.icr.org/article/351/

Peace

timsinclair

catefrances wrote:

yes scrutinise away.

my energy/presence is a sense. it has no personality. it absorbs what is around it and projects that outward, bouncing it back to the person it is meant for. you could call it intuition, you could call it conscience. you can call it whatever you like. its just a primal sense. i dont see it as supernatural cause i feel it is a part of us.
i see it in the same way as i sense when one of my children is doing something they shouldnt be doing. the silence in the house has a different feel and sound about it than when they are quietly doing soemthing such as reading a book or some such thing.

I see, so some kind of ESP? This in itself is supernatural but your phrase: 'it absorbs what is around it and projects that outward, bouncing it back to the person it is meant for.' seems to suggest that it is separate from the person, is it? Intuition and concience certainly are not. If you are just talking about concience, it sounds a bit strange to call it a 'presence'.

Collin

timsinclair wrote:

I havn't watched your link yet but, I'm NOT saying Ed is a theif and a liar, I think the song is written from the viewpoint of a deranged, power crazed leader of some sort.

Ok, that doesn't change the argument, however.

catefrances

timsinclair wrote:

Good Question!
However, no they did not evolve as cate suggests.

http://creationontheweb.com/content/view/4108

http://www.icr.org/article/351/

Peace

oh tim lighten up, i was joking.

catefrances

timsinclair wrote:

I see, so some kind of ESP? This in itself is supernatural but your phrase: 'it absorbs what is around it and projects that outward, bouncing it back to the person it is meant for.' seems to suggest that it is separate from the person, is it? Intuition and concience certainly are not. If you are just talking about concience, it sounds a bit strange to call it a 'presence'.

no not some kind of ESP. the presence is both separate and a part of the person. this is why more than one person is able to experience the presence.
i think i misspoke when i used the words intuition and conscience. it is difficult for me to put labels to things, but i thought thats what was needed. perhaps i should have called it instinct rather than intuition.

anyhoo try this for an example of what im trying to convey.

i am a single parent. i am the primary caregiver for my children. living basically 24/7 with my children, when they were younger i could sense from a change in the 'vibe' of our house when they are up to 'no good'. their father never could. even when they were in his custody. he always equated their silence with good. i told him he couldnt leave them as alone with themselves as he did because he wasnt around them enough to understand the changes in the air. i know this may sound a little airy fairy. but im sure im not the only mother than can sense this. or any father who has primary custody of his children.

as for your contention that intuition is not separate from the person, i question that. sure it feels like intuition comes from within us, but there has to be something out there to be sensed in the first place i think, dont you? intuition is just a reaction to outside stimuli. but yes i agree with you conscience does come from within. i actually think our conscience is our soul. thats why even though I am an atheist i believe i have a soul.

Collin

timsinclair wrote:

Hi Collin.
I've looked at your link now. I never said that Darwinism was the ONLY cause of the Holocaust, how about 2000 years of Christian anti-semitism, that didn't help much either. Hitler also fervently believed the anti-semitic conspiracy document 'The Protocols of the Wise men of Zion', which i think was the no.1 factor. But the arian superiority element, and a large part of the justification for the holocaust was Darwinian Eugenics, no doubt. Yes later Darwinists like Lewontin and Gould have done much to exorcize Eugenics from Neo-Darwinism, but that doesn't alter the historical impact it had already had.

You are trying, very hard it seems, to link Hitler with evolution. You will fail, however, because the link is not there. It exists only in your mind.

And you are doing it again, despite the hard evidence. "Darwinian Eugenics" does not exist, it is also a figment of your imagination, probably introduced by the creationist smear campaign. Darwin did not propose eugenics, nor did he support it.

Furthermore, the historical impact is irrelevant to the theory of evolution. We've already established that eugenics and evolution are two entirely different things. One was heavily supported by Christian groups, by the way. But I'm sure you've read that too.

I actually only heard about the film 'Expelled' yesterday, I just watched the trailer and it looks awesome. Everyone interested in this debate should check it out on the link below. Have you seen the whole film?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xGCxbhGaVfE

I don't plan to watch it. I've read that entire website. They have posted direct claims from the movie and disproved them. The site shows how the maker of this movie leaves out certain information, distorts certain facts, twists everything he can into an argument against evolution or for creationism. A simple read of the website will shows they are not "debating" the issues, they are disproving claims and correcting lies or simply providing entire sources of which only the parts which the maker deemed convenient were used. I am not interested in a propaganda movie that shows no respect for the truth. I really hope you'll read the entire site as well. I think you will agree with the site instead of the movie. If not, then you are willing disregarding a lot of information and facts.

I said I will try and get a copy of Darwin on Trial. I agree that both sides should be read. I will of course also read the criticisms. And I will also look into The Design Inference by Dembski, if I can find it.

Collin

catefrances wrote:

but yes i agree with you conscience does come from within. i actually think our conscience is our soul. thats why even though I am an atheist i believe i have a soul.

Do you believe your soul will live on? Or will died with you? I think the word soul is a bit like sin.

I believe I have a brain, I believe I am a brain.

catefrances

Collin wrote:

Do you believe your soul will live on? Or will died with you? I think the word soul is a bit like sin.

I believe I have a brain, I believe I am a brain.

no. yes.

well i dont believe i have a brain collin. i know i have a brain. and i am more than just that brain.

Collin

catefrances wrote:

no. yes.

well i dont believe i have a brain collin. i know i have a brain. and i am more than just that brain.

You're right, I know I have a brain.

I also think that I am more than just that brain, but at the same time I'm not. Everything I am, even the sense of self, the "I" who sits in the control room, is all brain activity.

Our thoughts and feelings are physiological activity in the tissues of the brain. There's plenty, actually huge amounts of scientific evidence to support this claim, if you want I will provide it. Any neuroscientist will tell you the same. The problem is people can't seem to accept the substantial evidence.

I became very interested about this when I first read about it. I did a lot of 'research' on the subject - I even aksed Ahnimus for sources I knew he would not let me down.

This field of study is fascinating and scary in a way.

catefrances

Collin wrote:

You're right, I know I have a brain.

I also think that I am more than just that brain, but at the same time I'm not. Everything I am, even the sense of self, the "I" who sits in the control room, is all brain activity.

Our thoughts and feelings are physiological activity in the tissues of the brain. There's plenty, actually huge amounts of scientific evidence to support this claim, if you want I will provide it. Any neuroscientist will tell you the same. The problem is people can't seem to accept the substantial evidence.

I became very interested about this when I first read about it. I did a lot of 'research' on the subject - I even aksed Ahnimus for sources I knew he would not let me down.

This field of study is fascinating and scary in a way.

so youre of the opinion that your body is just a vessel for your brain?

Collin

catefrances wrote:

so youre of the opinion that your body is just a vessel for your brain?

Well... basically. Everything my body does is controlled by my brain. Without my brain, my body would be useless. But without my body, my brain could not survive.

I've read about these things and there's little room for arguing. You'd have to have some real hard evidence to prove those theories wrong.

I accept those theories because of the huge amount of evidence. But it's not my life view, or whatever.

I'm too busy to give a fuck, though. See, my brain is creating all these feelinsg, thoughts, sensations... I don't see the point in telling myself it's "just" brain activity, even though factually I would be right. Like I said, to me it's also more. The fact that I know what causes feelings of love, or being in love etc. does not alter the feelings I have for my girlfriend (sorry manipulatedliving ).
We're not focused on electrical activity within the brain. We enjoy life, I enjoy life and I intend to keep it that way. My girlfriend and I talk about things we both like, pearl jam for example, food, books, movies, parties, talks... The fact that hormones, brain activity all have a part in this does not change how I feel about her. I don't feel less in love, I don't love her less.

Why try to actively suppress feelings, thoughts, sensations... that are products of your brain? It doesn't make sense to me.

It's like listening to a beautiful piece of music and taking it apart completely, separating the bassline, the lead guitar, the vocals, the lyrics, the drums... for each other. You know the beautiful piece of music consists out of simpler elements yet you still think it's beautiful. You might even be amazed how people can create such beauty with such simple means.

I have similar feelings about these neuroscientific findings.

edit: My girlfriend and I rarely talk about talks Just thought I'd mention that!

grazman

timsinclair wrote:

Good Question!
However, no they did not evolve as cate suggests.

http://creationontheweb.com/content/view/4108

http://www.icr.org/article/351/

Peace

Tim, instead of quoting all these scientific facts about how freshwater fish could have survived the great flood why not just say....God performed a miracle and kept them all alive. Its much easier.

Collin

timsinclair wrote:

I havn't watched your link yet but, I'm NOT saying Ed is a theif and a liar, I think the song is written from the viewpoint of a deranged, power crazed leader of some sort.

I think this discussion again comes down to understanding evolution. You apparently don't understand the theory of evolution, and neither does the 'protagonist' in the song. I also think the 'protagonist' isn't one person, I think it's mankind in general. And that's just my opinion.

To me, it's about mankind thinking they are it. The most perfect beings on the planet, the best beings, the blessed beings... The pinnacle of evolution or god's children...

It's about people, regardless of creed, doing what they want and justifying it with whatever reason they choose. Or they don't even justify it themselves, they just do it and don't think about it... Ed sort of points it out.

grazman

Collin wrote:

I think this discussion again comes down to understanding evolution. You apparently don't understand the theory of evolution, and neither does the 'protagonist' in the song. I also think the 'protagonist' isn't one person, I think it's mankind in general. And that's just my opinion.

To me, it's about mankind thinking they are it. The most perfect beings on the planet, the best beings, the blessed beings... The pinnacle of evolution or god's children...

It's about people, regardless of creed, doing what they want and justifying it with whatever reason they choose. Or they don't even justify it themselves, they just do it and don't think about it... Ed sort of points it out.

yeah, i dont think DTE is about 1 person, its about all mankind destroying the planet.