Black Lives Matter

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  • DarthMaeglinDarthMaeglin TorontoPosts: 1,879
    OnWis97 said:
    I’ve been hesitant to speak in this thread for fear of being misunderstood, but since at the moment this is largely a discussion about the phrase “Black Lives Matter”, there’s a thought that’s been running through my head as I’ve followed this discussion.

    Couldn’t at least some of the confusion have been avoided if the phrase was “Black Lives Matter Too”? To me it doesn’t water down any of the message but simply clarifies.

    From my own perspective I agree and sympathize with the BLM movement in the U.S., but feel the problem isn’t so much police brutality (which does happen, to be clear) as it is a matter of economic disparities that force many of the confrontations to occur.

    A friend of mine recently asserted that other minorities have been less discriminated against than Black people throughout North American history, a claim I’m not sure I agree with.

    All that said, I’m incredibly grateful I grew up in the multicultural mecca of Toronto, Canada. As well in my household colour was never anything more than a physical descriptor. Doesn’t mean I can’t learn from what’s currently happening though, so thank you to all in this thread (and elsewhere) for helping me in this.

    Now that the rioting has mostly stopped my only request of those out protesting is to try and be more mindful of the current viral pandemic. It occurred to me that images of the protests might be even more powerful if everyone took care to properly physically distance themselves.

     I hope I’m not being offensive in what and how I’ve said.

    I hope questions like this don't lead to people saying you're being offensive or whatever...it's an honest question. And it's the kind of dialog people should be able to have respectfully and not search for the negative intent or, even if someone is wrong, angrily "educate" them when respectfully doing so will work.

    Language and norms are so important...even when it can be so subtle.  In this case, my gut reaction was the "too" is that it could validate the idea that blacks are "lesser. I mean, don't kill them or anything; their lives matter, too but they are lesser."  I'm not sure that this is how it would be taken. But maybe.  So there's the "what's this say about black lives" and then there's "how will the white nationalists and apolitical whites react?"  And I suppose the "too" would make it harder for them to say "you're saying ours don't?" But they don't really believe that anyway.

    In short...maybe.  My gut reaction is that I like BLM (sans too) because even the negative reaction leads to dialog, as evidenced in this very thread.  But like I said, language is important in ways we don't even think about. The more I think about this, the more BLM and BLM, too seem the same.  But the difference would matter...I'm just not sure how.
    Thanks, that’s a very good point about how “too” could go the other way, it honestly hadn’t occurred to me.
    "The world is full of idiots and I am but one of them."

    10-30-1991 Toronto, Toronto 1 & 2 2016
  • Matts3221Matts3221 Posts: 638
    I would also suggest reading White Fragility , especially if you take offense to BLM  or want to comment how you have black friends , have worked with black people , dated a black person or anything to that type of comment.
  • brianluxbrianlux Moving through All Kinds of Terrain.Posts: 36,998
    Matts3221 said:
    I would also suggest reading White Fragility , especially if you take offense to BLM  or want to comment how you have black friends , have worked with black people , dated a black person or anything to that type of comment.

    So we're not supposed to mention that we have black friends or co-workers?  This sounds like over-the-top PCism.  Yes, no?
    "I believe in the mystery, and I don't want to take it any further than that. Maybe what I mean by that is love."
    -John Densmore











  • hedonisthedonist standing on the edge of foreverPosts: 24,250
    brianlux said:
    I’ve been hesitant to speak in this thread for fear of being misunderstood, but since at the moment this is largely a discussion about the phrase “Black Lives Matter”, there’s a thought that’s been running through my head as I’ve followed this discussion.

    Couldn’t at least some of the confusion have been avoided if the phrase was “Black Lives Matter Too”? To me it doesn’t water down any of the message but simply clarifies.

    From my own perspective I agree and sympathize with the BLM movement in the U.S., but feel the problem isn’t so much police brutality (which does happen, to be clear) as it is a matter of economic disparities that force many of the confrontations to occur.

    A friend of mine recently asserted that other minorities have been less discriminated against than Black people throughout North American history, a claim I’m not sure I agree with.

    All that said, I’m incredibly grateful I grew up in the multicultural mecca of Toronto, Canada. As well in my household colour was never anything more than a physical descriptor. Doesn’t mean I can’t learn from what’s currently happening though, so thank you to all in this thread (and elsewhere) for helping me in this.

    Now that the rioting has mostly stopped my only request of those out protesting is to try and be more mindful of the current viral pandemic. It occurred to me that images of the protests might be even more powerful if everyone took care to properly physically distance themselves.

     I hope I’m not being offensive in what and how I’ve said.

    Good thoughts all, Darth.  I find nothing here offensive in the least. 
    Agreed. Some very good food for thought.

    Thank you, Darth. Don’t wilt in the wet heat!
  • RYMERYME Wisconsin Posts: 1,817
    brianlux said:
    ^^^An interesting discussion about the phrase "Black Lives Matter".

    Personally, I'm not into slogans, labels and the like. I rarely if ever use them.   For me, it's more important to learn as much as reasonably possible about other people and act in a matter that is unoffensive to their beliefs or style or whatever.  And it's important to me to advocate for equality and fairness. 

    I was at a memorial in a home once.  Three of the guys that were friends of the deceased were black, everyone else in attendance was white.   At one point, I notice the black guys were outside by themselves.  I didn't know if they felt ostracized or just preferred to hang by themselves, but I knew one of them pretty well and hadn't had a chance to catch up with him so I thought I go out and say hello while I had the chance.  It wasn't about being PC and showing how cool I could be hanging with the minority dudes, it was about how I liked this one guy anyway and, to be honest, I liked the idea of hanging out with the brothers because they seemed like cool people.  When I went out and started said hello, I think they were surprised that a white dude wanted to hang out with them and before you know it, we were all talking away and having a good time.  I think they thought it was cool that I felt comfortable hanging with them. 

    I'd do the same with other people of color or other nationalities.  It's great rubbing elbows with people who are different. 

    "Black Lives Matter"? Yeah sure, OK.  But learning about and getting to know different kinds of people- that's where it's at for me.
    brianlux said:
    ^^^An interesting discussion about the phrase "Black Lives Matter".

    Personally, I'm not into slogans, labels and the like. I rarely if ever use them.   For me, it's more important to learn as much as reasonably possible about other people and act in a matter that is unoffensive to their beliefs or style or whatever.  And it's important to me to advocate for equality and fairness. 

    I was at a memorial in a home once.  Three of the guys that were friends of the deceased were black, everyone else in attendance was white.   At one point, I notice the black guys were outside by themselves.  I didn't know if they felt ostracized or just preferred to hang by themselves, but I knew one of them pretty well and hadn't had a chance to catch up with him so I thought I go out and say hello while I had the chance.  It wasn't about being PC and showing how cool I could be hanging with the minority dudes, it was about how I liked this one guy anyway and, to be honest, I liked the idea of hanging out with the brothers because they seemed like cool people.  When I went out and started said hello, I think they were surprised that a white dude wanted to hang out with them and before you know it, we were all talking away and having a good time.  I think they thought it was cool that I felt comfortable hanging with them. 

    I'd do the same with other people of color or other nationalities.  It's great rubbing elbows with people who are different. 

    "Black Lives Matter"? Yeah sure, OK.  But learning about and getting to know different kinds of people- that's where it's at for me.
    Well said Brianlux, this is precisely what I was respectfully trying to say befoure.
    Yet some continue to be flippant calling my comments "groovy"
    For me it's not about being cute or groovy.  It's serious stuff.  Hash tags, labels, & virtue signaling just arn't my thing.
    I went to a lot of Chicago area summer basketball camps when I was in high school.  On day 1 of the camps breakfast usually 7:00am, on day one, you don't know anybody,  I'd go to the cafeteria for breakfast get my tray, and I picked a table that had quite a few black guys at it and sit down with them. After a few whad'ups, and "what the hell is that on your plate? and are you going to seriously eat that? Lol,,
    What's your name and where you from, thats cool,  basic breaking the ice stuff,  Then by the time It was time to go to shoot around 7:30 - 8:00AM, , walk over to the gym, already know a few guys by name and start shooting around.  The camp then puts you into teams based on age and skill level and do some drills, and scrimmages and then  Lunch time comes I would sit with them again.  Some good camaraderie "Those mashed potatoes looks like a golf ball" lol. And or "that was one hell of a shot you made on that last time down"
    And by the end of the camp four days later had some good quality acquaintances every time.  It's not always hunky-dory, some guys were naturally a bit skeptical of me at first,  but I enjoy breaking down the walls of distrust, and gaining some of their trust whenever possible.
    Sadly there are always going to be bad apples in the world trying to ruin the good intentions of many.


  • Matts3221Matts3221 Posts: 638
    brianlux said:
    Matts3221 said:
    I would also suggest reading White Fragility , especially if you take offense to BLM  or want to comment how you have black friends , have worked with black people , dated a black person or anything to that type of comment.

    So we're not supposed to mention that we have black friends or co-workers?  This sounds like over-the-top PCism.  Yes, no?
    This is in response to those that say All Lives Matter or dog whistle in another way.

    What I meant by this is that whenever someone gets caught saying something racist on a hot mic or did not know they were accidentally streaming live on Facebook , every single time a person gets caught the following lines are used.


    ”I did not mean to offend anyone with my words “
    ” I have black friends “
    ” I once dated a back person(s)”
    ” I work with black people “
    ” I don’t have racist bone in my body “
    ” it just slipped out”

    just because you have a back friend does not mean your not racist the same way you can love your mom but beat your wife , you would not say in court to the judge “ I love my mom so I cannot possible hate / abuse women “

    So I don’t think it is PC of me to say that. In fact here is a story from just last week with an navel officer using the N word while his wife was disparaged Asians and they got caught.


    https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.capitalgazette.com/education/naval-academy/ac-cn-naval-academy-alumni-racism-20200606-yfva6wcaknhpndfrmmvgzdkt7a-story.html%3foutputType=amp


    guess what they said when it first came out ? I’ll give you a guess ( it’s what I mentioned above ) 

    So I was referencing people saying racist shit and then come out with one of the comments below.

    if you took it as you cannot say you have friends / coworkers that black then I apologize as that was not my intent. Somethings typing out on a phone I may miss a word or two so my bad.
  • brianluxbrianlux Moving through All Kinds of Terrain.Posts: 36,998
    RYME said:
    brianlux said:
    ^^^An interesting discussion about the phrase "Black Lives Matter".

    Personally, I'm not into slogans, labels and the like. I rarely if ever use them.   For me, it's more important to learn as much as reasonably possible about other people and act in a matter that is unoffensive to their beliefs or style or whatever.  And it's important to me to advocate for equality and fairness. 

    I was at a memorial in a home once.  Three of the guys that were friends of the deceased were black, everyone else in attendance was white.   At one point, I notice the black guys were outside by themselves.  I didn't know if they felt ostracized or just preferred to hang by themselves, but I knew one of them pretty well and hadn't had a chance to catch up with him so I thought I go out and say hello while I had the chance.  It wasn't about being PC and showing how cool I could be hanging with the minority dudes, it was about how I liked this one guy anyway and, to be honest, I liked the idea of hanging out with the brothers because they seemed like cool people.  When I went out and started said hello, I think they were surprised that a white dude wanted to hang out with them and before you know it, we were all talking away and having a good time.  I think they thought it was cool that I felt comfortable hanging with them. 

    I'd do the same with other people of color or other nationalities.  It's great rubbing elbows with people who are different. 

    "Black Lives Matter"? Yeah sure, OK.  But learning about and getting to know different kinds of people- that's where it's at for me.
    brianlux said:
    ^^^An interesting discussion about the phrase "Black Lives Matter".

    Personally, I'm not into slogans, labels and the like. I rarely if ever use them.   For me, it's more important to learn as much as reasonably possible about other people and act in a matter that is unoffensive to their beliefs or style or whatever.  And it's important to me to advocate for equality and fairness. 

    I was at a memorial in a home once.  Three of the guys that were friends of the deceased were black, everyone else in attendance was white.   At one point, I notice the black guys were outside by themselves.  I didn't know if they felt ostracized or just preferred to hang by themselves, but I knew one of them pretty well and hadn't had a chance to catch up with him so I thought I go out and say hello while I had the chance.  It wasn't about being PC and showing how cool I could be hanging with the minority dudes, it was about how I liked this one guy anyway and, to be honest, I liked the idea of hanging out with the brothers because they seemed like cool people.  When I went out and started said hello, I think they were surprised that a white dude wanted to hang out with them and before you know it, we were all talking away and having a good time.  I think they thought it was cool that I felt comfortable hanging with them. 

    I'd do the same with other people of color or other nationalities.  It's great rubbing elbows with people who are different. 

    "Black Lives Matter"? Yeah sure, OK.  But learning about and getting to know different kinds of people- that's where it's at for me.
    Well said Brianlux, this is precisely what I was respectfully trying to say befoure.
    Yet some continue to be flippant calling my comments "groovy"
    For me it's not about being cute or groovy.  It's serious stuff.  Hash tags, labels, & virtue signaling just arn't my thing.
    I went to a lot of Chicago area summer basketball camps when I was in high school.  On day 1 of the camps breakfast usually 7:00am, on day one, you don't know anybody,  I'd go to the cafeteria for breakfast get my tray, and I picked a table that had quite a few black guys at it and sit down with them. After a few whad'ups, and "what the hell is that on your plate? and are you going to seriously eat that? Lol,,
    What's your name and where you from, thats cool,  basic breaking the ice stuff,  Then by the time It was time to go to shoot around 7:30 - 8:00AM, , walk over to the gym, already know a few guys by name and start shooting around.  The camp then puts you into teams based on age and skill level and do some drills, and scrimmages and then  Lunch time comes I would sit with them again.  Some good camaraderie "Those mashed potatoes looks like a golf ball" lol. And or "that was one hell of a shot you made on that last time down"
    And by the end of the camp four days later had some good quality acquaintances every time.  It's not always hunky-dory, some guys were naturally a bit skeptical of me at first,  but I enjoy breaking down the walls of distrust, and gaining some of their trust whenever possible.
    Sadly there are always going to be bad apples in the world trying to ruin the good intentions of many.



    Breaking down walls of distrust is always a good thing,, RYME, well done.
    "I believe in the mystery, and I don't want to take it any further than that. Maybe what I mean by that is love."
    -John Densmore











  • brianluxbrianlux Moving through All Kinds of Terrain.Posts: 36,998
    edited June 2020
    Matts3221 said:
    brianlux said:
    Matts3221 said:
    I would also suggest reading White Fragility , especially if you take offense to BLM  or want to comment how you have black friends , have worked with black people , dated a black person or anything to that type of comment.

    So we're not supposed to mention that we have black friends or co-workers?  This sounds like over-the-top PCism.  Yes, no?
    This is in response to those that say All Lives Matter or dog whistle in another way.

    What I meant by this is that whenever someone gets caught saying something racist on a hot mic or did not know they were accidentally streaming live on Facebook , every single time a person gets caught the following lines are used.


    ”I did not mean to offend anyone with my words “
    ” I have black friends “
    ” I once dated a back person(s)”
    ” I work with black people “
    ” I don’t have racist bone in my body “
    ” it just slipped out”

    just because you have a back friend does not mean your not racist the same way you can love your mom but beat your wife , you would not say in court to the judge “ I love my mom so I cannot possible hate / abuse women “

    So I don’t think it is PC of me to say that. In fact here is a story from just last week with an navel officer using the N word while his wife was disparaged Asians and they got caught.


    https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.capitalgazette.com/education/naval-academy/ac-cn-naval-academy-alumni-racism-20200606-yfva6wcaknhpndfrmmvgzdkt7a-story.html%3foutputType=amp


    guess what they said when it first came out ? I’ll give you a guess ( it’s what I mentioned above ) 

    So I was referencing people saying racist shit and then come out with one of the comments below.

    if you took it as you cannot say you have friends / coworkers that black then I apologize as that was not my intent. Somethings typing out on a phone I may miss a word or two so my bad.
    I'll say this as a generalization and a reflection of my feelings, Matts, not about you specifically:
    I get it about how some racists will say "I have black (or Asian or Hispanic, etc.) friends" and are still truly racist.  But what I don't buy into is saying that anyone who doesn't strictly follow PC rules is a racist (or whatever).  I'm tired of people being judged by such strict rules.  I'm tired of people scolding others for good intentions that may be a bit misled instead of using thoughtful and kind words to educate (not that one needs to do this with an obvious overt racist).  I'm tired of people who are so self-inflated and self righteous that they can't take the effort to try to engage in constructive dialog but, rather, choose to lash out.  You this this kind of thing happening all over the place-  Facebook, Twitter, videos, in the media.  Me, I still have a lot to learn.  Educate me, don't berate me. 
    Post edited by brianlux on
    "I believe in the mystery, and I don't want to take it any further than that. Maybe what I mean by that is love."
    -John Densmore











  • hedonisthedonist standing on the edge of foreverPosts: 24,250
    One of the things I loved about my father was that he never gave me the old "Because I said so!" routine.  If I did something wrong or disappointing (in his eyes), he'd explain to me why it was so.  He also respected me even in our most heated exchanges.  It was neither personal nor sanctimonious.

    (Goddammit, I miss him!)

    Conversely, I had an intelligent but misogynistic history teacher who would slap his students with a chalky board eraser.  I was never subjected to his ways but wonder of its and similar effects, if any, on my classmates.
  • brianluxbrianlux Moving through All Kinds of Terrain.Posts: 36,998
    hedonist said:
    One of the things I loved about my father was that he never gave me the old "Because I said so!" routine.  If I did something wrong or disappointing (in his eyes), he'd explain to me why it was so.  He also respected me even in our most heated exchanges.  It was neither personal nor sanctimonious.

    (Goddammit, I miss him!)

    Conversely, I had an intelligent but misogynistic history teacher who would slap his students with a chalky board eraser.  I was never subjected to his ways but wonder of its and similar effects, if any, on my classmates.

    Good man!  (I miss my Pop too!)

    Bummer about the shitty teacher.
    "I believe in the mystery, and I don't want to take it any further than that. Maybe what I mean by that is love."
    -John Densmore











  • josevolutionjosevolution Posts: 25,479
    https://twitter.com/aprildryan/status/1270433974934999041?s=21
    lol Miller writing speech on Race relations you can’t make this up , this administration is from hell fuck we are doomed!
    jesus greets me looks just like me ....
  • josevolutionjosevolution Posts: 25,479
    Protest here in Smithtown are impressive I can hear them 1mile away chanting, drumming! I’m blown away by this my daughter just got home from the March! 
    jesus greets me looks just like me ....
  • cutzcutz Posts: 10,550
    edited June 2020
    Post edited by cutz on
  • lastexitlondonlastexitlondon Posts: 8,762
    Matts3221 said:
    Im trying to learn what is even going on . So here on this forum is where  im learning there are these people.  I may seem stupid but im not.  I just would  never see this kind of video because  i dont have  it coming into my phone.  Is what i mean. I see why the  phrase  is  angering people now.
    Its what  these idiots are doing . So who knowingly  would be like that on this  forum.
    I dont  know of anyone on here  acting  like that im sure we all agree here.


    You are a good person Rob. I am not shaming you at all for what you said but will just input my two cents , I feel we are very connected so I don't think you will take any of this the wrong way.

    You don't live in the US.

    All Lives Matter has been the cat call of most people who refuse to accept that the united states was built on slaves and continued racism to this day. Every aspect from police to jail to school to how your life will go is in a very large part played on your skin color.

    To me All Lives Matter is the rally cry for those that don't want to admit our mistakes and our systemic racisms. Almost like an alcoholic can never get help if they don't first admit the problem , I find those that chant all lives matter over black lives matter to not admit the problem they are in denial.   

    Growing up in the an area that is 98% white you tend to not see what was happening the world , as an idiot teen I  know I used the N word as slang not as racist  ( that said there was not excuse for me using it even if I thought it was just a cool word to use , if it was 2020 and I was on tape my life would be over) I have learned and moved on to try to help the cause.

    I think if everyone took a step back we would see we all have our biases in this world , how can we not they have been hammered into our brains since birth , we can only learn , accept our past mistake and move forward.

    African Americans in this country must feel crazy because they have people telling them that racisms is a think of the past and we need to move on , they know this is not true , the people saying it know it is not true and it is basically gaslighting the whole black community.

    I think some of the cartoons or meme's people post make good points that others can possible understand.

    However I think some thought of you as a redneck racist when you posted that.

    I would highly suggest to everyone to watch John Oliver's last week tonight from Sunday June 7th ( Free on YouTube ) , if after watching all of it you still think all lives matter over black lives matter than you are an asshole. Sorry but its true , until Black Lives Matter in the US then All Lives Do not matter.

    Just my two cents.

    Thank  you matt. 
    Yeah im english so i have no idea what words are  used  in usa. But  i do know  england has the  most appalling  track record  with slavery and many bad acts of racism  and  i as a human have never been able to sit with that. As a young man i would state im ashamed to be english . This country  has raped so many other lands i dont and didn't  want a part in that. I would wish i was from somewhere else  as a teen.
    Just goes to show ignorance  works both ways if someone "thought " i was a redneck from london. 
    Or a racist.  How wrong they could be.
    In my life playing sports and work ive never looked  at anyone other  than equal. A team mate. An opponent.  Or a work mate or just a friend. And actions of people here  maybe different in some parts. There are acts of racism ive seen on tv .im glad i have not got facebook or any of those poisons. And its another good reason  not to.
    What people think  is up to them. I say love eachother full stop thats my message as i want to be seen and known. 

    brixton 93
    astoria 06
    albany 06
    hartford 06
    reading 06
    barcelona 06
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    this song is meant to be called i got shit,itshould be called i got shit tickets-hartford 06 -
  • lastexitlondonlastexitlondon Posts: 8,762
    hedonist said:
    One of the things I loved about my father was that he never gave me the old "Because I said so!" routine.  If I did something wrong or disappointing (in his eyes), he'd explain to me why it was so.  He also respected me even in our most heated exchanges.  It was neither personal nor sanctimonious.

    (Goddammit, I miss him!)

    Conversely, I had an intelligent but misogynistic history teacher who would slap his students with a chalky board eraser.  I was never subjected to his ways but wonder of its and similar effects, if any, on my classmates.
    This is the same as me but my mum. And i had  that teacher  who  did that also.
    I did however have a racist dad who left us when we were  6 and 8.  I grew up to then know him and thought  thank fuck my mum taught  us. She never had a bad word for anyone  and we were free to be friends  with  anyone.
    If my dad had been around we would have had racism pumped  into our lives like his other 2 kids he went on to have and for  that god bless mum.  
    brixton 93
    astoria 06
    albany 06
    hartford 06
    reading 06
    barcelona 06
    paris 06
    wembley 07
    dusseldorf 07
    nijmegen 07

    this song is meant to be called i got shit,itshould be called i got shit tickets-hartford 06 -
  • FiveBelowFiveBelow Lubbock, TXPosts: 1,002
    Protest here in Smithtown are impressive I can hear them 1mile away chanting, drumming! I’m blown away by this my daughter just got home from the March! 
    I’ve been paying attention to your take on the coronavirus situation since you are in an area that has been hit hard and share more of an insiders view working in a hospital. I understand the importance of this movement, but are you or your coworkers concerned these protests may inadvertently derail all of the progress that has been made on the virus front?
  • brianluxbrianlux Moving through All Kinds of Terrain.Posts: 36,998
    JW269453 said:
    Protest here in Smithtown are impressive I can hear them 1mile away chanting, drumming! I’m blown away by this my daughter just got home from the March! 
    I’ve been paying attention to your take on the coronavirus situation since you are in an area that has been hit hard and share more of an insiders view working in a hospital. I understand the importance of this movement, but are you or your coworkers concerned these protests may inadvertently derail all of the progress that has been made on the virus front?

    Good question, JW.  josevolution is one of the perfect people here to ask. 

    And j., I love what you do, both professionally related to COVID and supportive related to BLM and current protest movement.  Here they are, two of the biggest events any of us have lived through and yet they present a collision course.  I've tried to see it from every  angle but they never quite mesh. 

    That's a tough one- will look forward to what your thoughts are, j.

    "I believe in the mystery, and I don't want to take it any further than that. Maybe what I mean by that is love."
    -John Densmore











  • josevolutionjosevolution Posts: 25,479
    JW269453 said:
    Protest here in Smithtown are impressive I can hear them 1mile away chanting, drumming! I’m blown away by this my daughter just got home from the March! 
    I’ve been paying attention to your take on the coronavirus situation since you are in an area that has been hit hard and share more of an insiders view working in a hospital. I understand the importance of this movement, but are you or your coworkers concerned these protests may inadvertently derail all of the progress that has been made on the virus front?
    Yes it’s something we all talk about at work! My black coworkers all feel it’s necessary to be voicing themselves by protesting in the streets , and yes they feel that this could set us back but they say their is no other way to get anything done to fix the current police tactics in place! Something had to be done, so now we wait and see if there will be a spike following these last two weeks of protests, my daughter marched yesterday wore her mask her friends did too as most of the protesters did..
    jesus greets me looks just like me ....
  • josevolutionjosevolution Posts: 25,479
    Things have calmed down a lot as far as new admissions and patients being vented! All good news I hope we don’t see an uptick in new infections but everyone is still very focused on social distancing, infections control made rounds last week looking at work spaces in all Dept of hospital! My office is ok our work spaces are close to 6’ apart but other offices have been told they won’t be allowed to keep the same work spaces, folks are being told they will work from home for the foreseeable future till they get more office space for them!
    jesus greets me looks just like me ....
  • FiveBelowFiveBelow Lubbock, TXPosts: 1,002
    edited June 2020
    JW269453 said:
    Protest here in Smithtown are impressive I can hear them 1mile away chanting, drumming! I’m blown away by this my daughter just got home from the March! 
    I’ve been paying attention to your take on the coronavirus situation since you are in an area that has been hit hard and share more of an insiders view working in a hospital. I understand the importance of this movement, but are you or your coworkers concerned these protests may inadvertently derail all of the progress that has been made on the virus front?
    Yes it’s something we all talk about at work! My black coworkers all feel it’s necessary to be voicing themselves by protesting in the streets , and yes they feel that this could set us back but they say their is no other way to get anything done to fix the current police tactics in place! Something had to be done, so now we wait and see if there will be a spike following these last two weeks of protests, my daughter marched yesterday wore her mask her friends did too as most of the protesters did..
    Thanks for the insight, Jose. Hopefully 2021 will bring lasting positive movement concerning both. 2020 has been one for the ages and we are only halfway through it...
    Post edited by FiveBelow on
  • josevolutionjosevolution Posts: 25,479
    JW269453 said:
    JW269453 said:
    Protest here in Smithtown are impressive I can hear them 1mile away chanting, drumming! I’m blown away by this my daughter just got home from the March! 
    I’ve been paying attention to your take on the coronavirus situation since you are in an area that has been hit hard and share more of an insiders view working in a hospital. I understand the importance of this movement, but are you or your coworkers concerned these protests may inadvertently derail all of the progress that has been made on the virus front?
    Yes it’s something we all talk about at work! My black coworkers all feel it’s necessary to be voicing themselves by protesting in the streets , and yes they feel that this could set us back but they say their is no other way to get anything done to fix the current police tactics in place! Something had to be done, so now we wait and see if there will be a spike following these last two weeks of protests, my daughter marched yesterday wore her mask her friends did too as most of the protesters did..
    Thanks for the insight, Jose. Hopefully 2021 will bring lasting positive movement concerning both. 2020 has been one for the ages and we are only halfway through it...
    I hope your words come true, 2020 has just been awful by the way everyone I’ve talked too has stated they do not support rioting and wrecking neighborhood businesses at all..

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  • Matts3221 said:
    Im trying to learn what is even going on . So here on this forum is where  im learning there are these people.  I may seem stupid but im not.  I just would  never see this kind of video because  i dont have  it coming into my phone.  Is what i mean. I see why the  phrase  is  angering people now.
    Its what  these idiots are doing . So who knowingly  would be like that on this  forum.
    I dont  know of anyone on here  acting  like that im sure we all agree here.


    You are a good person Rob. I am not shaming you at all for what you said but will just input my two cents , I feel we are very connected so I don't think you will take any of this the wrong way.

    You don't live in the US.

    All Lives Matter has been the cat call of most people who refuse to accept that the united states was built on slaves and continued racism to this day. Every aspect from police to jail to school to how your life will go is in a very large part played on your skin color.

    To me All Lives Matter is the rally cry for those that don't want to admit our mistakes and our systemic racisms. Almost like an alcoholic can never get help if they don't first admit the problem , I find those that chant all lives matter over black lives matter to not admit the problem they are in denial.   

    Growing up in the an area that is 98% white you tend to not see what was happening the world , as an idiot teen I  know I used the N word as slang not as racist  ( that said there was not excuse for me using it even if I thought it was just a cool word to use , if it was 2020 and I was on tape my life would be over) I have learned and moved on to try to help the cause.

    I think if everyone took a step back we would see we all have our biases in this world , how can we not they have been hammered into our brains since birth , we can only learn , accept our past mistake and move forward.

    African Americans in this country must feel crazy because they have people telling them that racisms is a think of the past and we need to move on , they know this is not true , the people saying it know it is not true and it is basically gaslighting the whole black community.

    I think some of the cartoons or meme's people post make good points that others can possible understand.

    However I think some thought of you as a redneck racist when you posted that.

    I would highly suggest to everyone to watch John Oliver's last week tonight from Sunday June 7th ( Free on YouTube ) , if after watching all of it you still think all lives matter over black lives matter than you are an asshole. Sorry but its true , until Black Lives Matter in the US then All Lives Do not matter.

    Just my two cents.


    I'm from East London, England and "All lives matter" has been the calling card of late of anyone who is racist, xenophobic, right leaning, far right, etc. So it's definitely a thing here in England and it's not showing any signs of stopping. There are some serious people heading to London this Saturday who are all connected via football hooliganism (soccer) and are meeting up in Whitehall to "protect" the monument of Winston Churchill after it was vandalised in the BLM protests in the weekend just gone. The hooligans, who are all connected to right-wing movements think Churchill is the greatest Brit ever and a patriot because we won World War 2. The more savvy, clued up members of the public know that Churchill was a pretty racist man and doesn't deserve all of the plaudits he gets. Anyway, BLM is peacefully protesting again this weekend but I have a feeling it's going to get a bit nasty and there will be some clashes. 

    This does all stem from the right being a bit thick and thinking that "Black lives matter" is some kind of war cry to initiate a world takeover when it couldn't be further from the truth. All is wanted is an equal footing in the world and not to be murdered by the police. Not that hard really......but apparently it is when the world is built on maintaining the white status quo.

    I apologise for some of my earlier posts in this thread which may have been a little short. I'm so sick of seeing "all lives matter" from the same braindead xenophobes that seeing it on a Pearl Jam forum really got my back up. The last place I expected to see it. I know Lastexitlondon spoke with his daughter and thats so great.
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  • brianluxbrianlux Moving through All Kinds of Terrain.Posts: 36,998
    Matts3221 said:
    Im trying to learn what is even going on . So here on this forum is where  im learning there are these people.  I may seem stupid but im not.  I just would  never see this kind of video because  i dont have  it coming into my phone.  Is what i mean. I see why the  phrase  is  angering people now.
    Its what  these idiots are doing . So who knowingly  would be like that on this  forum.
    I dont  know of anyone on here  acting  like that im sure we all agree here.


    You are a good person Rob. I am not shaming you at all for what you said but will just input my two cents , I feel we are very connected so I don't think you will take any of this the wrong way.

    You don't live in the US.

    All Lives Matter has been the cat call of most people who refuse to accept that the united states was built on slaves and continued racism to this day. Every aspect from police to jail to school to how your life will go is in a very large part played on your skin color.

    To me All Lives Matter is the rally cry for those that don't want to admit our mistakes and our systemic racisms. Almost like an alcoholic can never get help if they don't first admit the problem , I find those that chant all lives matter over black lives matter to not admit the problem they are in denial.   

    Growing up in the an area that is 98% white you tend to not see what was happening the world , as an idiot teen I  know I used the N word as slang not as racist  ( that said there was not excuse for me using it even if I thought it was just a cool word to use , if it was 2020 and I was on tape my life would be over) I have learned and moved on to try to help the cause.

    I think if everyone took a step back we would see we all have our biases in this world , how can we not they have been hammered into our brains since birth , we can only learn , accept our past mistake and move forward.

    African Americans in this country must feel crazy because they have people telling them that racisms is a think of the past and we need to move on , they know this is not true , the people saying it know it is not true and it is basically gaslighting the whole black community.

    I think some of the cartoons or meme's people post make good points that others can possible understand.

    However I think some thought of you as a redneck racist when you posted that.

    I would highly suggest to everyone to watch John Oliver's last week tonight from Sunday June 7th ( Free on YouTube ) , if after watching all of it you still think all lives matter over black lives matter than you are an asshole. Sorry but its true , until Black Lives Matter in the US then All Lives Do not matter.

    Just my two cents.


    I'm from East London, England and "All lives matter" has been the calling card of late of anyone who is racist, xenophobic, right leaning, far right, etc. So it's definitely a thing here in England and it's not showing any signs of stopping. There are some serious people heading to London this Saturday who are all connected via football hooliganism (soccer) and are meeting up in Whitehall to "protect" the monument of Winston Churchill after it was vandalised in the BLM protests in the weekend just gone. The hooligans, who are all connected to right-wing movements think Churchill is the greatest Brit ever and a patriot because we won World War 2. The more savvy, clued up members of the public know that Churchill was a pretty racist man and doesn't deserve all of the plaudits he gets. Anyway, BLM is peacefully protesting again this weekend but I have a feeling it's going to get a bit nasty and there will be some clashes. 

    This does all stem from the right being a bit thick and thinking that "Black lives matter" is some kind of war cry to initiate a world takeover when it couldn't be further from the truth. All is wanted is an equal footing in the world and not to be murdered by the police. Not that hard really......but apparently it is when the world is built on maintaining the white status quo.

    I apologise for some of my earlier posts in this thread which may have been a little short. I'm so sick of seeing "all lives matter" from the same braindead xenophobes that seeing it on a Pearl Jam forum really got my back up. The last place I expected to see it. I know Lastexitlondon spoke with his daughter and thats so great.

    Your frustration with the far right, xenophobia, and racism is well taken.  I think most here would agree with it.  I'm almost sure of that.  I'm also almost sure there are no outright, blatant racists here.  I think we're all generally, to one degree or another, preaching to the choir.

    As far as things like "Black Lives Matter", "No Justice, No Peace" and the like, I more and more shy away from slogans.  I began leaning that way several years ago when I heard George Carlin talk about how "bumper stickers [or slogans] are for the symbol minded". Personally, I don't find them very useful and sometimes they are even meaningless or contradictory.  For example, today I received an email that included this:

    "No Justice, No Peace - Last week, 1000s of peaceful rallies were held all over the United States..." 

    ...and then went on to post an announcement about such a rally to be held in our town this Friday.  So my question is, if there is no peace without justice, why are you calling for peaceful rallies?  Did you even consider that you might be contradicting yourself with what you said?  I know your intentions are good, but your words don't add up.

    To my way of thinking, it makes more sense for each of us to look within ourselves and do what makes most sense and support the notions of fairness, equality and justice by how we live our lives, not by the slogans we repeat.  Talk is cheap.  Critical thinking, healthy skepticism, and changing ones behavior for the good are the real work that create change.

    "I believe in the mystery, and I don't want to take it any further than that. Maybe what I mean by that is love."
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  • brianluxbrianlux Moving through All Kinds of Terrain.Posts: 36,998
    Not surprised to hear about this incident in lily white El Dorado Hills.  OH MY GOD, CARLOADS OF BLACKS PEOPLE!  Sad.

    "I believe in the mystery, and I don't want to take it any further than that. Maybe what I mean by that is love."
    -John Densmore











  • brianlux said:
    Matts3221 said:
    Im trying to learn what is even going on . So here on this forum is where  im learning there are these people.  I may seem stupid but im not.  I just would  never see this kind of video because  i dont have  it coming into my phone.  Is what i mean. I see why the  phrase  is  angering people now.
    Its what  these idiots are doing . So who knowingly  would be like that on this  forum.
    I dont  know of anyone on here  acting  like that im sure we all agree here.


    You are a good person Rob. I am not shaming you at all for what you said but will just input my two cents , I feel we are very connected so I don't think you will take any of this the wrong way.

    You don't live in the US.

    All Lives Matter has been the cat call of most people who refuse to accept that the united states was built on slaves and continued racism to this day. Every aspect from police to jail to school to how your life will go is in a very large part played on your skin color.

    To me All Lives Matter is the rally cry for those that don't want to admit our mistakes and our systemic racisms. Almost like an alcoholic can never get help if they don't first admit the problem , I find those that chant all lives matter over black lives matter to not admit the problem they are in denial.   

    Growing up in the an area that is 98% white you tend to not see what was happening the world , as an idiot teen I  know I used the N word as slang not as racist  ( that said there was not excuse for me using it even if I thought it was just a cool word to use , if it was 2020 and I was on tape my life would be over) I have learned and moved on to try to help the cause.

    I think if everyone took a step back we would see we all have our biases in this world , how can we not they have been hammered into our brains since birth , we can only learn , accept our past mistake and move forward.

    African Americans in this country must feel crazy because they have people telling them that racisms is a think of the past and we need to move on , they know this is not true , the people saying it know it is not true and it is basically gaslighting the whole black community.

    I think some of the cartoons or meme's people post make good points that others can possible understand.

    However I think some thought of you as a redneck racist when you posted that.

    I would highly suggest to everyone to watch John Oliver's last week tonight from Sunday June 7th ( Free on YouTube ) , if after watching all of it you still think all lives matter over black lives matter than you are an asshole. Sorry but its true , until Black Lives Matter in the US then All Lives Do not matter.

    Just my two cents.


    I'm from East London, England and "All lives matter" has been the calling card of late of anyone who is racist, xenophobic, right leaning, far right, etc. So it's definitely a thing here in England and it's not showing any signs of stopping. There are some serious people heading to London this Saturday who are all connected via football hooliganism (soccer) and are meeting up in Whitehall to "protect" the monument of Winston Churchill after it was vandalised in the BLM protests in the weekend just gone. The hooligans, who are all connected to right-wing movements think Churchill is the greatest Brit ever and a patriot because we won World War 2. The more savvy, clued up members of the public know that Churchill was a pretty racist man and doesn't deserve all of the plaudits he gets. Anyway, BLM is peacefully protesting again this weekend but I have a feeling it's going to get a bit nasty and there will be some clashes. 

    This does all stem from the right being a bit thick and thinking that "Black lives matter" is some kind of war cry to initiate a world takeover when it couldn't be further from the truth. All is wanted is an equal footing in the world and not to be murdered by the police. Not that hard really......but apparently it is when the world is built on maintaining the white status quo.

    I apologise for some of my earlier posts in this thread which may have been a little short. I'm so sick of seeing "all lives matter" from the same braindead xenophobes that seeing it on a Pearl Jam forum really got my back up. The last place I expected to see it. I know Lastexitlondon spoke with his daughter and thats so great.

    Your frustration with the far right, xenophobia, and racism is well taken.  I think most here would agree with it.  I'm almost sure of that.  I'm also almost sure there are no outright, blatant racists here.  I think we're all generally, to one degree or another, preaching to the choir.

    As far as things like "Black Lives Matter", "No Justice, No Peace" and the like, I more and more shy away from slogans.  I began leaning that way several years ago when I heard George Carlin talk about how "bumper stickers [or slogans] are for the symbol minded". Personally, I don't find them very useful and sometimes they are even meaningless or contradictory.  For example, today I received an email that included this:

    "No Justice, No Peace - Last week, 1000s of peaceful rallies were held all over the United States..." 

    ...and then went on to post an announcement about such a rally to be held in our town this Friday.  So my question is, if there is no peace without justice, why are you calling for peaceful rallies?  Did you even consider that you might be contradicting yourself with what you said?  I know your intentions are good, but your words don't add up.

    To my way of thinking, it makes more sense for each of us to look within ourselves and do what makes most sense and support the notions of fairness, equality and justice by how we live our lives, not by the slogans we repeat.  Talk is cheap.  Critical thinking, healthy skepticism, and changing ones behavior for the good are the real work that create change.

    I hear you on all of that. Personally I think the reductive nature of the words "black lives matter" hasn't done much to appease the contrary viewpoints. That said they could have called it "black people who are just asking for some fairness in the world" (snappy right) and I still think it would have antagonised those with differing view points. Whatever it is or isn't called, it won't sit well with people who fundamentally disagree with equality and fairness in the world.

    That said, how do you unite people if it's not under a common banner/slogan? I agree that in the long term it isn't a viable title, but the only way to move into critical thinking, opening dialogue, and starting to make any meaningful change is under a single banner that people can get behind. The statues of slave masters being taken down right now is testament to this and is an incredible thing to see. We have seen one removed forcibly in the UK and one removed by a local council with more to come soon. This wouldn't have come about with dialogue. Sometimes a bit of old fashioned protesting and not ever giving in works a treat. Look at the French....they love a protest. It's pretty much the national pasttime. Also for the black community, they have tried dialogue for hundreds of years and it's got them no-where. i am genuinely in awe and loving whats happening right now and hopefully this feeling or possible "real change" continues as it's long, long overdue.
    Sealed vinyl is bad vinyl.
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  • BentleyspopBentleyspop Craft Beer Brewery, ColoradoPosts: 9,652
  • oftenreadingoftenreading Victoria, BCPosts: 12,699
    OnWis97 said:
    I’ve been hesitant to speak in this thread for fear of being misunderstood, but since at the moment this is largely a discussion about the phrase “Black Lives Matter”, there’s a thought that’s been running through my head as I’ve followed this discussion.

    Couldn’t at least some of the confusion have been avoided if the phrase was “Black Lives Matter Too”? To me it doesn’t water down any of the message but simply clarifies.

    From my own perspective I agree and sympathize with the BLM movement in the U.S., but feel the problem isn’t so much police brutality (which does happen, to be clear) as it is a matter of economic disparities that force many of the confrontations to occur.

    A friend of mine recently asserted that other minorities have been less discriminated against than Black people throughout North American history, a claim I’m not sure I agree with.

    All that said, I’m incredibly grateful I grew up in the multicultural mecca of Toronto, Canada. As well in my household colour was never anything more than a physical descriptor. Doesn’t mean I can’t learn from what’s currently happening though, so thank you to all in this thread (and elsewhere) for helping me in this.

    Now that the rioting has mostly stopped my only request of those out protesting is to try and be more mindful of the current viral pandemic. It occurred to me that images of the protests might be even more powerful if everyone took care to properly physically distance themselves.

     I hope I’m not being offensive in what and how I’ve said.

    I hope questions like this don't lead to people saying you're being offensive or whatever...it's an honest question. And it's the kind of dialog people should be able to have respectfully and not search for the negative intent or, even if someone is wrong, angrily "educate" them when respectfully doing so will work.

    Language and norms are so important...even when it can be so subtle.  In this case, my gut reaction was the "too" is that it could validate the idea that blacks are "lesser. I mean, don't kill them or anything; their lives matter, too but they are lesser."  I'm not sure that this is how it would be taken. But maybe.  So there's the "what's this say about black lives" and then there's "how will the white nationalists and apolitical whites react?"  And I suppose the "too" would make it harder for them to say "you're saying ours don't?" But they don't really believe that anyway.

    In short...maybe.  My gut reaction is that I like BLM (sans too) because even the negative reaction leads to dialog, as evidenced in this very thread.  But like I said, language is important in ways we don't even think about. The more I think about this, the more BLM and BLM, too seem the same.  But the difference would matter...I'm just not sure how.

    Black Lives Matter is a strong statement, whereas Black Lives Matter Too is much weaker and tentative. Adding the "too" makes it almost apologetic, kind of like "hey guys, we matter too, you know". It weaken what is otherwise a simple, direct, strong message. There's no need for the "too" as a qualifier, because honestly there is no reasonable basis for anyone to object to the simple statement that black lives matter. You're definitely correct that it leads to a lot of discussion. It's pretty interesting to see how and why people argue against it. 
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  • OnWis97OnWis97 St. Paul, MNPosts: 4,164
    brianlux said:
    Not surprised to hear about this incident in lily white El Dorado Hills.  OH MY GOD, CARLOADS OF BLACKS PEOPLE!  Sad.


    Suckers...those people were obviously there to distract them from the immigrant caravan coming...
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  • sheckyshecky San FranciscoPosts: 1,268

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