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*** President Joe Biden & Vice President Kamala Harris ***

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  • mickeyratmickeyrat Posts: 21,289
    mickeyrat said:
    Had the Dems operated as Obama is suggesting here, they might not be in a position where they need to sweat out a couple long shot runoffs in Georgia to reclaim the senate. Thank god Joe Biden was at the top of the ticket


    unfortunately all that is too long for a hashtag. 

    well it IS obama..... that dude can talk.
    he can, very eloquently and intelligently. my point is if it doesn't fit into a cute little sound bite, no one pays attention. 

    yeah. I guessed thats what you meant. so if a person or group is pushing a policy agenda via twitter and a hashtag, umm fuck you.

    you simply cannot impart all the necessary nuance in some of these bold ideas. #defundthepolice is a prime example. how in the fuck is anyone supposed to glean its around a shift in dollars to social services etc that would help prevent a police call in the first place. changes need to happen sooner rather than later but thats no way to get people on board.
    _____________________________________SIGNATURE________________________________________________

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  • CM189191CM189191 Minneapolis via ChicagoPosts: 6,211
    Had the Dems operated as Obama is suggesting here, they might not be in a position where they need to sweat out a couple long shot runoffs in Georgia to reclaim the senate. Thank god Joe Biden was at the top of the ticket


    Sorry Obama, I love you, but this is a horseshit take.

    People have been shouting Reform the Police for years.  It didn't work and police kept killing black folks.

    Now we are calling to Defund the Police, now people are listening.  And it's happening, too.  Here in Minneapolis to the tune of $8,000,000

    https://www.mprnews.org/story/2020/11/30/minneapolis-mayor-calls-proposed-police-cuts-irresponsible

    To put that into perspective,  2021 budget sets police department funding at $179,000,000

    $8M is 7.4% reduction in spending on police

    For additional perspective, Minneapolis proposed city budget is $1.47 Billion (down 6% from last year).  That makes the Police budget 12% of the total budget.

    http://www2.minneapolismn.gov/www/groups/public/@finance/documents/webcontent/wcmsp-226230.pdf

    In summary, ACAB and Fuck the Police

    WI 6/27/98 WI 10/8/00 MO 10/11/00 IL 4/23/03 MN 6/26/06 MN 6/27/06 WI 6/30/06 IL 8/5/07 IL 8/21/08 (EV) IL 8/22/08 (EV) IL 8/23/09 IL 8/24/09 IN 5/7/10 IL 6/28/11 (EV) IL 6/29/11 (EV) WI 9/3/11 WI 9/4/11 IL 7/19/13 NE 10/09/14 IL 10/17/14 MN 10/19/14 FL 4/11/16 IL 8/20/16 IL 8/22/16 IL 08/18/18 IL 08/20/18 IT 07/05/2020 AT 07/07/2020
  • The JugglerThe Juggler Behind that bush over there.Posts: 39,937
    CM189191 said:
    Had the Dems operated as Obama is suggesting here, they might not be in a position where they need to sweat out a couple long shot runoffs in Georgia to reclaim the senate. Thank god Joe Biden was at the top of the ticket


    Sorry Obama, I love you, but this is a horseshit take.

    People have been shouting Reform the Police for years.  It didn't work and police kept killing black folks.

    Now we are calling to Defund the Police, now people are listening.  And it's happening, too.  Here in Minneapolis to the tune of $8,000,000

    https://www.mprnews.org/story/2020/11/30/minneapolis-mayor-calls-proposed-police-cuts-irresponsible

    To put that into perspective,  2021 budget sets police department funding at $179,000,000

    $8M is 7.4% reduction in spending on police

    For additional perspective, Minneapolis proposed city budget is $1.47 Billion (down 6% from last year).  That makes the Police budget 12% of the total budget.

    http://www2.minneapolismn.gov/www/groups/public/@finance/documents/webcontent/wcmsp-226230.pdf

    In summary, ACAB and Fuck the Police

    People are listening? It very likely cost the democrats the chance of regaining the senate. That is nice that you are getting some things done in Minnesota but real reform won't happen until you're able to communicate with the other half of the electorate more effectively. Messaging plays a huge factor. I think, and apparently Obama agrees, that "Defund the Police" is horrible messaging unless you're a member of the far left. 
    chinese-happy.jpg
  • CM189191CM189191 Minneapolis via ChicagoPosts: 6,211
    CM189191 said:
    Had the Dems operated as Obama is suggesting here, they might not be in a position where they need to sweat out a couple long shot runoffs in Georgia to reclaim the senate. Thank god Joe Biden was at the top of the ticket


    Sorry Obama, I love you, but this is a horseshit take.

    People have been shouting Reform the Police for years.  It didn't work and police kept killing black folks.

    Now we are calling to Defund the Police, now people are listening.  And it's happening, too.  Here in Minneapolis to the tune of $8,000,000

    https://www.mprnews.org/story/2020/11/30/minneapolis-mayor-calls-proposed-police-cuts-irresponsible

    To put that into perspective,  2021 budget sets police department funding at $179,000,000

    $8M is 7.4% reduction in spending on police

    For additional perspective, Minneapolis proposed city budget is $1.47 Billion (down 6% from last year).  That makes the Police budget 12% of the total budget.

    http://www2.minneapolismn.gov/www/groups/public/@finance/documents/webcontent/wcmsp-226230.pdf

    In summary, ACAB and Fuck the Police

    People are listening? It very likely cost the democrats the chance of regaining the senate. That is nice that you are getting some things done in Minnesota but real reform won't happen until you're able to communicate with the other half of the electorate more effectively. Messaging plays a huge factor. I think, and apparently Obama agrees, that "Defund the Police" is horrible messaging unless you're a member of the far left. 
    Fuck the other half of the electorate. If people in backward ass Kentucky want to live in a poverty stricken police state, let them. States like Minnesota will continue to leave them in the dust. Defund Kentucky!
    WI 6/27/98 WI 10/8/00 MO 10/11/00 IL 4/23/03 MN 6/26/06 MN 6/27/06 WI 6/30/06 IL 8/5/07 IL 8/21/08 (EV) IL 8/22/08 (EV) IL 8/23/09 IL 8/24/09 IN 5/7/10 IL 6/28/11 (EV) IL 6/29/11 (EV) WI 9/3/11 WI 9/4/11 IL 7/19/13 NE 10/09/14 IL 10/17/14 MN 10/19/14 FL 4/11/16 IL 8/20/16 IL 8/22/16 IL 08/18/18 IL 08/20/18 IT 07/05/2020 AT 07/07/2020
  • static111static111 Posts: 2,539
    Had the Dems operated as Obama is suggesting here, they might not be in a position where they need to sweat out a couple long shot runoffs in Georgia to reclaim the senate. Thank god Joe Biden was at the top of the ticket


    Wait I thought “defund the police” was bad because you had to explain it? But apparently whatever that diarrhea is, is somehow much easier for people to digest 🙄.  This putting aside that no politician ran on the defund the police platform. 
  • static111static111 Posts: 2,539
    edited December 2020
    CM189191 said:
    Had the Dems operated as Obama is suggesting here, they might not be in a position where they need to sweat out a couple long shot runoffs in Georgia to reclaim the senate. Thank god Joe Biden was at the top of the ticket


    Sorry Obama, I love you, but this is a horseshit take.

    People have been shouting Reform the Police for years.  It didn't work and police kept killing black folks.

    Now we are calling to Defund the Police, now people are listening.  And it's happening, too.  Here in Minneapolis to the tune of $8,000,000

    https://www.mprnews.org/story/2020/11/30/minneapolis-mayor-calls-proposed-police-cuts-irresponsible

    To put that into perspective,  2021 budget sets police department funding at $179,000,000

    $8M is 7.4% reduction in spending on police

    For additional perspective, Minneapolis proposed city budget is $1.47 Billion (down 6% from last year).  That makes the Police budget 12% of the total budget.

    http://www2.minneapolismn.gov/www/groups/public/@finance/documents/webcontent/wcmsp-226230.pdf

    In summary, ACAB and Fuck the Police

    This is exactly how I feel. Here in Austin we defunded the budget a symbolic $150 million and that translates to $20million actual reduction in budget which is great.  Also we are tearing down the main police station that runs up against I35. The time for incrementalism and getting the other side on board is over. Nothing has changed in 30 plus years. It’s time for drastic action. Time may heal all wounds eventually but direct action works faster.
  • The JugglerThe Juggler Behind that bush over there.Posts: 39,937
    static111 said:
    Had the Dems operated as Obama is suggesting here, they might not be in a position where they need to sweat out a couple long shot runoffs in Georgia to reclaim the senate. Thank god Joe Biden was at the top of the ticket


    Wait I thought “defund the police” was bad because you had to explain it? But apparently whatever that diarrhea is, is somehow much easier for people to digest 🙄.  This putting aside that no politician ran on the defund the police platform. 
    Hey how'd flipping the senate work out for democrats? How about not saying "defund the police" at all because it sounds to casual observers that you want to just get rid of the fucking police. lol. 

    It doesn't matter if anyone specifically ran on "defunding the police" or not. The moment it became a thing and a slogan and a hashtag for the left, Trump and the republicans seized on it because they knew it would benefit them more politically and they were right. That is why they tried to make it seem as if Biden wanted to defund the police when he came out said the opposite. I live in suburban Philadelphia and every republican ad mentioned it. Not lying. Literally every single one. It was absolute horseshit but it didn't matter. Didn't matter if the candidate they were targeting was for or against it. They managed to successfully brand most of the democrats as lawless hippies who wanted to abolish the police force. 

    That's what I am talking about. I know they do not really want to abolish the police. But republicans made a lot of people believe that is what they intended and as a result.......the democrats are left hoping for two hail mary's in Georgia next month. 
    chinese-happy.jpg
  • The JugglerThe Juggler Behind that bush over there.Posts: 39,937
    edited December 2020
    CM189191 said:
    CM189191 said:
    Had the Dems operated as Obama is suggesting here, they might not be in a position where they need to sweat out a couple long shot runoffs in Georgia to reclaim the senate. Thank god Joe Biden was at the top of the ticket


    Sorry Obama, I love you, but this is a horseshit take.

    People have been shouting Reform the Police for years.  It didn't work and police kept killing black folks.

    Now we are calling to Defund the Police, now people are listening.  And it's happening, too.  Here in Minneapolis to the tune of $8,000,000

    https://www.mprnews.org/story/2020/11/30/minneapolis-mayor-calls-proposed-police-cuts-irresponsible

    To put that into perspective,  2021 budget sets police department funding at $179,000,000

    $8M is 7.4% reduction in spending on police

    For additional perspective, Minneapolis proposed city budget is $1.47 Billion (down 6% from last year).  That makes the Police budget 12% of the total budget.

    http://www2.minneapolismn.gov/www/groups/public/@finance/documents/webcontent/wcmsp-226230.pdf

    In summary, ACAB and Fuck the Police

    People are listening? It very likely cost the democrats the chance of regaining the senate. That is nice that you are getting some things done in Minnesota but real reform won't happen until you're able to communicate with the other half of the electorate more effectively. Messaging plays a huge factor. I think, and apparently Obama agrees, that "Defund the Police" is horrible messaging unless you're a member of the far left. 
    Fuck the other half of the electorate. If people in backward ass Kentucky want to live in a poverty stricken police state, let them. States like Minnesota will continue to leave them in the dust. Defund Kentucky!
    Well, yeah, but...... it's attitudes like that that help explain why republicans are likely going to retain the senate. 

    You can say "fuck the other half of the electorate" and think your side is right all the time, all you want. But you still need a portion of those voters to vote for your candidates, and alienating them with dumb slogans that don't even really mean what they say ain't the way to do it, sister!
    Post edited by The Juggler on
    chinese-happy.jpg
  • CM189191CM189191 Minneapolis via ChicagoPosts: 6,211
    static111 said:
    Had the Dems operated as Obama is suggesting here, they might not be in a position where they need to sweat out a couple long shot runoffs in Georgia to reclaim the senate. Thank god Joe Biden was at the top of the ticket


    Wait I thought “defund the police” was bad because you had to explain it? But apparently whatever that diarrhea is, is somehow much easier for people to digest 🙄.  This putting aside that no politician ran on the defund the police platform. 
    Hey how'd flipping the senate work out for democrats? How about not saying "defund the police" at all because it sounds to casual observers that you want to just get rid of the fucking police. lol. 

    It doesn't matter if anyone specifically ran on "defunding the police" or not. The moment it became a thing and a slogan and a hashtag for the left, Trump and the republicans seized on it because they knew it would benefit them more politically and they were right. That is why they tried to make it seem as if Biden wanted to defund the police when he came out said the opposite. I live in suburban Philadelphia and every republican ad mentioned it. Not lying. Literally every single one. It was absolute horseshit but it didn't matter. Didn't matter if the candidate they were targeting was for or against it. They managed to successfully brand most of the democrats as lawless hippies who wanted to abolish the police force. 

    That's what I am talking about. I know they do not really want to abolish the police. But republicans made a lot of people believe that is what they intended and as a result.......the democrats are left hoping for two hail mary's in Georgia next month. 

    Lawless hippies who want to abolish the police force? Those are libertarians. And libertarians are just embarrassed Republicans.

    Who cares what the other side's messaging is? Just ignore them and move forward. Let them wallow in their own squalor.  Don't give them credibility by saying " no no no that's not what we meant ". 

    Defund the police is exactly what we meant.  And they should pray we don't alter the agreement further. Disband the police, disband ICE, defund the military. 
    WI 6/27/98 WI 10/8/00 MO 10/11/00 IL 4/23/03 MN 6/26/06 MN 6/27/06 WI 6/30/06 IL 8/5/07 IL 8/21/08 (EV) IL 8/22/08 (EV) IL 8/23/09 IL 8/24/09 IN 5/7/10 IL 6/28/11 (EV) IL 6/29/11 (EV) WI 9/3/11 WI 9/4/11 IL 7/19/13 NE 10/09/14 IL 10/17/14 MN 10/19/14 FL 4/11/16 IL 8/20/16 IL 8/22/16 IL 08/18/18 IL 08/20/18 IT 07/05/2020 AT 07/07/2020
  • CM189191CM189191 Minneapolis via ChicagoPosts: 6,211
    CM189191 said:
    static111 said:
    Had the Dems operated as Obama is suggesting here, they might not be in a position where they need to sweat out a couple long shot runoffs in Georgia to reclaim the senate. Thank god Joe Biden was at the top of the ticket


    Wait I thought “defund the police” was bad because you had to explain it? But apparently whatever that diarrhea is, is somehow much easier for people to digest 🙄.  This putting aside that no politician ran on the defund the police platform. 
    Hey how'd flipping the senate work out for democrats? How about not saying "defund the police" at all because it sounds to casual observers that you want to just get rid of the fucking police. lol. 

    It doesn't matter if anyone specifically ran on "defunding the police" or not. The moment it became a thing and a slogan and a hashtag for the left, Trump and the republicans seized on it because they knew it would benefit them more politically and they were right. That is why they tried to make it seem as if Biden wanted to defund the police when he came out said the opposite. I live in suburban Philadelphia and every republican ad mentioned it. Not lying. Literally every single one. It was absolute horseshit but it didn't matter. Didn't matter if the candidate they were targeting was for or against it. They managed to successfully brand most of the democrats as lawless hippies who wanted to abolish the police force. 

    That's what I am talking about. I know they do not really want to abolish the police. But republicans made a lot of people believe that is what they intended and as a result.......the democrats are left hoping for two hail mary's in Georgia next month. 

    Lawless hippies who want to abolish the police force? Those are libertarians. And libertarians are just embarrassed Republicans.

    Who cares what the other side's messaging is? Just ignore them and move forward. Let them wallow in their own squalor.  Don't give them credibility by saying " no no no that's not what we meant ". 

    Defund the police is exactly what we meant.  And they should pray we don't alter the agreement further. Disband the police, disband ICE, defund the military. 
    I forgot about DHS and TSA, fuck those guys too
    WI 6/27/98 WI 10/8/00 MO 10/11/00 IL 4/23/03 MN 6/26/06 MN 6/27/06 WI 6/30/06 IL 8/5/07 IL 8/21/08 (EV) IL 8/22/08 (EV) IL 8/23/09 IL 8/24/09 IN 5/7/10 IL 6/28/11 (EV) IL 6/29/11 (EV) WI 9/3/11 WI 9/4/11 IL 7/19/13 NE 10/09/14 IL 10/17/14 MN 10/19/14 FL 4/11/16 IL 8/20/16 IL 8/22/16 IL 08/18/18 IL 08/20/18 IT 07/05/2020 AT 07/07/2020
  • static111static111 Posts: 2,539
    static111 said:
    Had the Dems operated as Obama is suggesting here, they might not be in a position where they need to sweat out a couple long shot runoffs in Georgia to reclaim the senate. Thank god Joe Biden was at the top of the ticket


    Wait I thought “defund the police” was bad because you had to explain it? But apparently whatever that diarrhea is, is somehow much easier for people to digest 🙄.  This putting aside that no politician ran on the defund the police platform. 
    Hey how'd flipping the senate work out for democrats? How about not saying "defund the police" at all because it sounds to casual observers that you want to just get rid of the fucking police. lol. 

    It doesn't matter if anyone specifically ran on "defunding the police" or not. The moment it became a thing and a slogan and a hashtag for the left, Trump and the republicans seized on it because they knew it would benefit them more politically and they were right. That is why they tried to make it seem as if Biden wanted to defund the police when he came out said the opposite. I live in suburban Philadelphia and every republican ad mentioned it. Not lying. Literally every single one. It was absolute horseshit but it didn't matter. Didn't matter if the candidate they were targeting was for or against it. They managed to successfully brand most of the democrats as lawless hippies who wanted to abolish the police force. 

    That's what I am talking about. I know they do not really want to abolish the police. But republicans made a lot of people believe that is what they intended and as a result.......the democrats are left hoping for two hail mary's in Georgia next month. 
    Some people do want to abolish the police.  I think the millions fighting in the streets getting tear gassed tazed,bean bagged beaten by the police etc, care fuck all about electability.  It’s a horrible problem.  Flipping the senate didn’t happen because of “defund the police” give me a break and cry me a River.  Run on issues that aren’t “hey we aren’t racist Trump syncophants” lol.  Embrace making healthcare affordable, embrace universal programs, embrace raising the minimum wage and protecting and growing the power of labor unions, come out in support  for reparations for blacks and native Americans, be a true progressive party that’s what’s needed to get a groundswell of support.  Simply running on nothing will fundamentally change and more incrementalism as a stop against the Republican drag to the right is exactly what got us here.  Sorry , but if the prevailing theory is “defund the police” was the problem and not “moderate pragmatic change” then the Dems will likely get slaughtered in 22 and 24.
  • The JugglerThe Juggler Behind that bush over there.Posts: 39,937
    CM189191 said:
    CM189191 said:
    static111 said:
    Had the Dems operated as Obama is suggesting here, they might not be in a position where they need to sweat out a couple long shot runoffs in Georgia to reclaim the senate. Thank god Joe Biden was at the top of the ticket


    Wait I thought “defund the police” was bad because you had to explain it? But apparently whatever that diarrhea is, is somehow much easier for people to digest 🙄.  This putting aside that no politician ran on the defund the police platform. 
    Hey how'd flipping the senate work out for democrats? How about not saying "defund the police" at all because it sounds to casual observers that you want to just get rid of the fucking police. lol. 

    It doesn't matter if anyone specifically ran on "defunding the police" or not. The moment it became a thing and a slogan and a hashtag for the left, Trump and the republicans seized on it because they knew it would benefit them more politically and they were right. That is why they tried to make it seem as if Biden wanted to defund the police when he came out said the opposite. I live in suburban Philadelphia and every republican ad mentioned it. Not lying. Literally every single one. It was absolute horseshit but it didn't matter. Didn't matter if the candidate they were targeting was for or against it. They managed to successfully brand most of the democrats as lawless hippies who wanted to abolish the police force. 

    That's what I am talking about. I know they do not really want to abolish the police. But republicans made a lot of people believe that is what they intended and as a result.......the democrats are left hoping for two hail mary's in Georgia next month. 

    Lawless hippies who want to abolish the police force? Those are libertarians. And libertarians are just embarrassed Republicans.

    Who cares what the other side's messaging is? Just ignore them and move forward. Let them wallow in their own squalor.  Don't give them credibility by saying " no no no that's not what we meant ". 

    Defund the police is exactly what we meant.  And they should pray we don't alter the agreement further. Disband the police, disband ICE, defund the military. 
    I forgot about DHS and TSA, fuck those guys too
    Lol....run on that in Georgia and see what happens next month. 
    chinese-happy.jpg
  • OnWis97OnWis97 St. Paul, MNPosts: 3,726
    I’m with Obama on that one. Defund probably didn’t have enough place in our vernacular for the expectation that people wouldn’t take it as eliminate all funding. It became a term that was probably more prevalent in shock value to the other side than it was rallying the side that cared about it. And while nobody ran on the funding the police, the GQP sure accused them up doing so.

    really, the only other time I heard that term was for defunding Planned Parenthood. And I always assumed that meant taking all government funds out of the organization. So when I first heard it for the police, I was taken back a bit until I understood the term better. Now imagine all the people that weren’t interested in hearing anything more than that headline/catchphrase. It was just bad marketing. I understand that a word like reform might seem a bit soft in a bit of a repeat of other failed weak initiatives but there’s enough momentum now that that may work better.  Instead some of those white suburbanites were probably lost to the Darkside, possibly forever.
    1995 Milwaukee
    1998 Alpine, Alpine
    2003 Albany, Boston, Boston, Boston
    2004 Boston, Boston
    2006 Hartford, St. Paul (Petty), St. Paul (Petty)
    2011 Alpine, Alpine
    2013 Wrigley
    2014 St. Paul
    2016 Fenway, Fenway, Wrigley, Wrigley
    2018 Missoula, Wrigley, Wrigley
  • The JugglerThe Juggler Behind that bush over there.Posts: 39,937
    edited December 2020
    static111 said:
    static111 said:
    Had the Dems operated as Obama is suggesting here, they might not be in a position where they need to sweat out a couple long shot runoffs in Georgia to reclaim the senate. Thank god Joe Biden was at the top of the ticket


    Wait I thought “defund the police” was bad because you had to explain it? But apparently whatever that diarrhea is, is somehow much easier for people to digest 🙄.  This putting aside that no politician ran on the defund the police platform. 
    Hey how'd flipping the senate work out for democrats? How about not saying "defund the police" at all because it sounds to casual observers that you want to just get rid of the fucking police. lol. 

    It doesn't matter if anyone specifically ran on "defunding the police" or not. The moment it became a thing and a slogan and a hashtag for the left, Trump and the republicans seized on it because they knew it would benefit them more politically and they were right. That is why they tried to make it seem as if Biden wanted to defund the police when he came out said the opposite. I live in suburban Philadelphia and every republican ad mentioned it. Not lying. Literally every single one. It was absolute horseshit but it didn't matter. Didn't matter if the candidate they were targeting was for or against it. They managed to successfully brand most of the democrats as lawless hippies who wanted to abolish the police force. 

    That's what I am talking about. I know they do not really want to abolish the police. But republicans made a lot of people believe that is what they intended and as a result.......the democrats are left hoping for two hail mary's in Georgia next month. 
    Some people do want to abolish the police.  I think the millions fighting in the streets getting tear gassed tazed,bean bagged beaten by the police etc, care fuck all about electability.  It’s a horrible problem.  Flipping the senate didn’t happen because of “defund the police” give me a break and cry me a River.  Run on issues that aren’t “hey we aren’t racist Trump syncophants” lol.  Embrace making healthcare affordable, embrace universal programs, embrace raising the minimum wage and protecting and growing the power of labor unions, come out in support  for reparations for blacks and native Americans, be a true progressive party that’s what’s needed to get a groundswell of support.  Simply running on nothing will fundamentally change and more incrementalism as a stop against the Republican drag to the right is exactly what got us here.  Sorry , but if the prevailing theory is “defund the police” was the problem and not “moderate pragmatic change” then the Dems will likely get slaughtered in 22 and 24.
    Dude....had Joe Biden run on that platform, Trump would've run by a wider margin that he did in 2016.

    Democrats had the right model in 2018. Thank god Biden knew what the hell he was doing. 


    chinese-happy.jpg
  • static111static111 Posts: 2,539
    static111 said:
    static111 said:
    Had the Dems operated as Obama is suggesting here, they might not be in a position where they need to sweat out a couple long shot runoffs in Georgia to reclaim the senate. Thank god Joe Biden was at the top of the ticket


    Wait I thought “defund the police” was bad because you had to explain it? But apparently whatever that diarrhea is, is somehow much easier for people to digest 🙄.  This putting aside that no politician ran on the defund the police platform. 
    Hey how'd flipping the senate work out for democrats? How about not saying "defund the police" at all because it sounds to casual observers that you want to just get rid of the fucking police. lol. 

    It doesn't matter if anyone specifically ran on "defunding the police" or not. The moment it became a thing and a slogan and a hashtag for the left, Trump and the republicans seized on it because they knew it would benefit them more politically and they were right. That is why they tried to make it seem as if Biden wanted to defund the police when he came out said the opposite. I live in suburban Philadelphia and every republican ad mentioned it. Not lying. Literally every single one. It was absolute horseshit but it didn't matter. Didn't matter if the candidate they were targeting was for or against it. They managed to successfully brand most of the democrats as lawless hippies who wanted to abolish the police force. 

    That's what I am talking about. I know they do not really want to abolish the police. But republicans made a lot of people believe that is what they intended and as a result.......the democrats are left hoping for two hail mary's in Georgia next month. 
    Some people do want to abolish the police.  I think the millions fighting in the streets getting tear gassed tazed,bean bagged beaten by the police etc, care fuck all about electability.  It’s a horrible problem.  Flipping the senate didn’t happen because of “defund the police” give me a break and cry me a River.  Run on issues that aren’t “hey we aren’t racist Trump syncophants” lol.  Embrace making healthcare affordable, embrace universal programs, embrace raising the minimum wage and protecting and growing the power of labor unions, come out in support  for reparations for blacks and native Americans, be a true progressive party that’s what’s needed to get a groundswell of support.  Simply running on nothing will fundamentally change and more incrementalism as a stop against the Republican drag to the right is exactly what got us here.  Sorry , but if the prevailing theory is “defund the police” was the problem and not “moderate pragmatic change” then the Dems will likely get slaughtered in 22 and 24.
    Dude....had Joe Biden run on that platform, Trump would've run by a wider margin that he did in 2016.

    Democrats had the right model in 2018. Thank god Biden knew what the hell he was doing. 


    “Defund the police” is for the people not politicians.  To say that Dems didn’t flip the senate because people are fed up with our friends and neighbors unfairly being targeted by law enforcement is ridiculous.   There is a lot of change happening now that wouldn’t be happening with a demand to “finally reform the police” lol.  No one asked Biden to run on defund the police. I thought we were talking about the senate.  If people want to flip the senate the politicians need to make their case.  Either people want Republican senators or they have better messaging, the third option is that democrats aren’t engaging enough people.   Something is up.  At any rate. Defund the police wasn’t running for any seats, but it sounds like a great excuse for someone that lost. Rather than looking at performance and saying how can I reach these people.   If the answer is subvert the will and justified anger of the people, well, then it’s not surprising  nobody flipped the senate.  “We hear what your saying, but now isn’t the time...but please vote for us because someday it will eventually be time” not very inspiring. 
  • CM189191CM189191 Minneapolis via ChicagoPosts: 6,211
    CM189191 said:
    CM189191 said:
    static111 said:
    Had the Dems operated as Obama is suggesting here, they might not be in a position where they need to sweat out a couple long shot runoffs in Georgia to reclaim the senate. Thank god Joe Biden was at the top of the ticket


    Wait I thought “defund the police” was bad because you had to explain it? But apparently whatever that diarrhea is, is somehow much easier for people to digest 🙄.  This putting aside that no politician ran on the defund the police platform. 
    Hey how'd flipping the senate work out for democrats? How about not saying "defund the police" at all because it sounds to casual observers that you want to just get rid of the fucking police. lol. 

    It doesn't matter if anyone specifically ran on "defunding the police" or not. The moment it became a thing and a slogan and a hashtag for the left, Trump and the republicans seized on it because they knew it would benefit them more politically and they were right. That is why they tried to make it seem as if Biden wanted to defund the police when he came out said the opposite. I live in suburban Philadelphia and every republican ad mentioned it. Not lying. Literally every single one. It was absolute horseshit but it didn't matter. Didn't matter if the candidate they were targeting was for or against it. They managed to successfully brand most of the democrats as lawless hippies who wanted to abolish the police force. 

    That's what I am talking about. I know they do not really want to abolish the police. But republicans made a lot of people believe that is what they intended and as a result.......the democrats are left hoping for two hail mary's in Georgia next month. 

    Lawless hippies who want to abolish the police force? Those are libertarians. And libertarians are just embarrassed Republicans.

    Who cares what the other side's messaging is? Just ignore them and move forward. Let them wallow in their own squalor.  Don't give them credibility by saying " no no no that's not what we meant ". 

    Defund the police is exactly what we meant.  And they should pray we don't alter the agreement further. Disband the police, disband ICE, defund the military. 
    I forgot about DHS and TSA, fuck those guys too
    Lol....run on that in Georgia and see what happens next month. 

    If the people of Georgia choose to live in a poverty-stricken police state, that's their choice. Defund Georgia too. 
    WI 6/27/98 WI 10/8/00 MO 10/11/00 IL 4/23/03 MN 6/26/06 MN 6/27/06 WI 6/30/06 IL 8/5/07 IL 8/21/08 (EV) IL 8/22/08 (EV) IL 8/23/09 IL 8/24/09 IN 5/7/10 IL 6/28/11 (EV) IL 6/29/11 (EV) WI 9/3/11 WI 9/4/11 IL 7/19/13 NE 10/09/14 IL 10/17/14 MN 10/19/14 FL 4/11/16 IL 8/20/16 IL 8/22/16 IL 08/18/18 IL 08/20/18 IT 07/05/2020 AT 07/07/2020
  • The JugglerThe Juggler Behind that bush over there.Posts: 39,937
    CM189191 said:
    CM189191 said:
    CM189191 said:
    static111 said:
    Had the Dems operated as Obama is suggesting here, they might not be in a position where they need to sweat out a couple long shot runoffs in Georgia to reclaim the senate. Thank god Joe Biden was at the top of the ticket


    Wait I thought “defund the police” was bad because you had to explain it? But apparently whatever that diarrhea is, is somehow much easier for people to digest 🙄.  This putting aside that no politician ran on the defund the police platform. 
    Hey how'd flipping the senate work out for democrats? How about not saying "defund the police" at all because it sounds to casual observers that you want to just get rid of the fucking police. lol. 

    It doesn't matter if anyone specifically ran on "defunding the police" or not. The moment it became a thing and a slogan and a hashtag for the left, Trump and the republicans seized on it because they knew it would benefit them more politically and they were right. That is why they tried to make it seem as if Biden wanted to defund the police when he came out said the opposite. I live in suburban Philadelphia and every republican ad mentioned it. Not lying. Literally every single one. It was absolute horseshit but it didn't matter. Didn't matter if the candidate they were targeting was for or against it. They managed to successfully brand most of the democrats as lawless hippies who wanted to abolish the police force. 

    That's what I am talking about. I know they do not really want to abolish the police. But republicans made a lot of people believe that is what they intended and as a result.......the democrats are left hoping for two hail mary's in Georgia next month. 

    Lawless hippies who want to abolish the police force? Those are libertarians. And libertarians are just embarrassed Republicans.

    Who cares what the other side's messaging is? Just ignore them and move forward. Let them wallow in their own squalor.  Don't give them credibility by saying " no no no that's not what we meant ". 

    Defund the police is exactly what we meant.  And they should pray we don't alter the agreement further. Disband the police, disband ICE, defund the military. 
    I forgot about DHS and TSA, fuck those guys too
    Lol....run on that in Georgia and see what happens next month. 

    If the people of Georgia choose to live in a poverty-stricken police state, that's their choice. Defund Georgia too. 
    lol....again, that's not the attitude that's going to win the elections you need to win to achieve the change you want to see. 
    chinese-happy.jpg
  • The JugglerThe Juggler Behind that bush over there.Posts: 39,937
    static111 said:
    static111 said:
    static111 said:
    Had the Dems operated as Obama is suggesting here, they might not be in a position where they need to sweat out a couple long shot runoffs in Georgia to reclaim the senate. Thank god Joe Biden was at the top of the ticket


    Wait I thought “defund the police” was bad because you had to explain it? But apparently whatever that diarrhea is, is somehow much easier for people to digest 🙄.  This putting aside that no politician ran on the defund the police platform. 
    Hey how'd flipping the senate work out for democrats? How about not saying "defund the police" at all because it sounds to casual observers that you want to just get rid of the fucking police. lol. 

    It doesn't matter if anyone specifically ran on "defunding the police" or not. The moment it became a thing and a slogan and a hashtag for the left, Trump and the republicans seized on it because they knew it would benefit them more politically and they were right. That is why they tried to make it seem as if Biden wanted to defund the police when he came out said the opposite. I live in suburban Philadelphia and every republican ad mentioned it. Not lying. Literally every single one. It was absolute horseshit but it didn't matter. Didn't matter if the candidate they were targeting was for or against it. They managed to successfully brand most of the democrats as lawless hippies who wanted to abolish the police force. 

    That's what I am talking about. I know they do not really want to abolish the police. But republicans made a lot of people believe that is what they intended and as a result.......the democrats are left hoping for two hail mary's in Georgia next month. 
    Some people do want to abolish the police.  I think the millions fighting in the streets getting tear gassed tazed,bean bagged beaten by the police etc, care fuck all about electability.  It’s a horrible problem.  Flipping the senate didn’t happen because of “defund the police” give me a break and cry me a River.  Run on issues that aren’t “hey we aren’t racist Trump syncophants” lol.  Embrace making healthcare affordable, embrace universal programs, embrace raising the minimum wage and protecting and growing the power of labor unions, come out in support  for reparations for blacks and native Americans, be a true progressive party that’s what’s needed to get a groundswell of support.  Simply running on nothing will fundamentally change and more incrementalism as a stop against the Republican drag to the right is exactly what got us here.  Sorry , but if the prevailing theory is “defund the police” was the problem and not “moderate pragmatic change” then the Dems will likely get slaughtered in 22 and 24.
    Dude....had Joe Biden run on that platform, Trump would've run by a wider margin that he did in 2016.

    Democrats had the right model in 2018. Thank god Biden knew what the hell he was doing. 


    “Defund the police” is for the people not politicians.  To say that Dems didn’t flip the senate because people are fed up with our friends and neighbors unfairly being targeted by law enforcement is ridiculous.   There is a lot of change happening now that wouldn’t be happening with a demand to “finally reform the police” lol.  No one asked Biden to run on defund the police. I thought we were talking about the senate.  If people want to flip the senate the politicians need to make their case.  Either people want Republican senators or they have better messaging, the third option is that democrats aren’t engaging enough people.   Something is up.  At any rate. Defund the police wasn’t running for any seats, but it sounds like a great excuse for someone that lost. Rather than looking at performance and saying how can I reach these people.   If the answer is subvert the will and justified anger of the people, well, then it’s not surprising  nobody flipped the senate.  “We hear what your saying, but now isn’t the time...but please vote for us because someday it will eventually be time” not very inspiring. 
    I'm talking about the politics of it. I'm not sure you understand my point. Whether or not democrats specifically ran on "defunding the police" doesn't matter. What matters is the far left made it a rallying cry that republicans then successfully used to brand many dems on the ballot, which played a large role in them gaining seats in the house and holding the senate. Republicans are just better at that kind of stuff than democrats are. 

    https://www.washingtonpost.com/local/virginia-politics/webb-spanberger-defund-attacks/2020/11/11/9afd6408-2426-11eb-952e-0c475972cfc0_story.html

    Spanberger sparked a debate about ‘defund the police’ attacks. Cameron Webb slogged through them.

    Democrat Cameron Webb at a meet-and-greet event at the Highway of Faith Holy Church in New Canton Va on Oct 27
    Democrat Cameron Webb at a meet-and-greet event at the Highway of Faith Holy Church in New Canton, Va., on Oct. 27. (John McDonnell/The Washington Post)
    November 11, 2020 at 5:18 p.m. EST

    The ad had all the trappings of a left-wing boogeyman fever dream: “He’d defund the police, end Medicare, force you into socialized medicine, double your gas prices with a Green New Deal.”

    “Cameron Webb: way too radical.”

    The rhetoric, deployed against a Virginia Democratic candidate for a U.S. House seat, is exactly what Rep. Abigail Spanberger (D-Va.) was talking about last week when she told her colleagues they needed to avoid using language that became fodder for Republican attacks.

    “We [need to] look at the things that they say about us,” Spanberger had said in the call with House Democrats, in audio obtained by The Washington Post. “Because whether we think it’s just an attack ad and that’s what it does . . . it doesn’t matter, because it works.”

    Webb, a lawyer and physician who supports neither defunding police nor socialized medicine, lost to Republican Bob Good by five percentage points in a historically red Virginia congressional district.

    AD

    Webb said President Trump’s presence on the ballot, and his mobilizing effect in southern parts of the state, was ultimately the greatest factor in his loss. But both he and Spanberger say the GOP’s favored earworm attacks on Democrats managed to shift the conversation in the 5th District race, while Spanberger said she also heard constantly from constituents concerned about police being defunded.

    “We thought we neutralized [the defund the police attacks] with some of our own spots,” Webb said in an interview, referring to advertisements focused on law enforcement and his efforts to treat coronavirus patients during the pandemic. “But that did shift the conversation. And what it did is it brought more national discourse into our race here in the 5th as opposed to focusing on local issues.”

    Democrats had high hopes that Webb’s credentials and major fundraising advantages could make him the first Democrat to flip the seat since 2008, especially because Republicans were divided over Good’s ouster of Rep. Denver Riggleman in a nominating convention.

    AD

    Webb outperformed President-elect Joe Biden (D) by roughly three percentage points in the district, according to unofficial returns, indicating he did attract some crossover voters. But it wasn’t nearly enough.

    Rep Abigail Spanberger D talks to constituents outside of Open Door Baptist Church on Nov 3 in Chesterfield County Va
    Rep. Abigail Spanberger (D) talks to constituents outside of Open Door Baptist Church on Nov. 3 in Chesterfield County, Va. (Julia Rendleman for The Washington Post)

    To a lesser degree, Republicans also used “defund the police” rhetoric on Spanberger, who defeated state Del. Nick Freitas (R-Culpeper) by a narrow 2 percent of the vote, according to unofficial returns. They occasionally tried to link the former CIA officer with her freshman colleague, Rep. Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez (D-N.Y.), who does want to defund police and proudly identifies as a democratic socialist.

    Spanberger “votes nearly as much with socialist AOC,” charged one attack ad from Club for Growth PAC, which spent millions helping Freitas. “Why would Spanberger take so much money from defund the police extremists if she truly cared about Virginia?”

    AD

    Spanberger told her caucus Thursday that it needed to do an autopsy on how such attacks affected some of the vulnerable Democrats who lost their seats.

    She said Democrats should avoid phrases like “defund the police” and instead explain policies they support more clearly to better protect themselves in 2022 — and posited that they should also “not ever use the word ‘socialist’ or ‘socialism’ ever again.”

    Elaborating in an interview Tuesday, Spanberger said she was not placing blame on any particular candidate or idea but believes her comments have been mischaracterized as opposing certain progressive policies.

    “The position I was stating was we have to better explain what we are for,” she said, contrasting specific police reforms, for example, with the phrase “defund the police.” “Here’s a phrase that doesn’t begin to represent what we’ve actually done. In the cause of equal justice, in the cause of police reform, we in the House of Representatives passed a good bill that every single Democrat voted for, as well as some Republicans.

    AD

    “And yet if you were to say to your constituents, what is it they have done in the area of police reform? People just won’t necessarily be able to say, because the conversation has been consumed by slogans — and frankly they are also slogans that have been weaponized by our political opponents.”

    Spanberger said the millions of dollars spent on “defund the police” attack ads against Webb indicated “there had to be some pollster or some strategist somewhere saying, ‘This is how we will beat that man.’ ”

    Some, like House Majority Whip James E. Clyburn (D-S.C.) and Rep. Conor Lamb (D-Pa.) have agreed with Spanberger that slogans such as “defund the police,” as well as calls to ban fracking, for example, hurt Democrats. But others in the party’s more liberal wing said they felt like they were being blamed for losses, or that the voices of their constituents — many of them minorities — were being silenced.

    AD

    “To be real, it sounds like you are saying stop pushing for what Black folks want,” Rep. Rashida Tlaib (D-Mich.) said to centrist colleagues on the call. Ocasio-Cortez, whose name and face hovered in the background of some GOP attack ads in Virginia, tweeted that the “ ‘progressivism is bad’ argument just doesn’t have any compelling evidence,” noting that many Democrats who co-sponsored Medicare-for-all or the Green New Deal won reelection.

    “When it comes to ‘Defund’ & ‘Socialism’ attacks, people need to realize these are racial resentment attacks,” she wrote. “You’re not gonna make that go away. You can make it less effective.”

    She added in an interview on CNN’s “State of the Union” that she was not denying that Republican rhetoric has been effective in hurting Democrats but said the party could be more resilient against the attacks — for example, with better digital campaigning.

    Rep-elect Bob Good R-Va at his election night party at Liberty University in Lynchburg Va Good accused his opponent Democrat Cameron Webb of far-left positions that Webb did not support
    Rep.-elect Bob Good (R-Va.) at his election night party at Liberty University in Lynchburg, Va. Good accused his opponent, Democrat Cameron Webb, of far-left positions that Webb did not support. (Kendall Warner/The News & Advance/AP)

    In Virginia, at least, Webb, Spanberger and Rep. Elaine Luria all significantly outspent Republicans on digital advertising on Facebook, according to data from the social media giant. Webb spent roughly $234,000 to Good’s $19,000.

    AD

    Luria, who also flipped a red district blue two years ago, faced somewhat different attacks from Republicans this campaign cycle, focused more on tax policy and her position on China. She also was able to attack her Republican challenger, Scott Taylor, over a lingering 2018 scandal.

    “I think there is a broad diversity of views and that comes with members with very different backgrounds and districts that are very different,” she said, adding that she considers infighting among Democrats unhelpful.

    “We’re all here to represent our districts, and that diversity is something that is a strength of the Democratic Party rather than something we should weaponize among ourselves.”

    Rep. Don Beyer (D-Va.), who represents deep-blue Arlington and Alexandria, said he was skeptical about how much Republican attack ads truly hurt Democrats in swing districts, believing Trump’s mobilization of supporters was the most potent and obvious factor affecting those contests. Beyer also said Webb’s race — he would have been the first Black doctor ever elected to Congress — may have been a factor, especially given the racially polarized presidential campaign.

    AD

    “Without Trump on the ticket, [Webb] might have been able to do better,” Beyer said. “Trump was bringing out the White working class, who in much of the South are still not going to be excited about a Black candidate. They may not consider themselves racist at all — I’m not trying to say that — but it is a subtle part of their world perspective.”

    Luria also noted that the lines of the 5th District had been redrawn since 2008, the last time a Democrat won, so that they favored Republicans even more.

    But when it came down to it, Webb said, he had to commend Good for sticking so closely to his pro-Trump messaging.

    Webb, who observed strict social distancing precautions because of the pandemic, also said he wished he would have found more ways to get in front of voters safely. He felt especially constrained because he was potentially exposed to the virus when treating covid-19 patients in the University of Virginia hospital.

    AD

    The source for many of the “defund” attacks against Webb stemmed from a television interview Webb gave this summer, when the Democrat expressed support for racial justice protesters and said the “defund the police” language that was flooding the streets then should be used “appropriately.” Thereafter, he found himself repeatedly denying that his comments amounted to support for defunding the police.

    But Webb had no regrets about his words, saying he found it important in a conversation about racial justice to at the very least acknowledge the viewpoints of people across the district who both supported and opposed calls for “defunding” police.

    “That’s something that is sometimes incompatible with our hot-mic politics, but it’s so important for us to be able to do from a healing perspective,” he said. “The key here is being able to hold space for the range of views that exist and say, how do we move forward?”

    chinese-happy.jpg
  • static111static111 Posts: 2,539
    static111 said:
    static111 said:
    static111 said:
    Had the Dems operated as Obama is suggesting here, they might not be in a position where they need to sweat out a couple long shot runoffs in Georgia to reclaim the senate. Thank god Joe Biden was at the top of the ticket


    Wait I thought “defund the police” was bad because you had to explain it? But apparently whatever that diarrhea is, is somehow much easier for people to digest 🙄.  This putting aside that no politician ran on the defund the police platform. 
    Hey how'd flipping the senate work out for democrats? How about not saying "defund the police" at all because it sounds to casual observers that you want to just get rid of the fucking police. lol. 

    It doesn't matter if anyone specifically ran on "defunding the police" or not. The moment it became a thing and a slogan and a hashtag for the left, Trump and the republicans seized on it because they knew it would benefit them more politically and they were right. That is why they tried to make it seem as if Biden wanted to defund the police when he came out said the opposite. I live in suburban Philadelphia and every republican ad mentioned it. Not lying. Literally every single one. It was absolute horseshit but it didn't matter. Didn't matter if the candidate they were targeting was for or against it. They managed to successfully brand most of the democrats as lawless hippies who wanted to abolish the police force. 

    That's what I am talking about. I know they do not really want to abolish the police. But republicans made a lot of people believe that is what they intended and as a result.......the democrats are left hoping for two hail mary's in Georgia next month. 
    Some people do want to abolish the police.  I think the millions fighting in the streets getting tear gassed tazed,bean bagged beaten by the police etc, care fuck all about electability.  It’s a horrible problem.  Flipping the senate didn’t happen because of “defund the police” give me a break and cry me a River.  Run on issues that aren’t “hey we aren’t racist Trump syncophants” lol.  Embrace making healthcare affordable, embrace universal programs, embrace raising the minimum wage and protecting and growing the power of labor unions, come out in support  for reparations for blacks and native Americans, be a true progressive party that’s what’s needed to get a groundswell of support.  Simply running on nothing will fundamentally change and more incrementalism as a stop against the Republican drag to the right is exactly what got us here.  Sorry , but if the prevailing theory is “defund the police” was the problem and not “moderate pragmatic change” then the Dems will likely get slaughtered in 22 and 24.
    Dude....had Joe Biden run on that platform, Trump would've run by a wider margin that he did in 2016.

    Democrats had the right model in 2018. Thank god Biden knew what the hell he was doing. 


    “Defund the police” is for the people not politicians.  To say that Dems didn’t flip the senate because people are fed up with our friends and neighbors unfairly being targeted by law enforcement is ridiculous.   There is a lot of change happening now that wouldn’t be happening with a demand to “finally reform the police” lol.  No one asked Biden to run on defund the police. I thought we were talking about the senate.  If people want to flip the senate the politicians need to make their case.  Either people want Republican senators or they have better messaging, the third option is that democrats aren’t engaging enough people.   Something is up.  At any rate. Defund the police wasn’t running for any seats, but it sounds like a great excuse for someone that lost. Rather than looking at performance and saying how can I reach these people.   If the answer is subvert the will and justified anger of the people, well, then it’s not surprising  nobody flipped the senate.  “We hear what your saying, but now isn’t the time...but please vote for us because someday it will eventually be time” not very inspiring. 
    I'm talking about the politics of it. I'm not sure you understand my point. Whether or not democrats specifically ran on "defunding the police" doesn't matter. What matters is the far left made it a rallying cry that republicans then successfully used to brand many dems on the ballot, which played a large role in them gaining seats in the house and holding the senate. Republicans are just better at that kind of stuff than democrats are. 

    https://www.washingtonpost.com/local/virginia-politics/webb-spanberger-defund-attacks/2020/11/11/9afd6408-2426-11eb-952e-0c475972cfc0_story.html

    Spanberger sparked a debate about ‘defund the police’ attacks. Cameron Webb slogged through them.

    Democrat Cameron Webb at a meet-and-greet event at the Highway of Faith Holy Church in New Canton Va on Oct 27
    Democrat Cameron Webb at a meet-and-greet event at the Highway of Faith Holy Church in New Canton, Va., on Oct. 27. (John McDonnell/The Washington Post)
    November 11, 2020 at 5:18 p.m. EST

    The ad had all the trappings of a left-wing boogeyman fever dream: “He’d defund the police, end Medicare, force you into socialized medicine, double your gas prices with a Green New Deal.”

    “Cameron Webb: way too radical.”

    The rhetoric, deployed against a Virginia Democratic candidate for a U.S. House seat, is exactly what Rep. Abigail Spanberger (D-Va.) was talking about last week when she told her colleagues they needed to avoid using language that became fodder for Republican attacks.

    “We [need to] look at the things that they say about us,” Spanberger had said in the call with House Democrats, in audio obtained by The Washington Post. “Because whether we think it’s just an attack ad and that’s what it does . . . it doesn’t matter, because it works.”

    Webb, a lawyer and physician who supports neither defunding police nor socialized medicine, lost to Republican Bob Good by five percentage points in a historically red Virginia congressional district.

    AD

    Webb said President Trump’s presence on the ballot, and his mobilizing effect in southern parts of the state, was ultimately the greatest factor in his loss. But both he and Spanberger say the GOP’s favored earworm attacks on Democrats managed to shift the conversation in the 5th District race, while Spanberger said she also heard constantly from constituents concerned about police being defunded.

    “We thought we neutralized [the defund the police attacks] with some of our own spots,” Webb said in an interview, referring to advertisements focused on law enforcement and his efforts to treat coronavirus patients during the pandemic. “But that did shift the conversation. And what it did is it brought more national discourse into our race here in the 5th as opposed to focusing on local issues.”

    Democrats had high hopes that Webb’s credentials and major fundraising advantages could make him the first Democrat to flip the seat since 2008, especially because Republicans were divided over Good’s ouster of Rep. Denver Riggleman in a nominating convention.

    AD

    Webb outperformed President-elect Joe Biden (D) by roughly three percentage points in the district, according to unofficial returns, indicating he did attract some crossover voters. But it wasn’t nearly enough.

    Rep Abigail Spanberger D talks to constituents outside of Open Door Baptist Church on Nov 3 in Chesterfield County Va
    Rep. Abigail Spanberger (D) talks to constituents outside of Open Door Baptist Church on Nov. 3 in Chesterfield County, Va. (Julia Rendleman for The Washington Post)

    To a lesser degree, Republicans also used “defund the police” rhetoric on Spanberger, who defeated state Del. Nick Freitas (R-Culpeper) by a narrow 2 percent of the vote, according to unofficial returns. They occasionally tried to link the former CIA officer with her freshman colleague, Rep. Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez (D-N.Y.), who does want to defund police and proudly identifies as a democratic socialist.

    Spanberger “votes nearly as much with socialist AOC,” charged one attack ad from Club for Growth PAC, which spent millions helping Freitas. “Why would Spanberger take so much money from defund the police extremists if she truly cared about Virginia?”

    AD

    Spanberger told her caucus Thursday that it needed to do an autopsy on how such attacks affected some of the vulnerable Democrats who lost their seats.

    She said Democrats should avoid phrases like “defund the police” and instead explain policies they support more clearly to better protect themselves in 2022 — and posited that they should also “not ever use the word ‘socialist’ or ‘socialism’ ever again.”

    Elaborating in an interview Tuesday, Spanberger said she was not placing blame on any particular candidate or idea but believes her comments have been mischaracterized as opposing certain progressive policies.

    “The position I was stating was we have to better explain what we are for,” she said, contrasting specific police reforms, for example, with the phrase “defund the police.” “Here’s a phrase that doesn’t begin to represent what we’ve actually done. In the cause of equal justice, in the cause of police reform, we in the House of Representatives passed a good bill that every single Democrat voted for, as well as some Republicans.

    AD

    “And yet if you were to say to your constituents, what is it they have done in the area of police reform? People just won’t necessarily be able to say, because the conversation has been consumed by slogans — and frankly they are also slogans that have been weaponized by our political opponents.”

    Spanberger said the millions of dollars spent on “defund the police” attack ads against Webb indicated “there had to be some pollster or some strategist somewhere saying, ‘This is how we will beat that man.’ ”

    Some, like House Majority Whip James E. Clyburn (D-S.C.) and Rep. Conor Lamb (D-Pa.) have agreed with Spanberger that slogans such as “defund the police,” as well as calls to ban fracking, for example, hurt Democrats. But others in the party’s more liberal wing said they felt like they were being blamed for losses, or that the voices of their constituents — many of them minorities — were being silenced.

    AD

    “To be real, it sounds like you are saying stop pushing for what Black folks want,” Rep. Rashida Tlaib (D-Mich.) said to centrist colleagues on the call. Ocasio-Cortez, whose name and face hovered in the background of some GOP attack ads in Virginia, tweeted that the “ ‘progressivism is bad’ argument just doesn’t have any compelling evidence,” noting that many Democrats who co-sponsored Medicare-for-all or the Green New Deal won reelection.

    “When it comes to ‘Defund’ & ‘Socialism’ attacks, people need to realize these are racial resentment attacks,” she wrote. “You’re not gonna make that go away. You can make it less effective.”

    She added in an interview on CNN’s “State of the Union” that she was not denying that Republican rhetoric has been effective in hurting Democrats but said the party could be more resilient against the attacks — for example, with better digital campaigning.

    Rep-elect Bob Good R-Va at his election night party at Liberty University in Lynchburg Va Good accused his opponent Democrat Cameron Webb of far-left positions that Webb did not support
    Rep.-elect Bob Good (R-Va.) at his election night party at Liberty University in Lynchburg, Va. Good accused his opponent, Democrat Cameron Webb, of far-left positions that Webb did not support. (Kendall Warner/The News & Advance/AP)

    In Virginia, at least, Webb, Spanberger and Rep. Elaine Luria all significantly outspent Republicans on digital advertising on Facebook, according to data from the social media giant. Webb spent roughly $234,000 to Good’s $19,000.

    AD

    Luria, who also flipped a red district blue two years ago, faced somewhat different attacks from Republicans this campaign cycle, focused more on tax policy and her position on China. She also was able to attack her Republican challenger, Scott Taylor, over a lingering 2018 scandal.

    “I think there is a broad diversity of views and that comes with members with very different backgrounds and districts that are very different,” she said, adding that she considers infighting among Democrats unhelpful.

    “We’re all here to represent our districts, and that diversity is something that is a strength of the Democratic Party rather than something we should weaponize among ourselves.”

    Rep. Don Beyer (D-Va.), who represents deep-blue Arlington and Alexandria, said he was skeptical about how much Republican attack ads truly hurt Democrats in swing districts, believing Trump’s mobilization of supporters was the most potent and obvious factor affecting those contests. Beyer also said Webb’s race — he would have been the first Black doctor ever elected to Congress — may have been a factor, especially given the racially polarized presidential campaign.

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    “Without Trump on the ticket, [Webb] might have been able to do better,” Beyer said. “Trump was bringing out the White working class, who in much of the South are still not going to be excited about a Black candidate. They may not consider themselves racist at all — I’m not trying to say that — but it is a subtle part of their world perspective.”

    Luria also noted that the lines of the 5th District had been redrawn since 2008, the last time a Democrat won, so that they favored Republicans even more.

    But when it came down to it, Webb said, he had to commend Good for sticking so closely to his pro-Trump messaging.

    Webb, who observed strict social distancing precautions because of the pandemic, also said he wished he would have found more ways to get in front of voters safely. He felt especially constrained because he was potentially exposed to the virus when treating covid-19 patients in the University of Virginia hospital.

    AD

    The source for many of the “defund” attacks against Webb stemmed from a television interview Webb gave this summer, when the Democrat expressed support for racial justice protesters and said the “defund the police” language that was flooding the streets then should be used “appropriately.” Thereafter, he found himself repeatedly denying that his comments amounted to support for defunding the police.

    But Webb had no regrets about his words, saying he found it important in a conversation about racial justice to at the very least acknowledge the viewpoints of people across the district who both supported and opposed calls for “defunding” police.

    “That’s something that is sometimes incompatible with our hot-mic politics, but it’s so important for us to be able to do from a healing perspective,” he said. “The key here is being able to hold space for the range of views that exist and say, how do we move forward?”


    “To be real, it sounds like you are saying stop pushing for what Black folks want,” Rep. Rashida Tlaib (D-Mich.) said to centrist colleagues on the call.

  • rgambsrgambs Posts: 13,553
    I believe in the message behind "defund the police", but I am also a 'language guy' and I can't abide a slogan that doesn't come close to accurately stating its own goal 🤦‍♂️
    Monkey Driven, Call this Living?
  • The JugglerThe Juggler Behind that bush over there.Posts: 39,937
    static111 said:
    static111 said:
    static111 said:
    static111 said:
    Had the Dems operated as Obama is suggesting here, they might not be in a position where they need to sweat out a couple long shot runoffs in Georgia to reclaim the senate. Thank god Joe Biden was at the top of the ticket


    Wait I thought “defund the police” was bad because you had to explain it? But apparently whatever that diarrhea is, is somehow much easier for people to digest 🙄.  This putting aside that no politician ran on the defund the police platform. 
    Hey how'd flipping the senate work out for democrats? How about not saying "defund the police" at all because it sounds to casual observers that you want to just get rid of the fucking police. lol. 

    It doesn't matter if anyone specifically ran on "defunding the police" or not. The moment it became a thing and a slogan and a hashtag for the left, Trump and the republicans seized on it because they knew it would benefit them more politically and they were right. That is why they tried to make it seem as if Biden wanted to defund the police when he came out said the opposite. I live in suburban Philadelphia and every republican ad mentioned it. Not lying. Literally every single one. It was absolute horseshit but it didn't matter. Didn't matter if the candidate they were targeting was for or against it. They managed to successfully brand most of the democrats as lawless hippies who wanted to abolish the police force. 

    That's what I am talking about. I know they do not really want to abolish the police. But republicans made a lot of people believe that is what they intended and as a result.......the democrats are left hoping for two hail mary's in Georgia next month. 
    Some people do want to abolish the police.  I think the millions fighting in the streets getting tear gassed tazed,bean bagged beaten by the police etc, care fuck all about electability.  It’s a horrible problem.  Flipping the senate didn’t happen because of “defund the police” give me a break and cry me a River.  Run on issues that aren’t “hey we aren’t racist Trump syncophants” lol.  Embrace making healthcare affordable, embrace universal programs, embrace raising the minimum wage and protecting and growing the power of labor unions, come out in support  for reparations for blacks and native Americans, be a true progressive party that’s what’s needed to get a groundswell of support.  Simply running on nothing will fundamentally change and more incrementalism as a stop against the Republican drag to the right is exactly what got us here.  Sorry , but if the prevailing theory is “defund the police” was the problem and not “moderate pragmatic change” then the Dems will likely get slaughtered in 22 and 24.
    Dude....had Joe Biden run on that platform, Trump would've run by a wider margin that he did in 2016.

    Democrats had the right model in 2018. Thank god Biden knew what the hell he was doing. 


    “Defund the police” is for the people not politicians.  To say that Dems didn’t flip the senate because people are fed up with our friends and neighbors unfairly being targeted by law enforcement is ridiculous.   There is a lot of change happening now that wouldn’t be happening with a demand to “finally reform the police” lol.  No one asked Biden to run on defund the police. I thought we were talking about the senate.  If people want to flip the senate the politicians need to make their case.  Either people want Republican senators or they have better messaging, the third option is that democrats aren’t engaging enough people.   Something is up.  At any rate. Defund the police wasn’t running for any seats, but it sounds like a great excuse for someone that lost. Rather than looking at performance and saying how can I reach these people.   If the answer is subvert the will and justified anger of the people, well, then it’s not surprising  nobody flipped the senate.  “We hear what your saying, but now isn’t the time...but please vote for us because someday it will eventually be time” not very inspiring. 
    I'm talking about the politics of it. I'm not sure you understand my point. Whether or not democrats specifically ran on "defunding the police" doesn't matter. What matters is the far left made it a rallying cry that republicans then successfully used to brand many dems on the ballot, which played a large role in them gaining seats in the house and holding the senate. Republicans are just better at that kind of stuff than democrats are. 

    https://www.washingtonpost.com/local/virginia-politics/webb-spanberger-defund-attacks/2020/11/11/9afd6408-2426-11eb-952e-0c475972cfc0_story.html

    Spanberger sparked a debate about ‘defund the police’ attacks. Cameron Webb slogged through them.

    Democrat Cameron Webb at a meet-and-greet event at the Highway of Faith Holy Church in New Canton Va on Oct 27
    Democrat Cameron Webb at a meet-and-greet event at the Highway of Faith Holy Church in New Canton, Va., on Oct. 27. (John McDonnell/The Washington Post)
    November 11, 2020 at 5:18 p.m. EST

    The ad had all the trappings of a left-wing boogeyman fever dream: “He’d defund the police, end Medicare, force you into socialized medicine, double your gas prices with a Green New Deal.”

    “Cameron Webb: way too radical.”

    The rhetoric, deployed against a Virginia Democratic candidate for a U.S. House seat, is exactly what Rep. Abigail Spanberger (D-Va.) was talking about last week when she told her colleagues they needed to avoid using language that became fodder for Republican attacks.

    “We [need to] look at the things that they say about us,” Spanberger had said in the call with House Democrats, in audio obtained by The Washington Post. “Because whether we think it’s just an attack ad and that’s what it does . . . it doesn’t matter, because it works.”

    Webb, a lawyer and physician who supports neither defunding police nor socialized medicine, lost to Republican Bob Good by five percentage points in a historically red Virginia congressional district.

    AD

    Webb said President Trump’s presence on the ballot, and his mobilizing effect in southern parts of the state, was ultimately the greatest factor in his loss. But both he and Spanberger say the GOP’s favored earworm attacks on Democrats managed to shift the conversation in the 5th District race, while Spanberger said she also heard constantly from constituents concerned about police being defunded.

    “We thought we neutralized [the defund the police attacks] with some of our own spots,” Webb said in an interview, referring to advertisements focused on law enforcement and his efforts to treat coronavirus patients during the pandemic. “But that did shift the conversation. And what it did is it brought more national discourse into our race here in the 5th as opposed to focusing on local issues.”

    Democrats had high hopes that Webb’s credentials and major fundraising advantages could make him the first Democrat to flip the seat since 2008, especially because Republicans were divided over Good’s ouster of Rep. Denver Riggleman in a nominating convention.

    AD

    Webb outperformed President-elect Joe Biden (D) by roughly three percentage points in the district, according to unofficial returns, indicating he did attract some crossover voters. But it wasn’t nearly enough.

    Rep Abigail Spanberger D talks to constituents outside of Open Door Baptist Church on Nov 3 in Chesterfield County Va
    Rep. Abigail Spanberger (D) talks to constituents outside of Open Door Baptist Church on Nov. 3 in Chesterfield County, Va. (Julia Rendleman for The Washington Post)

    To a lesser degree, Republicans also used “defund the police” rhetoric on Spanberger, who defeated state Del. Nick Freitas (R-Culpeper) by a narrow 2 percent of the vote, according to unofficial returns. They occasionally tried to link the former CIA officer with her freshman colleague, Rep. Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez (D-N.Y.), who does want to defund police and proudly identifies as a democratic socialist.

    Spanberger “votes nearly as much with socialist AOC,” charged one attack ad from Club for Growth PAC, which spent millions helping Freitas. “Why would Spanberger take so much money from defund the police extremists if she truly cared about Virginia?”

    AD

    Spanberger told her caucus Thursday that it needed to do an autopsy on how such attacks affected some of the vulnerable Democrats who lost their seats.

    She said Democrats should avoid phrases like “defund the police” and instead explain policies they support more clearly to better protect themselves in 2022 — and posited that they should also “not ever use the word ‘socialist’ or ‘socialism’ ever again.”

    Elaborating in an interview Tuesday, Spanberger said she was not placing blame on any particular candidate or idea but believes her comments have been mischaracterized as opposing certain progressive policies.

    “The position I was stating was we have to better explain what we are for,” she said, contrasting specific police reforms, for example, with the phrase “defund the police.” “Here’s a phrase that doesn’t begin to represent what we’ve actually done. In the cause of equal justice, in the cause of police reform, we in the House of Representatives passed a good bill that every single Democrat voted for, as well as some Republicans.

    AD

    “And yet if you were to say to your constituents, what is it they have done in the area of police reform? People just won’t necessarily be able to say, because the conversation has been consumed by slogans — and frankly they are also slogans that have been weaponized by our political opponents.”

    Spanberger said the millions of dollars spent on “defund the police” attack ads against Webb indicated “there had to be some pollster or some strategist somewhere saying, ‘This is how we will beat that man.’ ”

    Some, like House Majority Whip James E. Clyburn (D-S.C.) and Rep. Conor Lamb (D-Pa.) have agreed with Spanberger that slogans such as “defund the police,” as well as calls to ban fracking, for example, hurt Democrats. But others in the party’s more liberal wing said they felt like they were being blamed for losses, or that the voices of their constituents — many of them minorities — were being silenced.

    AD

    “To be real, it sounds like you are saying stop pushing for what Black folks want,” Rep. Rashida Tlaib (D-Mich.) said to centrist colleagues on the call. Ocasio-Cortez, whose name and face hovered in the background of some GOP attack ads in Virginia, tweeted that the “ ‘progressivism is bad’ argument just doesn’t have any compelling evidence,” noting that many Democrats who co-sponsored Medicare-for-all or the Green New Deal won reelection.

    “When it comes to ‘Defund’ & ‘Socialism’ attacks, people need to realize these are racial resentment attacks,” she wrote. “You’re not gonna make that go away. You can make it less effective.”

    She added in an interview on CNN’s “State of the Union” that she was not denying that Republican rhetoric has been effective in hurting Democrats but said the party could be more resilient against the attacks — for example, with better digital campaigning.

    Rep-elect Bob Good R-Va at his election night party at Liberty University in Lynchburg Va Good accused his opponent Democrat Cameron Webb of far-left positions that Webb did not support
    Rep.-elect Bob Good (R-Va.) at his election night party at Liberty University in Lynchburg, Va. Good accused his opponent, Democrat Cameron Webb, of far-left positions that Webb did not support. (Kendall Warner/The News & Advance/AP)

    In Virginia, at least, Webb, Spanberger and Rep. Elaine Luria all significantly outspent Republicans on digital advertising on Facebook, according to data from the social media giant. Webb spent roughly $234,000 to Good’s $19,000.

    AD

    Luria, who also flipped a red district blue two years ago, faced somewhat different attacks from Republicans this campaign cycle, focused more on tax policy and her position on China. She also was able to attack her Republican challenger, Scott Taylor, over a lingering 2018 scandal.

    “I think there is a broad diversity of views and that comes with members with very different backgrounds and districts that are very different,” she said, adding that she considers infighting among Democrats unhelpful.

    “We’re all here to represent our districts, and that diversity is something that is a strength of the Democratic Party rather than something we should weaponize among ourselves.”

    Rep. Don Beyer (D-Va.), who represents deep-blue Arlington and Alexandria, said he was skeptical about how much Republican attack ads truly hurt Democrats in swing districts, believing Trump’s mobilization of supporters was the most potent and obvious factor affecting those contests. Beyer also said Webb’s race — he would have been the first Black doctor ever elected to Congress — may have been a factor, especially given the racially polarized presidential campaign.

    AD

    “Without Trump on the ticket, [Webb] might have been able to do better,” Beyer said. “Trump was bringing out the White working class, who in much of the South are still not going to be excited about a Black candidate. They may not consider themselves racist at all — I’m not trying to say that — but it is a subtle part of their world perspective.”

    Luria also noted that the lines of the 5th District had been redrawn since 2008, the last time a Democrat won, so that they favored Republicans even more.

    But when it came down to it, Webb said, he had to commend Good for sticking so closely to his pro-Trump messaging.

    Webb, who observed strict social distancing precautions because of the pandemic, also said he wished he would have found more ways to get in front of voters safely. He felt especially constrained because he was potentially exposed to the virus when treating covid-19 patients in the University of Virginia hospital.

    AD

    The source for many of the “defund” attacks against Webb stemmed from a television interview Webb gave this summer, when the Democrat expressed support for racial justice protesters and said the “defund the police” language that was flooding the streets then should be used “appropriately.” Thereafter, he found himself repeatedly denying that his comments amounted to support for defunding the police.

    But Webb had no regrets about his words, saying he found it important in a conversation about racial justice to at the very least acknowledge the viewpoints of people across the district who both supported and opposed calls for “defunding” police.

    “That’s something that is sometimes incompatible with our hot-mic politics, but it’s so important for us to be able to do from a healing perspective,” he said. “The key here is being able to hold space for the range of views that exist and say, how do we move forward?”


    “To be real, it sounds like you are saying stop pushing for what Black folks want,” Rep. Rashida Tlaib (D-Mich.) said to centrist colleagues on the call.

    To be real, it sounds like Rashida Tlaib just assumes she knows what black folks want, possibly just because they're black.
    I will also note Trump did better among African Americans in '20 than he did in '16......

    https://www.newsweek.com/81-black-americans-dont-want-less-police-presence-despite-protestssome-want-more-cops-poll-1523093


    81% of Black Americans Don't Want Less Police Presence Despite Protests—Some Want More Cops: Poll


    Amajority of Black Americans have said they want police presence in their area to either remain the same or increase, despite recent protests over police brutality, according to new polls.

    A Gallup poll conducted from June 23 to July 6 surveying more than 36,000 U.S. adults found that 61 percent of Black Americans said they'd like police to spend the same amount of time in their community, while 20 percent answered they'd like to see more police, totaling 81 percent. Just 19 percent of those polled said they wanted police to spend less time in their area.

    Black Americans' responses to the question were nearly on par with the national average, in which 67 percent of all U.S. adults said they wanted police presence to remain the same and 19 percent said they wanted it to increase.

    Lincoln Park Protest
    Police stand by as protesters for and against the removal of the Emancipation Memorial debate in Lincoln Park on June 26, in Washington, D.C. A Gallup poll showed that a large majority of Black Americans said they want police presence in their area to either remain the same or increase despite the recent protests.TASOS KATOPODIS/GETTY

    The poll's results come amid continuing nationwide protests over police brutality and systemic racism. The rise of the Black Lives Matter movement, which activists founded in 2013, has led the U.S. to its largest collective push for civil rights since the 1960s.

    Ads by scrollerads.com

    Calls to defund and even abolish entire police departments are popular talking points among BLM activists. Miski Noor, an organizer and activist with Black Visions Collective in Minnesota, recently told WBUR that abolitionists "100 percent" mean they want no more police officers.

    On May 30, five days after George Floyd died at the hands of Minneapolis police officers, BLM called for the of defunding police in a statement on its website.

    "We call for an end to the systemic racism that allows this culture of corruption to go unchecked and our lives to be taken," according to the statement. "We call for a national defunding of police. We demand investment in our communities and the resources to ensure Black people not only survive, but thrive."

    While defunding police departments wouldn't necessarily mean that fewer police officers are out on the streets, data from the Gallup poll suggests a majority of Black Americans still want a continued police presence in their communities.

    The poll found that the biggest racial gaps were concerning police fairness and perceived bias. Just 18 percent of Black Americans said they felt "very confident" that local police would treat them with courtesy and respect during an interaction—a number vastly lower than the national average.The majority of U.S. adults polled (48 percent) said they were "very confident" their interaction with police would be positive.

    Of the white Americans polled, 56 percent said they were "very confident" they would be treated with courtesy and respect, suggesting evidence of racial bias during police interactions.

    chinese-happy.jpg
  • The JugglerThe Juggler Behind that bush over there.Posts: 39,937
    rgambs said:
    I believe in the message behind "defund the police", but I am also a 'language guy' and I can't abide a slogan that doesn't come close to accurately stating its own goal 🤦‍♂️
    YES. Thank you! 
    chinese-happy.jpg
  • stuckinlinestuckinline Posts: 3,149
    edited December 2020
  • Such a yucky choice in the year of Corona. 
    "Mostly I think that people react sensitively because they know you’ve got a point"
  • Such a yucky choice in the year of Corona. 
    Damn. Poor Bernie. Poor AOC. Shattered. How will they ever continue? Or was it some Swede epidemiologist flashing meme that should have been it? Guess there’s still the No Bell, eh?
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  • Such a yucky choice in the year of Corona. 
    Damn. Poor Bernie. Poor AOC. Shattered. How will they ever continue? Or was it some Swede epidemiologist flashing meme that should have been it? Guess there’s still the No Bell, eh?
    Whatever.
    "Mostly I think that people react sensitively because they know you’ve got a point"
  • static111static111 Posts: 2,539
    Such a yucky choice in the year of Corona. 
    I agree.  It’s weird that you can get on a magazine cover for just being better than trump.  In that case they could have put a mirror on the cover again.
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