Marjorie Taylor Greene

OnWis97

mrussel1 said:

OnWis97 said:

mrussel1 said:

mace1229 said:

mrussel1 said:

mace1229 said:

Halifax2TheMax said:

mace1229 said:

Is Biden referring to that Florida law that the Oscars made fun of? I don’t see how that is anti-trans.

What Flo Rida law are you referring to?

The one where you can’t tak about sex to first and second graders. I didn’t get why at the Oscars tbe hosts were chanting “gay, gay!” Someone told me it was making fun of that law, which has nothing to do with gay or trans.

That's not quite right.  Sex ed is already banned K-5 in Florida.  This law bans discussion of gender issues K-3.  It also allows a parent to sue a school district if they think their child was privy to such a discussion. 

You’re right, I just read a little more about it. I thought it was more broad.
I still don’t see the issue, and part of the problem with labeling it the “don’t say gay bill” and celebrities repeating that is it’s spreading misinformation about what it really says. Nothing that I saw said they can’t say “gay.” 

"Classroom instruction by school personnel or third parties on sexual orientation or gender identity may not occur in kindergarten through grade 3 or in a manner that is not age-appropriate or developmentally appropriate for students in accordance with state standards."
Got that from this NPR article.
https://www.npr.org/2022/03/28/1089221657/dont-say-gay-florida-desantis

You just can’t have classroom instruction about sexual orientation or gender identity. And why would you in first grade? You can still talk about civil rights and discrimination, historical figures who were gay, and so on. Just can’t have classroom instruction about what it means to be gay or a lesson about gender identity. And at 7 years old, leave it up to the parents to have that discussion. I don’t see if a kid asks “what is gay” that if a teacher answers “when someone has 2 daddys” or something like that fitting under this law, that’s not classroom instruction around sexual orientation. 

I think giving parents the right to sue a school for what a teacher might say in class is outrageous.  Here in Virginia, our new (R) governor established a hotline for parents to complain about teachers.  It's also outrageous that we are dividing parents from teachers, as if they are the enemies.  

They are enemies. At least some of them. This is (culture) war.

Teachers deserve our respect and admiration.  We salute the troops and what not, but I'd love to hear a pilot on a plane salute teachers for a change.  We entrust them with our children every day, and pay them squat.  It's disgraceful.  They have to put their own money into their classes as well.  To me, being a teacher is a sacrifice.  

Absolutely...I have a cousin who collects some money from us every year to buy supplies. I'm a bit nervous about treatment of teachers anyway, just given the fervor of anti, well, anti-everything going on. (In case you didn't see the cynicsm there)

I admit that I have not followed "Don't say Gay" very closely. But I'm reminded of a debate I had with my boss in the early 2000s. His take was that "I don't want to know about it." The people that don't want to know about it; their mind always races to the bedroom. But the ultimate impact is people can't talk about their partners. They have to think twice about having pictures up in the office or talking about your weekend. Why? Because apparently some minds go straight to "the bedroom." Well, if it doesn't with hetero co-workers, why does it with gay co-workers? Again, I'm not even sure whether this is an apt analogy, but if my elementary school teacher can mention his wife, why can another one mention his husband? In neither case is the topic about sex (I sincerely hope). It's about telling the latter to pretend he spends his free time sitting in a chair and looking at the wall. Having two dads or two moms is every bit as much a part of culture as having one parent or being raised by grandparents. Does the bill actually make sure we pretend it doesn't exist? 

Or is this really addressing an actual problem about actual inappropriate talk that has happened and is not about providing a "safe space" for people who don't want today's realities to be at all acknowledged.

OnWis97

PS...I've known for years that I would never want to go into teaching...helicopter parents, potential false accusations of inappropriate behavior, etc. and it only seems to be getting bleaker.

HughFreakingDillon

mace1229 said:

HughFreakingDillon said:

well, generally lawsuits aren't very successful if there's no law against what they are suing for. sure, you can draw up a lawsuit on anything a lawyer is willing to let you pay them for, but if there's no law/precedence, then it will likely go nowhere. If there is a law and later, precedence, it makes it much easier to ruin someone's life over having a simple conversation. it's absurd and flies right in the face of "freedom". 

You’re right about not being very successful. We disagree on how this will apply to the classroom though.

Heres my prediction on how this plays out in a couple years. With all the people and celebs calling it the don’t say gay bill it just takes 1 to listen. A teacher is going to use the word “gay” appropriately in the classroom. Someone in the class is going to respond with “oooooh, you can’t say gay, you’re in trouble.” Another kid is going to believe that crap and say something to his parents. Mom is going to see dollar signs and try to cash in. After contacting a bunch of lawyers she finds one that’s desperate and wants the exposure so he takes it on. It makes national news for a week with everyone who said it before saying again that this means you can’t say gay.
Meanwhile the teacher is on paid leave for 6 months, kids are without a teacher. An already struggling school is going to have to pay legal fees. Then when this is over the district is going to pay more fees to the teacher for wrongfully putting him on leave and ruining his career. But by then everyone forgot this story and just remembers the original lawsuit.

I guess I just can't be as flippant about a stupid law that could potentially ruin lives of teachers. 

HughFreakingDillon

OnWis97 said:

PS...I've known for years that I would never want to go into teaching...helicopter parents, potential false accusations of inappropriate behavior, etc. and it only seems to be getting bleaker.

i agree. I know several teachers and they all seemed stressed out to the brink, especially during report card time. 

mace1229

HughFreakingDillon said:

mace1229 said:

HughFreakingDillon said:

well, generally lawsuits aren't very successful if there's no law against what they are suing for. sure, you can draw up a lawsuit on anything a lawyer is willing to let you pay them for, but if there's no law/precedence, then it will likely go nowhere. If there is a law and later, precedence, it makes it much easier to ruin someone's life over having a simple conversation. it's absurd and flies right in the face of "freedom". 

You’re right about not being very successful. We disagree on how this will apply to the classroom though.

Heres my prediction on how this plays out in a couple years. With all the people and celebs calling it the don’t say gay bill it just takes 1 to listen. A teacher is going to use the word “gay” appropriately in the classroom. Someone in the class is going to respond with “oooooh, you can’t say gay, you’re in trouble.” Another kid is going to believe that crap and say something to his parents. Mom is going to see dollar signs and try to cash in. After contacting a bunch of lawyers she finds one that’s desperate and wants the exposure so he takes it on. It makes national news for a week with everyone who said it before saying again that this means you can’t say gay.
Meanwhile the teacher is on paid leave for 6 months, kids are without a teacher. An already struggling school is going to have to pay legal fees. Then when this is over the district is going to pay more fees to the teacher for wrongfully putting him on leave and ruining his career. But by then everyone forgot this story and just remembers the original lawsuit.

I guess I just can't be as flippant about a stupid law that could potentially ruin lives of teachers. 

I actually don’t see anything wrong with the law as I interpret it. Teachers shouldn’t be explaining why someone is gay to an 8 year old. You’re 8 when you start 3rd grade. That doesn’t mean you can’t answer a question or teach discrimination in relation to how it affected gays. It’s never meant that for any of the other topics were not allowed to talk about.
I guess we’re at a stalemate and only time will tell how it really impacts teachers. But if I was in Florida this probably wouldn’t be in my list of 100 things I’m worried about every day at school.

JeBurkhardt

OnWis97 said:

PS...I've known for years that I would never want to go into teaching...helicopter parents, potential false accusations of inappropriate behavior, etc. and it only seems to be getting bleaker.

Forget helicopter parents, they have to deal with lawnmower parents. They aggressively run over anything or anyone that they think gets in the way of making their kids lives perfect. Don't like the grade your kid got, don't think your kid gets to play enough on the team? Just make a stink and start attacking.   

HughFreakingDillon

hahaha lawnmower parents. that's gold. I'm sure my teacher friends will identify with that. 

Ledbetterman10

JeBurkhardt said:

OnWis97 said:

PS...I've known for years that I would never want to go into teaching...helicopter parents, potential false accusations of inappropriate behavior, etc. and it only seems to be getting bleaker.

Forget helicopter parents, they have to deal with lawnmower parents. They aggressively run over anything or anyone that they think gets in the way of making their kids lives perfect. Don't like the grade your kid got, don't think your kid gets to play enough on the team? Just make a stink and start attacking.   

The Juggler

mace1229 said:

HughFreakingDillon said:

mace1229 said:

HughFreakingDillon said:

well, generally lawsuits aren't very successful if there's no law against what they are suing for. sure, you can draw up a lawsuit on anything a lawyer is willing to let you pay them for, but if there's no law/precedence, then it will likely go nowhere. If there is a law and later, precedence, it makes it much easier to ruin someone's life over having a simple conversation. it's absurd and flies right in the face of "freedom". 

You’re right about not being very successful. We disagree on how this will apply to the classroom though.

Heres my prediction on how this plays out in a couple years. With all the people and celebs calling it the don’t say gay bill it just takes 1 to listen. A teacher is going to use the word “gay” appropriately in the classroom. Someone in the class is going to respond with “oooooh, you can’t say gay, you’re in trouble.” Another kid is going to believe that crap and say something to his parents. Mom is going to see dollar signs and try to cash in. After contacting a bunch of lawyers she finds one that’s desperate and wants the exposure so he takes it on. It makes national news for a week with everyone who said it before saying again that this means you can’t say gay.
Meanwhile the teacher is on paid leave for 6 months, kids are without a teacher. An already struggling school is going to have to pay legal fees. Then when this is over the district is going to pay more fees to the teacher for wrongfully putting him on leave and ruining his career. But by then everyone forgot this story and just remembers the original lawsuit.

I guess I just can't be as flippant about a stupid law that could potentially ruin lives of teachers. 

I actually don’t see anything wrong with the law as I interpret it. Teachers shouldn’t be explaining why someone is gay to an 8 year old. You’re 8 when you start 3rd grade. That doesn’t mean you can’t answer a question or teach discrimination in relation to how it affected gays. It’s never meant that for any of the other topics were not allowed to talk about.
I guess we’re at a stalemate and only time will tell how it really impacts teachers. But if I was in Florida this probably wouldn’t be in my list of 100 things I’m worried about every day at school.

The way these states are introducing these new laws and the way they are being covered by the right wing media, it almost feels as if they are asking parents to file lawsuits. I would be shocked if we do not see a big increase in lawsuits over the next few years....because that is what these politicians want. They want to muddy up the waters as best they can. 

HughFreakingDillon

Ledbetterman10 said:

JeBurkhardt said:

OnWis97 said:

PS...I've known for years that I would never want to go into teaching...helicopter parents, potential false accusations of inappropriate behavior, etc. and it only seems to be getting bleaker.

Forget helicopter parents, they have to deal with lawnmower parents. They aggressively run over anything or anyone that they think gets in the way of making their kids lives perfect. Don't like the grade your kid got, don't think your kid gets to play enough on the team? Just make a stink and start attacking.   

100%. and it's the school system encouraging this type of behaviour from the parents. it's nauseating. I feel so lucky to have two star students who are self starters and self reliant. god knows I wasn't. 

JeBurkhardt

Ledbetterman10 said:

JeBurkhardt said:

OnWis97 said:

PS...I've known for years that I would never want to go into teaching...helicopter parents, potential false accusations of inappropriate behavior, etc. and it only seems to be getting bleaker.

Forget helicopter parents, they have to deal with lawnmower parents. They aggressively run over anything or anyone that they think gets in the way of making their kids lives perfect. Don't like the grade your kid got, don't think your kid gets to play enough on the team? Just make a stink and start attacking.   

Unfortunately it happens. My wife loves teaching kids and seeing them learn and achieve, but the rest of it wears on her a lot. Add to it all the laws, rules and documentation she has to be hyper aware of as a special education teacher. I truly don't know how she does it. I couldn't handle it. 

mrussel1

Ledbetterman10 said:

JeBurkhardt said:

OnWis97 said:

PS...I've known for years that I would never want to go into teaching...helicopter parents, potential false accusations of inappropriate behavior, etc. and it only seems to be getting bleaker.

Forget helicopter parents, they have to deal with lawnmower parents. They aggressively run over anything or anyone that they think gets in the way of making their kids lives perfect. Don't like the grade your kid got, don't think your kid gets to play enough on the team? Just make a stink and start attacking.   

Bingo

gimmesometruth27

OnWis97 said:

PS...I've known for years that I would never want to go into teaching...helicopter parents, potential false accusations of inappropriate behavior, etc. and it only seems to be getting bleaker.

imagine being a coach. when i worked as an athletic trainer at a high school a parent tried to sue the school district because their son got cut from the baseball team. fortunately the district backed the coach and nothing came of it.

HughFreakingDillon

gimmesometruth27 said:

OnWis97 said:

PS...I've known for years that I would never want to go into teaching...helicopter parents, potential false accusations of inappropriate behavior, etc. and it only seems to be getting bleaker.

imagine being a coach. when i worked as an athletic trainer at a high school a parent tried to sue the school district because their son got cut from the baseball team. fortunately the district backed the coach and nothing came of it.

And yet people like Gym Jordan become congresspeople. 

mace1229

The Juggler said:

mace1229 said:

HughFreakingDillon said:

mace1229 said:

HughFreakingDillon said:

well, generally lawsuits aren't very successful if there's no law against what they are suing for. sure, you can draw up a lawsuit on anything a lawyer is willing to let you pay them for, but if there's no law/precedence, then it will likely go nowhere. If there is a law and later, precedence, it makes it much easier to ruin someone's life over having a simple conversation. it's absurd and flies right in the face of "freedom". 

You’re right about not being very successful. We disagree on how this will apply to the classroom though.

Heres my prediction on how this plays out in a couple years. With all the people and celebs calling it the don’t say gay bill it just takes 1 to listen. A teacher is going to use the word “gay” appropriately in the classroom. Someone in the class is going to respond with “oooooh, you can’t say gay, you’re in trouble.” Another kid is going to believe that crap and say something to his parents. Mom is going to see dollar signs and try to cash in. After contacting a bunch of lawyers she finds one that’s desperate and wants the exposure so he takes it on. It makes national news for a week with everyone who said it before saying again that this means you can’t say gay.
Meanwhile the teacher is on paid leave for 6 months, kids are without a teacher. An already struggling school is going to have to pay legal fees. Then when this is over the district is going to pay more fees to the teacher for wrongfully putting him on leave and ruining his career. But by then everyone forgot this story and just remembers the original lawsuit.

I guess I just can't be as flippant about a stupid law that could potentially ruin lives of teachers. 

I actually don’t see anything wrong with the law as I interpret it. Teachers shouldn’t be explaining why someone is gay to an 8 year old. You’re 8 when you start 3rd grade. That doesn’t mean you can’t answer a question or teach discrimination in relation to how it affected gays. It’s never meant that for any of the other topics were not allowed to talk about.
I guess we’re at a stalemate and only time will tell how it really impacts teachers. But if I was in Florida this probably wouldn’t be in my list of 100 things I’m worried about every day at school.

The way these states are introducing these new laws and the way they are being covered by the right wing media, it almost feels as if they are asking parents to file lawsuits. I would be shocked if we do not see a big increase in lawsuits over the next few years....because that is what these politicians want. They want to muddy up the waters as best they can. 

I disagree with that. Lots of lawsuits for just uttering the word “gay” isn’t going to look good for them (the politicians). I don’t think they, or hardly anyone, really cares. They just don’t want daily lessons built on what it means to be gay or trans to a 7 year old. Seems reasonable to me. Let’s learn to read and get caught up with math first.

Almost seems like the opposite to me. Not necessarily politicians, but just people/celebrities/social media celebs are exaggerating what these laws actually say so they can be like “look how evil Texas/Florida/the south/any red state,  etc is!” I don’t want to bring up bad feelings for some, but look at a thread that was closed and how that information was just wrong. 

Teachers can’t initiate conversation in a lot of things, but are allowed to answer questions. And a teacher is probably 1000 times more likely to be falsely accused of misconduct than be sued for saying gay, that’s why this is so low o my radar.

The Juggler

Yeah, Mace, I just vehemently disagree. I do not believe there are many 3rd grade teachers currently teaching that stuff to kids, just like there are not many teaching Critical Race Theory. And if there are, it's gotta be such a small number of them that it should not warrant this kind of attention.

This is another battle of their Culture War. This is why they spend countless hours talking about it on Fox and other stations. They riled parents up last year and encouraged them to go to school board meetings to yell about masks and stuff. I look at this as an extension of that, to a degree (albeit a completely different subject). If Desantis runs for president, you can absolutely expect him to run on this as one of his main wedge issues. You just don't spend as much time hyping these kinds of bills up for it to not be a big deal .

Guess we'll see what happens!

gimmesometruth27

The Juggler said:

Yeah, Mace, I just vehemently disagree. I do not believe there are many 3rd grade teachers currently teaching that stuff to kids, just like there are not many teaching Critical Race Theory. And if there are, it's gotta be such a small number of them that it should not warrant this kind of attention.

This is another battle of their Culture War. This is why they spend countless hours talking about it on Fox and other stations. They riled parents up last year and encouraged them to go to school board meetings to yell about masks and stuff. I look at this as an extension of that, to a degree (albeit a completely different subject). If Desantis runs for president, you can absolutely expect him to run on this as one of his main wedge issues. You just don't spend as much time hyping these kinds of bills up for it to not be a big deal .

Guess we'll see what happens!

this new law was a solution in search of a problem.

further proof that the gop is a party of grievance with zero ideas for any legislation of substance.

Lerxst1992

mrussel1 said:

OnWis97 said:

mrussel1 said:

mace1229 said:

mrussel1 said:

mace1229 said:

Halifax2TheMax said:

mace1229 said:

Is Biden referring to that Florida law that the Oscars made fun of? I don’t see how that is anti-trans.

What Flo Rida law are you referring to?

The one where you can’t tak about sex to first and second graders. I didn’t get why at the Oscars tbe hosts were chanting “gay, gay!” Someone told me it was making fun of that law, which has nothing to do with gay or trans.

That's not quite right.  Sex ed is already banned K-5 in Florida.  This law bans discussion of gender issues K-3.  It also allows a parent to sue a school district if they think their child was privy to such a discussion. 

You’re right, I just read a little more about it. I thought it was more broad.
I still don’t see the issue, and part of the problem with labeling it the “don’t say gay bill” and celebrities repeating that is it’s spreading misinformation about what it really says. Nothing that I saw said they can’t say “gay.” 

"Classroom instruction by school personnel or third parties on sexual orientation or gender identity may not occur in kindergarten through grade 3 or in a manner that is not age-appropriate or developmentally appropriate for students in accordance with state standards."
Got that from this NPR article.
https://www.npr.org/2022/03/28/1089221657/dont-say-gay-florida-desantis

You just can’t have classroom instruction about sexual orientation or gender identity. And why would you in first grade? You can still talk about civil rights and discrimination, historical figures who were gay, and so on. Just can’t have classroom instruction about what it means to be gay or a lesson about gender identity. And at 7 years old, leave it up to the parents to have that discussion. I don’t see if a kid asks “what is gay” that if a teacher answers “when someone has 2 daddys” or something like that fitting under this law, that’s not classroom instruction around sexual orientation. 

I think giving parents the right to sue a school for what a teacher might say in class is outrageous.  Here in Virginia, our new (R) governor established a hotline for parents to complain about teachers.  It's also outrageous that we are dividing parents from teachers, as if they are the enemies.  

They are enemies. At least some of them. This is (culture) war.

Teachers deserve our respect and admiration.  We salute the troops and what not, but I'd love to hear a pilot on a plane salute teachers for a change.  We entrust them with our children every day, and pay them squat.  It's disgraceful.  They have to put their own money into their classes as well.  To me, being a teacher is a sacrifice.  

In NY teachers earn a good salary with top benefits. 

mrussel1

Lerxst1992 said:

mrussel1 said:

OnWis97 said:

mrussel1 said:

mace1229 said:

mrussel1 said:

mace1229 said:

Halifax2TheMax said:

mace1229 said:

Is Biden referring to that Florida law that the Oscars made fun of? I don’t see how that is anti-trans.

What Flo Rida law are you referring to?

The one where you can’t tak about sex to first and second graders. I didn’t get why at the Oscars tbe hosts were chanting “gay, gay!” Someone told me it was making fun of that law, which has nothing to do with gay or trans.

That's not quite right.  Sex ed is already banned K-5 in Florida.  This law bans discussion of gender issues K-3.  It also allows a parent to sue a school district if they think their child was privy to such a discussion. 

You’re right, I just read a little more about it. I thought it was more broad.
I still don’t see the issue, and part of the problem with labeling it the “don’t say gay bill” and celebrities repeating that is it’s spreading misinformation about what it really says. Nothing that I saw said they can’t say “gay.” 

"Classroom instruction by school personnel or third parties on sexual orientation or gender identity may not occur in kindergarten through grade 3 or in a manner that is not age-appropriate or developmentally appropriate for students in accordance with state standards."
Got that from this NPR article.
https://www.npr.org/2022/03/28/1089221657/dont-say-gay-florida-desantis

You just can’t have classroom instruction about sexual orientation or gender identity. And why would you in first grade? You can still talk about civil rights and discrimination, historical figures who were gay, and so on. Just can’t have classroom instruction about what it means to be gay or a lesson about gender identity. And at 7 years old, leave it up to the parents to have that discussion. I don’t see if a kid asks “what is gay” that if a teacher answers “when someone has 2 daddys” or something like that fitting under this law, that’s not classroom instruction around sexual orientation. 

I think giving parents the right to sue a school for what a teacher might say in class is outrageous.  Here in Virginia, our new (R) governor established a hotline for parents to complain about teachers.  It's also outrageous that we are dividing parents from teachers, as if they are the enemies.  

They are enemies. At least some of them. This is (culture) war.

Teachers deserve our respect and admiration.  We salute the troops and what not, but I'd love to hear a pilot on a plane salute teachers for a change.  We entrust them with our children every day, and pay them squat.  It's disgraceful.  They have to put their own money into their classes as well.  To me, being a teacher is a sacrifice.  

In NY teachers earn a good salary with top benefits. 

If it's under a 100k then I would not call it good.  Here in Virginia,  average is about 55k. For someone with a masters or bachelor's,  that's not good.  I hire kids out of school for 55 for entry level exempt positions. I wouldn't trust them with my kids 

The Juggler

gimmesometruth27 said:

The Juggler said:

Yeah, Mace, I just vehemently disagree. I do not believe there are many 3rd grade teachers currently teaching that stuff to kids, just like there are not many teaching Critical Race Theory. And if there are, it's gotta be such a small number of them that it should not warrant this kind of attention.

This is another battle of their Culture War. This is why they spend countless hours talking about it on Fox and other stations. They riled parents up last year and encouraged them to go to school board meetings to yell about masks and stuff. I look at this as an extension of that, to a degree (albeit a completely different subject). If Desantis runs for president, you can absolutely expect him to run on this as one of his main wedge issues. You just don't spend as much time hyping these kinds of bills up for it to not be a big deal .

Guess we'll see what happens!

this new law was a solution in search of a problem.

further proof that the gop is a party of grievance with zero ideas for any legislation of substance.

Same thing they did, and are doing, with their new voting restriction laws.