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#46 President Joe Biden

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    mace1229mace1229 Posts: 8,997
    If our bar is so low that we approve of anything as long as we can find something worse someone else did, then that's a pretty sad bar.
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    The JugglerThe Juggler Behind that bush over there. Posts: 47,258
    mace1229 said:
    If our bar is so low that we approve of anything as long as we can find something worse someone else did, then that's a pretty sad bar.
    2 trillion is a whole lot more than 127 billion, no? 
    chinese-happy.jpg
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    mace1229mace1229 Posts: 8,997
    mace1229 said:
    If our bar is so low that we approve of anything as long as we can find something worse someone else did, then that's a pretty sad bar.
    2 trillion is a whole lot more than 127 billion, no? 
    It is. But has absolutely nothing to do with the current conversation. I think that cut was unnecessary too. But the norm seems to be any time someone points out something Biden did they don't like, is to point out something Trump did they didn't like. 
    Trumps tax cuts have nothing to do with the loan bail out. Why can't we just debate the topic instead of bringing up unrelated spending?
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    The JugglerThe Juggler Behind that bush over there. Posts: 47,258
    edited October 2023
    mace1229 said:
    mace1229 said:
    If our bar is so low that we approve of anything as long as we can find something worse someone else did, then that's a pretty sad bar.
    2 trillion is a whole lot more than 127 billion, no? 
    It is. But has absolutely nothing to do with the current conversation. I think that cut was unnecessary too. But the norm seems to be any time someone points out something Biden did they don't like, is to point out something Trump did they didn't like. 
    Trumps tax cuts have nothing to do with the loan bail out. Why can't we just debate the topic instead of bringing up unrelated spending?
    The issue people seem to be concerned about is that this money is a "hand out" and "free money" for people. Well, I just find it interesting that the amount of this free money pales in comparison to the amount of free money handed out to a different sector of people by the former president who is very likely going to be the republican nominee next year. I saw far less outrage over that compared to this despite the enormous difference in dollar amounts. Seems like a perfectly natural comparison to make since both people will likely be on the ballot again next year. 


    Post edited by The Juggler on
    chinese-happy.jpg
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    Merkin BallerMerkin Baller Posts: 10,475
    edited October 2023
    mace1229 said:
    mace1229 said:
    If our bar is so low that we approve of anything as long as we can find something worse someone else did, then that's a pretty sad bar.
    2 trillion is a whole lot more than 127 billion, no? 
    It is. But has absolutely nothing to do with the current conversation. I think that cut was unnecessary too. But the norm seems to be any time someone points out something Biden did they don't like, is to point out something Trump did they didn't like. 
    Trumps tax cuts have nothing to do with the loan bail out. Why can't we just debate the topic instead of bringing up unrelated spending?
    The issue people seem to be concerned about is that this money is a "hand out" and "free money" for people. Well, I just find it interesting that the amount of this free money pales in comparison to the amount of free money handed out to a different sector of people by the former president who is very likely going to be the republican nominee next year. I saw far less outrage over that compared to this despite the enormous difference in dollar amounts. Seems like a perfectly natural comparison to make since both people will likely be on the ballot again next year. 


    It's no different than the mishandling of classified documents. 

    They were a problem when it was Hillary, but have no impact on tfg's standing as the GOP front runner for 2024.

    The hypocrisy isn't a bug, it's a feature. 
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    The JugglerThe Juggler Behind that bush over there. Posts: 47,258
    mace1229 said:
    mace1229 said:
    If our bar is so low that we approve of anything as long as we can find something worse someone else did, then that's a pretty sad bar.
    2 trillion is a whole lot more than 127 billion, no? 
    It is. But has absolutely nothing to do with the current conversation. I think that cut was unnecessary too. But the norm seems to be any time someone points out something Biden did they don't like, is to point out something Trump did they didn't like. 
    Trumps tax cuts have nothing to do with the loan bail out. Why can't we just debate the topic instead of bringing up unrelated spending?
    The issue people seem to be concerned about is that this money is a "hand out" and "free money" for people. Well, I just find it interesting that the amount of this free money pales in comparison to the amount of free money handed out to a different sector of people by the former president who is very likely going to be the republican nominee next year. I saw far less outrage over that compared to this despite the enormous difference in dollar amounts. Seems like a perfectly natural comparison to make since both people will likely be on the ballot again next year. 


    It's no different than the mishandling of classified documents. 

    They were a problem when it was Hillary, but have no impact on tfg's standing as the GOP front runner for 2024.

    The hypocrisy isn't a bug, it's a feature. 
    And I feel it's disingenuous to act like making those comparison is not warranted or something. The guy will be on the ballot again. Of course it's worth bringing up. 
    chinese-happy.jpg
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    static111static111 Posts: 4,889
    Reading through this it seems like a lot of people are taking the baseline that most people taking out loans are middle or upper middle class with stable families that can help them make educated decisions and support them financially, and that the loans are just a frivolous waste of money.  That really isn't what got us here.  Poor people and lower middle class can't afford college, community or otherwise without loans.  Sure you can opine about how easy it was to pay back in the late 80's or 90's when costs weren't insane and rent was cheap, and I don't mean on campus, that hasn't been the case for at least 20 years though.  The other thing that people seem to be failing to see is that a lot of people did not have financially literate parents especially those from lower incomes to help them make these decisions, and don't forget poor and lower income areas have worse schools with less money and have a hard time bringing in good educators let alone establishing any type of educational system other than teaching to the standardized test so they can continue to get their meagre funding.  So you get people in their teens and 20's that have no idea how money works being told you have to go to school to get ahead that can't afford it and are told that government loans are a very safe and affordable way to go, so they sign next to the x and expect that is how it will go. Then the loans balloon and balloon and never go away.

    Now someone is actually trying to help these people and somehow this is a bad thing and is taking other peoples money, well whose money are they getting?.  Its fucking taxes that we all pay going to citizens that need help.  I would much rather it went to citizens that needed educational help even if some high income people get a little benefit, because no system is perfect.  It beats tax cuts for the rich, money to Ukraine, money to Israel, Trillions to the DoD that is largely unaccounted for, millions to the losing war on drugs etc.  How people can see anything bad about American tax dollars helping out American citizens that need a break is beyond me.  But hey maybe the money would be better spent on law and order and punishing people their whole lives for making uninformed decisions that the educational system and society never equipped them to make predicated on a lie pushed on them from elementary school that that was the best way to get ahead.
    Scio me nihil scire

    There are no kings inside the gates of eden
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    static111static111 Posts: 4,889
    mace1229 said:
    mickeyrat said:
    So adults who agreed to take out a loan, went to the school of their choice, are getting free money now?
    What about families that went without so their kids wouldn't be in debt?
    What about those who chose a school for financials reasons to save money?
    What about those who joined the military to cover the cost?
    What about those who picked a different route so they wouldn't be in debt?
    When do they get their free money?
    .
    mace1229 said:
    Lerxst1992 said:
    shecky said:
    guess what maga.

    biden said he will allow wall funding in exchage for ukraine funding. your side said they would fund ukraine if the wall got funded. 

    there ya go. 

    you can't renege on that.

    this is a master stroke of political chess. choke on it, gop.
    But, according to you, "that money has to be used for what it was appropriated for, so it has to go to the border wall". 
    So, evidently Joey has no authority to "allow wall funding" or anything else, it's not his decision to make.
    JoJo sure plays a mean game of checkers. :| 


    .

    man y’all conservatives got the solution figured out
    I haven't commented here because I understand Biden is following law and wasn't his decision.
    But I have never understood this argument. Just because something isn't 100% successful, we shouldn't do it?
    Isn't most of the gun thread filled with the opposite comments? If a law would prevent just a small percentage of shootings, isn't it worth it?
    There are other factors to debate with about a wall; cost, invasive, etc. But showing a picture of some climbing it isn't a big factor. 

    Scio me nihil scire

    There are no kings inside the gates of eden
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    static111static111 Posts: 4,889
    static111 said:
    mace1229 said:
    mickeyrat said:
    So adults who agreed to take out a loan, went to the school of their choice, are getting free money now?
    What about families that went without so their kids wouldn't be in debt?
    What about those who chose a school for financials reasons to save money?
    What about those who joined the military to cover the cost?
    What about those who picked a different route so they wouldn't be in debt?
    When do they get their free money?
    mace1229 said:
    mickeyrat said:
    So adults who agreed to take out a loan, went to the school of their choice, are getting free money now?
    What about families that went without so their kids wouldn't be in debt?
    What about those who chose a school for financials reasons to save money?
    What about those who joined the military to cover the cost?
    What about those who picked a different route so they wouldn't be in debt?
    When do they get their free money?
    cry harder
    It seems like you are taking the opinion of where is my free money, what about me look what my parents did for me etc.  Rather than being happy that some people are getting help.  It also appears that you think this whole thing was brought on by people making frivolous decisions to go to expensive schools etc.  Most people who are taking out loans are economically disadvantaged and don't really have another choice.  Sure some people that come from higher economic backgrounds or don't need the help, but I have never understood the argument that because something wasn't 100% successful, we shouldn't do it.  What if not helping people do you think our taxes should go to, I mean it all comes down to giving away someone else's free money at the end of the day.
    Scio me nihil scire

    There are no kings inside the gates of eden
  • Options
    static111 said:
    static111 said:
    mace1229 said:
    mickeyrat said:
    So adults who agreed to take out a loan, went to the school of their choice, are getting free money now?
    What about families that went without so their kids wouldn't be in debt?
    What about those who chose a school for financials reasons to save money?
    What about those who joined the military to cover the cost?
    What about those who picked a different route so they wouldn't be in debt?
    When do they get their free money?
    mace1229 said:
    mickeyrat said:
    So adults who agreed to take out a loan, went to the school of their choice, are getting free money now?
    What about families that went without so their kids wouldn't be in debt?
    What about those who chose a school for financials reasons to save money?
    What about those who joined the military to cover the cost?
    What about those who picked a different route so they wouldn't be in debt?
    When do they get their free money?
    cry harder
    It seems like you are taking the opinion of where is my free money, what about me look what my parents did for me etc.  Rather than being happy that some people are getting help.  It also appears that you think this whole thing was brought on by people making frivolous decisions to go to expensive schools etc.  Most people who are taking out loans are economically disadvantaged and don't really have another choice.  Sure some people that come from higher economic backgrounds or don't need the help, but I have never understood the argument that because something wasn't 100% successful, we shouldn't do it.  What if not helping people do you think our taxes should go to, I mean it all comes down to giving away someone else's free money at the end of the day.
    Horatio Alger is alive in well in the ‘Murican psyche. Give tax breaks to the wealthy so they can create the jobs that you’ll work in and if you do it hard enough, you’ll eventually be just like them, if only the oppressive government would get out of the way and stop holding you back or giving things to those lazy “others.” Trickle down.

    I’m fine with “bottom up, middle out.”
    09/15/1998 & 09/16/1998, Mansfield, MA; 08/29/00 08/30/00, Mansfield, MA; 07/02/03, 07/03/03, Mansfield, MA; 09/28/04, 09/29/04, Boston, MA; 09/22/05, Halifax, NS; 05/24/06, 05/25/06, Boston, MA; 07/22/06, 07/23/06, Gorge, WA; 06/27/2008, Hartford; 06/28/08, 06/30/08, Mansfield; 08/18/2009, O2, London, UK; 10/30/09, 10/31/09, Philadelphia, PA; 05/15/10, Hartford, CT; 05/17/10, Boston, MA; 05/20/10, 05/21/10, NY, NY; 06/22/10, Dublin, IRE; 06/23/10, Northern Ireland; 09/03/11, 09/04/11, Alpine Valley, WI; 09/11/11, 09/12/11, Toronto, Ont; 09/14/11, Ottawa, Ont; 09/15/11, Hamilton, Ont; 07/02/2012, Prague, Czech Republic; 07/04/2012 & 07/05/2012, Berlin, Germany; 07/07/2012, Stockholm, Sweden; 09/30/2012, Missoula, MT; 07/16/2013, London, Ont; 07/19/2013, Chicago, IL; 10/15/2013 & 10/16/2013, Worcester, MA; 10/21/2013 & 10/22/2013, Philadelphia, PA; 10/25/2013, Hartford, CT; 11/29/2013, Portland, OR; 11/30/2013, Spokane, WA; 12/04/2013, Vancouver, BC; 12/06/2013, Seattle, WA; 10/03/2014, St. Louis. MO; 10/22/2014, Denver, CO; 10/26/2015, New York, NY; 04/23/2016, New Orleans, LA; 04/28/2016 & 04/29/2016, Philadelphia, PA; 05/01/2016 & 05/02/2016, New York, NY; 05/08/2016, Ottawa, Ont.; 05/10/2016 & 05/12/2016, Toronto, Ont.; 08/05/2016 & 08/07/2016, Boston, MA; 08/20/2016 & 08/22/2016, Chicago, IL; 07/01/2018, Prague, Czech Republic; 07/03/2018, Krakow, Poland; 07/05/2018, Berlin, Germany; 09/02/2018 & 09/04/2018, Boston, MA; 09/08/2022, Toronto, Ont; 09/11/2022, New York, NY; 09/14/2022, Camden, NJ; 09/02/2023, St. Paul, MN;

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    Lerxst1992Lerxst1992 Posts: 6,113
    mace1229 said:
    mace1229 said:
    If our bar is so low that we approve of anything as long as we can find something worse someone else did, then that's a pretty sad bar.
    2 trillion is a whole lot more than 127 billion, no? 
    It is. But has absolutely nothing to do with the current conversation. I think that cut was unnecessary too. But the norm seems to be any time someone points out something Biden did they don't like, is to point out something Trump did they didn't like. 
    Trumps tax cuts have nothing to do with the loan bail out. Why can't we just debate the topic instead of bringing up unrelated spending?
    The issue people seem to be concerned about is that this money is a "hand out" and "free money" for people. Well, I just find it interesting that the amount of this free money pales in comparison to the amount of free money handed out to a different sector of people by the former president who is very likely going to be the republican nominee next year. I saw far less outrage over that compared to this despite the enormous difference in dollar amounts. Seems like a perfectly natural comparison to make since both people will likely be on the ballot again next year. 


    It's no different than the mishandling of classified documents. 

    They were a problem when it was Hillary, but have no impact on tfg's standing as the GOP front runner for 2024.

    The hypocrisy isn't a bug, it's a feature. 


    No one cares, not even democrats, who almost always make the wrong arguments on almost every issue. As a country, both sides, are completely unable to identify and focus on root causes, whether it is immigration or college loans.

    yesterday I posted stats that the USA average college cost is at least double EVERY OTHER COUNTRY, as well as Oxford, a fairly decent university is about 70% cheaper than the average US university. Not. One. Response.

    regarding the hypocrisy angle, during a recent five year term, the 25 wealthiest families enjoyed a $400 billion increase in wealth, while paying $13 billion in taxes. 25 families.


    but as a country, let’s watch the independents and conservatives attack the poor families getting a $10k break on college courses, that far exceed what the rest of the world pays. That’s why we are in debt, sure thing conservatives.
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    mace1229 said:
    mace1229 said:
    If our bar is so low that we approve of anything as long as we can find something worse someone else did, then that's a pretty sad bar.
    2 trillion is a whole lot more than 127 billion, no? 
    It is. But has absolutely nothing to do with the current conversation. I think that cut was unnecessary too. But the norm seems to be any time someone points out something Biden did they don't like, is to point out something Trump did they didn't like. 
    Trumps tax cuts have nothing to do with the loan bail out. Why can't we just debate the topic instead of bringing up unrelated spending?
    The issue people seem to be concerned about is that this money is a "hand out" and "free money" for people. Well, I just find it interesting that the amount of this free money pales in comparison to the amount of free money handed out to a different sector of people by the former president who is very likely going to be the republican nominee next year. I saw far less outrage over that compared to this despite the enormous difference in dollar amounts. Seems like a perfectly natural comparison to make since both people will likely be on the ballot again next year. 


    It's no different than the mishandling of classified documents. 

    They were a problem when it was Hillary, but have no impact on tfg's standing as the GOP front runner for 2024.

    The hypocrisy isn't a bug, it's a feature. 


    No one cares, not even democrats, who almost always make the wrong arguments on almost every issue. As a country, both sides, are completely unable to identify and focus on root causes, whether it is immigration or college loans.

    yesterday I posted stats that the USA average college cost is at least double EVERY OTHER COUNTRY, as well as Oxford, a fairly decent university is about 70% cheaper than the average US university. Not. One. Response.

    regarding the hypocrisy angle, during a recent five year term, the 25 wealthiest families enjoyed a $400 billion increase in wealth, while paying $13 billion in taxes. 25 families.


    but as a country, let’s watch the independents and conservatives attack the poor families getting a $10k break on college courses, that far exceed what the rest of the world pays. That’s why we are in debt, sure thing conservatives.
    I referenced your cost comparison in a subsequent post so there was at least one reference but for me, preaching to the choir. It’s an ignorance and denial that maybe, just maybe, some other country does something better and the US can learn from it, try it, tweak it, and fix our shit. But nah, that’d be smart, might solve the problem and give us nothing to complain about.
    09/15/1998 & 09/16/1998, Mansfield, MA; 08/29/00 08/30/00, Mansfield, MA; 07/02/03, 07/03/03, Mansfield, MA; 09/28/04, 09/29/04, Boston, MA; 09/22/05, Halifax, NS; 05/24/06, 05/25/06, Boston, MA; 07/22/06, 07/23/06, Gorge, WA; 06/27/2008, Hartford; 06/28/08, 06/30/08, Mansfield; 08/18/2009, O2, London, UK; 10/30/09, 10/31/09, Philadelphia, PA; 05/15/10, Hartford, CT; 05/17/10, Boston, MA; 05/20/10, 05/21/10, NY, NY; 06/22/10, Dublin, IRE; 06/23/10, Northern Ireland; 09/03/11, 09/04/11, Alpine Valley, WI; 09/11/11, 09/12/11, Toronto, Ont; 09/14/11, Ottawa, Ont; 09/15/11, Hamilton, Ont; 07/02/2012, Prague, Czech Republic; 07/04/2012 & 07/05/2012, Berlin, Germany; 07/07/2012, Stockholm, Sweden; 09/30/2012, Missoula, MT; 07/16/2013, London, Ont; 07/19/2013, Chicago, IL; 10/15/2013 & 10/16/2013, Worcester, MA; 10/21/2013 & 10/22/2013, Philadelphia, PA; 10/25/2013, Hartford, CT; 11/29/2013, Portland, OR; 11/30/2013, Spokane, WA; 12/04/2013, Vancouver, BC; 12/06/2013, Seattle, WA; 10/03/2014, St. Louis. MO; 10/22/2014, Denver, CO; 10/26/2015, New York, NY; 04/23/2016, New Orleans, LA; 04/28/2016 & 04/29/2016, Philadelphia, PA; 05/01/2016 & 05/02/2016, New York, NY; 05/08/2016, Ottawa, Ont.; 05/10/2016 & 05/12/2016, Toronto, Ont.; 08/05/2016 & 08/07/2016, Boston, MA; 08/20/2016 & 08/22/2016, Chicago, IL; 07/01/2018, Prague, Czech Republic; 07/03/2018, Krakow, Poland; 07/05/2018, Berlin, Germany; 09/02/2018 & 09/04/2018, Boston, MA; 09/08/2022, Toronto, Ont; 09/11/2022, New York, NY; 09/14/2022, Camden, NJ; 09/02/2023, St. Paul, MN;

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    Halifax2TheMaxHalifax2TheMax Posts: 36,581
    edited October 2023
    40 million Muricans signed up in Obamacare. Remember when that was a thing? Repubs should run against it. For sure.
    Post edited by Halifax2TheMax on
    09/15/1998 & 09/16/1998, Mansfield, MA; 08/29/00 08/30/00, Mansfield, MA; 07/02/03, 07/03/03, Mansfield, MA; 09/28/04, 09/29/04, Boston, MA; 09/22/05, Halifax, NS; 05/24/06, 05/25/06, Boston, MA; 07/22/06, 07/23/06, Gorge, WA; 06/27/2008, Hartford; 06/28/08, 06/30/08, Mansfield; 08/18/2009, O2, London, UK; 10/30/09, 10/31/09, Philadelphia, PA; 05/15/10, Hartford, CT; 05/17/10, Boston, MA; 05/20/10, 05/21/10, NY, NY; 06/22/10, Dublin, IRE; 06/23/10, Northern Ireland; 09/03/11, 09/04/11, Alpine Valley, WI; 09/11/11, 09/12/11, Toronto, Ont; 09/14/11, Ottawa, Ont; 09/15/11, Hamilton, Ont; 07/02/2012, Prague, Czech Republic; 07/04/2012 & 07/05/2012, Berlin, Germany; 07/07/2012, Stockholm, Sweden; 09/30/2012, Missoula, MT; 07/16/2013, London, Ont; 07/19/2013, Chicago, IL; 10/15/2013 & 10/16/2013, Worcester, MA; 10/21/2013 & 10/22/2013, Philadelphia, PA; 10/25/2013, Hartford, CT; 11/29/2013, Portland, OR; 11/30/2013, Spokane, WA; 12/04/2013, Vancouver, BC; 12/06/2013, Seattle, WA; 10/03/2014, St. Louis. MO; 10/22/2014, Denver, CO; 10/26/2015, New York, NY; 04/23/2016, New Orleans, LA; 04/28/2016 & 04/29/2016, Philadelphia, PA; 05/01/2016 & 05/02/2016, New York, NY; 05/08/2016, Ottawa, Ont.; 05/10/2016 & 05/12/2016, Toronto, Ont.; 08/05/2016 & 08/07/2016, Boston, MA; 08/20/2016 & 08/22/2016, Chicago, IL; 07/01/2018, Prague, Czech Republic; 07/03/2018, Krakow, Poland; 07/05/2018, Berlin, Germany; 09/02/2018 & 09/04/2018, Boston, MA; 09/08/2022, Toronto, Ont; 09/11/2022, New York, NY; 09/14/2022, Camden, NJ; 09/02/2023, St. Paul, MN;

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    Gern BlanstenGern Blansten Your Mom's Posts: 17,954
    40 million Muricans signed up in Obamacare. Remember when that was a thing? Repubs should run against it. For sure.
    I can't tell you how many people I talk to that sing it's praises. There are still a lot of people that have avoided using healthcare.gov and just pay for other plans outside of the ACA. Or...they use those healthshare ministries that will likely fuck you over if anything major happens.

    It's been great for us. 
    Remember the Thomas Nine !! (10/02/2018)

    1998: Noblesville; 2003: Noblesville; 2009: EV Nashville, Chicago, Chicago
    2010: St Louis, Columbus, Noblesville; 2011: EV Chicago, East Troy, East Troy
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    2020: Oakland, Oakland:  2021: EV Ohana, Ohana, Ohana, Ohana
    2022: Oakland, Oakland, Nashville, Louisville; 2023: Chicago, Chicago, Noblesville
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    static111static111 Posts: 4,889
    mace1229 said:
    mace1229 said:
    If our bar is so low that we approve of anything as long as we can find something worse someone else did, then that's a pretty sad bar.
    2 trillion is a whole lot more than 127 billion, no? 
    It is. But has absolutely nothing to do with the current conversation. I think that cut was unnecessary too. But the norm seems to be any time someone points out something Biden did they don't like, is to point out something Trump did they didn't like. 
    Trumps tax cuts have nothing to do with the loan bail out. Why can't we just debate the topic instead of bringing up unrelated spending?
    The issue people seem to be concerned about is that this money is a "hand out" and "free money" for people. Well, I just find it interesting that the amount of this free money pales in comparison to the amount of free money handed out to a different sector of people by the former president who is very likely going to be the republican nominee next year. I saw far less outrage over that compared to this despite the enormous difference in dollar amounts. Seems like a perfectly natural comparison to make since both people will likely be on the ballot again next year. 


    It's no different than the mishandling of classified documents. 

    They were a problem when it was Hillary, but have no impact on tfg's standing as the GOP front runner for 2024.

    The hypocrisy isn't a bug, it's a feature. 


    No one cares, not even democrats, who almost always make the wrong arguments on almost every issue. As a country, both sides, are completely unable to identify and focus on root causes, whether it is immigration or college loans.

    yesterday I posted stats that the USA average college cost is at least double EVERY OTHER COUNTRY, as well as Oxford, a fairly decent university is about 70% cheaper than the average US university. Not. One. Response.

    regarding the hypocrisy angle, during a recent five year term, the 25 wealthiest families enjoyed a $400 billion increase in wealth, while paying $13 billion in taxes. 25 families.


    but as a country, let’s watch the independents and conservatives attack the poor families getting a $10k break on college courses, that far exceed what the rest of the world pays. That’s why we are in debt, sure thing conservatives.
    I agreed with your original post and agree with this follow up!
    Scio me nihil scire

    There are no kings inside the gates of eden
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    Lerxst1992Lerxst1992 Posts: 6,113
    Sorry missed those posts! It’s not like we are going to get measured reasonable responses from our conservative friends looking for common ground solutions!
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    mrussel1mrussel1 Posts: 28,628
    static111 said:
    Reading through this it seems like a lot of people are taking the baseline that most people taking out loans are middle or upper middle class with stable families that can help them make educated decisions and support them financially, and that the loans are just a frivolous waste of money.  That really isn't what got us here.  Poor people and lower middle class can't afford college, community or otherwise without loans.  Sure you can opine about how easy it was to pay back in the late 80's or 90's when costs weren't insane and rent was cheap, and I don't mean on campus, that hasn't been the case for at least 20 years though.  The other thing that people seem to be failing to see is that a lot of people did not have financially literate parents especially those from lower incomes to help them make these decisions, and don't forget poor and lower income areas have worse schools with less money and have a hard time bringing in good educators let alone establishing any type of educational system other than teaching to the standardized test so they can continue to get their meagre funding.  So you get people in their teens and 20's that have no idea how money works being told you have to go to school to get ahead that can't afford it and are told that government loans are a very safe and affordable way to go, so they sign next to the x and expect that is how it will go. Then the loans balloon and balloon and never go away.

    Now someone is actually trying to help these people and somehow this is a bad thing and is taking other peoples money, well whose money are they getting?.  Its fucking taxes that we all pay going to citizens that need help.  I would much rather it went to citizens that needed educational help even if some high income people get a little benefit, because no system is perfect.  It beats tax cuts for the rich, money to Ukraine, money to Israel, Trillions to the DoD that is largely unaccounted for, millions to the losing war on drugs etc.  How people can see anything bad about American tax dollars helping out American citizens that need a break is beyond me.  But hey maybe the money would be better spent on law and order and punishing people their whole lives for making uninformed decisions that the educational system and society never equipped them to make predicated on a lie pushed on them from elementary school that that was the best way to get ahead.
    Is this true about low income students? My understanding is that Pell Grants cover tuition at community colleges for low income students.  Further,  there are many schools in the Questbridge family that offer significantly discounted or free tuition.  I'm not saying all schools do this,  but if it look up that group, the number and quality of the schools are very impressive.  

    I think it's the middle and lower middle that are really struggling as they pay full tuition but with no aid.  Many don't qualify for FAFSA.  But I would hope there was better financial literacy in that group.
  • Options
    nicknyr15nicknyr15 Posts: 7,715
    mrussel1 said:
    static111 said:
    Reading through this it seems like a lot of people are taking the baseline that most people taking out loans are middle or upper middle class with stable families that can help them make educated decisions and support them financially, and that the loans are just a frivolous waste of money.  That really isn't what got us here.  Poor people and lower middle class can't afford college, community or otherwise without loans.  Sure you can opine about how easy it was to pay back in the late 80's or 90's when costs weren't insane and rent was cheap, and I don't mean on campus, that hasn't been the case for at least 20 years though.  The other thing that people seem to be failing to see is that a lot of people did not have financially literate parents especially those from lower incomes to help them make these decisions, and don't forget poor and lower income areas have worse schools with less money and have a hard time bringing in good educators let alone establishing any type of educational system other than teaching to the standardized test so they can continue to get their meagre funding.  So you get people in their teens and 20's that have no idea how money works being told you have to go to school to get ahead that can't afford it and are told that government loans are a very safe and affordable way to go, so they sign next to the x and expect that is how it will go. Then the loans balloon and balloon and never go away.

    Now someone is actually trying to help these people and somehow this is a bad thing and is taking other peoples money, well whose money are they getting?.  Its fucking taxes that we all pay going to citizens that need help.  I would much rather it went to citizens that needed educational help even if some high income people get a little benefit, because no system is perfect.  It beats tax cuts for the rich, money to Ukraine, money to Israel, Trillions to the DoD that is largely unaccounted for, millions to the losing war on drugs etc.  How people can see anything bad about American tax dollars helping out American citizens that need a break is beyond me.  But hey maybe the money would be better spent on law and order and punishing people their whole lives for making uninformed decisions that the educational system and society never equipped them to make predicated on a lie pushed on them from elementary school that that was the best way to get ahead.
    Is this true about low income students? My understanding is that Pell Grants cover tuition at community colleges for low income students.  Further,  there are many schools in the Questbridge family that offer significantly discounted or free tuition.  I'm not saying all schools do this,  but if it look up that group, the number and quality of the schools are very impressive.  

    I think it's the middle and lower middle that are really struggling as they pay full tuition but with no aid.  Many don't qualify for FAFSA.  But I would hope there was better financial literacy in that group.
    May I interrupt this for just a second to remind you that you still have the best avatar on the site. And I couldn’t be happier that you’ve kept it this entire time. It puts a smile on my face every time I see it.
  • Options
    mrussel1mrussel1 Posts: 28,628
    nicknyr15 said:
    mrussel1 said:
    static111 said:
    Reading through this it seems like a lot of people are taking the baseline that most people taking out loans are middle or upper middle class with stable families that can help them make educated decisions and support them financially, and that the loans are just a frivolous waste of money.  That really isn't what got us here.  Poor people and lower middle class can't afford college, community or otherwise without loans.  Sure you can opine about how easy it was to pay back in the late 80's or 90's when costs weren't insane and rent was cheap, and I don't mean on campus, that hasn't been the case for at least 20 years though.  The other thing that people seem to be failing to see is that a lot of people did not have financially literate parents especially those from lower incomes to help them make these decisions, and don't forget poor and lower income areas have worse schools with less money and have a hard time bringing in good educators let alone establishing any type of educational system other than teaching to the standardized test so they can continue to get their meagre funding.  So you get people in their teens and 20's that have no idea how money works being told you have to go to school to get ahead that can't afford it and are told that government loans are a very safe and affordable way to go, so they sign next to the x and expect that is how it will go. Then the loans balloon and balloon and never go away.

    Now someone is actually trying to help these people and somehow this is a bad thing and is taking other peoples money, well whose money are they getting?.  Its fucking taxes that we all pay going to citizens that need help.  I would much rather it went to citizens that needed educational help even if some high income people get a little benefit, because no system is perfect.  It beats tax cuts for the rich, money to Ukraine, money to Israel, Trillions to the DoD that is largely unaccounted for, millions to the losing war on drugs etc.  How people can see anything bad about American tax dollars helping out American citizens that need a break is beyond me.  But hey maybe the money would be better spent on law and order and punishing people their whole lives for making uninformed decisions that the educational system and society never equipped them to make predicated on a lie pushed on them from elementary school that that was the best way to get ahead.
    Is this true about low income students? My understanding is that Pell Grants cover tuition at community colleges for low income students.  Further,  there are many schools in the Questbridge family that offer significantly discounted or free tuition.  I'm not saying all schools do this,  but if it look up that group, the number and quality of the schools are very impressive.  

    I think it's the middle and lower middle that are really struggling as they pay full tuition but with no aid.  Many don't qualify for FAFSA.  But I would hope there was better financial literacy in that group.
    May I interrupt this for just a second to remind you that you still have the best avatar on the site. And I couldn’t be happier that you’ve kept it this entire time. It puts a smile on my face every time I see it.
    I'm glad you recognize the natural beauty of fat Ben Affleck staring pensively whilst wearing a bath towel.
  • Options
    nicknyr15nicknyr15 Posts: 7,715
    mrussel1 said:
    nicknyr15 said:
    mrussel1 said:
    static111 said:
    Reading through this it seems like a lot of people are taking the baseline that most people taking out loans are middle or upper middle class with stable families that can help them make educated decisions and support them financially, and that the loans are just a frivolous waste of money.  That really isn't what got us here.  Poor people and lower middle class can't afford college, community or otherwise without loans.  Sure you can opine about how easy it was to pay back in the late 80's or 90's when costs weren't insane and rent was cheap, and I don't mean on campus, that hasn't been the case for at least 20 years though.  The other thing that people seem to be failing to see is that a lot of people did not have financially literate parents especially those from lower incomes to help them make these decisions, and don't forget poor and lower income areas have worse schools with less money and have a hard time bringing in good educators let alone establishing any type of educational system other than teaching to the standardized test so they can continue to get their meagre funding.  So you get people in their teens and 20's that have no idea how money works being told you have to go to school to get ahead that can't afford it and are told that government loans are a very safe and affordable way to go, so they sign next to the x and expect that is how it will go. Then the loans balloon and balloon and never go away.

    Now someone is actually trying to help these people and somehow this is a bad thing and is taking other peoples money, well whose money are they getting?.  Its fucking taxes that we all pay going to citizens that need help.  I would much rather it went to citizens that needed educational help even if some high income people get a little benefit, because no system is perfect.  It beats tax cuts for the rich, money to Ukraine, money to Israel, Trillions to the DoD that is largely unaccounted for, millions to the losing war on drugs etc.  How people can see anything bad about American tax dollars helping out American citizens that need a break is beyond me.  But hey maybe the money would be better spent on law and order and punishing people their whole lives for making uninformed decisions that the educational system and society never equipped them to make predicated on a lie pushed on them from elementary school that that was the best way to get ahead.
    Is this true about low income students? My understanding is that Pell Grants cover tuition at community colleges for low income students.  Further,  there are many schools in the Questbridge family that offer significantly discounted or free tuition.  I'm not saying all schools do this,  but if it look up that group, the number and quality of the schools are very impressive.  

    I think it's the middle and lower middle that are really struggling as they pay full tuition but with no aid.  Many don't qualify for FAFSA.  But I would hope there was better financial literacy in that group.
    May I interrupt this for just a second to remind you that you still have the best avatar on the site. And I couldn’t be happier that you’ve kept it this entire time. It puts a smile on my face every time I see it.
    I'm glad you recognize the natural beauty of fat Ben Affleck staring pensively whilst wearing a bath towel.
    I feel bad for whoever doesn’t. 

    Reading your incredibly intelligent and thought out posts while looking at that pic blows my mind… still after all this time. 
  • Options
    HughFreakingDillonHughFreakingDillon Winnipeg Posts: 35,817
    mrussel1 said:
    nicknyr15 said:
    mrussel1 said:
    static111 said:
    Reading through this it seems like a lot of people are taking the baseline that most people taking out loans are middle or upper middle class with stable families that can help them make educated decisions and support them financially, and that the loans are just a frivolous waste of money.  That really isn't what got us here.  Poor people and lower middle class can't afford college, community or otherwise without loans.  Sure you can opine about how easy it was to pay back in the late 80's or 90's when costs weren't insane and rent was cheap, and I don't mean on campus, that hasn't been the case for at least 20 years though.  The other thing that people seem to be failing to see is that a lot of people did not have financially literate parents especially those from lower incomes to help them make these decisions, and don't forget poor and lower income areas have worse schools with less money and have a hard time bringing in good educators let alone establishing any type of educational system other than teaching to the standardized test so they can continue to get their meagre funding.  So you get people in their teens and 20's that have no idea how money works being told you have to go to school to get ahead that can't afford it and are told that government loans are a very safe and affordable way to go, so they sign next to the x and expect that is how it will go. Then the loans balloon and balloon and never go away.

    Now someone is actually trying to help these people and somehow this is a bad thing and is taking other peoples money, well whose money are they getting?.  Its fucking taxes that we all pay going to citizens that need help.  I would much rather it went to citizens that needed educational help even if some high income people get a little benefit, because no system is perfect.  It beats tax cuts for the rich, money to Ukraine, money to Israel, Trillions to the DoD that is largely unaccounted for, millions to the losing war on drugs etc.  How people can see anything bad about American tax dollars helping out American citizens that need a break is beyond me.  But hey maybe the money would be better spent on law and order and punishing people their whole lives for making uninformed decisions that the educational system and society never equipped them to make predicated on a lie pushed on them from elementary school that that was the best way to get ahead.
    Is this true about low income students? My understanding is that Pell Grants cover tuition at community colleges for low income students.  Further,  there are many schools in the Questbridge family that offer significantly discounted or free tuition.  I'm not saying all schools do this,  but if it look up that group, the number and quality of the schools are very impressive.  

    I think it's the middle and lower middle that are really struggling as they pay full tuition but with no aid.  Many don't qualify for FAFSA.  But I would hope there was better financial literacy in that group.
    May I interrupt this for just a second to remind you that you still have the best avatar on the site. And I couldn’t be happier that you’ve kept it this entire time. It puts a smile on my face every time I see it.
    I'm glad you recognize the natural beauty of fat Ben Affleck staring pensively whilst wearing a bath towel.
    I thoroughly enjoyed it when I clicked on your profile to send you a pm the other day. made me giggle. 
    Flight Risk out NOW!

    www.headstonesband.com




  • Options
    brianluxbrianlux Moving through All Kinds of Terrain. Posts: 40,685
    You're all good in my book.  And other than the far left edge of my photo, most of your avatars are better than my dorky one, so kudos all! 

    So still straying off topic for a second, what is the appeal of Ben Affleck?
    “The fear of death follows from the fear of life. A man [or woman] who lives fully is prepared to die at any time.”
    Variously credited to Mark Twain or Edward Abbey.













  • Options
    mrussel1mrussel1 Posts: 28,628
    brianlux said:
    You're all good in my book.  And other than the far left edge of my photo, most of your avatars are better than my dorky one, so kudos all! 

    So still straying off topic for a second, what is the appeal of Ben Affleck?
    Nothing.  It was some stupid joke that Nick and I were having months ago.  He found a great picture of Ben and Matt Damon surfing like douches.  And I found a bath towel.  We just never changed them back.  I don't even know what the joke was at this point.  
  • Options
    Lerxst1992Lerxst1992 Posts: 6,113
    mrussel1 said:
    brianlux said:
    You're all good in my book.  And other than the far left edge of my photo, most of your avatars are better than my dorky one, so kudos all! 

    So still straying off topic for a second, what is the appeal of Ben Affleck?
    Nothing.  It was some stupid joke that Nick and I were having months ago.  He found a great picture of Ben and Matt Damon surfing like douches.  And I found a bath towel.  We just never changed them back.  I don't even know what the joke was at this point.  

    Hey some of us like the good ole better than something or nothing videos.
  • Options
    brianluxbrianlux Moving through All Kinds of Terrain. Posts: 40,685
    mrussel1 said:
    brianlux said:
    You're all good in my book.  And other than the far left edge of my photo, most of your avatars are better than my dorky one, so kudos all! 

    So still straying off topic for a second, what is the appeal of Ben Affleck?
    Nothing.  It was some stupid joke that Nick and I were having months ago.  He found a great picture of Ben and Matt Damon surfing like douches.  And I found a bath towel.  We just never changed them back.  I don't even know what the joke was at this point.  

    Mystery solved, thank you!
    “The fear of death follows from the fear of life. A man [or woman] who lives fully is prepared to die at any time.”
    Variously credited to Mark Twain or Edward Abbey.













  • Options
    mace1229mace1229 Posts: 8,997
    edited October 2023
    static111 said:
    static111 said:
    mace1229 said:
    mickeyrat said:
    So adults who agreed to take out a loan, went to the school of their choice, are getting free money now?
    What about families that went without so their kids wouldn't be in debt?
    What about those who chose a school for financials reasons to save money?
    What about those who joined the military to cover the cost?
    What about those who picked a different route so they wouldn't be in debt?
    When do they get their free money?
    mace1229 said:
    mickeyrat said:
    So adults who agreed to take out a loan, went to the school of their choice, are getting free money now?
    What about families that went without so their kids wouldn't be in debt?
    What about those who chose a school for financials reasons to save money?
    What about those who joined the military to cover the cost?
    What about those who picked a different route so they wouldn't be in debt?
    When do they get their free money?
    cry harder
    It seems like you are taking the opinion of where is my free money, what about me look what my parents did for me etc.  Rather than being happy that some people are getting help.  It also appears that you think this whole thing was brought on by people making frivolous decisions to go to expensive schools etc.  Most people who are taking out loans are economically disadvantaged and don't really have another choice.  Sure some people that come from higher economic backgrounds or don't need the help, but I have never understood the argument that because something wasn't 100% successful, we shouldn't do it.  What if not helping people do you think our taxes should go to, I mean it all comes down to giving away someone else's free money at the end of the day.
    My intention was not to ask where my free money is. Just on principal, I believe if you chose to borrow money, you pay it back. 
    Someone mentioned university of Alabama. I just looked it up, 58% of the students are out of state. That is insane to me. There is almost no effort to minimize the cost. Tuition is 12k for in state and 32k for out of state. More than half the students are choosing to pay triple the cost to attend that school. It’s not just low-income people trying to dig their way out of poverty. Adults are choosing to spend far more on education than they need to: there’s almost no effort to minimize the cost. Unless you’re in a wealthy family, private or out of state schools shouldn’t even be an option. And as I mentioned, most don’t even consider jr college for gen Ed credits either. 
    Asking what we should spend the money on instead implies we just have this surplus of money waiting to be spent. If that were the case, then great. But it’s not. Our spending is out of control. It’s liking realizing your budget is off and you spend $500 more a month than you make and your wife tells you to stop buying vinyl. Then you ask well what do you want me to spend that $500 on then? Don’t spend it.

    But if we have to spend it, I’d be more for subsidizing medical costs. It’s insane. People get stuck with thousands of dollars in medical bills for something they didn’t want or ask for, but also need to better their lives.
    Post edited by mace1229 on
  • Options
    brianluxbrianlux Moving through All Kinds of Terrain. Posts: 40,685
    edited October 2023
    What makes more sense to me is advocating for lowering the cost of education, in the meantime start at a community college and get the required course out of the way for less money, and for young adults, consider the alternatives to college like apprenticeships or trade school.  I don't know if this is true everywhere, but in my county there is a HUGE shortage of skilled trades people- carpenters, plumbers, electricians, hair cutters, etc., etc., and those who do work in those fields here and are good at what they do are making a killing.  I'm too old to do some of thing things I used to around here and, man, it's costing me big time

    Edit: also, why the all or nothing thinking?  Why write off these loans completely?  Why not reduce the loans to a reasonable amount?  Why is the logic missing here?
    Post edited by brianlux on
    “The fear of death follows from the fear of life. A man [or woman] who lives fully is prepared to die at any time.”
    Variously credited to Mark Twain or Edward Abbey.













  • Options
    mickeyratmickeyrat up my ass, like Chadwick was up his Posts: 35,700
    static111 said:
    Reading through this it seems like a lot of people are taking the baseline that most people taking out loans are middle or upper middle class with stable families that can help them make educated decisions and support them financially, and that the loans are just a frivolous waste of money.  That really isn't what got us here.  Poor people and lower middle class can't afford college, community or otherwise without loans.  Sure you can opine about how easy it was to pay back in the late 80's or 90's when costs weren't insane and rent was cheap, and I don't mean on campus, that hasn't been the case for at least 20 years though.  The other thing that people seem to be failing to see is that a lot of people did not have financially literate parents especially those from lower incomes to help them make these decisions, and don't forget poor and lower income areas have worse schools with less money and have a hard time bringing in good educators let alone establishing any type of educational system other than teaching to the standardized test so they can continue to get their meagre funding.  So you get people in their teens and 20's that have no idea how money works being told you have to go to school to get ahead that can't afford it and are told that government loans are a very safe and affordable way to go, so they sign next to the x and expect that is how it will go. Then the loans balloon and balloon and never go away.

    Now someone is actually trying to help these people and somehow this is a bad thing and is taking other peoples money, well whose money are they getting?.  Its fucking taxes that we all pay going to citizens that need help.  I would much rather it went to citizens that needed educational help even if some high income people get a little benefit, because no system is perfect.  It beats tax cuts for the rich, money to Ukraine, money to Israel, Trillions to the DoD that is largely unaccounted for, millions to the losing war on drugs etc.  How people can see anything bad about American tax dollars helping out American citizens that need a break is beyond me.  But hey maybe the money would be better spent on law and order and punishing people their whole lives for making uninformed decisions that the educational system and society never equipped them to make predicated on a lie pushed on them from elementary school that that was the best way to get ahead.

    FINALLY. A serious post.

    thank you for this. well thought out and spoken. full agreement here.
    _____________________________________SIGNATURE________________________________________________

    Not today Sir, Probably not tomorrow.............................................. bayfront arena st. pete '94
    you're finally here and I'm a mess................................................... nationwide arena columbus '10
    memories like fingerprints are slowly raising.................................... first niagara center buffalo '13
    another man ..... moved by sleight of hand...................................... joe louis arena detroit '14
  • Options
    mickeyratmickeyrat up my ass, like Chadwick was up his Posts: 35,700
    _____________________________________SIGNATURE________________________________________________

    Not today Sir, Probably not tomorrow.............................................. bayfront arena st. pete '94
    you're finally here and I'm a mess................................................... nationwide arena columbus '10
    memories like fingerprints are slowly raising.................................... first niagara center buffalo '13
    another man ..... moved by sleight of hand...................................... joe louis arena detroit '14
  • Options
    mrussel1mrussel1 Posts: 28,628
    mrussel1 said:
    brianlux said:
    You're all good in my book.  And other than the far left edge of my photo, most of your avatars are better than my dorky one, so kudos all! 

    So still straying off topic for a second, what is the appeal of Ben Affleck?
    Nothing.  It was some stupid joke that Nick and I were having months ago.  He found a great picture of Ben and Matt Damon surfing like douches.  And I found a bath towel.  We just never changed them back.  I don't even know what the joke was at this point.  

    Hey some of us like the good ole better than something or nothing videos.
    Wait until you see the shit from this past tour. 
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