When the vaccine arrives

SPEEDY MCCREADY

So, here in America, when the vaccine is ready and available for mass distribution? Should we all be forced to get it? Anyone who refuses the vaccine? Are their repercussions? Should not getting the vaccine effect your employment? Can employers be allowed to hire someone if they have not gotten the vaccine? Should places of business be allowed to deny service to people who can not show proof that they have been vaccinated?

Is it insane to say we can tie the proof of being vaccinated in to our drivers license or state ID? Or can we be issued a "covid card" by the government proving we have been vaccinated? If every person here in America can get a social security card, then we should also have no problem getting a "covid card".

Can we have scanners at all places of business, including restaurants, bars, etc. etc. ? Before you enter any public establishment you must scan your "covid card" in order to be allowed in? If we can have a billion credit card scanners at every Walgreens and gas station, then why not have a covid scanner as well?

Yes, I realize this all sounds insane, but how insane have our lives been in the last 8 months?

If we want this to finally come to and end, and we truly want to get back to our NORMAL LIVES, how far do we need to go once the vaccine is available?

F Me In The Brain

I feel like I need to see all of the details about the vaccine(s) and have someone who understands how this stuff works, explain those details to me.  At that point I will feel like I can make the best decision.  

brianlux

I can appreciate the concern, but I don't think it will come to that because I think most people will be eager to be vaccinated.  In the 50's, almost every kid was vaccinated for polio.   There were a small number of people who suffered as ill results of the vaccination, but the reduction in cases of that crippling disease far outweighed the negative results and you almost never hear anyone say that the vaccination was a bad idea.  With the huge number of cases of COVID and the millions of deaths, I don't think there will be much resistance to the vaccination.

SPEEDY MCCREADY

brianlux said:

I can appreciate the concern, but I don't think it will come to that because I think most people will be eager to be vaccinated.  In the 50's, almost every kid was vaccinated for polio.   There were a small number of people who suffered as ill results of the vaccination, but the reduction in cases of that crippling disease far outweighed the negative results and you almost never hear anyone say that the vaccination was a bad idea.  With the huge number of cases of COVID and the millions of deaths, I don't think there will be much resistance to the vaccination.

But there will be resistance. There are 330 million Americans? If 25 million refuse? If 50 million refuse? Then the virus just keeps on doing what it does, right? Spreads rapidly like it has for the last 8 months.  And we truly never get back to normal. Hell if only 5 million refuse, then we can never fully move on with our lives, right?

brianlux

SPEEDY MCCREADY said:

brianlux said:

I can appreciate the concern, but I don't think it will come to that because I think most people will be eager to be vaccinated.  In the 50's, almost every kid was vaccinated for polio.   There were a small number of people who suffered as ill results of the vaccination, but the reduction in cases of that crippling disease far outweighed the negative results and you almost never hear anyone say that the vaccination was a bad idea.  With the huge number of cases of COVID and the millions of deaths, I don't think there will be much resistance to the vaccination.

But there will be resistance. There are 330 million Americans? If 25 million refuse? If 50 million refuse? Then the virus just keeps on doing what it does, right? Spreads rapidly like it has for the last 8 months.  And we truly never get back to normal. Hell if only 5 million refuse, then we can never fully move on with our lives, right?

I'm not a doctor, so I don't know this for certain, but don't viruses eventually die out?  Geez, I hope so! 

What's your take, Speedy?  Should the vaccine be mandatory?

SPEEDY MCCREADY

brianlux said:

SPEEDY MCCREADY said:

brianlux said:

I can appreciate the concern, but I don't think it will come to that because I think most people will be eager to be vaccinated.  In the 50's, almost every kid was vaccinated for polio.   There were a small number of people who suffered as ill results of the vaccination, but the reduction in cases of that crippling disease far outweighed the negative results and you almost never hear anyone say that the vaccination was a bad idea.  With the huge number of cases of COVID and the millions of deaths, I don't think there will be much resistance to the vaccination.

But there will be resistance. There are 330 million Americans? If 25 million refuse? If 50 million refuse? Then the virus just keeps on doing what it does, right? Spreads rapidly like it has for the last 8 months.  And we truly never get back to normal. Hell if only 5 million refuse, then we can never fully move on with our lives, right?

I'm not a doctor, so I don't know this for certain, but don't viruses eventually die out?  Geez, I hope so! 

What's your take, Speedy?  Should the vaccine be mandatory?

Ok, my coffee has kicked in, and I am thinking a little clearer. All of us who choose to get the vaccine will be able to get on with our lives. We will no longer be in danger, correct? If that's the case, then I guess those who refuse will have to deal with the repercussions. I guess as long as we are forever no longer in danger, once we get vaccinated, then we don't have to do a national plan as far as proof of being vaccinated. That's as long as its a forever thing. Which I guess that's what the vaccine is all about. A forever solution to not being infected. Though, I still think having employers and business forcing proof of vaccination is not a bad idea. If you have 250 employees, and 50 choose not to get the vaccine, whats to stop all 50 from not catching the virus? We all have seen how this virus spreads.

And YES a very big YES to mandatory vaccine. The last 8 months have been brutal. LETS END THIS.

And now I think of traveling abroad. Should any American thinking of boarding a plane be forced to have proof of being vaccinated? Do we allow Americans to travel abroad without being vaccinated? I say NO WAY! You want to travel abroad? You must be vaccinated. Right? Or do I need more coffee to think this over? Hahahaha

SPEEDY MCCREADY

Anyone entering the USA? Should they be allowed in our country without being vaccinated?

brianlux

This is a tough question.  I tend to bristle at being told "You have to do this!"  But I guess I'd after to agree that it will have to be mandatory.  What bothers me about that is that it shouldn't have to be mandatory.   I would hope everyone would want to end the pandemic!

SPEEDY MCCREADY

brianlux said:

This is a tough question.  I tend to bristle at being told "You have to do this!"  But I guess I'd after to agree that it will have to be mandatory.  What bothers me about that is that it shouldn't have to be mandatory.   I would hope everyone would want to end the pandemic!

Mandatory just makes sense to me. Yes, if 75% of our nation gets the vaccine, then our lives will get back to normal, finally. But what about the other 25%? They just keep spreading the virus amongst each other? And like you said, we just wait for the virus to disappear?

I would hope that you are correct and 99% of us would go and get the vaccine. But in the last 8 months I have lost all faith in human beings. What percent couldn't even put on a silly mask to protect themselves and others. Plus the countless times I have heard someone tell me "This is all BULLSHIT"

Make it mandatory.

oftenreading

Good questions. I've been thinking about some of this already, mostly along the lines of what I will do when a vaccine becomes available, what we should do nationally in terms of the vaccine plan, and how people will react. 

We do need to grapple with the idea of what to do when (not if) people don't agree to get vaccinated, because some initial polls already suggest that at least a 25%, probably a higher percentage, are not keen on the idea of getting a vaccine in the early phases. Many people want to "wait and see" because they're concerned about long term side effects. I personally think it is totally reasonable to want to see initial published data before accepting a vaccine, but we won't have long term data until we have a long term, so lots of people are going to have to take a leap of faith. 

I'm a frontline healthcare worker so, as per the current plans floating around in the media, I'll probably be offered a vaccine early on. I hope I get enough info beforehand to feel like I'm able to make an informed decision. 

oftenreading

SPEEDY MCCREADY said:

brianlux said:

SPEEDY MCCREADY said:

brianlux said:

I can appreciate the concern, but I don't think it will come to that because I think most people will be eager to be vaccinated.  In the 50's, almost every kid was vaccinated for polio.   There were a small number of people who suffered as ill results of the vaccination, but the reduction in cases of that crippling disease far outweighed the negative results and you almost never hear anyone say that the vaccination was a bad idea.  With the huge number of cases of COVID and the millions of deaths, I don't think there will be much resistance to the vaccination.

But there will be resistance. There are 330 million Americans? If 25 million refuse? If 50 million refuse? Then the virus just keeps on doing what it does, right? Spreads rapidly like it has for the last 8 months.  And we truly never get back to normal. Hell if only 5 million refuse, then we can never fully move on with our lives, right?

I'm not a doctor, so I don't know this for certain, but don't viruses eventually die out?  Geez, I hope so! 

What's your take, Speedy?  Should the vaccine be mandatory?

Ok, my coffee has kicked in, and I am thinking a little clearer. All of us who choose to get the vaccine will be able to get on with our lives. We will no longer be in danger, correct? If that's the case, then I guess those who refuse will have to deal with the repercussions. I guess as long as we are forever no longer in danger, once we get vaccinated, then we don't have to do a national plan as far as proof of being vaccinated. That's as long as its a forever thing. Which I guess that's what the vaccine is all about. A forever solution to not being infected. Though, I still think having employers and business forcing proof of vaccination is not a bad idea. If you have 250 employees, and 50 choose not to get the vaccine, whats to stop all 50 from not catching the virus? We all have seen how this virus spreads.

And YES a very big YES to mandatory vaccine. The last 8 months have been brutal. LETS END THIS.

And now I think of traveling abroad. Should any American thinking of boarding a plane be forced to have proof of being vaccinated? Do we allow Americans to travel abroad without being vaccinated? I say NO WAY! You want to travel abroad? You must be vaccinated. Right? Or do I need more coffee to think this over? Hahahaha

Unfortunately no to the bolded point. 

The vaccine won't ever be 100% efficacious. Early estimates of efficacy are good, but time will tell. In any case, some people vaccinated won't gain any useful immunity and some will gain partial but not full immunity. We don't know how long immunity will last, but there are grounds to think it won't be forever. 

We need to aim to vaccinate a large majority of the population but we don't need to vaccinate 100%. Once there are few potential reservoirs then the virus will have a hard time spreading further, even though there will probably still be sporadic cases. 

brianlux

oftenreading said:

Good questions. I've been thinking about some of this already, mostly along the lines of what I will do when a vaccine becomes available, what we should do nationally in terms of the vaccine plan, and how people will react. 

We do need to grapple with the idea of what to do when (not if) people don't agree to get vaccinated, because some initial polls already suggest that at least a 25%, probably a higher percentage, are not keen on the idea of getting a vaccine in the early phases. Many people want to "wait and see" because they're concerned about long term side effects. I personally think it is totally reasonable to want to see initial published data before accepting a vaccine, but we won't have long term data until we have a long term, so lots of people are going to have to take a leap of faith. 

I'm a frontline healthcare worker so, as per the current plans floating around in the media, I'll probably be offered a vaccine early on. I hope I get enough info beforehand to feel like I'm able to make an informed decision. 

I totally agree.  But then, that's easy for me to say because now that I'm in a position to work only as much as I want to, I am able to stay home and away from people as much as I want and thus am in a better position to wait until the vaccine is proven to be safe.  I might have a different viewpoint if I were still working full-time or in school and more willing to take my chances on a newly released vaccine. 

I hope you do get the answers you hope for.  And again, as always, my sincerest gratitude for your work on the front line.  You who are in healthcare workers are heroes and I can't thank you enough!

SPEEDY MCCREADY

brianlux said:

oftenreading said:

Good questions. I've been thinking about some of this already, mostly along the lines of what I will do when a vaccine becomes available, what we should do nationally in terms of the vaccine plan, and how people will react. 

We do need to grapple with the idea of what to do when (not if) people don't agree to get vaccinated, because some initial polls already suggest that at least a 25%, probably a higher percentage, are not keen on the idea of getting a vaccine in the early phases. Many people want to "wait and see" because they're concerned about long term side effects. I personally think it is totally reasonable to want to see initial published data before accepting a vaccine, but we won't have long term data until we have a long term, so lots of people are going to have to take a leap of faith. 

I'm a frontline healthcare worker so, as per the current plans floating around in the media, I'll probably be offered a vaccine early on. I hope I get enough info beforehand to feel like I'm able to make an informed decision. 

I totally agree.  But then, that's easy for me to say because now that I'm in a position to work only as much as I want to, I am able to stay home and away from people as much as I want and thus am in a better position to wait until the vaccine is proven to be safe.  I might have a different viewpoint if I were still working full-time or in school and more willing to take my chances on a newly released vaccine. 

I hope you do get the answers you hope for.  And again, as always, my sincerest gratitude for your work on the front line.  You who are in healthcare workers are heroes and I can't thank you enough!

So from what I have read.

Pfizer vaccine is 95% effective, with minimal  "side effects?"

If that's the case, they can inject me right now. They can inject it in my eyeballs if that's the case.

That's how sick and tired I am of the last 8 months. If its 95% effective and I grow a 3rd ear due to a side effect? They can still inject me today. I will take a 3rd ear over what we all have been through the last 8 months.

A little humor. Sorry but you know me, I cant resist.

stuckinline

So, if someone already had Covid would they be required to get the vaccine?

SPEEDY MCCREADY

stuckinline said:

So, if someone already had Covid would they be required to get the vaccine?

We have heard of people getting it twice, right?

If that's the fact, then I say yes, they are required to get a vaccination.

oftenreading

stuckinline said:

So, if someone already had Covid would they be required to get the vaccine?

Good question. Still to be determined whether there are significant differences in the immunity developed by vaccination vs. disease. 

PJPOWER

I do not think it should be mandatory from a government/legal level, but I do think it is perfectly acceptable for businesses and schools and immigration to refuse anyone that refuses it.  I just done like government making health decisions for anyone.

JT167846

SPEEDY MCCREADY said:

Anyone entering the USA? Should they be allowed in our country without being vaccinated?

Due to the American response I think people are more reluctant to have people from the USA enter their countries than the other way around. 

I'd say most countries would require a vaccination certificate. If you have been to South America or Africa chances are you would have had a yellow fever jab as it is mandatory in some places. Though the response can be different-landing in Nairobi I was asked if I had my vaccination certificate before I'd even gotten into the terminal building yet in Rio I slid my certificate over and the dude didn't even look at it.

Being a Kiwi I'd say the country would be in uproar if we started to let people in without either vaccine or quarantine.

Meltdown99

COVID-19: Mass vaccination programme could begin 'within a matter of weeks', Hancock says | UK News | Sky News

I'll skip the initial vaccine.  

josevolution

I’m almost certain that the hospital where I work will make it mandatory for everyone who works there to get the vaccine I have zero problem if that’s what administration decides to do! 

brianlux

josevolution said:

I’m almost certain that the hospital where I work will make it mandatory for everyone who works there to get the vaccine I have zero problem if that’s what administration decides to do! 

I wouldn't be surprised if that's the case.  When I worked at our local community health library that was an adjunct of Marshall Hospital, we were required to have flu vaccinations even though the library was (it has since moved) a separate building well away from any medical facilities and was library only.  With COVID, I would think the requirement will be wide spread for any medical facility. 

PJPOWER

brianlux said:

josevolution said:

I’m almost certain that the hospital where I work will make it mandatory for everyone who works there to get the vaccine I have zero problem if that’s what administration decides to do! 

I wouldn't be surprised if that's the case.  When I worked at our local community health library that was an adjunct of Marshall Hospital, we were required to have flu vaccinations even though the library was (it has since moved) a separate building well away from any medical facilities and was library only.  With COVID, I would think the requirement will be wide spread for any medical facility. 

When I was a counselor, we had to all get out flu vaccine.  No one ever batted an eye at it, especially since they gave it out for “free”.  Schools require vaccinations...so I don’t see how this is going to be much different in the legal sense anyways.  Businesses and schools have had a say for a while now.

mcgruff10

I ll definitely get the vaccine but I sure as hell won’t be first.  

brianlux

mcgruff10 said:

I ll definitely get the vaccine but I sure as hell won’t be first.  

My feeling exactly. 

One of my sister's best friends is a fairly recently retired, highly respected doctor and he is advising us to not be the first to get the vaccine.  I'll wait until he thinks it is safe and then get right on it. I'll keep anyone posted who is interested.

oftenreading

brianlux said:

mcgruff10 said:

I ll definitely get the vaccine but I sure as hell won’t be first.  

My feeling exactly. 

One of my sister's best friends is a fairly recently retired, highly respected doctor and he is advising us to not be the first to get the vaccine.  I'll wait until he thinks it is safe and then get right on it. I'll keep anyone posted who is interested.

Well, therein lies the problem. If no one agrees to be “first”, what next? This is one of the issues that will drive down vaccination rates. 

Looked at one way, there is a similar argument of selfishness as with the mask debate, lockdowns, etc  - everyone wants someone else to make a sacrifice. 

F Me In The Brain

Except putting on a mask won't make me shit blood or die from something unseen

bootlegger10

My thought is that it won’t be mandatory.  I am sure for international travel and maybe domestic air travel it may be required to provide proof.  Schools will require it like other vaccines.  Will be interesting what lawsuits come from this.  I don’t think Ticketmaster will be able to require it.  They may try but can’t see private businesses being able to enforce it without massive lawsuits.

It will be interesting to see how this all shakes out.   This largely impacts the elderly and those with other risk factors, so will they end up forcing children to get vaccinated if the teachers can get vaccines if they want?  

brianlux

oftenreading said:

brianlux said:

mcgruff10 said:

I ll definitely get the vaccine but I sure as hell won’t be first.  

My feeling exactly. 

One of my sister's best friends is a fairly recently retired, highly respected doctor and he is advising us to not be the first to get the vaccine.  I'll wait until he thinks it is safe and then get right on it. I'll keep anyone posted who is interested.

Well, therein lies the problem. If no one agrees to be “first”, what next? This is one of the issues that will drive down vaccination rates. 

Looked at one way, there is a similar argument of selfishness as with the mask debate, lockdowns, etc  - everyone wants someone else to make a sacrifice. 

I understand what you are saying and have thought of that.   But first of all, there are many people eager to be first, and for good reason- they are on the front lines.  And secondly, I'm an older, mostly retired adult with a compromised immune system, so my first line of defense is to stay home and stay away from people, so I'm not nearly in as great a need to receive the vaccine.  If I were where I was at earlier in my life- young, strong, healthy, working full time- I would be much more apt to vaccinate early.  It isn't about letting someone else make the sacrifice.

oftenreading

F Me In The Brain said:

Except putting on a mask won't make me shit blood or die from something unseen

Depends on your mask and how often you clean it, I guess

The mask example was admittedly not a perfect parallel. The lockdown issue is a better parallel, I think. 

oftenreading

brianlux said:

oftenreading said:

brianlux said:

mcgruff10 said:

I ll definitely get the vaccine but I sure as hell won’t be first.  

My feeling exactly. 

One of my sister's best friends is a fairly recently retired, highly respected doctor and he is advising us to not be the first to get the vaccine.  I'll wait until he thinks it is safe and then get right on it. I'll keep anyone posted who is interested.

Well, therein lies the problem. If no one agrees to be “first”, what next? This is one of the issues that will drive down vaccination rates. 

Looked at one way, there is a similar argument of selfishness as with the mask debate, lockdowns, etc  - everyone wants someone else to make a sacrifice. 

I understand what you are saying and have thought of that.   But first of all, there are many people eager to be first, and for good reason- they are on the front lines.  And secondly, I'm an older, mostly retired adult with a compromised immune system, so my first line of defense is to stay home and stay away from people, so I'm not nearly in as great a need to receive the vaccine.  If I were where I was at earlier in my life- young, strong, healthy, working full time- I would be much more apt to vaccinate early.  It isn't about letting someone else make the sacrifice.

The older, immune compromised population is exactly the population being targeted for the first wave of vaccinations, as they are most at risk of bad outcomes (mortality or significant morbidity) if they get sick. The young, strong and healthy are probably going to be back of the line, except where they work in health care, are first responders, or are otherwise essential workers.

Vaccinating those most at risk first helps to alleviate much of the weight on the health system, particularly hospitals. 

F Me In The Brain

oftenreading said:

F Me In The Brain said:

Except putting on a mask won't make me shit blood or die from something unseen

Depends on your mask and how often you clean it, I guess

The mask example was admittedly not a perfect parallel. The lockdown issue is a better parallel, I think. 

Good point on the mask!