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  • JeBurkhardtJeBurkhardt Posts: 723

    The thing that worries me about this is that there is already so much anger and feeling of being "left behind" by the changes they see happening. The more they are marginalized, the more they are going to turn (even more than do already) to sources that use that sense of alienization to even further their radicalization. I wouldn't advocate compromising what is important to making the nation better for everyone, but there is a big risk in shunning them and letting the chips fall where they may.  
    I don't disagree, but the question remains, how do you compromise with people who are literally detached from reality? 

    The problem lies with GOP leadership who continues to perpetrate the sense of victim hood. 

    Yesterday, Matt Gaetz, referred to the constitutional mechanism of impeachment, in this case being used against a president who tried to overturn an election and incited a riot that killed a police officer, as the "zenith of cancel culture".

    I don't see how we move forward with people like this. 

    I'm not advocating for anything at the moment, just throwing my hands up in desperation more than anything else. 
    You are right, but as unlikely as it sounds, it is going to have to be done internally in the GOP. They are going to have to try to appeal to those who will listen, that "owning the libs" isn't as important as having a country at peace and productive. Many will resist, and the creation of some short lived "Patriot Party" might actually happen. Once a couple of election cycles happen, and the reality of two essentially groups fighting for conservative influence costs them dearly in elections, I think you will see many turn away from the extremists. At least I hope so. The short term will be rough, but hopefully in the long term we can see some progress. 
    Too far gone.
    Some for sure, but I suspect once the cult of personality that is Trump starts to fade, some will see clearer. The key is him no longer being a valid candidate. There is no one in the GOP, including his family, that I think has the ability to enthrall people into following mindlessly the way we have seen. 
  • Merkin BallerMerkin Baller Posts: 5,354

    The thing that worries me about this is that there is already so much anger and feeling of being "left behind" by the changes they see happening. The more they are marginalized, the more they are going to turn (even more than do already) to sources that use that sense of alienization to even further their radicalization. I wouldn't advocate compromising what is important to making the nation better for everyone, but there is a big risk in shunning them and letting the chips fall where they may.  
    I don't disagree, but the question remains, how do you compromise with people who are literally detached from reality? 

    The problem lies with GOP leadership who continues to perpetrate the sense of victim hood. 

    Yesterday, Matt Gaetz, referred to the constitutional mechanism of impeachment, in this case being used against a president who tried to overturn an election and incited a riot that killed a police officer, as the "zenith of cancel culture".

    I don't see how we move forward with people like this. 

    I'm not advocating for anything at the moment, just throwing my hands up in desperation more than anything else. 
    You are right, but as unlikely as it sounds, it is going to have to be done internally in the GOP. They are going to have to try to appeal to those who will listen, that "owning the libs" isn't as important as having a country at peace and productive. Many will resist, and the creation of some short lived "Patriot Party" might actually happen. Once a couple of election cycles happen, and the reality of two essentially groups fighting for conservative influence costs them dearly in elections, I think you will see many turn away from the extremists. At least I hope so. The short term will be rough, but hopefully in the long term we can see some progress. 
    Too far gone.
    Some for sure, but I suspect once the cult of personality that is Trump starts to fade, some will see clearer. The key is him no longer being a valid candidate. There is no one in the GOP, including his family, that I think has the ability to enthrall people into following mindlessly the way we have seen. 
    This is my hope also, the change in the GOP has to come from within. 


  • mrussel1mrussel1 Posts: 20,788

    The thing that worries me about this is that there is already so much anger and feeling of being "left behind" by the changes they see happening. The more they are marginalized, the more they are going to turn (even more than do already) to sources that use that sense of alienization to even further their radicalization. I wouldn't advocate compromising what is important to making the nation better for everyone, but there is a big risk in shunning them and letting the chips fall where they may.  
    I don't disagree, but the question remains, how do you compromise with people who are literally detached from reality? 

    The problem lies with GOP leadership who continues to perpetrate the sense of victim hood. 

    Yesterday, Matt Gaetz, referred to the constitutional mechanism of impeachment, in this case being used against a president who tried to overturn an election and incited a riot that killed a police officer, as the "zenith of cancel culture".

    I don't see how we move forward with people like this. 

    I'm not advocating for anything at the moment, just throwing my hands up in desperation more than anything else. 
    Who said the Founding Fathers did not have wonderful foresight.  We should celebrate it. 
  • Merkin BallerMerkin Baller Posts: 5,354
    mrussel1 said:

    The thing that worries me about this is that there is already so much anger and feeling of being "left behind" by the changes they see happening. The more they are marginalized, the more they are going to turn (even more than do already) to sources that use that sense of alienization to even further their radicalization. I wouldn't advocate compromising what is important to making the nation better for everyone, but there is a big risk in shunning them and letting the chips fall where they may.  
    I don't disagree, but the question remains, how do you compromise with people who are literally detached from reality? 

    The problem lies with GOP leadership who continues to perpetrate the sense of victim hood. 

    Yesterday, Matt Gaetz, referred to the constitutional mechanism of impeachment, in this case being used against a president who tried to overturn an election and incited a riot that killed a police officer, as the "zenith of cancel culture".

    I don't see how we move forward with people like this. 

    I'm not advocating for anything at the moment, just throwing my hands up in desperation more than anything else. 
    Who said the Founding Fathers did not have wonderful foresight.  We should celebrate it. 
    The Founding Fathers of cancel culture according to Matt Rick Gaetz. 

    This is the dumbest time to be alive. 

  • Halifax2TheMaxHalifax2TheMax Posts: 27,327

    The thing that worries me about this is that there is already so much anger and feeling of being "left behind" by the changes they see happening. The more they are marginalized, the more they are going to turn (even more than do already) to sources that use that sense of alienization to even further their radicalization. I wouldn't advocate compromising what is important to making the nation better for everyone, but there is a big risk in shunning them and letting the chips fall where they may.  
    I don't disagree, but the question remains, how do you compromise with people who are literally detached from reality? 

    The problem lies with GOP leadership who continues to perpetrate the sense of victim hood. 

    Yesterday, Matt Gaetz, referred to the constitutional mechanism of impeachment, in this case being used against a president who tried to overturn an election and incited a riot that killed a police officer, as the "zenith of cancel culture".

    I don't see how we move forward with people like this. 

    I'm not advocating for anything at the moment, just throwing my hands up in desperation more than anything else. 
    You are right, but as unlikely as it sounds, it is going to have to be done internally in the GOP. They are going to have to try to appeal to those who will listen, that "owning the libs" isn't as important as having a country at peace and productive. Many will resist, and the creation of some short lived "Patriot Party" might actually happen. Once a couple of election cycles happen, and the reality of two essentially groups fighting for conservative influence costs them dearly in elections, I think you will see many turn away from the extremists. At least I hope so. The short term will be rough, but hopefully in the long term we can see some progress. 
    Too far gone.
    Some for sure, but I suspect once the cult of personality that is Trump starts to fade, some will see clearer. The key is him no longer being a valid candidate. There is no one in the GOP, including his family, that I think has the ability to enthrall people into following mindlessly the way we have seen. 
    This is my hope also, the change in the GOP has to come from within. 

    It can't and it won't. They've gerrymandered themselves into districts full of Q cultists, detached from any kind of reality. Its going to take a few more election cycles of red states, at the least, turning purple and more dem seats in the senate. Foregoing that, QAnon adherents will continue to be elected, at all levels. They're all in as they have no alternative policy to address the real pressing issues of the day, except god, guns and freedumb. And look where that's gotten us. President Biden comes out with an EO for the federal government to buy American and its immediately dismissed as contributing to the budget deficit.
    09/15/1998, Mansfield, MA; 08/29/00 08/30/00, Mansfield, MA; 07/02/03, 07/03/03, Mansfield, MA; 09/28/04, 09/29/04, Boston, MA; 09/22/05, Halifax, NS; 05/24/06, 05/25/06, Boston, MA; 07/22/06, 07/23/06, Gorge, WA; 06/29/08, 06/30/08, Mansfield, MA; 08/18/08, O2 London, UK; 10/30/09, 10/31/09, Philadelphia, PA; 05/15/10, Hartford, CT; 05/17/10, Boston, MA; 05/20/10, 05/21/10, NY, NY; 06/22/10, Dublin, IRE; 06/23/10, Northern Ireland; 09/03/11, 09/04/11, Alpine Valley, WI; 09/11/11, 09/12/11, Toronto, Ont; 09/14/11, Ottawa, Ont; 09/15/11, Hamilton, Ont; 07/02/2012, Prague, Czech Republic; 07/04/2012 & 07/05/2012, Berlin, Germany; 07/07/2012, Stockholm, Sweden; 09/30/2012, Missoula, MT; 07/16/2013, London, Ont; 07/19/2013, Chicago, IL; 10/15/2013 & 10/16/2013, Worcester, MA; 10/21/2013 & 10/22/2013, Philadelphia, PA; 10/25/2013, Hartford, CT; 11/29/2013, Portland, OR; 11/30/2013, Spokane, WA; 12/04/2013, Vancouver, BC; 12/06/2013, Seattle, WA; 10/03/2014, St. Louis. MO; 10/22/2014, Denver, CO; 10/26/2015, New York, NY; 04/23/2016, New Orleans, LA; 04/28/2016 & 04/29/2016, Philadelphia, PA; 05/01/2016 & 05/02/2016, New York, NY; 05/08/2016, Ottawa, Ont.; 05/10/2016 & 05/12/2016, Toronto, Ont.; 08/05/2016 & 08/07/2016, Boston, MA; 08/20/2016 & 08/22/2016, Chicago, IL; 07/01/2018, Prague, Czech Republic; 07/03/2018, Krakow, Poland; 07/05/2018, Berlin, Germany; 09/02/2018 & 09/04/2018, Boston, MA;

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  • Lerxst1992Lerxst1992 Posts: 3,997

    The thing that worries me about this is that there is already so much anger and feeling of being "left behind" by the changes they see happening. The more they are marginalized, the more they are going to turn (even more than do already) to sources that use that sense of alienization to even further their radicalization. I wouldn't advocate compromising what is important to making the nation better for everyone, but there is a big risk in shunning them and letting the chips fall where they may.  
    I don't disagree, but the question remains, how do you compromise with people who are literally detached from reality? 

    The problem lies with GOP leadership who continues to perpetrate the sense of victim hood. 

    Yesterday, Matt Gaetz, referred to the constitutional mechanism of impeachment, in this case being used against a president who tried to overturn an election and incited a riot that killed a police officer, as the "zenith of cancel culture".

    I don't see how we move forward with people like this. 

    I'm not advocating for anything at the moment, just throwing my hands up in desperation more than anything else. 

    How do you deal with friends and family who believe the big lie that led to five deaths at the Capitol?
  • static111static111 Posts: 2,395
    edited January 26

    The thing that worries me about this is that there is already so much anger and feeling of being "left behind" by the changes they see happening. The more they are marginalized, the more they are going to turn (even more than do already) to sources that use that sense of alienization to even further their radicalization. I wouldn't advocate compromising what is important to making the nation better for everyone, but there is a big risk in shunning them and letting the chips fall where they may.  
    I don't disagree, but the question remains, how do you compromise with people who are literally detached from reality? 

    The problem lies with GOP leadership who continues to perpetrate the sense of victim hood. 

    Yesterday, Matt Gaetz, referred to the constitutional mechanism of impeachment, in this case being used against a president who tried to overturn an election and incited a riot that killed a police officer, as the "zenith of cancel culture".

    I don't see how we move forward with people like this. 

    I'm not advocating for anything at the moment, just throwing my hands up in desperation more than anything else. 

    How do you deal with friends and family who believe the big lie that led to five deaths at the Capitol?
    I got rid of them before it got that far because I knew they were irredeemable. 
  • static111static111 Posts: 2,395

    The thing that worries me about this is that there is already so much anger and feeling of being "left behind" by the changes they see happening. The more they are marginalized, the more they are going to turn (even more than do already) to sources that use that sense of alienization to even further their radicalization. I wouldn't advocate compromising what is important to making the nation better for everyone, but there is a big risk in shunning them and letting the chips fall where they may.  
    We have to leave them behind and leave a pathway to catch up.  They will claw and kick and scream to keep any forward progress from happening.  They are too far gone.  We need to get done what we can to move forward at all costs, because in two years this will all be a memory and the GOP like it does every time, will unite to own the libs and elect a new handful of assholes that will make it even harder to get things done.
  • Merkin BallerMerkin Baller Posts: 5,354

    The thing that worries me about this is that there is already so much anger and feeling of being "left behind" by the changes they see happening. The more they are marginalized, the more they are going to turn (even more than do already) to sources that use that sense of alienization to even further their radicalization. I wouldn't advocate compromising what is important to making the nation better for everyone, but there is a big risk in shunning them and letting the chips fall where they may.  
    I don't disagree, but the question remains, how do you compromise with people who are literally detached from reality? 

    The problem lies with GOP leadership who continues to perpetrate the sense of victim hood. 

    Yesterday, Matt Gaetz, referred to the constitutional mechanism of impeachment, in this case being used against a president who tried to overturn an election and incited a riot that killed a police officer, as the "zenith of cancel culture".

    I don't see how we move forward with people like this. 

    I'm not advocating for anything at the moment, just throwing my hands up in desperation more than anything else. 

    How do you deal with friends and family who believe the big lie that led to five deaths at the Capitol?
    If any of my friends or family truly believe the big lie, they haven't admitted as such. The most I've heard from one person is that 'there are questions that need answers' in regards to the election, but when I asked what questions, I didn't get much of a response. 

  • mrussel1mrussel1 Posts: 20,788

    The thing that worries me about this is that there is already so much anger and feeling of being "left behind" by the changes they see happening. The more they are marginalized, the more they are going to turn (even more than do already) to sources that use that sense of alienization to even further their radicalization. I wouldn't advocate compromising what is important to making the nation better for everyone, but there is a big risk in shunning them and letting the chips fall where they may.  
    I don't disagree, but the question remains, how do you compromise with people who are literally detached from reality? 

    The problem lies with GOP leadership who continues to perpetrate the sense of victim hood. 

    Yesterday, Matt Gaetz, referred to the constitutional mechanism of impeachment, in this case being used against a president who tried to overturn an election and incited a riot that killed a police officer, as the "zenith of cancel culture".

    I don't see how we move forward with people like this. 

    I'm not advocating for anything at the moment, just throwing my hands up in desperation more than anything else. 

    How do you deal with friends and family who believe the big lie that led to five deaths at the Capitol?
    If any of my friends or family truly believe the big lie, they haven't admitted as such. The most I've heard from one person is that 'there are questions that need answers' in regards to the election, but when I asked what questions, I didn't get much of a response. 
    As always, they are just "doing their research", "looking at it from all angles", etc.  It's sad that these conspiracy peddlers have convinced their victims that they are the ones that are open minded.  That we are the sheeple, etc.  I do think we need to start thinking about htem as victims and figure out a way to bring friends and family members back, without alienating or shaming them. 
  • Merkin BallerMerkin Baller Posts: 5,354
    mrussel1 said:

    The thing that worries me about this is that there is already so much anger and feeling of being "left behind" by the changes they see happening. The more they are marginalized, the more they are going to turn (even more than do already) to sources that use that sense of alienization to even further their radicalization. I wouldn't advocate compromising what is important to making the nation better for everyone, but there is a big risk in shunning them and letting the chips fall where they may.  
    I don't disagree, but the question remains, how do you compromise with people who are literally detached from reality? 

    The problem lies with GOP leadership who continues to perpetrate the sense of victim hood. 

    Yesterday, Matt Gaetz, referred to the constitutional mechanism of impeachment, in this case being used against a president who tried to overturn an election and incited a riot that killed a police officer, as the "zenith of cancel culture".

    I don't see how we move forward with people like this. 

    I'm not advocating for anything at the moment, just throwing my hands up in desperation more than anything else. 

    How do you deal with friends and family who believe the big lie that led to five deaths at the Capitol?
    If any of my friends or family truly believe the big lie, they haven't admitted as such. The most I've heard from one person is that 'there are questions that need answers' in regards to the election, but when I asked what questions, I didn't get much of a response. 
    As always, they are just "doing their research", "looking at it from all angles", etc.  It's sad that these conspiracy peddlers have convinced their victims that they are the ones that are open minded.  That we are the sheeple, etc.  I do think we need to start thinking about htem as victims and figure out a way to bring friends and family members back, without alienating or shaming them. 
    I agree, berating people is not the way to go about it. 

    With that being said, I don't think there's much any of us can do other than tell the truth, and that won't be enough. Until the GOP tells the truth, it won't make a difference. 

  • tempo_n_groovetempo_n_groove Posts: 26,278
    mrussel1 said:

    The thing that worries me about this is that there is already so much anger and feeling of being "left behind" by the changes they see happening. The more they are marginalized, the more they are going to turn (even more than do already) to sources that use that sense of alienization to even further their radicalization. I wouldn't advocate compromising what is important to making the nation better for everyone, but there is a big risk in shunning them and letting the chips fall where they may.  
    I don't disagree, but the question remains, how do you compromise with people who are literally detached from reality? 

    The problem lies with GOP leadership who continues to perpetrate the sense of victim hood. 

    Yesterday, Matt Gaetz, referred to the constitutional mechanism of impeachment, in this case being used against a president who tried to overturn an election and incited a riot that killed a police officer, as the "zenith of cancel culture".

    I don't see how we move forward with people like this. 

    I'm not advocating for anything at the moment, just throwing my hands up in desperation more than anything else. 

    How do you deal with friends and family who believe the big lie that led to five deaths at the Capitol?
    If any of my friends or family truly believe the big lie, they haven't admitted as such. The most I've heard from one person is that 'there are questions that need answers' in regards to the election, but when I asked what questions, I didn't get much of a response. 
    As always, they are just "doing their research", "looking at it from all angles", etc.  It's sad that these conspiracy peddlers have convinced their victims that they are the ones that are open minded.  That we are the sheeple, etc.  I do think we need to start thinking about htem as victims and figure out a way to bring friends and family members back, without alienating or shaming them. 
    I agree, berating people is not the way to go about it. 

    With that being said, I don't think there's much any of us can do other than tell the truth, and that won't be enough. Until the GOP tells the truth, it won't make a difference. 
    Most people think all politicians lie so them telling the truth is moot.

    Main thing conservative people want is a secure border, stop giving illegals drivers licenses, and stop giving illegals free stuff whether it be welfare or medical.

    The last one w the free stuff I haven't really got a good answer from research.  At our local hospital they give families without benefits heavily discounted rates that you have to fill out paperwork for.  I have no idea if they give it away for free.  As for welfare I am not sure either as I can't find a definitive answer.
  • benjsbenjs Toronto, ONPosts: 8,331
    mrussel1 said:

    The thing that worries me about this is that there is already so much anger and feeling of being "left behind" by the changes they see happening. The more they are marginalized, the more they are going to turn (even more than do already) to sources that use that sense of alienization to even further their radicalization. I wouldn't advocate compromising what is important to making the nation better for everyone, but there is a big risk in shunning them and letting the chips fall where they may.  
    I don't disagree, but the question remains, how do you compromise with people who are literally detached from reality? 

    The problem lies with GOP leadership who continues to perpetrate the sense of victim hood. 

    Yesterday, Matt Gaetz, referred to the constitutional mechanism of impeachment, in this case being used against a president who tried to overturn an election and incited a riot that killed a police officer, as the "zenith of cancel culture".

    I don't see how we move forward with people like this. 

    I'm not advocating for anything at the moment, just throwing my hands up in desperation more than anything else. 

    How do you deal with friends and family who believe the big lie that led to five deaths at the Capitol?
    If any of my friends or family truly believe the big lie, they haven't admitted as such. The most I've heard from one person is that 'there are questions that need answers' in regards to the election, but when I asked what questions, I didn't get much of a response. 
    As always, they are just "doing their research", "looking at it from all angles", etc.  It's sad that these conspiracy peddlers have convinced their victims that they are the ones that are open minded.  That we are the sheeple, etc.  I do think we need to start thinking about htem as victims and figure out a way to bring friends and family members back, without alienating or shaming them. 
    I agree, berating people is not the way to go about it. 

    With that being said, I don't think there's much any of us can do other than tell the truth, and that won't be enough. Until the GOP tells the truth, it won't make a difference. 
    Most people think all politicians lie so them telling the truth is moot.

    Main thing conservative people want is a secure border, stop giving illegals drivers licenses, and stop giving illegals free stuff whether it be welfare or medical.

    The last one w the free stuff I haven't really got a good answer from research.  At our local hospital they give families without benefits heavily discounted rates that you have to fill out paperwork for.  I have no idea if they give it away for free.  As for welfare I am not sure either as I can't find a definitive answer.
    Forgive me if I just don't understand the American health care system, but aren't hospitals private, meaning it would be a corporate decision to make whether to assist those individuals?

    In terms of welfare (or access to drivers' licenses), I thought this had been debunked, and the only plausible option is that states aren't requiring the correct identification which would prove eligibility for these services. I don't think there's any opposition to resolving that.

    One last comment - due to the exploitation of undocumented immigrants by corporations who pay below minimum wage, and do so without documenting that income, it's far easier to demonstrate the cost of undocumented immigrants than it is to demonstrate the benefits they've brought to American society.
    '05 - TO, '06 - TO 1, '08 - NYC 1 & 2, '09 - TO, Chi 1 & 2, '10 - Buffalo, NYC 1 & 2, '11 - TO 1 & 2, Hamilton, '13 - Buffalo, Brooklyn 1 & 2, '15 - Global Citizen, '16 - TO 1 & 2, Chi 2

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  • mrussel1mrussel1 Posts: 20,788
    mrussel1 said:

    The thing that worries me about this is that there is already so much anger and feeling of being "left behind" by the changes they see happening. The more they are marginalized, the more they are going to turn (even more than do already) to sources that use that sense of alienization to even further their radicalization. I wouldn't advocate compromising what is important to making the nation better for everyone, but there is a big risk in shunning them and letting the chips fall where they may.  
    I don't disagree, but the question remains, how do you compromise with people who are literally detached from reality? 

    The problem lies with GOP leadership who continues to perpetrate the sense of victim hood. 

    Yesterday, Matt Gaetz, referred to the constitutional mechanism of impeachment, in this case being used against a president who tried to overturn an election and incited a riot that killed a police officer, as the "zenith of cancel culture".

    I don't see how we move forward with people like this. 

    I'm not advocating for anything at the moment, just throwing my hands up in desperation more than anything else. 

    How do you deal with friends and family who believe the big lie that led to five deaths at the Capitol?
    If any of my friends or family truly believe the big lie, they haven't admitted as such. The most I've heard from one person is that 'there are questions that need answers' in regards to the election, but when I asked what questions, I didn't get much of a response. 
    As always, they are just "doing their research", "looking at it from all angles", etc.  It's sad that these conspiracy peddlers have convinced their victims that they are the ones that are open minded.  That we are the sheeple, etc.  I do think we need to start thinking about htem as victims and figure out a way to bring friends and family members back, without alienating or shaming them. 
    I agree, berating people is not the way to go about it. 

    With that being said, I don't think there's much any of us can do other than tell the truth, and that won't be enough. Until the GOP tells the truth, it won't make a difference. 
    Most people think all politicians lie so them telling the truth is moot.

    Main thing conservative people want is a secure border, stop giving illegals drivers licenses, and stop giving illegals free stuff whether it be welfare or medical.

    The last one w the free stuff I haven't really got a good answer from research.  At our local hospital they give families without benefits heavily discounted rates that you have to fill out paperwork for.  I have no idea if they give it away for free.  As for welfare I am not sure either as I can't find a definitive answer.
    I'm not sure that's the definition of a Bill Buckley conservative right there.  I don't recall the National Review being formed to stop illegal aliens as its raison d'etre. Immigration was never a wedge issue until about ten or 15 years ago.  
  • tempo_n_groovetempo_n_groove Posts: 26,278
    mrussel1 said:
    mrussel1 said:

    The thing that worries me about this is that there is already so much anger and feeling of being "left behind" by the changes they see happening. The more they are marginalized, the more they are going to turn (even more than do already) to sources that use that sense of alienization to even further their radicalization. I wouldn't advocate compromising what is important to making the nation better for everyone, but there is a big risk in shunning them and letting the chips fall where they may.  
    I don't disagree, but the question remains, how do you compromise with people who are literally detached from reality? 

    The problem lies with GOP leadership who continues to perpetrate the sense of victim hood. 

    Yesterday, Matt Gaetz, referred to the constitutional mechanism of impeachment, in this case being used against a president who tried to overturn an election and incited a riot that killed a police officer, as the "zenith of cancel culture".

    I don't see how we move forward with people like this. 

    I'm not advocating for anything at the moment, just throwing my hands up in desperation more than anything else. 

    How do you deal with friends and family who believe the big lie that led to five deaths at the Capitol?
    If any of my friends or family truly believe the big lie, they haven't admitted as such. The most I've heard from one person is that 'there are questions that need answers' in regards to the election, but when I asked what questions, I didn't get much of a response. 
    As always, they are just "doing their research", "looking at it from all angles", etc.  It's sad that these conspiracy peddlers have convinced their victims that they are the ones that are open minded.  That we are the sheeple, etc.  I do think we need to start thinking about htem as victims and figure out a way to bring friends and family members back, without alienating or shaming them. 
    I agree, berating people is not the way to go about it. 

    With that being said, I don't think there's much any of us can do other than tell the truth, and that won't be enough. Until the GOP tells the truth, it won't make a difference. 
    Most people think all politicians lie so them telling the truth is moot.

    Main thing conservative people want is a secure border, stop giving illegals drivers licenses, and stop giving illegals free stuff whether it be welfare or medical.

    The last one w the free stuff I haven't really got a good answer from research.  At our local hospital they give families without benefits heavily discounted rates that you have to fill out paperwork for.  I have no idea if they give it away for free.  As for welfare I am not sure either as I can't find a definitive answer.
    I'm not sure that's the definition of a Bill Buckley conservative right there.  I don't recall the National Review being formed to stop illegal aliens as its raison d'etre. Immigration was never a wedge issue until about ten or 15 years ago.  
    We are in a different time now and this is the talking points that they want addressed.

    I don't understand the drivers license thing myself.

    Schools too.  There is a heavy burden on the school systems with ESL kids.  Not enough help for teachers and a strain on budgets.
  • tempo_n_groovetempo_n_groove Posts: 26,278
    benjs said:
    mrussel1 said:

    The thing that worries me about this is that there is already so much anger and feeling of being "left behind" by the changes they see happening. The more they are marginalized, the more they are going to turn (even more than do already) to sources that use that sense of alienization to even further their radicalization. I wouldn't advocate compromising what is important to making the nation better for everyone, but there is a big risk in shunning them and letting the chips fall where they may.  
    I don't disagree, but the question remains, how do you compromise with people who are literally detached from reality? 

    The problem lies with GOP leadership who continues to perpetrate the sense of victim hood. 

    Yesterday, Matt Gaetz, referred to the constitutional mechanism of impeachment, in this case being used against a president who tried to overturn an election and incited a riot that killed a police officer, as the "zenith of cancel culture".

    I don't see how we move forward with people like this. 

    I'm not advocating for anything at the moment, just throwing my hands up in desperation more than anything else. 

    How do you deal with friends and family who believe the big lie that led to five deaths at the Capitol?
    If any of my friends or family truly believe the big lie, they haven't admitted as such. The most I've heard from one person is that 'there are questions that need answers' in regards to the election, but when I asked what questions, I didn't get much of a response. 
    As always, they are just "doing their research", "looking at it from all angles", etc.  It's sad that these conspiracy peddlers have convinced their victims that they are the ones that are open minded.  That we are the sheeple, etc.  I do think we need to start thinking about htem as victims and figure out a way to bring friends and family members back, without alienating or shaming them. 
    I agree, berating people is not the way to go about it. 

    With that being said, I don't think there's much any of us can do other than tell the truth, and that won't be enough. Until the GOP tells the truth, it won't make a difference. 
    Most people think all politicians lie so them telling the truth is moot.

    Main thing conservative people want is a secure border, stop giving illegals drivers licenses, and stop giving illegals free stuff whether it be welfare or medical.

    The last one w the free stuff I haven't really got a good answer from research.  At our local hospital they give families without benefits heavily discounted rates that you have to fill out paperwork for.  I have no idea if they give it away for free.  As for welfare I am not sure either as I can't find a definitive answer.
    Forgive me if I just don't understand the American health care system, but aren't hospitals private, meaning it would be a corporate decision to make whether to assist those individuals?

    In terms of welfare (or access to drivers' licenses), I thought this had been debunked, and the only plausible option is that states aren't requiring the correct identification which would prove eligibility for these services. I don't think there's any opposition to resolving that.

    One last comment - due to the exploitation of undocumented immigrants by corporations who pay below minimum wage, and do so without documenting that income, it's far easier to demonstrate the cost of undocumented immigrants than it is to demonstrate the benefits they've brought to American society.
    In the US you can not be denied care.  It is illegal to deny someone care whether they can pay for it or not.

    In NY they are allowed to get a Drivers License.  I still haven't found enough info on how they receive welfare or not.  Nothing is concrete with that.

    Last comment.  Most undocumented do take lower wage jobs then there are the construction industry.  I have witnessed the possession of stolen SS cards so they could work at prevailing wage jobs.  That's pretty ballsy but it does happen quite often on bigger jobs.  There have been fail safes to try and stop this but unless it's a state of the art background check this still goes on.
  • mrussel1mrussel1 Posts: 20,788
    benjs said:
    mrussel1 said:

    The thing that worries me about this is that there is already so much anger and feeling of being "left behind" by the changes they see happening. The more they are marginalized, the more they are going to turn (even more than do already) to sources that use that sense of alienization to even further their radicalization. I wouldn't advocate compromising what is important to making the nation better for everyone, but there is a big risk in shunning them and letting the chips fall where they may.  
    I don't disagree, but the question remains, how do you compromise with people who are literally detached from reality? 

    The problem lies with GOP leadership who continues to perpetrate the sense of victim hood. 

    Yesterday, Matt Gaetz, referred to the constitutional mechanism of impeachment, in this case being used against a president who tried to overturn an election and incited a riot that killed a police officer, as the "zenith of cancel culture".

    I don't see how we move forward with people like this. 

    I'm not advocating for anything at the moment, just throwing my hands up in desperation more than anything else. 

    How do you deal with friends and family who believe the big lie that led to five deaths at the Capitol?
    If any of my friends or family truly believe the big lie, they haven't admitted as such. The most I've heard from one person is that 'there are questions that need answers' in regards to the election, but when I asked what questions, I didn't get much of a response. 
    As always, they are just "doing their research", "looking at it from all angles", etc.  It's sad that these conspiracy peddlers have convinced their victims that they are the ones that are open minded.  That we are the sheeple, etc.  I do think we need to start thinking about htem as victims and figure out a way to bring friends and family members back, without alienating or shaming them. 
    I agree, berating people is not the way to go about it. 

    With that being said, I don't think there's much any of us can do other than tell the truth, and that won't be enough. Until the GOP tells the truth, it won't make a difference. 
    Most people think all politicians lie so them telling the truth is moot.

    Main thing conservative people want is a secure border, stop giving illegals drivers licenses, and stop giving illegals free stuff whether it be welfare or medical.

    The last one w the free stuff I haven't really got a good answer from research.  At our local hospital they give families without benefits heavily discounted rates that you have to fill out paperwork for.  I have no idea if they give it away for free.  As for welfare I am not sure either as I can't find a definitive answer.
    Forgive me if I just don't understand the American health care system, but aren't hospitals private, meaning it would be a corporate decision to make whether to assist those individuals?

    In terms of welfare (or access to drivers' licenses), I thought this had been debunked, and the only plausible option is that states aren't requiring the correct identification which would prove eligibility for these services. I don't think there's any opposition to resolving that.

    One last comment - due to the exploitation of undocumented immigrants by corporations who pay below minimum wage, and do so without documenting that income, it's far easier to demonstrate the cost of undocumented immigrants than it is to demonstrate the benefits they've brought to American society.
    In the US you can not be denied care.  It is illegal to deny someone care whether they can pay for it or not.

    In NY they are allowed to get a Drivers License.  I still haven't found enough info on how they receive welfare or not.  Nothing is concrete with that.

    Last comment.  Most undocumented do take lower wage jobs then there are the construction industry.  I have witnessed the possession of stolen SS cards so they could work at prevailing wage jobs.  That's pretty ballsy but it does happen quite often on bigger jobs.  There have been fail safes to try and stop this but unless it's a state of the art background check this still goes on.
    Wouldn't you agree that if construction, farms, landscaping and other such companies actually did I9 checks and didn't hire undocumented worker, that would be a more effective way to manage the 'problem'?  We hear the demonization of humans trying to give themselves a better life, but not demonization of the business owners who are drawing them here. 
  • mickeyratmickeyrat Posts: 20,595
    mrussel1 said:
    benjs said:
    mrussel1 said:

    The thing that worries me about this is that there is already so much anger and feeling of being "left behind" by the changes they see happening. The more they are marginalized, the more they are going to turn (even more than do already) to sources that use that sense of alienization to even further their radicalization. I wouldn't advocate compromising what is important to making the nation better for everyone, but there is a big risk in shunning them and letting the chips fall where they may.  
    I don't disagree, but the question remains, how do you compromise with people who are literally detached from reality? 

    The problem lies with GOP leadership who continues to perpetrate the sense of victim hood. 

    Yesterday, Matt Gaetz, referred to the constitutional mechanism of impeachment, in this case being used against a president who tried to overturn an election and incited a riot that killed a police officer, as the "zenith of cancel culture".

    I don't see how we move forward with people like this. 

    I'm not advocating for anything at the moment, just throwing my hands up in desperation more than anything else. 

    How do you deal with friends and family who believe the big lie that led to five deaths at the Capitol?
    If any of my friends or family truly believe the big lie, they haven't admitted as such. The most I've heard from one person is that 'there are questions that need answers' in regards to the election, but when I asked what questions, I didn't get much of a response. 
    As always, they are just "doing their research", "looking at it from all angles", etc.  It's sad that these conspiracy peddlers have convinced their victims that they are the ones that are open minded.  That we are the sheeple, etc.  I do think we need to start thinking about htem as victims and figure out a way to bring friends and family members back, without alienating or shaming them. 
    I agree, berating people is not the way to go about it. 

    With that being said, I don't think there's much any of us can do other than tell the truth, and that won't be enough. Until the GOP tells the truth, it won't make a difference. 
    Most people think all politicians lie so them telling the truth is moot.

    Main thing conservative people want is a secure border, stop giving illegals drivers licenses, and stop giving illegals free stuff whether it be welfare or medical.

    The last one w the free stuff I haven't really got a good answer from research.  At our local hospital they give families without benefits heavily discounted rates that you have to fill out paperwork for.  I have no idea if they give it away for free.  As for welfare I am not sure either as I can't find a definitive answer.
    Forgive me if I just don't understand the American health care system, but aren't hospitals private, meaning it would be a corporate decision to make whether to assist those individuals?

    In terms of welfare (or access to drivers' licenses), I thought this had been debunked, and the only plausible option is that states aren't requiring the correct identification which would prove eligibility for these services. I don't think there's any opposition to resolving that.

    One last comment - due to the exploitation of undocumented immigrants by corporations who pay below minimum wage, and do so without documenting that income, it's far easier to demonstrate the cost of undocumented immigrants than it is to demonstrate the benefits they've brought to American society.
    In the US you can not be denied care.  It is illegal to deny someone care whether they can pay for it or not.

    In NY they are allowed to get a Drivers License.  I still haven't found enough info on how they receive welfare or not.  Nothing is concrete with that.

    Last comment.  Most undocumented do take lower wage jobs then there are the construction industry.  I have witnessed the possession of stolen SS cards so they could work at prevailing wage jobs.  That's pretty ballsy but it does happen quite often on bigger jobs.  There have been fail safes to try and stop this but unless it's a state of the art background check this still goes on.
    Wouldn't you agree that if construction, farms, landscaping and other such companies actually did I9 checks and didn't hire undocumented worker, that would be a more effective way to manage the 'problem'?  We hear the demonization of humans trying to give themselves a better life, but not demonization of the business owners who are drawing them here. 
    and all those industries and more objected to laws or regs to do that very thing.

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  • OnWis97OnWis97 St. Paul, MNPosts: 3,627
    mrussel1 said:

    The thing that worries me about this is that there is already so much anger and feeling of being "left behind" by the changes they see happening. The more they are marginalized, the more they are going to turn (even more than do already) to sources that use that sense of alienization to even further their radicalization. I wouldn't advocate compromising what is important to making the nation better for everyone, but there is a big risk in shunning them and letting the chips fall where they may.  
    I don't disagree, but the question remains, how do you compromise with people who are literally detached from reality? 

    The problem lies with GOP leadership who continues to perpetrate the sense of victim hood. 

    Yesterday, Matt Gaetz, referred to the constitutional mechanism of impeachment, in this case being used against a president who tried to overturn an election and incited a riot that killed a police officer, as the "zenith of cancel culture".

    I don't see how we move forward with people like this. 

    I'm not advocating for anything at the moment, just throwing my hands up in desperation more than anything else. 

    How do you deal with friends and family who believe the big lie that led to five deaths at the Capitol?
    If any of my friends or family truly believe the big lie, they haven't admitted as such. The most I've heard from one person is that 'there are questions that need answers' in regards to the election, but when I asked what questions, I didn't get much of a response. 
    As always, they are just "doing their research", "looking at it from all angles", etc.  It's sad that these conspiracy peddlers have convinced their victims that they are the ones that are open minded.  That we are the sheeple, etc.  I do think we need to start thinking about htem as victims and figure out a way to bring friends and family members back, without alienating or shaming them. 
    I agree, berating people is not the way to go about it. 

    With that being said, I don't think there's much any of us can do other than tell the truth, and that won't be enough. Until the GOP tells the truth, it won't make a difference. 
    Most people think all politicians lie so them telling the truth is moot.

    Main thing conservative people want is a secure border, stop giving illegals drivers licenses, and stop giving illegals free stuff whether it be welfare or medical.

    The last one w the free stuff I haven't really got a good answer from research.  At our local hospital they give families without benefits heavily discounted rates that you have to fill out paperwork for.  I have no idea if they give it away for free.  As for welfare I am not sure either as I can't find a definitive answer.
    I don't think that's true. There are elements of this (but don't underestimate how much they don't want US citizens getting "free stuff," either). But the main thing they want is to win. They want to win that football game. They want to beat the liberals/Democrats. This is becoming less and less about the actual impact and more about wins and losses. I don't think the "main" thing conservatives want these days has a lot to do with what happens out in society. What they truly care about can be measured on a score board.

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  • tempo_n_groovetempo_n_groove Posts: 26,278
    OnWis97 said:
    mrussel1 said:

    The thing that worries me about this is that there is already so much anger and feeling of being "left behind" by the changes they see happening. The more they are marginalized, the more they are going to turn (even more than do already) to sources that use that sense of alienization to even further their radicalization. I wouldn't advocate compromising what is important to making the nation better for everyone, but there is a big risk in shunning them and letting the chips fall where they may.  
    I don't disagree, but the question remains, how do you compromise with people who are literally detached from reality? 

    The problem lies with GOP leadership who continues to perpetrate the sense of victim hood. 

    Yesterday, Matt Gaetz, referred to the constitutional mechanism of impeachment, in this case being used against a president who tried to overturn an election and incited a riot that killed a police officer, as the "zenith of cancel culture".

    I don't see how we move forward with people like this. 

    I'm not advocating for anything at the moment, just throwing my hands up in desperation more than anything else. 

    How do you deal with friends and family who believe the big lie that led to five deaths at the Capitol?
    If any of my friends or family truly believe the big lie, they haven't admitted as such. The most I've heard from one person is that 'there are questions that need answers' in regards to the election, but when I asked what questions, I didn't get much of a response. 
    As always, they are just "doing their research", "looking at it from all angles", etc.  It's sad that these conspiracy peddlers have convinced their victims that they are the ones that are open minded.  That we are the sheeple, etc.  I do think we need to start thinking about htem as victims and figure out a way to bring friends and family members back, without alienating or shaming them. 
    I agree, berating people is not the way to go about it. 

    With that being said, I don't think there's much any of us can do other than tell the truth, and that won't be enough. Until the GOP tells the truth, it won't make a difference. 
    Most people think all politicians lie so them telling the truth is moot.

    Main thing conservative people want is a secure border, stop giving illegals drivers licenses, and stop giving illegals free stuff whether it be welfare or medical.

    The last one w the free stuff I haven't really got a good answer from research.  At our local hospital they give families without benefits heavily discounted rates that you have to fill out paperwork for.  I have no idea if they give it away for free.  As for welfare I am not sure either as I can't find a definitive answer.
    I don't think that's true. There are elements of this (but don't underestimate how much they don't want US citizens getting "free stuff," either). But the main thing they want is to win. They want to win that football game. They want to beat the liberals/Democrats. This is becoming less and less about the actual impact and more about wins and losses. I don't think the "main" thing conservatives want these days has a lot to do with what happens out in society. What they truly care about can be measured on a score board.

    If you are referring to politicians I would agree, the people, no.  Spiking the football has become a new phenomenon but the things I highlighted are a hot button for the right.

    Fully expect a caravan to be coming soon and non stop footage of it coming real soon to FOX and OAN.
  • HughFreakingDillonHughFreakingDillon HeadstoniaPosts: 25,607
    OnWis97 said:
    mrussel1 said:

    The thing that worries me about this is that there is already so much anger and feeling of being "left behind" by the changes they see happening. The more they are marginalized, the more they are going to turn (even more than do already) to sources that use that sense of alienization to even further their radicalization. I wouldn't advocate compromising what is important to making the nation better for everyone, but there is a big risk in shunning them and letting the chips fall where they may.  
    I don't disagree, but the question remains, how do you compromise with people who are literally detached from reality? 

    The problem lies with GOP leadership who continues to perpetrate the sense of victim hood. 

    Yesterday, Matt Gaetz, referred to the constitutional mechanism of impeachment, in this case being used against a president who tried to overturn an election and incited a riot that killed a police officer, as the "zenith of cancel culture".

    I don't see how we move forward with people like this. 

    I'm not advocating for anything at the moment, just throwing my hands up in desperation more than anything else. 

    How do you deal with friends and family who believe the big lie that led to five deaths at the Capitol?
    If any of my friends or family truly believe the big lie, they haven't admitted as such. The most I've heard from one person is that 'there are questions that need answers' in regards to the election, but when I asked what questions, I didn't get much of a response. 
    As always, they are just "doing their research", "looking at it from all angles", etc.  It's sad that these conspiracy peddlers have convinced their victims that they are the ones that are open minded.  That we are the sheeple, etc.  I do think we need to start thinking about htem as victims and figure out a way to bring friends and family members back, without alienating or shaming them. 
    I agree, berating people is not the way to go about it. 

    With that being said, I don't think there's much any of us can do other than tell the truth, and that won't be enough. Until the GOP tells the truth, it won't make a difference. 
    Most people think all politicians lie so them telling the truth is moot.

    Main thing conservative people want is a secure border, stop giving illegals drivers licenses, and stop giving illegals free stuff whether it be welfare or medical.

    The last one w the free stuff I haven't really got a good answer from research.  At our local hospital they give families without benefits heavily discounted rates that you have to fill out paperwork for.  I have no idea if they give it away for free.  As for welfare I am not sure either as I can't find a definitive answer.
    I don't think that's true. There are elements of this (but don't underestimate how much they don't want US citizens getting "free stuff," either). But the main thing they want is to win. They want to win that football game. They want to beat the liberals/Democrats. This is becoming less and less about the actual impact and more about wins and losses. I don't think the "main" thing conservatives want these days has a lot to do with what happens out in society. What they truly care about can be measured on a score board.

    i would agree with tempo here. the loudest are usually the most fringe. the vast majority who voted for trump are just people who want less government and lower taxes. 
    (Track 10 of The Headstones' Nickels For Your Nightmares)


  • OnWis97OnWis97 St. Paul, MNPosts: 3,627
    Rand Paul must be in deep, right?  He just seems so invested in "moving on." Trump has something on him and/or he helped plan January 6.
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  • HughFreakingDillonHughFreakingDillon HeadstoniaPosts: 25,607
    or he's eyeing a 2024 run. 
    (Track 10 of The Headstones' Nickels For Your Nightmares)


  • Halifax2TheMaxHalifax2TheMax Posts: 27,327
    OnWis97 said:
    Rand Paul must be in deep, right?  He just seems so invested in "moving on." Trump has something on him and/or he helped plan January 6.
    POOTWH has something on all of them. ALL OF THEM. Randy Paul, Matt Getts Off, Rube, Moscow Mitchy Baby, Lindsey Flimsy Flip Flop Faloozy, Tom I'm A Warrior Hear Me Roar Cotton, McCarthy, Wrestler Molester, ALL OF THEM. And to think Strom Thurmond kept a love child with his black housekeeper secret for decades. Anyone think these guys are squeaky clean and righteous, full of family values?
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  • OnWis97OnWis97 St. Paul, MNPosts: 3,627
    OnWis97 said:
    Rand Paul must be in deep, right?  He just seems so invested in "moving on." Trump has something on him and/or he helped plan January 6.
    POOTWH has something on all of them. ALL OF THEM. Randy Paul, Matt Getts Off, Rube, Moscow Mitchy Baby, Lindsey Flimsy Flip Flop Faloozy, Tom I'm A Warrior Hear Me Roar Cotton, McCarthy, Wrestler Molester, ALL OF THEM. And to think Strom Thurmond kept a love child with his black housekeeper secret for decades. Anyone think these guys are squeaky clean and righteous, full of family values?
    Disappointing.
    1995 Milwaukee
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  • mrussel1mrussel1 Posts: 20,788
    OnWis97 said:
    Rand Paul must be in deep, right?  He just seems so invested in "moving on." Trump has something on him and/or he helped plan January 6.
    Yeah I don't get this guy.  I used to disagree with him,  but thought he had his principles.  But in the last year or two,  he's changed.  Trump was hardly a libertarian. 
  • tempo_n_groovetempo_n_groove Posts: 26,278
    OnWis97 said:
    Rand Paul must be in deep, right?  He just seems so invested in "moving on." Trump has something on him and/or he helped plan January 6.
    POOTWH has something on all of them. ALL OF THEM. Randy Paul, Matt Getts Off, Rube, Moscow Mitchy Baby, Lindsey Flimsy Flip Flop Faloozy, Tom I'm A Warrior Hear Me Roar Cotton, McCarthy, Wrestler Molester, ALL OF THEM. And to think Strom Thurmond kept a love child with his black housekeeper secret for decades. Anyone think these guys are squeaky clean and righteous, full of family values?
    It's cute that you made names for them just like Trump did towards his opposition.
  • Halifax2TheMaxHalifax2TheMax Posts: 27,327
    edited January 27
    OnWis97 said:
    Rand Paul must be in deep, right?  He just seems so invested in "moving on." Trump has something on him and/or he helped plan January 6.
    POOTWH has something on all of them. ALL OF THEM. Randy Paul, Matt Getts Off, Rube, Moscow Mitchy Baby, Lindsey Flimsy Flip Flop Faloozy, Tom I'm A Warrior Hear Me Roar Cotton, McCarthy, Wrestler Molester, ALL OF THEM. And to think Strom Thurmond kept a love child with his black housekeeper secret for decades. Anyone think these guys are squeaky clean and righteous, full of family values?
    It's cute that you made names for them just like Trump did towards his opposition.
    They’re not worthy of being called anything but what I’ve determined to be suitable names. Guess it only bothers you when a lib does it, eh? It’s only been four or so years, longer if you include Turd Blossom, Shrub, Darth Cheney, etc.
    Post edited by Halifax2TheMax on
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  • tempo_n_groovetempo_n_groove Posts: 26,278
    OnWis97 said:
    Rand Paul must be in deep, right?  He just seems so invested in "moving on." Trump has something on him and/or he helped plan January 6.
    POOTWH has something on all of them. ALL OF THEM. Randy Paul, Matt Getts Off, Rube, Moscow Mitchy Baby, Lindsey Flimsy Flip Flop Faloozy, Tom I'm A Warrior Hear Me Roar Cotton, McCarthy, Wrestler Molester, ALL OF THEM. And to think Strom Thurmond kept a love child with his black housekeeper secret for decades. Anyone think these guys are squeaky clean and righteous, full of family values?
    It's cute that you made names for them just like Trump did towards his opposition.
    They’re not worthy of being called anything but what I’ve determined to be suitable names. Guess it only bothers you when a lib does it, eh? It’s only been four or so years, longer if you include Turd Blossom, Shrub, Darth Cheney, etc.
    No I thought he was childish too.  

    It is comical on how much you bashed him and yet use and continue to do so, a move from his playbook.

    I do miss the P-tape reference though.
  • Halifax2TheMaxHalifax2TheMax Posts: 27,327
    OnWis97 said:
    Rand Paul must be in deep, right?  He just seems so invested in "moving on." Trump has something on him and/or he helped plan January 6.
    POOTWH has something on all of them. ALL OF THEM. Randy Paul, Matt Getts Off, Rube, Moscow Mitchy Baby, Lindsey Flimsy Flip Flop Faloozy, Tom I'm A Warrior Hear Me Roar Cotton, McCarthy, Wrestler Molester, ALL OF THEM. And to think Strom Thurmond kept a love child with his black housekeeper secret for decades. Anyone think these guys are squeaky clean and righteous, full of family values?
    It's cute that you made names for them just like Trump did towards his opposition.
    They’re not worthy of being called anything but what I’ve determined to be suitable names. Guess it only bothers you when a lib does it, eh? It’s only been four or so years, longer if you include Turd Blossom, Shrub, Darth Cheney, etc.
    No I thought he was childish too.  

    It is comical on how much you bashed him and yet use and continue to do so, a move from his playbook.

    I do miss the P-tape reference though.
    Is POOTWH not worthy of being bashed? Out of office, out of mind? These fucks are why we’re at where we are. You’re entitled to your opinion but you shouldn’t be trying to cancel me. Speaking of me, I’ll do me and you do you, okay?

    As for the PTape, more likely or less likely it exists? 
    09/15/1998, Mansfield, MA; 08/29/00 08/30/00, Mansfield, MA; 07/02/03, 07/03/03, Mansfield, MA; 09/28/04, 09/29/04, Boston, MA; 09/22/05, Halifax, NS; 05/24/06, 05/25/06, Boston, MA; 07/22/06, 07/23/06, Gorge, WA; 06/29/08, 06/30/08, Mansfield, MA; 08/18/08, O2 London, UK; 10/30/09, 10/31/09, Philadelphia, PA; 05/15/10, Hartford, CT; 05/17/10, Boston, MA; 05/20/10, 05/21/10, NY, NY; 06/22/10, Dublin, IRE; 06/23/10, Northern Ireland; 09/03/11, 09/04/11, Alpine Valley, WI; 09/11/11, 09/12/11, Toronto, Ont; 09/14/11, Ottawa, Ont; 09/15/11, Hamilton, Ont; 07/02/2012, Prague, Czech Republic; 07/04/2012 & 07/05/2012, Berlin, Germany; 07/07/2012, Stockholm, Sweden; 09/30/2012, Missoula, MT; 07/16/2013, London, Ont; 07/19/2013, Chicago, IL; 10/15/2013 & 10/16/2013, Worcester, MA; 10/21/2013 & 10/22/2013, Philadelphia, PA; 10/25/2013, Hartford, CT; 11/29/2013, Portland, OR; 11/30/2013, Spokane, WA; 12/04/2013, Vancouver, BC; 12/06/2013, Seattle, WA; 10/03/2014, St. Louis. MO; 10/22/2014, Denver, CO; 10/26/2015, New York, NY; 04/23/2016, New Orleans, LA; 04/28/2016 & 04/29/2016, Philadelphia, PA; 05/01/2016 & 05/02/2016, New York, NY; 05/08/2016, Ottawa, Ont.; 05/10/2016 & 05/12/2016, Toronto, Ont.; 08/05/2016 & 08/07/2016, Boston, MA; 08/20/2016 & 08/22/2016, Chicago, IL; 07/01/2018, Prague, Czech Republic; 07/03/2018, Krakow, Poland; 07/05/2018, Berlin, Germany; 09/02/2018 & 09/04/2018, Boston, MA;

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