Ed and God

timsinclair

Collin wrote:

God said he would never destroy every living thing again or curse the ground.

Where in the Bible did God say this?

timsinclair

Collin wrote:

I'm not a believer.

A sin is a religious concept. That's my point.

slightofjeff, of course there are actions that are wrong regardless of your creed, I think murder is one of them. I don't believe it's a sin, though. Because a sin is a biblical concept, it's against the rules of god, who I don't believe in.

Cate really explained it already in her post, though.

Here is a first. Collin, Cate, and Tim all agree on something! Ed asked the question (if there were no angels would there be no sin?) Tim, Cate, and Collin say: Yes!! there would indeed be no sin Ed, dont want to stop you before you begin, next question?

catefrances

timsinclair wrote:

Here is a first. Collin, Cate, and Tim all agree on something! Ed asked the question (if there were no angels would there be no sin?) Tim, Cate, and Collin say: Yes!! there would indeed be no sin Ed, dont want to stop you before you begin, next question?

where did i mention angels?

Collin

timsinclair wrote:

Where in the Bible did God say this?

Exodus 8:21

"And the LORD smelled a soothing aroma. Then the LORD said in His heart, “I will never again curse the ground for man’s sake, although the imagination of man’s heart is evil from his youth; nor will I again destroy every living thing as I have done."

slightofjeff

LeatherMandi wrote:

Yeah but knowing murder is wrong is a natural instinct.. has nothing to do with any form of "god'

I was born knowing that murder is wrong.. its common sense people .. not freaking celestial

Well, that's kind of my point. Sin exists with or without religion.

But, to take this another direction, just for fun: Is knowing that murder is wrong really a natural instinct? Animals kill each other all the time. In fact, the "natural instinct" often seems to be to kill, or be killed.

So if humans are just animals, evolved from other animals, how is it that we are born knowing that murder is wrong?

I'm not saying I know the answer to this question. It's just food for thought, really.

urbanhippie

slightofjeff wrote:

Well, that's kind of my point. Sin exists with or without religion.

But, to take this another direction, just for fun: Is knowing that murder is wrong really a natural instinct? Animals kill each other all the time. In fact, the "natural instinct" often seems to be to kill, or be killed.

So if humans are just animals, evolved from other animals, how is it that we are born knowing that murder is wrong?

I'm not saying I know the answer to this question. It's just food for thought, really.

I could be wrong, and I'm new to this discussion, but what I think cate was saying is that the concept of 'sin' exists purely in a religious context.

What right or wrong doesn't come into it. Murder is a sin (if you believe in God), but it's also wrong in a moral and social sense. Nothing to do with religion.
Gluttony is a sin...but not necessarily seen as wrong in the same way.

Just my view, of course...

Collin

urbanhippie wrote:

I could be wrong, and I'm new to this discussion, but what I think cate was saying is that the concept of 'sin' exists purely in a religious context.

What right or wrong doesn't come into it. Murder is a sin (if you believe in God), but it's also wrong in a moral and social sense. Nothing to do with religion.
Gluttony is a sin...but not necessarily seen as wrong in the same way.

Just my view, of course...

Exactly. I think that was Cate's point.

timsinclair

catefrances wrote:

where did i mention angels?

Oh come on Cate, why such pettiness?
Is it so hard to agree with a believer on even such a minor point? After a long battle, honourable opponents can at least agree on something that does not give either side a victory. Intelligent Design Godfather Philip Johnson, and his arch-Darwinist opponent Michael Ruse respect one another, have the humility to concede a point when it is lost, and are able to be friends. It felt good, after such a long battle (mostly with Collin), to have a moment of agreement and now you've gone and spoiled it. Was I presumtious to conclude that a declared atheist like yourself does not believe in Angels? I think not, unless that is, you dont quite understand what atheism is. But have it your way, if you dont want to be in the honourable opponents club I will delete your name and repost.

timsinclair

Here is a first. Collin and Tim agree on something! Ed asked the question (if there were no angels would there be no sin?) Tim and Collin say: Yes!! there would indeed be no sin Ed, dont want to stop you before you begin, next question?

grazman

slightofjeff wrote:

Well, that's kind of my point. Sin exists with or without religion.

But, to take this another direction, just for fun: Is knowing that murder is wrong really a natural instinct? Animals kill each other all the time. In fact, the "natural instinct" often seems to be to kill, or be killed.

So if humans are just animals, evolved from other animals, how is it that we are born knowing that murder is wrong?

I'm not saying I know the answer to this question. It's just food for thought, really.

Your not born knowing that murder is wrong, your taught and you learn that murder is wrong when your growing up. Your born knowing that murder is a natural thing to do. Animal instinct is present in all forms of life including Humans. If something is a threat to you you will protect yourself. Kill or be kill.

timsinclair

slightofjeff wrote:

Well, that's kind of my point. Sin exists with or without religion.

But, to take this another direction, just for fun: Is knowing that murder is wrong really a natural instinct? Animals kill each other all the time. In fact, the "natural instinct" often seems to be to kill, or be killed.

So if humans are just animals, evolved from other animals, how is it that we are born knowing that murder is wrong?

I'm not saying I know the answer to this question. It's just food for thought, really.

Hey Slight. You know I am a friendly critic but I think those evil heathens have a point here (thats a joke Cate). The disagreement is over the term 'sin' which refers specifically to breaking God's laws, hence no God-no sin. However your other point is a good one. Why, if we are just prodcts of evolution, do we have a shared sense of morality? If we did just evolve without any designer, there are no moral absolutes so ethics are purly subjective and nobody has the right to say 'murder is wrong' and impose this on a society. If you strictly follow evolutionary logic, someone could say 'murder is right' and for him it would be right, who are we to disagree? On this point evolutionists will say: 'anything is permissable so long as it does not harm others' but this does not stand up philosophically, our actions always affect others in the end, plus this rule is itself presented as an absolute, which contradicts the evolutionary view that morals are purely subjective constructs.

timsinclair

Collin wrote:

Exodus 8:21

"And the LORD smelled a soothing aroma. Then the LORD said in His heart, “I will never again curse the ground for man’s sake, although the imagination of man’s heart is evil from his youth; nor will I again destroy every living thing as I have done."

Oh yeah, never really noticed that, he doesn't mention water here as he does in Ch 9 Vs 11-17 (which is the verse about the rainbow) but it doesn't alter my point about the flood being global.

P.s, for anyone else who has been looking up Collin's Bible Quote, its Genesis 8:21.

timsinclair

grazman wrote:

Your not born knowing that murder is wrong, your taught and you learn that murder is wrong when your growing up. Your born knowing that murder is a natural thing to do. Animal instinct is present in all forms of life including Humans. If something is a threat to you you will protect yourself. Kill or be kill.

Wow. Remind me not to meet up for a drink.

urbanhippie

timsinclair wrote:

Wow. Remind me not to meet up for a drink.

Drink or not, he's right. No one is born 'knowing' anything. These values are instilled in us by society and hopefully by our parents. It is nurture and not nature that teaches us right from wrong.

Frncisca1920

How Can You Compare Ed's Music To Religion?

His Music Is All About Who You Are As A Person And How We Perceived The World Around Us.

Pearl Jam Is A Rock Band Not A Cult!!!

I Think You Got It All Wrong From The Begining My Friend.

You Do Not Need Religion To Go On An Spiitual Journey.

If You Are A Sensitive And Intelligent Human Being You Should Know By Now That There Is No Such A Thing As God!!!

Francisca

Collin

timsinclair wrote:

Hey Slight. You know I am a friendly critic but I think those evil heathens have a point here (thats a joke Cate). The disagreement is over the term 'sin' which refers specifically to breaking God's laws, hence no God-no sin. However your other point is a good one. Why, if we are just prodcts of evolution, do we have a shared sense of morality? If we did just evolve without any designer, there are no moral absolutes so ethics are purly subjective and nobody has the right to say 'murder is wrong' and impose this on a society. If you strictly follow evolutionary logic, someone could say 'murder is right' and for him it would be right, who are we to disagree? On this point evolutionists will say: 'anything is permissable so long as it does not harm others' but this does not stand up philosophically, our actions always affect others in the end, plus this rule is itself presented as an absolute, which contradicts the evolutionary view that morals are purely subjective constructs.

Things are not as simple as you'd want them to be.

Why do we have a shared sense of morality? Do we? What do you think about abortion? Let's compare your answer with some other answers. Furthermore, whatever sense of shared morality we have, if we have one, does not mean god created man at all. That's the problem I have with intelligent design. Jump straight to god whenever it fits. What about other factors? Environment, fear... Or of course... Religious doctrine! They've been known to impose their will on people, just open a history book Without any proof whatsoever that their god even exists.

Evolution has nothing to do with society. Nothing.

timsinclair

Frncisca1920 wrote:

How Can You Compare Ed's Music To Religion?

His Music Is All About Who You Are As A Person And How We Perceived The World Around Us.

Pearl Jam Is A Rock Band Not A Cult!!!

I Think You Got It All Wrong From The Begining My Friend.

You Do Not Need Religion To Go On An Spiitual Journey.

If You Are A Sensitive And Intelligent Human Being You Should Know By Now That There Is No Such A Thing As God!!!

Francisca

Ok so since I dont KNOW that there is no such thing as God, I must be stupid, insensitive, and subhuman right?

timsinclair

urbanhippie wrote:

Drink or not, he's right. No one is born 'knowing' anything. These values are instilled in us by society and hopefully by our parents. It is nurture and not nature that teaches us right from wrong.

Maybe. its a difficult one to prove. Perhaps it is 100% nurture, but if we get our moral nurture from 'survival of the fittest' that cant be good right?

Fahka

slightofjeff wrote:

Well, that's kind of my point. Sin exists with or without religion.

But, to take this another direction, just for fun: Is knowing that murder is wrong really a natural instinct? Animals kill each other all the time. In fact, the "natural instinct" often seems to be to kill, or be killed.

So if humans are just animals, evolved from other animals, how is it that we are born knowing that murder is wrong?

I'm not saying I know the answer to this question. It's just food for thought, really.

Ill have to disagree. Not disagree persay but theres a lot of weight on the word "sin" I dont think that word really even exists without Christianity ect

Thats where i think we differ from the REAL animals... We may eat shit fuck and die like animals do but we are evolved for a reason.I think a human being is born with a certain set of personal standards... What that human is taught at a very young age after the fact.. is a whole other story..


The word "sin" means transgression of divine law. So for a person who doesn't believe in any god, sin is a non existent word. It doesn't even exist. Does this mean they lie, steal rape and murder? Of course not. So food for thought. Does sin even exist? I think "sin" is a scary label put on "wrong doings" to scare little kids into reading their bibles and behaving.

urbanhippie

timsinclair wrote:

Maybe. its a difficult one to prove. Perhaps it is 100% nurture, but if we get our moral nurture from 'survival of the fittest' that cant be good right?

Society imposes our moral code upon us. For instance, some cultures practise vegetarianism, some cannibalism. None of these are percieved as 'wrong' in the culture in which they are practised. Any more than you think it's wrong to have a bacon sandwich for breakfast, which to some is abhorrent.
We learn these things at our parents feet.